New guy with a hoard of assembled HARVEY'S PRO-X-BORE SWAGED BULLETS

[wsmrto]

I have been collecting and reloading 20 years of so and picked up (with a dolly) a footlocker of many old 5c cigar boxes of the above assembled bullets in many calibers and weights: Such as 357 HP & solids 124 gr, 135 gr. and 158 gr. 44 Cal =.429 in several weights and styles and even 45 Cal. sized to .452 in 190 Gr., 220 Gr. and 240 Gr. Also have a very limited supply of HARVEY's Jugular swaged bullets. These are swaged bullets with a gas check that extends to just under the last grease ring. I have also the correct zinc washers in bags of 100 for the 38, 44 and 45 Cal. This hoard was from what was "Colorado Bullet Manufactures" back in the 1950 and early 60s. If anyone is interested in these ready to load// zinc washer installed find, I am going to make them available soon on this and several other forums. Plenty of info on Mr. Harvey's bullets available on the I-Net, just google it. I really need to find out if there is any interest in these before putting on the trader threads, so lots of comments will be appreciated. Thanks
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[lightload]

The swaged bullets with the "gas checks" are the old half jacket bullets from yesteryear. They had a reputation for severe leading despite the jacket. CH/4D's Dave Dawson may be the last expert standing on "Harvey zinc washer up the base" reloading, and he's probably the only CEO who will talk with a customer on the phone.

[runfiverun]

by soon you mean in 30 days and in 25 posts.
and by here and elsewhere you mean one or the other but not both..


I have a mold for these and the washers, you put the heated washer in the mold and cast through the sprue plate and the hole in the washer in the base of the mold.

[Blammer]

you'd likely be better off melting the pure, ditching the washers and selling the pure lead.

[wsmrto]

Actually I became a member back on 6 Mar 2014, so I do have the time, but as I normally did a lot of research on this very informative forum I never had the occasion to post. I have been getting casting equipment together and hope to do my initial casting later in June after some classes at the Trinidad JC, gunsmithing summer NRA courses. Hope to have accomplished my required post count soon as I have enjoyed being just a reader and will hopefully be welcome as a beginning caster soon. I have been purchasing cast bullets for years for 8X58 R, 43 Rem, 7X58, 6.5X55, 45 Colt and many others. There is much to learn from so many. Thanks,

[scottfire1957]

If I bought any, I'd treat them as COWW. I'd pay no more than what I can pay locally. Seeing as I'd have to remelt and remove the copper and zinc. Then try to figure out what the lead is.

Which, as has been stated, if you're gonna be casting, you could do.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

snip...
I really need to find out if there is any interest in these before putting on the trader threads, so lots of comments will be appreciated.

I can't imagine there is much interest [beyond collectors], as there are much better ways of doing cast boolits today. But I've been wrong before. Good Luck.

[mdi]

I've got a mold, somewhere for a bullet with a "tit" on the base. Instructions say to cast bullets, and seat zinc washers on base and "rivet" them in place. Don't remember method instructions say on how to rivet them. At the time just seating gas checks was so much easier for me I just didn't get around to trying the mold/zinc washers...

[ohland]

The swaged bullets with the "gas checks" are the old half jacket bullets from yesteryear. They had a reputation for severe leading despite the jacket.

Huh? A thousand pardons, but I have never come across the "Jugulars" having leading problems. Now the Prot-X-Bore boolits are another. The "sheradizing" process never seemed to work out.

Curious, though... Has anyone tried a copper or brass washer, like the zinc? I know of the wire wound boolits. The copper ring gas check boolits. ?

[runfiverun]

the jugulars were a zinc alloy boolit.
they relied on about 1 million fps of velocity and fairly close range as hunting bullets.

I ain't seen copper washers cheap enough to bother thinking about trying them.
when I do make these I put a cannelure on the body and tumble lube them.
I don't know why I bother except I got the stuff [shrug]

[wsmrto]

This is a Pic of the Jugulars, They have an "extended" Gas Check which is shown as attached. I have not fired any of the "Jugs" as I don't currently have a 44. From what I have read in several test and reviews that are available on google, many loved these back in the 50s & 60s, and many didn't want to get involved with them. Since I seem to have acquired them I will try them out and be back on to give some more results. I really do appreciate the comments, these will become available in the next month or so and if there are any members interested on this forum, Great. I Know the the original owner who swedged this stuff and many others must have thought they were worth shooting. I guess the original owner didn't have the proverbial warning that he wouldn't have time to shoot all his stock on hand, so it has been gathering dust since the Colorado Bullet Manufactures Inc. Castle Rock, CO full address was Just "Route 2". I grew up in the 60s in Denver and Castle Rock was nothing more than a few old huts at the old bridge that crossed the Platte river to go to the Rampart range road.
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[ohland]

the jugulars were a zinc alloy boolit.

Been a bit of confusion between the Prot-X-Bore boolit, which used a zinc washer, and the Jugular, which was a lead "core" swaged into a copper jacket.

Here is an article written at the time that the Jugular was released...

"Most Deadly Bullet" by Kent Bellah, Guns Magazine, May 1956 Pages 19-21, 45
http://www.gunsmagazine.com/1956issues/G0556.pdf

Loads for the "Jugular X-press" using a 117 grain bullet are on page 45.

"loads are in the pressure range of highpower rifles and charges should be carefully weighed. They should not be used in any gun not designed for such pressures, or one that is not in good mechanical condition. An undersize bore can raise pressure and if you have any doubt about the bore diameter it should be slugged and miked. If you have a yen to increase the charges, you are on your own. There will be no improvement and the gun may shake loose. Those loads can get truly hotter than a pistol. The 2400 charges are already lightly compressed and a small increase can cause more trouble than keeping a mistress."

140542

[ohland]

I have also the correct zinc washers in bags of 100 for the 38, 44 and 45 Cal.

What is the thickness, ODs, and IDs for the zinc washers? For those with Prot-X-Bore moulds, maybe a copper or brass washer might work.

http://www.hawkbullets.com/Prot-X-Bore.htm

http://www.hawkbullets.com/swage-it.htm

[runfiverun]

if you go a little later in time they discuss a jugular made from zinc alloy [zamack?]
and they run on the same high velocity principle.

I have the tooling to make the long and short jacket bullets too, high velocity is not really their forte,
accurate enough for sure but so is the ones made in the same dies without the jackets.
many didn't like them because the soft lead would set-back and create lead streaks down the barrel which the jacket without a scraper [like a gas check has or a groove to put it in] had no way to clean up any deposited lead so it just ironed it out into the barrel.

now if you keep the velocity's of the jacketed ones in check and launch them properly [so you don't have that set-back] you can have good results both on paper and on game animals.
an alloy harder than pure lead also helps as you start pushing things.

[Mk42gunner]

This may be a stupid question, but would tumble lubing these bullets help prevent leading? Or would it be just another exercise in futility?

Robert

[lotech]

At one time, I had a good bit of Kent Bellah's swaging equipment along with his (Harvey's) Lakeville Arms stuff. Some of it appeared to be unused and there were duplicates of some items. I spent considerable time experimenting with most everything you all have mentioned. Some things worked surprisingly well and produced accurate bullets. Some didn't. Without a review of my old notes, I don't remember a lot of specifics. However, I do remember all of this as being quite time-consuming and a lot of trouble to get an end product that was seldom, if ever, any better than something that could be produced using more efficient and less costly methods.

This is not intended as criticism of anyone interested in experimenting with the less conventional ways of making bullets. Some of you have found, as I did, it can turn into a captivating project - for a while, at least.

There is a write-up in HANDLOADER #253, "Different Ways to Make Handgun Bullets". While not a great article, it contains some general information related to the commentaries on this thread.

[runfiverun]

it doesn't hurt to tumble lube them.
that's what I do when I don't use the washer and just swage them with a flat base.

[ohland]

if you go a little later in time they discuss a jugular made from zinc alloy [zamack?]
and they run on the same high velocity principle.

Uhhh... OK, I'd buy that for a dollar... Wonder if anyone used Kirkite? Amazing how some articles had an LEO praising the Jugulars, nowadays that would probably be grounds for excessive force lawsuit, or some bilge...

[ohland]

Some things worked surprisingly well and produced accurate bullets. Some didn't.

Consider the state of the art in the 50s and 60s. Folks were still perfecting mass produced jacketed bullets. So these helped to usher in the bullets we use today. All that extra fiddlin and diddlin was, at the time, a reasonable way to turn out reasonably accurate jacketed bullets.

You've come a long way, baby....

PS. No, I do not smoke.

[runfiverun]

forgot about the [Tarleton?] adds till I just read that.
and then I had a mental image flash-back of some gold colored bell-bottoms and a casual position on a bar stool. :lol:

[dondiego]

Virginia Slims!

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I generally trust what Corbin say about swaging bullets. But they make some quite extreme claims for their version of the base washer bullet. It may be significant that their washer is concave.

They claim, for example, that the user can dispense with lube altogether, which seems to be taking optimism a bit far. I can't see why either washer or half jacket bullets, with a lube groove, would be any worse than ordinary gas checks. But I doubt if they would be any better.

http://www.corbins.com/lead.htm#bgs

[ohland]

some quite extreme claims for their version of the base washer bullet.
http://www.corbins.com/lead.htm#bgs

"The disk rotates with the rifling, regardless of whether the body of the bullet skids or fails to turn in the rifling, and thus seals the bore against powder gas (unlike a gas check, which is crimped on the surface of the bullet and cannot turn separately from it while in the bore). "

No reason why the disk wouldn't rotate with the rifling. I'll give 'em that. Bullet skid or fail to turn in rifling... If your boolit is skidding or fails to turn in rifling, either it is being driven way too hard, is grossly undersized, or is too soft or...

How having a disk which is free to rotate with the rifling is supposed to fix severe boolit failure is a mystery. The boolit is not being stabilized sufficiently by the rifling, and whatever comes out the muzzle is a soup sandwich...

How is a gas check that is firmly crimped on AND of the correct sized to diameter, a bad thing? To me, the GC on a marginal boolit is somewhat better than the BG because the crimp lets it grip the boolit and provide SOME transmission of rotational energy from the rifling to the boolit. Again, if there is skidding or failure to turn means the boolit is going to fail no matter what the base is, PB, GC, or BG....

[lotech]

Some of the earlier zinc washers were stamped out with loose tolerances. While oversized ones probably didn't hurt anything, undersized washers served no purpose except to get a free ride down the bore. Haven't tried Corbin or other later models, but would guess they are uniform in size.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

"The disk rotates with the rifling, regardless of whether the body of the bullet skids or fails to turn in the rifling, and thus seals the bore against powder gas (unlike a gas check, which is crimped on the surface of the bullet and cannot turn separately from it while in the bore). "

No reason why the disk wouldn't rotate with the rifling. I'll give 'em that. Bullet skid or fail to turn in rifling... If your boolit is skidding or fails to turn in rifling, either it is being driven way too hard, is grossly undersized, or is too soft or...

How having a disk which is free to rotate with the rifling is supposed to fix severe boolit failure is a mystery. The boolit is not being stabilized sufficiently by the rifling, and whatever comes out the muzzle is a soup sandwich...

How is a gas check that is firmly crimped on AND of the correct sized to diameter, a bad thing? To me, the GC on a marginal boolit is somewhat better than the BG because the crimp lets it grip the boolit and provide SOME transmission of rotational energy from the rifling to the boolit. Again, if there is skidding or failure to turn means the boolit is going to fail no matter what the base is, PB, GC, or BG....

Yes, that was one of my misgivings. If the bullet isn't stabilized by its spin, what is the point of protecting the base of it? Besides, I doubt if the washer would spin independently. Also I think if lead contacts bore, lubricant is here to stay.