The Importance of Training

[W.R.Buchanan]

I just returned from 4 days at Front Sight Training Academy. I shoot a lot better than when I left last Tuesday! :mrgreen:

I tend to get a little preachy on this subject but that is because I know what I am talking about and want all my shooting buddies to be really good shooters. You actually have to work at this! it is not just a gift from above.

Unless you have been to a Real Shooting School or are recent Military, you are behind the curve on your training. You do not get better everyday, you get worse!

Things are changing everyday, and this is not a case where keeping up with the Jones' can be ignored, it is a survival issue. Surprisingly Criminals are getting better as well. Video games and the like do have an effect. Hollywood's portrayal of gun fights is getting better all the time and some of them the "Stars" Gun Handling is getting pretty professional looking. Mainly because they are getting training from the best out there so they look believable to even people who know. They just don't erase this training after the movie is over! Most of them get more and shoot regularly.

I know for a FACT, that Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt have received right at 15 times the amount of training I have gotten and their gun handling shows it. I know this for a FACT because I know not only the people who train them personally, but the people who supply their weapons as well. I assure you that you would not live thru a burglary attempt on their home. She is more vicious that he is by a factor of about 10! He might not shoot you on sight, but she would! No If's or Buts! They are very comparable to medium to high end competition shooters.

If you are a CCW person or LEO and carry a gun everyday, you owe it to yourself and the people who surround to get an intense training stint at least every year. Twice would be better! And by that, I don't mean going to the range every once in a while and popping off a few rounds and acting like you are good.

The advantage of attending a school like Front Sight is that you get Standardized Training over 2-4 days with proven success in bettering you as a shooter and increasing your awareness of your surroundings as well. This particular outfit runs 80,000 people a year thru their training programs. They have dealt with every conceivable personality and level of skill out there. I have been a member for 12 years.

Last Wednesday and Thursday, I attended a 2 day Pistol Skill Builder course. I have attended at least one of these courses every year for the last 10 years. I fired right at 400 rounds thru my Glock 21SF in .45 ACP in two days. This is more than I fire in an entire year of shooting my local competitions, and the first time I have drilled this particular gun. I like it a lot!

The end results were,,, I improved my Presentation, my Sight Alignment and Trigger Control, as well as general gun handling and Malfunction Clearance techniques. All necessary skills and I am pretty good,,, right now. In a few months,,, probably not as much.

Just to give you an idea of the normal course of fire here's the test.

Controlled Pair to the Thoracic Cavity at 3 yards in 1.5 seconds.

Controlled Pair to the TC at 5 yards in 1.7 seconds. Sometimes followed with an Untimed Head Shot simulating a Failure to Stop.

Controlled Pair to the TC at 7 yards in 1.9 seconds.

Controlled pair to the TC at 10 yards in 2.1 seconds.

Controlled Pair to the TC at 15 yards in 2.5 seconds.

Designated head shot into the head box at 7 yards in 1.9 seconds. 5 times in a row.

All of these shots are performed from the Holster under a Concealment Vest. The target turns into you and you draw and fire, and then the target turns away. The target stays visible for the allotted time only.

Deductions from your score are -3pts for outside the primary areas, chest and face, and -5pts for off the entire body.

I dropped 15 points by having 5 shots out of the 25 out of the designated zones but still on the body. All of my shots would have resulted in eventual death of the target. 3 were head shots that were wide left. 2 out side the chest box. I say this because a .45 has a bigger influence on the target than a 9 mm does. Gotta love the big holes.

This test is not easy! Out of 34 people in the class I was down about 5-6th.
I shot pretty well and it was my best score yet. Last time was 18. So I improved! [smilie=p:

My whole point here and what 99% of the people don't understand is that under stress of a gun fight the best you can hope to do is 50% of your best training day! And NO you are not going to think your way thru the situation. 99% of gun fights last 2-4 seconds!

I shot 80% so I'm looking at being a 40% shooter when :dung_hits_fan:. I can work with this if I have to.

For the people who only shot 50% or below they are looking at entering a gun fight at 25% or less,,,, or a more properly as a 3+:1 underdog! :holysheep Running is your better option!

If you carry a gun, this is why you need this training!

I can go on, but I welcome your comments on this.

Oh,,, I then did a 2 day Rifle Class with essentially the same course of fire but from 15-200 yards.

My purpose for attending this course was to drill my AR 15 which is my least proficient system.

I have lots of work to do there as with that Weapons System, I suck outright! Not so much the shooting part,, I can hit with it,,,, but running the gun is the problem. Lots to effectively running AR's and much more so than Mini14's or My Kel-Tec.

Guys there is NO SUBSTITUTE FOR PROFESSIONAL TRAINING!

Did I mention that these classes are actually a lot of fun also?

Shooting 400 rounds in 2 days is always fun!

As I said above I can go on and hopefully this thread will convince anyone who is a naysayer that this stuff is worth while. I personally think it should be mandatory for CCW carriers, but I tend to be preachy on the "Competence Subject." [smilie=w:

Randy

[boltaction308]

Nicely said

Please provide a link to t
his training

[AggieEE]

Very interesting. Thanks!

[garym1a2]

You need to practice more outside of class. 400 rounds in two days with training is good. 400 rounds in the past year is not enough.

At least you have the world's finest combat pisteol in the Glock21SF.

[W.R.Buchanan]

My original post was not intended to be a plug for Front Sight. it was intended to kick people in the butt and get them to get trained by some dedicated training facility.

Others are Thunder Ranch in Oregon, Gunsite, in AZ also the Sig Sauer facility back east, and there are plenty of others being ran by highly trained ex Military and Law Enforcement Personnel.

There are shooting schools for just about any type of shooting you may be interested in. There are schools for Long Range Rifle, Bird Shooting, Trap Skeet and Sporting Clays, not to mention CMP classes and shoots designed to familiarize you with Military Weapons.

My point is, the people offering all these schools are probably better than you are, and as such there are things to be learned there.

You should never stop learning.

All that said,,,

Front Sight is the leader in Firearms Training.

They ran 80,000 people thru their classes last year and expect that number to go over 100,000 this year.

They currently are using 15-20 Dedicated Ranges from 25 to 400 yards for Rifle, Shotgun and Pistol training as well as several walk thru simulators. They also have Ranges to 1000 yards for Precision Rifle Training.

I have been to numerous schools in my lifetime encompassing many different disciplines.

This is the best run school of ANY KIND I have ever attended. Bar None!

Randy

www.frontsight.com (http://www.frontsight.com)

[garym1a2]

I am a fan of malfunction training. No matter what you shoot they will malfunction sooner or later. 1911's stovepipe, Glocks don't allways feed. AR mags don't allways lock in when full, the AR also has quite a few ways they can jam and if you depend on one you need to know what to do. Don't press the forward asist button very hard unless you have a tool to try open the bolt afterwards as it can cause a tough to clear jam. Even the AK's do Jam sometimes, just they are easy to clear. If you are a AK shooter a good AK course will open your eyes.

[W.R.Buchanan]

There was a variety of guns represented in my Rifle class from bolt guns (A Ruger Scout and a Mossberg MVP) to AK's, Mostly AR's, and some guns that I didn't even know what they were.

My big take aways from the whole rifle class was finding all the sharp edges on my gun, ( a Bushmaster Carbon 15) as well as learning to use the Forward Assist after doing Chamber Checks.

I have an Ambi Charging Handle and BAD Lever, which I had dry practiced with extensively, only to find out that they were virtually useless for all but a very few operations.

I found that unless I used the Forward Assist after partially opening the bolt for a Chamber Check that the gun would not fire as it was not completely in battery,,, nearly every time!.

I found my Trigger is so heavy that it is very difficult to trap and reset. It almost does it automatically which ruins your Follow Thru after the shot.

I found my Sling to be too narrow.

I found out that my Magpul MBUS rear sight actually has Two Apertures!

I learned how to properly set my LOP for best operating length.

I learned that my Rare Earth Magnet Bullet Button tool Will stay in place no matter what.

My Bore to Sight Line offset is about 3" This means that inside of 25 yards you have to aim about 2-3" high to hit where you want.

I also learned that the Bushnell TRS25 on this gun is just as good as the other 6 of them that I own, and instead of using the center of the dot for aiming during sight in, you instead use the top edge of the dot.

All of these things were strictly as a result of attending this class. I have been shooting this gun for about 2 years now and I assure you all that I thought I had it pretty well mastered. The drilling revealed that I suck outright, and it will take a couple more classes with this gun to really get it down to rote functionality.

I can hit with it just fine, in fact my 25 yard offhand groups from the 3 ready positions were about 2" consistently. However when it came to running the gun I had problems. and this is what I attended this class to work out. I am better,,, but I still need more drilling to get to the level I am with my Mini14 and Kel-Tec SU16.

With a combination of Dry Practice and range work I can improve but I will still be going back to Front Sight in October for more Rifle and maybe some Pistol Training as well. I still have to do a Defensive Shotgun course and that will open a completely new can of worms as I have to get proficient with both a Pump and an Auto Shotgun.

Randy

[Blackwater]

Good post, WR. I'm not a big fan of these new "teaching schools," but many would nevertheless benefit greatly from them if they have the $$$ for it. It was long ago when the current crop of "training schools" didn't exist as they do now, so I just went down to the lower 40 and tried all the stuff I read about or could think of to try, and mostly taught myself by trial and error. Now that's on TOP of my being taught to shoot by my old 3-war Marine Dad and some of his buddies. All I did, really, was listen and read and try. It was the trying of stuff that proved to me what I - if nobody else - did best with, shot quickest with and more accurately for the first and for followup shots. For me, having an actual combat trained Dad teaching me, and from what I was reading, it was just natural and logical that I do these things.

To me, the prime thing that these schools have to offer is simply to get folks to THINK and reason, rather than to ASSUME things that most younger and newer shooters seem almost uniformly to assume. Also, they do all they can to teach people to ask the right questions. Einstein once said that the answers were really easy when developing his theories. It was the QUESTIONS that were the hardest, and once he found the right question, the answers were often quite apparent from the very question itself. Shooting is no different. The problem is that it's so dang hard now to get people to simply THINK in any form. We don't seem to really know HOW any more, when "opinion" is allegedly to be valued no matter how daft it might really be. The PC culture and cultists (and there are many more than realize they're part of this group) are dang near incurable.

FWIW, I'd MUCH rather teach a woman to shoot than most younger men today. Show a man how to do something correctly, and they'll often respond with "Well I don't do it that way, I do it THIS way!" When people come to me and seek me out and ask a question, and THEN seem to want to get MY results with THEIR techniques, I have simply had to come to telling them, "If you like the results you're getting, then keep doing it the same way, but if you want to do better, why not try it MY way?" Even then, they get all puffed up, but I simply don't have the TIME, much less the patience, to try to help someone who won't even TRY to help themselves, and who demonstrate such a lack of respect for the realities of shooting that they think it's all about "style" rather than substance. If you find out how to eliminate THIS problem, please let me know. Political correctness seems to inflict an awful lot of people today who don't seem to think they ARE PC. But results just don't lie.

Teach a woman to shoot, and she'll almost always do what you say, even if she doesn't at the moment understand your reasons. Get them to do it and bang! Suddenly they DO understand because they actually apply logic to the issue. Very simple, and very effective. I've never taught a woman who I didn't think was deadly after just 50-100 rds. IF all rds were expended with a purpose.

Shooting IS really a highly developed and technical skill that is NOT developed to the degree it's capable of overnight. One CAN teach someone to be pretty effective at learning to shoot, but it's really largely about learning WHEN to shoot and when to hold your fire, just as you describe Angelina's habits. Wait too late to fire and you may be dead. Too early and you may wind up in jail or even a prison. Some laws have minimized this a bit, but they'll NEVER eliminate it, and learning to do it right, technically and morally, is the closest we can get to being as "safe" as one can be in a litigious and highly variable world.

Glad to see more about this issue. Ya' done good, bro'!

[MtGun44]

Interesting. Haven't had a stovepipe in a 1911 in about 35 years, but that is probably
only 5 to 7,000 rounds per year on the long average.
Good ammo in a good gun and there is no reason to have malfunctions.

OTOH, training for them IS a good idea, and I do it regularly.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Blackwater: Thanks for the props.

My main goal here is to make people aware that there are valuable things to learn with respect to shooting, and anyone thinking that they already know everything is foolish at best and down right dangerous on the flip side..

I don't care who you are or what your background is, you can always learn more.

Most of the instructors at the more prominent schools are either Ex Military, or Law Enforcement or Professional Shooters . Guys like Kyle Lamb, Chris Costas,Todd Hoddnett, Todd Jarrett, are good examples. All of these guys have been shooting at a very high level for along time and have developed many personal techniques, and all have good solid personalities and can relate well and get their ideas across. This is what you are looking for in a teacher,,, matters not what the subject is.

One common thing they all share is,,, all of them are standardized on the Basic Functions of Safety and Firearms Manipulation.

The 4 basic firearms rules, IE Every gun is loaded, don't point at anything you don't want to destroy, finger off trigger until ready to shoot, and be sure what's in the way. Are all pretty standard in the industry and were original codified by Jeff Cooper.

A Type 3 malfunction is a type 3 malfunction, pretty much everywhere you go and the steps required to clear said malfunction are pretty much the same everywhere as well.

However unless you have attended a current school where these things are all taught you probably don't even know what a type 3 malfunction is. Bill hasn't had a type 2 malfunction in years, but I bet he knows how to fix one.

The schools have extensive training in these skills, and I can clear a type 1or 2 in less than 1.5 seconds. A type 3 in 5-6 seconds.

Most people can't do this. But after returning from a class you will be able to.

The very first rounds we fired in my Rifle Class, resulted in a type 3 in my AR. I had not hit the forward assist when I chambered the first round and the extractor was not hooked up. The gun didn't fire so I racked the bolt, and left the round in the chamber and new one was picked up and stuffed in behind it. Damn!

I had drilled this at home however I couldn't lock the bolt open to save my butt due to fumbling and ended up shucking 3 more rounds to the ground before I finally got lucky and the offending round in the chamber just fell out.

What I had drilled at home was fine however I only focused on one way of locking the bolt, and it had not become rote to the point where I could do it under stress everytime.

After about 50 more iterations of that drill I can do it everytime and do it 3 different ways. I would never have achieved this level without supervision and the training atmosphere, I'd just do it 2-3 times and say that's good!

The Standardization of Firearms Manipulation is a good thing. The Military does it, Law Enforcement Agencies do it, and I personally think that anyone who plays with guns owes it to themselves and the people around them to learn this stuff and always try to be as good as they can be.

Nobody wants to go to a range where some idiot is muzzling all the bystanders, or generally operating in an unsafe manner. Nobody wants to confront said idiot for fear that he might take offense and go Postal on you and others. You shouldn't have to worry about such BS. If you shoot you should have some level of basic training behind you, and should actually act like it as well.

I never once,,, With 40 people wearing and shooting guns right next to me, did I feel that I was in any kind of danger from being shot by an idiot while on the firing line at these two classes. I knew that everyone there was competent enough to keep their guns pointed down range when out of the holster, and if they didn't there was 5 instructors roaming the range as well as the shooter/coach relationship to prevent any mishaps.

This is another reason why schools are a good thing. I only wish I had access to them when I was younger.

Randy

[garym1a2]

With an AR try type 4, whatever they call it. Thats where the bolt does not close all the way and you can not open the bolt with the charging handle, you have to either pry it open while slaming the buttstock on the ground while pulling the charging handle.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Gary: I have not heard of that one, but it sounds like a broke gun and time to transition to your sidearm.

What is this problem caused by?

Sounds like it must be avoided,,, maybe by proper maintenance?

Randy

[garym1a2]

Me making Blackout ammo with Lee sizing dies, also with .223 when I had my cases sized and trimmed too long. My little brother found that one in a Costa class. But look up war stories of M16 failing and this is it. Clearing it one way is called Motaring, but be careful as this can break stocks.

With an AK this type of jam can be cleared by a boot to the Op-rod.



Gary: I have not heard of that one, but it sounds like a broke gun and time to transition to your sidearm.

What is this problem caused by?

Sounds like it must be avoided,,, maybe by proper maintenance?

Randy

[Shiloh]

Well done.

You're right. It has been years since I took a professional training class. Jolie/Pitt have the time and money.
Professional training is costly, but you get what you pay for. Just like shooting baskets, or playing an instrument. The more you practice the better you get. Then with professional trtaining, you excell.

Shiloh

[11B-101ABN]

Great post. For those that have the ability to practice on their own property, what are the dimensions of the target in your thumbnail?

[Lonegun1894]

Good training, as you describe, can save your life and the lives of your loved ones. but you better be sure that it is good training. I have seen some "teachers" who were absolutely incompetent. I have military and LE training, and it has saved my life on several occasions, but we all have limitations. For example, I also teach, and have a stack of teaching certifications, mostly in the type of skills that would be beneficial in defensive and offensive situations. I spend a lot of my off time making sure I maintain my skills ( read that as at least 800 shots fired per month through handguns, rifles, and shotguns), and trying to learn new skills. I also have a lot of time in the woods hunting, and have never had any problems with that aspect of shooting. However, you do NOT want me trying to teach you to shoot Trap, for example. Before you spend your hard earned money, do your own research regarding your chosen school and instructor in terms of what you want to learn. As I said earlier, you want me to teach you to clear a building, you got it, but if you want to improve your Trap shooting, I will turn you away and tell you that I will not steal your money. I have made people mad who couldn't get it through their heads that not every instructor is a jack of all trades. And there are some who will take your money, blow a lot of smoke, and teach you NOTHING. So please decide what you want to learn and then do some research.

My last class was supposed to be a long range rifle class with a younger shooter in his mid 20s. Everything I tried to show him, the response was either that in this or that video game, they do it this way or that, or that in some movie they did it this way or that, and he will do it their way cause it "looks cooler". Halfway through the allotted class time for the first day, I gave him his money back and told him that since he refuses to learn anything other than what he got from a movie or video game, I am going fishing (I don't teach during hunting season anymore unless it is a personal friend I am trying to help out). The range owner almost fell over laughing and told the guy that he was told ahead of time that if he wants me, I will teach him, but will not try to figure out why or how to recreate a video game or movie scene because my training was tested overseas and not in front of a TV screen. He apparently made a bet with her contrary to that--and lost.

[Lonegun1894]

Great post. For those that have the ability to practice on their own property, what are the dimensions of the target in your thumbnail?

Don't worry about the dimensions as much as hitting vital spots. Get the targets that have faint outlines of vital organs so you can see them when you check your target, but probably not so much when you're 10+ yards away. A general outline like that target shown is ok, but not great. Another thing I tell my students is to make sure you are at least a basic student or human anatomy and AT LEAST first aid. Here is my logic. You have to know anatomy to be able to pick and choose your intended target on the human body. The first aid training has two advantages. First off, if you or a loved one is injured, you need to know how to save a life. And second, if you know what to fix to save a life, you also know what to break to break down an attacker. These are other things I teach my students. Not as in depth as I would like to in the basic classes, but enough to get the wheels turning so that by the time they come back for an intermediate or advanced class, they have a good grasp of both concepts that allows me to fly through the more advanced aspects and concentrate on whatever class they signed up for instead of having to go off chasing distractions cause they got confused and we had to go off in a different direction to get them to understand before being able to get back to the original topic that they are there to learn about.

[brtelec]

If anyone is interested in going to Front Sight Training Academy PM me.

[WV Mountaineer]

I'd say the $ they cost is the limiting factor for people attending these classes. That and not having vacation time to take the courses.

I'd love to do it. I shoot well. But, my wife, who shoots very little outside of her professional training courses, shoots very well. Has great body control, which translates into great firearm control, great trigger control, etc.. She has really good fundamentals that she falls back on every time she shoots. Watching her engage a target, from the fundamentals to the mindset, is pretty humbling. It makes one realize that they could definitely improve with the training. God Bless

[garym1a2]

You can find decent smaller schools and standalong instructors that are pretty good if you look and cost is much less. Universal Shooting Acadamy in Frostproof is quite good. They have 3 GM's on staff and host many major USPSA and 3Gun events.

I'd say the $ they cost is the limiting factor for people attending these classes. That and not having vacation time to take the courses.

I'd love to do it. I shoot well. But, my wife, who shoots very little outside of her professional training courses, shoots very well. Has great body control, which translates into great firearm control, great trigger control, etc.. She has really good fundamentals that she falls back on every time she shoots. Watching her engage a target, from the fundamentals to the mindset, is pretty humbling. It makes one realize that they could definitely improve with the training. God Bless

[W.R.Buchanan]

You may also PM ME! as I have many certificates to disperse. I am a Guardian Member and with that comes many benefits.

It doesn't have to cost a lot, you just have to be a part of it. It really pays for itself within the first couple of classes.

I can't afford to go to Gunsite as the cheapest course is around $1400, and there is no membership. You pay full pop for every course.

Once you are a member of Front Sight all courses are free for the rest of your life. All you have to do is apply two weeks in advance and show up with your Firearms, gear and Factory Ammo. If you don't have Firearms you can rent them there, and you can also buy ammo there. Since it's in the middle of the desert ammo isn't cheap, but there is a Walmart in Pahrump so you can stock up there.

The "Making Time Problem" is a personal problem and no school can fix that for you. You pretty much have to decide that you want to do it, and make it happen. Just like going hunting or fishing 1500 miles from home, it's not a day trip. Lots of people call it their vacation, I call it a trip to Vegas for a few days. I go to Vegas for the SHOT Show every year, and now the SCI Show, and used to go to the SEMA Show as well. All good excuses to get out of town for a few days. Really like to go back for the "Bikini Bod Competition" this Sat at the "M" Hotel. With a $500 first prize I bet the competition will be fierce!

If your wife is complaining, you'll be gone too long,,, Take her with you! If she doesn't shoot you can leave her at the Casino and she can play slots all day or go shopping. Anyone who can't find something to do in Vegas is just not trying.

Randy

[hutch18414]

Frontsite also offers a series of newsletter training and reality check videos. He also sells a dryfire training
manual that is well worth the money. I know that manual has helped my shooting a lot. Also offers online videos that are really good. Maybe not as good as taking the course on site but better than ignoring a chance to learn all you can.

[PB234]

So Bradd Pitt takes a lot of courses and Ms. Jolie does too. Bradd has a net worth reported to be about $240,000,000 and Ms. Jolie has about $145,000,000 for a total of about a third of a billion dollars. When they want to take a course they can import the trainer or just get in their limo and their private jet and do it. Take a week of of work is no problem when the income from just the investments probably is about $1,000,000 a week. You think they don't have security people on the grounds of their home or when they go out... These folks never have not worry about conflict as the adversary would first have to get past their security which is likely about the best money can buy for a private citizen. If they play with guns it is just to play with guns and personal security is not part of the equation.

[WV Mountaineer]

The wife isn't a problem. As well, I realize I have to make the time if I were to go. I have the money to go. The problem with making money in small business is that it takes up most of your time to do so. I haven't missed more than 5 working days a year since 2011. And 2011 was because I had cancer. No hunts, no fishing trips. Just work. And, I'm not complaining. It takes a lot of money to pay off the doctors bills that come with cancer. I'm blessed in the highest regards in being capable of doing so.

I was just saying why more people likely don't train more. For some like me it is priorities. For others it is money. God Bless

[garym1a2]

You can find decent one or two day courses if you want to. If you never take a day off, than no one can help you.
P.S. USPSA, 3Gun and even IDPA can help your skills. Conventional High power with a Service Rifle if you really want to learn to shoot a rifle.
Appleseed are one day events and are good rifle training also.

[brtelec]

As W.R. Buchanan said, I too am a Guardian member and the 2 and 4 day class certificates we have allow you to go for free. My wife and I go fairly regularly and I enjoy the classes but she loves it. The curriculum is straight out of Gunsite with a few wrinkles. I do not agree with everything they teach but I am old and stubborn. I will say though, I learn something new on every class and I am much faster than I ever was.

[EDG]

Just think how quick you would be after shooting skeet for a decade.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Just think how quick you would be after shooting skeet for a decade.

I shoot Skeet once a month. Many of my gun handling techniques and especially my trigger control come from things learned at FS. I shoot a .410 and average in the 18-20 range.

The head of training for FS is Brad Ackman, he was personally trained by Jeff Cooper and was his #1 disciple.

Currently it doesn't get any better than that.

Randy

[W.R.Buchanan]

PB234: believe me,,, They can shoot. They usually train at the North Hollywood Range before movies and the training is 8 hours a day for a week or two depending on the guns they will be using. He drives there in a MBZ G500 that Jen gave him, with his body guard. All those people have bodyguards when they go out, but that doesn't mean they are helpless.

These people are just like anyone else except they have to go thru the drive thru at McDonalds instead of walking in. He has a gun collection which rivals any private collection and once again I know this for a fact as I know the guy he uses as his FFL.

The fact that they are zillionaires is irrelevant anybody who is in the public eye is going to have security. It's just part of everyday life for public people simply because 1% of the population is completely insane.

Some Jerk who was in love with Mila Kunis invaded her house just last week, she has security people too but the Jerk still got past them.

WE have a Celebrity Shoot every year at the Ojai Gun Club Range. People like Joe Montagne, Powers Booth, and even Wayne LaPierre show up every year and they drive there in their personal cars without body guards, So your security requirements kind of depend on you position in the Hollywood hierarchy.

All these guys can shoot, all shoot frequently, and the ones I mentioned above are not slouches on the trap range at all.

Usually we get Kim Rhode who is a multi Olympic Champ to come and help us out. Her home range is Oak Tree in Valencia. a lot of the Stars shoot at the San Fernando Range as well.

There is little problem with Security,,, Everybody is carrying a gun!

Front Sight also has what could be stated as a perfect Security Record. No one has ever gotten anything stolen... Once again,,, Everyone is wearing a gun. This kind of deters bad behavior .

Randy

[Blackwater]

Training is a subject worth MUCH more than 99% of shooters give it. I have a slight problem with how most of the trainers seem to emphasize a system of proceedures. It's really a minor problem when compared to just going out and blazing away and practicing doing things either wrong or in a way not conducive to good results. However, as has been stated already, it's eternal vigilance and focus and attention to the details that keeps us from committing possibly costly errors. Proceedures give one a "track to run on," and thus, a system of checks, but even so, there'll NEVER be a substitute for simple focus and vigilance. Ever. I just hope none of you have to learn that the way I did. I was actually lucky. You might not be.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Blackwater: the reason why they stress rote muscle memory drilling is because when:dung_hits_fan:, you immediately drop to 50% or below of your best training day. All fine motor skills go right out the window.

You don't have time to think thru the scenario, you simply have time to react. Believe me I was sure I could think my way thru high pressure scenarios. One Tactical Pistol Class cured me of that notion, and I failed so dramatically that it left a permanent scar on my being.

No matter how good you think you are,,, in reality you are probably only 25% as good as that, and unless you think you are a 100% shooter, that final number equals ,,, You suck!

Things like drawing the gun, making the presentation, aligning the sights, and getting a good trigger pull, all have to be automatic. You've got to do it right as your life probably depends on it. You notice the times allowed for drawing and firing in my earlier post. There is no time allowed for "thinking."

These schools are all pretty much teaching "Defensive" gun skills. In order to get "Offensive" training you must Enlist or join the FBI or maybe ISIS where they are teaching those tactics specifically and they are not advertising, simply because they would be promoting the Militia Mentality.

I personally don't see anything wrong with me knowing these types of tactics. However I do have a big problem with Little Jonny from da Hood getting this training. That's why Front Sight does a background check on you once a year.

I also have a big problem with Illegal Immigrants enlisting in our Army and Marines and getting trained only to go back to Mexico and become soldiers for Drug Cartels,,, with American Citizenship too boot!

Lots more to this and your post is spot on, however the numbers of trained individuals is increasing everyday and BO is one of the biggest reasons why. People are starting to see the threat from within. It would have to come from within since No Foreign Govt. would dare to invade the US with a conventional army. We the citizens would shred them and any one with a brain would know this. However they are coming at us from every other conceivable direction simply because they know this President is a ***** and won't do anything to hit back, or if he does hit back it will be with a limp wrist.

We all need to be as good as we can be all the time. It just makes life better!

Randy

[tygar]

[QUOTE=Blackwater;3269599]

FWIW, I'd MUCH rather teach a woman to shoot than most younger men today. Show a man how to do something correctly, and they'll often respond with "Well I don't do it that way, I do it THIS way!" When people come to me and seek me out and ask a question, and THEN seem to want to get MY results with THEIR techniques, I have simply had to come to telling them, "If you like the results you're getting, then keep doing it the same way, but if you want to do better, why not try it MY way?" Even then, they get all puffed up, but I simply don't have the TIME, much less the patience, to try to help someone who won't even TRY to help themselves, and who demonstrate such a lack of respect for the realities of shooting that they think it's all about "style" rather than substance. If you find out how to eliminate THIS problem, please let me know. Political correctness seems to inflict an awful lot of people today who don't seem to think they ARE PC. But results just don't lie.

Teach a woman to shoot, and she'll almost always do what you say, even if she doesn't at the moment understand your reasons. Get them to do it and bang! Suddenly they DO understand because they actually apply logic to the issue. Very simple, and very effective. I've never taught a woman who I didn't think was deadly after just 50-100 rds. IF all rds were expended with a purpose.
END QUOTE:

Absolutely my experience in small arms instruction. Women listen & follow instructions, a lot of men think they are John Wayne & already "know it all". That is, until the women shoot the pants off them.

What's so frustrating is that many of them could really be good, good enough to compete, but couldn't care less.

My wife drives me nuts. Taught her to shoot almost 50 yrs ago & she was shooting 45acp & 44mags with great skill very quickly but just wouldn't keep it up, just didn't care. I have to badger her to just practice with her carry gun.

PS: I have several FS courses, got them a long time ago when he was offering them cheap but have yet used one. NV is a long way from VA.

[Blackwater]

Good points all. The one time I came right up to the point of having to squeeze out those last few ounces on a trigger cocked gun, I did EXACTLY what I'd trained myself to do. I'd been to the police academy, but that training was pretty minimal and dismal, and mainly directed at keeping us from shooting one another or some innocent. It's amazing how one automatically and instantly defers to one's pre-set behaviors and motions when a real life situation finally confronts us in reality. I see so very, very few who understand or appreciate that, and it really DOES take a LOT more than just going to a store and picking up a gun to "get ready to defend myself."

One has to learn when to shoot or not shoot, and be able to make that decision in a literal twinkling of an eye, and that just ain't something that comes to us overnight or easily. Guys like Elmer Keith and all the older real "gunfighters" were really more possessed of an attitude and natural proclivity to respond instantly than the "average person," and THAT, more than anything else, is what set them apart. That takes some practice with the gun, of course, to get familiar with it so it works as a natural extension of our body and will, but more than anything, a tight situation requires us to THINK correctly and VERY quickly - hopefully we'll recognize the threat BEFORE it becomes a reality and is just being formulated in the bad guy's mind. Those old "gunfighters" of olde were masters at this. They could usually tell by the look in an adversary's eyes, the expression of his face, his stance, and other clues what was ABOUT to happen. Another clue is when people try to look a little TOO cool and innocuous. That's never a good indication. Seeing that allows us to formulate VERY quickly in our minds what we need to do in response. Getting our hands close to our guns is a good start, and doing it without looking overtly threatening is always a good idea.

All sorts of things to consider, and the schools DO at least introduce the shooters that attend them to at least some of the infinite things they may face. I do like the way they use current statistics to decide what to teach. That's just good common sense to prepare students to respond to what's most likely to crop up.

I'm pretty much self-taught, with input from some police and others who've been there and done that sort of thing, some multiple times. I just tried to train myself to respond quickly and effectively. I was VERY leery about learning a quick draw for a long time, and always practiced to be PRECISE in my movements rather than quick. With time, I got fairly quick, too, but the precision part was always my focus. Developing that habit really, really helped me a LOT! When it came time to do it for real, I was confident, and knew I could do it more quickly than I'd ever done it in practice, and THAT probably allowed me to "own" the situation without having to use the gun. Bad guys just seem to have a sixth sense about when NOT to do some things. All I really knew for sure, is that if I went down, he would too, and I was fully committed to seeing the matter at hand through. The bad guys weren't, thank God! That won't always work, for sure, but when it does, it's really a big relief to have NOT had to shoot somebody, and still get the job done.

I always tried to keep myself "flexible" in formulating "plans," if you can call them that, to solve situations in the best way for all concerned, but if it DOES become necessary to shoot, it'll be VERY quick, and one CANNOT hesitate once the gun is drawn, usually. Being emotionally prepared to deal with that is harder than learning the proceedures, but that's another whole ball of wax. One really needs to cover that ground in whatever way one can BEFORE such things happen. THAT is really the hardest part. Even coming right up to the point of having to pull the trigger is disturbing enough, so one should spend sufficient time and consideration of how we'll handle that, too.

Great post, WR! I just hope noone has to make use of this info, but if they do, they'll find that training really DOES matter, and it matters a LOT more than most give it credit for.

[ohland]

Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt have... 15 times the amount of training I have gotten and their gun handling shows it. Randy

Great. Next time they deploy or react to a home invasion, I bet all this training will pay off... A lot of the people that really need and could USE this training live in the inner cities (IMHO). All these Hollywood gunslingers should donate to have Mobile Training Teams go to Detroit, Chicago, Baltimore... lots of places.

Now if they shot IPSC or practical pistol, that would be a good use.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Great. Next time they deploy or react to a home invasion, I bet all this training will pay off... A lot of the people that really need and could USE this training live in the inner cities (IMHO). All these Hollywood gunslingers should donate to have Mobile Training Teams go to Detroit, Chicago, Baltimore... lots of places.

Now if they shot IPSC or practical pistol, that would be a good use.

I think this is a good idea!

As far as the inner cities go, the only people who need the training are Cops, and all of the Democratic Mayors who have created these environments and such need to be removed.

I'm gonna go a little political here for a minute:

Every single city where major problems exist are run by Democrats! it is time the people of these communities wise up and get over the Al Sharptons of this world and start employing the Rudy Giuliani's of this world.

They all pontificate about how they are the champions of the down trodden and yet they are the ones keeping these people in place. I personally think this is criminal and should be dealt with accordingly.

Every Single Program or Law that Democrats have championed has had EXACTLY the OPPOSITE effect that it was supposedly designed to accomplish!

The only reason why these people gain traction is because they promise the world and people forget what they promised. Nevermind that they never deliver on those promises (except maybe to their biggest donors.)

The reason why people elect them is because over the last 60 years our schools have been dumbed down to the point where the young adults now are so frigging stupid that they can't understand or pay attention long enough to figure out what is right and what is wrong, They can't even find a job!


OH,,, Democrats control the schools too. How about that?

I fear the only thing that will rectify this situation is a revolution. if that doesn't happen before it's too late, it is only a matter of time until this country fades into history.

Randy

[ohland]

inner cities go, the only people who need the training are Cops Randy

Not every city dweller is a gangbanger. God would have saved Sodom if Lot could find five good men... Chiraq has a lot of people trapped in the socialist paradise... Besides, why should American Citizens, born in the USA, be consigned to perdition just because of polititians?

Now the creation and furtherance of the socialist paradise is entirely a political question.

[Blackwater]

I've dealt with a lot of the people mentioned, who seem trapped within the circle of violence that exists within most of our inner cities due mostly to the drug trade. The ones I feel MOST sorry for are the matriarchal grandmothers who always have great hopes for their progeny, but who cry the bitterest tears as they watch all their great efforts go to waste as their young ones get into the gang-banger lifestyle and all manner of troubles and mischief. I doubt I'll ever see greater strength and courage than some of these old grandmothers display, even in the worst of circumstances. Anyone who can't or won't feel for them is .... well, I won't classify them, but it's surely evident they don't have much of a heart within them. I think some of these old grandmothers have a special place in Heaven awaiting them for their perseverance and faithfulness in the face of what would be unimaginable challenges for most of us. If there's ever been a "Profile in Courage," it's these good and so horrendously plagued women, and the really good Men who also do all they can under the most difficult of conditions to raise their sons righteously. It'll never cease to humble me to see these folks in action, and I think we could all learn some lessons from them.

[fredj338]

Not just training but good practice. One w/o the other is almost useless. I compete in IDPA 3-4x a month, with a a night competition 2-3x a year. I retrain once a year. It is amazing how your skills can degrade if you are not shooting every week. I also help instruct 3-4 classes a year, including classes at night, something far too many of us don't do enough of. To stay @ the top of your game, good practice once a week is mandatory, competition or SD/CCW.
I see a lot of CCW & LEO at the matches only once or twice a year & they really need to be there every week. As put to me by an instructor; "in a fight, you'll be half as good as your worst day at the range". So if you are avg under low stress range conditions, like IDPA, then you will NOT rise to the occasion in a fight, but fall back on your training & muscle memory. Train, practice & repeat.

[garym1a2]

Night fireing is a skill that will help quite a bit. I wish we had night competition here. Chances are when trouble hits its at night.
Not just training but good practice. One w/o the other is almost useless. I compete in IDPA 3-4x a month, with a a night competition 2-3x a year. I retrain once a year. It is amazing how your skills can degrade if you are not shooting every week. I also help instruct 3-4 classes a year, including classes at night, something far too many of us don't do enough of. To stay @ the top of your game, good practice once a week is mandatory, competition or SD/CCW.
I see a lot of CCW & LEO at the matches only once or twice a year & they really need to be there every week. As put to me by an instructor; "in a fight, you'll be half as good as your worst day at the range". So if you are avg under low stress range conditions, like IDPA, then you will NOT rise to the occasion in a fight, but fall back on your training & muscle memory. Train, practice & repeat.

[Blackwater]

Many good points made here, and the only thing I can add is that simple "mindset" - an fairly often discussed but seldom really understoood factor - may well be THE single most important factor in a real life confrontation. Training gives us a "track to run on," and thus enhance our responses, but mindset is what it takes to actually pull the trigger - and THAT is what very well MAY wind up determining whether we go to the police headquarters to fill out a report, or to the morgue for final examination. We "moderns" tend to vascillate MUCH too often and too frequently, and THIS can and very well MAY get us killed. It's the most humbling factor in the total equation, and thus, is all too often glossed over, even in a lot of these schools that are prevalent now. After all, these schools HAVE to pay attention to the bottom line, and if they scare off, or offend the delicate sensibilities of potential students, they're gonna' close and have to find other means of making a living. Thus, many don't really go into this factor deeply or thoroughly enough, and in truth, many wouldn't really absorb it anyway, so they just give in to "the art of the possible," and the least common denominator so their schools will be a "success," and let the rest work itself out as it may.

I've talked with a fair number of people who've had the experience of having to shoot for real, and who've been shot as well, and THIS is something you'll quickly note about those who've RECEIVED a chunk of lead rather than just throwing it. To a man, they've had a mindset that they'd NEVER let THAT happen again if within their power to prevent it, and they won't hesitate, dawdle or even try to think when confronted with a real life "challenge." They just RESPOND, and they respond with an intensity of INTENT that is quite humbling. You can see it in their eyes, and on the expressions in their faces, when they talk about it. It's hard to get them to speak of these things, but when they know you may face a similar challenge one day, they will, usually, talk about it to at least a useful and significant degree. These are perhaps the greatest "lessons" we can ever learn, if we get the opportunity to have them. They generally won't talk about it in general conversations, and do their best NOT to, but if you can get them to understand that you're genuinely concerned about the matter, they will, at least sometimes, give you ENOUGH to know that these things are NOT games. They're VERY serious and not to be taken lightly or equated to the "games" we play in "combat shooting." After all, in our "games," nobody's shooting BACK, so we CANNOT get the full gravity of a real life experience from them. It takes serious and not really very pleasant consideration of some VERY serious matters - something most of us today are very reluctant, if not outright resistant to doing. I think it was in "The Shootist" that John Wayne as J. B. Books said that in a tight, most people will hesitate, or otherwise show reluctance to shoot, and that this could and likely would get them killed, despite having the gun necessary to prevent their deaths. He said he wouldn't, and that was what made him survive so many gunfights as the character Books. There is much Truth in that little missive he gave to the young kid after the shooting lesson. Similar tidbits of wisdom come from ol' Dirty Harry, like when he said, "A man's GOT to know his limitations." There are others, and we seem to innately recognize them as important, and therefore remember the words, but seldom do I see people really internalize them sufficiently to actually USE them in a real scenario. We simply don't WANT to take the eventuality of having to shoot, so .... we just don't. We live in the first period in history when we really have much of an option to do that - to simply dismiss what we don't WANT to think about. Throughout most of history, realities have been thrust upon us, and those who weren't prepared died or were killed off. Even the dullest among us can get THAT message! However, we now seem to have come to a point where we no longer take serious things really seriously, and have seemingly adopted the view that simply having an "opinion" on everything is what it's all about. It isn't. Never has been. Never will be. Without the mindset necessary to actually pull that trigger, all the training and practice in the world won't help very much at all, no matter how much it makes us FEEL better about things. I'd really like to see this little factor dealt with more fully in these schools, but I doubt it'd enhance what they CAN do now, due simply to the mindset that many bring to these schools. Some do a better job at this than others, apparently, and Gunsite, based on what I've read at least, seems to be one of the better ones. Since I've already settled that issue down on the lower 40 years ago, however reluctantly it was faced at the time, I don't need that, and mainly just need to keep in practice better than I have for a good number of years now. At least I still retain enough that I wouldn't want ME shooting at ME even today.

So don't let ANY of this discourage anyone from attending one of these schools. I have a couple of buddies who've attended them, and they've been impressed at all the things they'd never thought about, or poo-pooed until they attended the schools, so it was DEFINITELY worth the money they paid. Not one has ever felt they'd wasted their dollars. Just remember the little thing about mindset, and you'll REALLY be about as prepared as any human being CAN be to deal effectively with a confrontation and NOT go to the morgue. Just having a pistol won't ensure that, and they CAN be taken away from you and used against you, so .... pay attention and get the full benefit of these schools by taking them, and the realities they address, VERY seriously. To do otherwise would be largely a waste of money. Take it seriously, though, and really THINK about what they expose you to, and you'll benefit greatly - possibly enough to save your life.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Front Sight teaches a concept called the "Combat Mindset." This is covered in lectures at lunch usually.

This is direct from Jeff Cooper. It basically stresses the levels of awareness that everyone should be aware of, but few actually are.

I am, and was, long before I went to Front Sight.

I basically grew up being aware of my surroundings as a part of survival in a town where avoiding the Police on one hand, or toughs on the other, was a necessary skill for someone who graduated High School at 112 lbs. I also had a bit of a mouth which I wasn't really equipped to back up, so guns came into my life early. Luckily I had some big friends as well.

"When it's time to act,,," is best be dealt with on an individual basis. In other words, Everyone has to clearly define the line in the sand,,, that,,, when crossed, results in decisive action. Everyone needs to have this clearly defined long before they need it. because when you need it you won't have the time to think about it. This is a pretty simple concept

In my case these lines are," a direct threat to me, potential harm to my wife or close friend, or an unknown entering my house." In the case of the "unknown," as soon as I have a gun in my hand they are dead.

If I can't get to a gun, then a knife or machete, or even a Shambok which I have by both entry doors. You would be better off being shot or hacked to pieces by me, as if I get to the Shambok I will cut you to ribbons with it and it won't be a nice way to die. And if I'm in crazy mode I won't stop until there is a serious mess. I didn't find out I even had "Crazy Mode," until I was 40 years old! It can be useful at times!

When it comes to the fight,,, your only thoughts are WIN,,,WIN,,,WIN! No matter what it takes. If you find yourself behind the curve,,, YOU NEED TO FIGHT HARDER! You really do need that Crazy Mode!

I feel that EVERYONE needs to be taught this at a very early age. I was not, since my Dad was not around so I had to learn it the hard way.

This is part of that Combat Mindset! You fight to win! period. Our President doesn't get this!

Where I'm at on all of this is,,, since I don't carry a gun daily, I am probably not going to have a gun with me if a threat shows up. If the threat is some distance away I will avoid it if at all possible. If it is up close, I have a Knife or my little Stinger device which is essentially a plastic knuckle. It will hurt the perp pretty bad, and I am also pretty good with a knife. Learned that very early since I never was able to carry a gun!

If by some chance a gun becomes available, I will be in the fight. By then all the necessary lines have long since been crossed and I am good to go. The other factor here is that by this time I've had time to settle down and can start applying what I have learned about shooting. This is the point were you can actually think your way thru a scenario. Prior to that time, It's all about Rote Function.

Right now Cops are under tremendous scrutiny, and this scrutiny is deliberately placing them behind the curve in any altercation they face. It causes them to hesitate, and as such places them a risk of being too late to defend themselves. This is not a good thing since as the sophistication of the aggressors increases, the time to react to them decreases.

Every person who reads this thread should take some time to think thru the points I've made above. You need to have your personal "line in the sand," well thought out. Some say you should write it down and mail it to yourself. In any event you need to have this stuff all figured out and when the line is crossed you act. Period.

This is the original case of "If you snooze, you lose!" Don't be that person. Get Trained!

Randy

You will note: Front Sight has a Banner on this site, which is up today.

[Blackwater]

Sounds like you and I grew up similarly. I was 155 at graduation, but never more than 135 before that, and as an underclassman, I had a bit of a mouth, too, and I unfortunately learned a sense of honor long before I learned learned a sense of discretion, and the big bullys in the grades ahead of me could NOT back me down or intimidate me. One of those guys is now a friend. When in Viet Nam, the seals tried to get him to join them. He was in communications a the time. He and they cleaned out quite a few beer joints back then, and I had the idiocy to take even THIS guy on. The hardest lick I'll likely ever pass was once when I hit him. It stunned him for a second or two, but he shook it off and when I saw the look in his eye, all I could think of was, "I wonder if I play dead, will he just walk off?" That guy came up VERY rough. His father was a huge, and very strong bully and a violent drunk. That he came out of all that and made a good place for himself in the world is an everlasting credit for him. He darn sure EARNED everything he ever got out of this life, and most importantly, learned a sense of self worth and self respect.

Now, I have too many health problems to wrestle a young man. It'd put my life in serious danger, so I HAVE to resort to deadly force BEFORE that happens. There used to be a principle in law that a perpetrator takes his victim as he is, whether he knows of any health issues that might make him more susceptible to attacks than the assumed "average man." I have no idea whether that is still in effect, but I doubt it. All I know is I will NOT hesitate to pull a trigger if it's necessary. I won't pull it too soon, either. Sometimes innocents can be killed like that. But if I see it's needed, there'll be no hesitation on my part. I just trained myself down on the lower 40 by constantly practicing with scenarios in my mind, and I was actually surprised at how well it worked for me. Not sure it'd work for everybody, but it can't hurt, and adds a new dimension to our shooting that just MIGHT really pay off one day.

I'm really glad you posted this, because the kind of "practice" I generally see on a range or wherever doesn't usually constitute much more than burning up ammo, really. The hard part is when I suggest something more interesting and challenging, I get a look like that of a doe caught in the headlights at night. We just quit challenging ourselves and others, and our shooting really shows it, collectively speaking at least. And that's sad, because it's really SO easy to get better. All we have to do is think and pay attention and evaluate and really think about what it really takes to survive. It's humbling to do that, at least at first, but it's really amazing how quickly one can really improve IF they just WANT to. Good instruction ALWAYS helps with that.