Cap 'n' Ball Moulds?

[Ricochet]

Anybody on here use the Lee conical bullet moulds for blackpowder revolvers?

36 Cal. 375-130-IR
44 Cal. Rem.
44 Ruger Old Army


I'm wondering if the base band is of reduced diameter for easy seating in the chamber?


The heel type boolit cast by my Italian brass "nutcracker" mould is ideal, but the doggone mould gets too hot to hold with welding gloves!


The 452-160-RF has a very short reduced diameter shank that works under perfect condtions, but get a little shaved lead or lube in the loading port and they tip badly.


There's not much selection of very short, light .45 boolits with gas check shanks, which would work in a .44 cap 'n' ball.



Hey, I've just discovered Buffalo Bullets' swaged .44 and .45 conical revolver bullets, but they're expensive and have gone out of production. That might be a good design to copy for a custom mould run.

[Blkpwdrbuff]

Ricochet, I have the Lee .36 Cal mould in double cavity. I have some cast up and ran them through my 4500 Lyman sizer. I haven't had the opportunity yet to load and shoot them.
From the looks of them they should load quite easy.
I'm going to shoot them out of my Pietta .36 Colt Navy. Maybe this weekend if the weather is good.
If so I'll post my results.
Blkpwdrbuff:castmine:

[Ricochet]

Can you see if the sizer polished the base band as well as the upper bands, or was it left unsized as you'd expect if the base is smaller? Is it convenient to try one in a chamber mouth to see if the base slips in easily?

(Normally you don't size boolits for cap 'n' balls as the edge of the chamber shaves a little lead off.)

[10-x]

Have wondered how they did it way back then with the "nut cracker" type molds? Just picked up a 1851 Navy and 1860 Army Colt clone and plan to go "Blasting" with them soon. Have an original 1860 Army Colt mold that cast a RB and Con. boolit. Thought of fitting some wood handles to the mold. Maybe drilling out a large dowel?to fit over the handle?
Anyone else had any luck doing this?
This is the perfect case of "Too Hot to Handle"

[Ricochet]

I've thought the same about maybe trying some drilled dowels for handles on the nutcracker.

[xtimberman]

Yes, that's a good idea that works well. I've used 6" sections of old broomhandles - drill them out and rout them with a rattail rasp to fit the metal handles of the little short C&B mould handles and the older Winchester moulds with metal handles.

xtm

[andrew375]

I used the Lee conical mould in my old army for a couple of years. Easy to use, the reduced base band works perfectly, reasonable accuracy but nothing outstanding. The first time I shot round ball group size halved and I've never shot conical since.

Don't waste time with the italian repro mould I've never seen one any good for casting with or one that cast a properly shaped and sized bullet.

[DLCTEX]

I shoot .454 dia. 255 gr. (ACWW) boolits in my ROA and size half of the lower band to .452 in the lubrasizer. This helps get them started straight and have no problems with boolit jump if boolit is straight from the start. I have used RCBS case chamfer tool to knock the corners off to aid in boolit starting. DALE

[Ricochet]

I just ordered from Graf's a Lee mould for the Remington revolvers, the 450-200-1R, to experiment with. If the base isn't small enough to set in my Walker, I may end up getting a Remington to go with the mould, who knows? Anyway, I'm thinking of reaming or honing out the .442" chambers to better match the .447" groove diameter barrel.

[xtimberman]

You have to make certain that the soft lead conical is a good fit for your C&B cylinder. Otherwise, if it's too small, It will want to walk out and bind up the cyl. turning. If it's too large, you'll badly deform the conical point when you seat it with the rammer.

I have a Colt .36 Navy repro that requires .375" round balls. It came with one of the little brass 2-cav. moulds mentioned above, and when I cast with it I would fill both to speed things up. It dropped a ball and a conical and both measured ~.379" with pure lead. The ball worked fine, but the conical was hard to line up properly and would smush into a blob when pushed into the cylinder.

Later I found a Lyman mould meant for .38 Sp., 360363, that I thought would work. It was too loose in the cylinder, but was undersize just enough to work in the paper "cartridges" I was making.

I believe that the Lee conicals would work great. They look like they will survive a trip through the sizer OK when cast of soft lead, and be just the perfect dimension for the C&B cylinder/chamber.

Here is a photo of the broomhandle segments I use for handles for the brass mould. You can see the scorching from the hot-handled little devils.

xtm

[madcaster]

Friend John!
I didn't know you wuz into stinkpoles!
This is good news!:-D

[45 2.1]

Anybody on here use the Lee conical bullet moulds for blackpowder revolvers?

36 Cal. 380-130-IR
44 Ruger Old Army
I have these. They both have reduced bases. The middle band is also reduced, but slightly thicker than the base, but less than the top band/ogive. The top band/ogive is full size to the mold designation. Cast very soft, they do excellently in the BP wheelguns and in reduced rifle loads.

I'm wondering if the base band is of reduced diameter for easy seating in the chamber? Yes, they are.

[xtimberman]

Friend John!
I didn't know you wuz into stinkpoles!
This is good news!:-D

Yep, I started shooting BP way back when it was cheap and easy-to-find, and came in Dupont cans.

xtm

[madcaster]

Whoops,I should have said Richochet....

[Ricochet]

Yeah, I love that old Walker, despite its quirks, and I have a Dixie flintlock Tennessee Mountain Rifle I built from a kit in 1980-81. Haven't shot it in ages because BP's no longer available locally and I haven't yet tried ordering any because I'm not entirely happy with storing the amount it takes to make it economically reasonable with shipping and hazmat. Thus the Pyrodex RS that's on the shelves at Wal-Mart as BP once was.

Other Friend John (xtm), thanks for the info and pics. Those things sure do get hot! My Walker nutcracker mould produces a heeled boolit that slips right into the chamber and has something like a .451" O.D. at the base of the ~2R pointy ogive. Loads like a dream, and as far as I can tell with the sights being SO far off, shoots as well as anything I've tried. It'd be a nice boolit in a multicavity Lee mould. The hollow in the end of the rammer is almost, but not quite, spherical with a little bit of a point to it, and doesn't deform those much on seating (if they're pure lead.) It's actually a nice boolit, probably of an original style. I just can't handle the hot mould. I am curious how they did that in the old days.

45-2.1 & andrew, thanks for the confirmation about the reduced diameter base band! I'll just have to wait till the mould gets here to see if the boolits will easily seat in my .442" chambers. With Lee moulds you don't always know that what you get will be the same as someone else gets out of the same # mould.

.454" balls of course work well and are easy to load if you don't care about sprue alignment. I always have a terrible time centering those things!

Lee's 452-160-RF boolit has a very short reduced diameter heel like a vestigial gas check shank instead of a beveled base. That will enter the chamber of a .44 C&B, and under ideal circumstances works. But it's so short that if any resistance is encountered in turning the cylinder in line under the rammer (as from previously shaved lead, lube or other debris) the boolits will tip and cause serious headaches in seating. Same with any bevel based .45 boolits. And .45 ACP boolits of many common styles will collide with the loading port as the cylinder is rotated. The round nose shape of the Lee blackpowder boolit should clear the port nicely and fit the rammer well.

Thanks again to everyone!

[lathesmith]

I have used the Lee conicals in the past, both for the 44 and 36. They both were pretty accurate , as far as I could tell. I used pyrodex with them, and back then I just used them pan-lubed with 50/50 and they actually shot pretty well. I remember *slightly* chamfering the front of the cylinders with a 1/2" or so drill bit, and this really helped in getting them started true in the chamber without distortion or cutting. I don't know if the base on the 44 is smaller, but I still have a few out in the garage and could measure a few if anyone is interested.
BTW, I have also loaded and shot these BP slugs in a 45 ACP cylinder conversion for my 1858 Remmy. They shoot pretty good this way too, but are not as accurate as a Lyman 200 gr SWC. They are versitile and fun to play with, and if you do any BP revolver shooting at all you need to try one.
lathesmith

[Ricochet]

Yeah, I'd be interested to hear what yours measure, if it's not too much trouble. There is about .003" variability in Lee moulds, though.

I'd figured these things were shootable in a .45 ACP, and some of mine will surely end up going down the pipe of my Government Model. I've been curious about loading up some of those 452-160-RFs in the .45, too. I missed out on the 155 grain SWC they used to offer. Might be possible to safely hit Mach 1 with one of these light boolits in the .45. It'd sound different from the usual .45.

[Blkpwdrbuff]

Ricochet, I just looked at my Lee .36 conicals I had ran through the sizer and couldn't see that it had sized the driving band. I ran them through a .375 dia. sizing die, lubed them with WLL BPCR lube.
I removed the cylinder from may Pietta 1851 Colt Navy and tried the bullets.
They didn't seem to start very easy. According to 45 2.1 the base band is reduced. Looking with my eyeball I didn't notice. I didn't have time to mike them.
The .375 die didn't seem to size them at all, just lube them.
I don't know if this helps.
Blkpwdrbuff:castmine:

[hedgehorn]

I just picked up a Ruger Old Army and I wish I could find the lee conical bullet mold for it. Would would wheel weights be too hard for a conical bullet in this pistol? Thanks

[Ricochet]

Thanks, blkpwdrbuff!

Hedgehorn, I've tried wheelweight bullets in my Walker and found them VERY hard to seat in the chambers with a lead ring shearing off. I was afraid of breaking the loading lever. I don't have a Ruger Old Army, but I suspect its loading lever would be overstressed, too. Better stick with soft lead unless you load the cylinder out of the frame with a loading tool.

As for finding that mould, it's available at several online shooting supply stores. Cheapest place I found it last night was at Graf's. http://grafs.com/ (I think they only had one in stock for the Old Army.)

[shooting on a shoestring]

Ricochet,

I use a Remington .36 clone, bought at Walgreens in Clovis, NM in the 70's. It too shot unreasonably high due to a lack of height on the front sight blade. My solution was to get a piece of aluminum 1/8" thick, 1/2" wide flat stock, filed to shape fitted over the existing steel front sight and JB welded into place. It came off a time or two until I quit being cute with the JB weld and put a big dob on each side. Then I filed it down to get sighted in. Now it shoots where its sighted.

I used it as a bedside piece for a number of years. It fit my hand well and shot where I pointed it w/o using sights. I figured in low light or no light conditions, that was the best solution. Sometimes I still revert to SA's for that duty, same reason, though often my SP101 ends up by the alarm clock just b/c its one of the last things I take off.

[hedgehorn]

Richo thanks for the link. I just have a ton of wheel weights so I was hoping that they werent too hard. I just started casting in the last two months so please excuse my ignorance. I will have to find a good source for pure lead in the near future. ;)

[Ricochet]

Single actions have a great grip for natural pointing. Especially with long barrels. I wouldn't feel handicapped using the Walker for close-up defensive purposes, though it's tricky for precision shooting. I've tried it out of curiosity in the large Bianchi X-15 shoulder holster I've had for 32 years, and it fits like it was made for it. Quite well concealed under a light nylon windbreaker. Drawing and thumbcocking while bringing it to aim are fast and natural. In practice I'll stick with the Super Blackhawk I bought that holster for. Biggest problem with a Walker for serious use is the occasional jam from the loading lever dropping. The impracticality of unloading a cap 'n' ball without firing is a handicap. And I've wondered if Pyrodex left loaded isn't corrosive. (It contains potassium perchlorate. Its residue after burning is loaded with potassium chloride and has to be cleaned out very quickly, or it'll cause bad rusting.) But it's a great fun toy!

[Ricochet]

Hedgehorn, a couple of great sources of soft lead are roofing sheet lead and X-ray room shielding sheet. Look for stuff from demolition or remodeling.

[lathesmith]

Ricochet, I measured a couple of my Lee 44 conical slugs, and they seem to run .448-.449 on the lowest band, and .452-.453 on the next band(and up). Even if your mold varies a bit from this, you should get a consistent .003 difference between the lower band and the rest of the slug.
I had forgotten how thin those driving bands are on these Lee BP conicals. They seem to work pretty well though.
Round balls or conicals out of wheelweights? Yeah, that would be tough to load, all right. Also, you probably wouldn't get the "bump up" effect that you get from softer lead, and this would be another negative. But the difficult loading is reason enough not to use WW for BP revolver loads.
lathesmith

[Ricochet]

Thanks for that, Lathesmith! If mine turn out to have the same dimensions, I'll have boolit seating difficulties with my .442" chambers, but they'll be fine if I do hone out the chambers. I'll just have to wait and see. Mould's supposed to be here Tuesday. I've got a busy week ahead, though.

[AZ-Stew]

Ricochet,

Sorry, I didn't get to this one in time. You could have saved a couple of bucks buying the mould from Midsouth. $18 and low change, vs the $20 and high change from Grafs.

Just for future reference.

Regards,

Stew

[hedgehorn]

I just bought a couple of molds and a whole bunch of other dies and a couple of conversion kits from Graffs mainly because they had everything in stock, They called today to confirm the order and since I bought over $150 they are including a free speer #13 manual. I think I found a new place to buy reloading stuff!

[Ricochet]

Thanks, Stew, but in my case I don't think that would've saved me. I'd have to pay TN sales tax, plus shipping at Midsouth. Total at Graf's was $24.50. If I'd had some other things to order, it would've gone on with the same $4.50 "handling and insurance fee." I can live with it, in any case.

What really got my goat today was finding where I could've bought the new camera I bought this week online for about $65 less than I paid at Wal-Mart, plus they don't take the sales tax. But having my son and his girlfriend here for the week I needed one right now, so I reckon it was worth it. (Wish I hadn't knocked the old one off a table!)

[ra_balke]

those old cap and ball guns were designed for round balls, and that is what works best in them.
I was always enamored by the concept of using bullets, but.... the truth is, balls are lighter, so use less lead, balls are regulated to the sights, and truth is, a round ball hits harder than any bullet, cause it has more surface area per it's weight, or somthing like that.

But, I also read an article about a couple of fellows from california who loaded their cap and ball Rugers with 40 grains of synthetic black powder, and a pure lead lee hollowpoint conical bullet, and shot them thru huge wild pigs at reasonable range, for one shot kills as I recall.

As I recall, they said they were getting 1200 fps so nearly power levels of the 41 mag.

xxx

Blab blab
I remember reading a story about Wild Bill Hickoc, in deadwood south dakota, he carried a 36 navy cap and ball, loaded with round balls, and he felt it quite adquite for any of the usual bad men....... till one day he ran into a VERY BAD MAN... so Hickock swaped out his 36 for a 44 army Colt, then he suckered the man into a street gunfight, Hickock dry gulched him and killed the man dead with one clean shot to the chest.

Lead was a 44 round ball.

have never felt under armed carrying a 44 rem, loaded with 40 gr 3f black powder, and a 456 diameter lead round ball. ,

[fatelvis]

I just tried Big Lube bullets (from Biglube.com) in my 5 1/2" stainless ROA . I lubed them with GreenSpeed, and sized them to .454" like suggested in the directions. I settled on 30 grns 777 for a powder charge. They grouped GREAT, averaging about 1.5" @ 25 yds from a rest, (better than Lee's boolits), although POI was a good 3" above the RB groups, I just used a 6 O'clock hold to hit the Bullseye! The grease groove is nice and deep/wide and showed a lube star after 12 shots. I see them as an excellent choice for hunting. Try 'em, you'll like 'em!

[Springfield]

fatelvis: Which ROA bullet did you use, the 155 grain or the 210? I have always wished that they had made the bases smaller so I could use them in my Piettas. As it is I resize the bases in my Lyman and run them that way. Aren't anymore accurate than balls but more weight for those knockdown targets.

[fatelvis]

http://http://www.biglube.com/BulletMolds.aspx?ProductID=20

The 210 grn version. I like loading pre-lubed bullets and not messing with the over ball grease.

[Ricochet]

Round balls certainly work well. I don't think it's correct that they were originally designed for round balls. I think the Paterson came with a conical mould, the Walkers and Dragoons too, and it was common to see Colt moulds for a round ball and a conical. As for sight regulation, my Walker shoots WAY high with either balls or conicals. Balls are the easiest to load, by far. I can't get the sprues centered, though. A ball of a diameter that will seat readily (up to .454", the .457s are a bit tough to shave down) doesn't have a whole lot of sealing surface on the side and I thought it might be contributing to the heavy leading problems I was having. Since discovering that pure lanolin or my homemade boolit lube work rather well at the leading prevention, I need to get a .454" ball mould and try that again. Balls are really quick loading (but so is a conical with a heel that slips into the chamber mouth, it doesn't get any easier or quicker than that.)

[Ricochet]

Fatelvis, the link above has to many http://s on the front end. Here's a corrected version. Thanks for the link! http://www.biglube.com/BulletMolds.aspx?ProductID=20

[lathesmith]

Ricochet, I checked the chambers of my 1858 Remmy and they mic out at .445-.446. Barrel diameter is about .451. If your chambers are .442 I'd say a bit of honing would get better perfomance from your piece.
lathesmith

[Ricochet]

Thanks, Lathesmith! Best I can measure with inside calipers, my chambers are .442" and my groove diameter is .447". I think honing would help.

[AZ-Stew]

Ricochet,

I hadn't considered the sales tax. I didn't look at your location before I posted.

BTW, you're in one of my favorite locations. There's nothing better than Ridgewood Barbeque! Been there, had that. Marvelous!

Regards,

Stew

[DLCTEX]

I load ww round balls(457 dia.) all the time in my ROA with no problems. The Ruger ram is strong. I also load 452 dia. 200 gr. swc from ww( as cast) with no problems. I once bent the cyl. rod by trying to force some boolits onto too much powder (took a lot of force to bend it), but I hammered it straight and am still using it. DALE

[Ricochet]

I LOVE the Ridgewood!

Last week my boy and his girlfriend were here from NYC and we were going to take them to the Ridgewood. My kid went ******* on me and didn't want to go. We had to get fried chicken from Bojangle's instead. :(

It was still great having them here, of course! And he enjoyed shooting the Walker under discussion, among others, while here.

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g166/SlidePicker/DSCF0162.jpg

[Ricochet]

Well, today I tried out my Lee 450-200-1R cap 'n' ball mould. Boolit heels measure .443". They come SO close to being finger seatable in my .442" chambers, but no cigar. I need to go look at hones...