View Full Version : APP vs. Black part 2

05-17-2015, 03:38 PM
Just got back from the range, tested a 45-70 & 38-55 rounds.

Today we tried new boolits in both, the 45-70 grouped much better with larger, heavier boolits, the 38-55 not so much.

In working with APP FFG some notes.............

The FFG does not meter well, grains much the size of FG black, real large. Weighed each charge, and the powder would not go thru the opening of a RCBS funnel. Found tapping funnel did two things, one got the powder to go thru funnel and settled the powder in the case, that worked out well.Compressed the powder about 3/8". That measurement from level of powder before being compressed. Now the folks at APP not to compress the powder. I checked on the APP site, it recommended 54 gr. ( for the 45-70) I compared 10 volume measurements @ 70 gr. /weight and 54gr. was a good average. This powder is very sensitive to vibration, and if the volume measure is tapped, one can get as much as 8-10 gr./ weight variation. When loading, I was using a LEE Perfect Powder measure , and the weights were all over the place while I was loading. (I use it to drop a some what lighter charge, then bring it up to the correct weights.) Well, if one does not compress the charge with APP , there is no way one will get the boolit seated,in a 45-70 case and still fit in the gun.

They also state that with APP one needs no special lube. In fact they state NO lubes are needed. I went ahead and lubed with LEE ALOX any way.
At 50 yards, the grouping with the 45 wasn't too bad, the 38 is another story but the thing noteworthy is the LEADING!!! Massive leading! I pulled chunks out of the 45, 1/4" long wrapped 1/4 of the way around the patch, with more the rest of the way around. It came out literally in sheets. The 38-55 was not quite as bad, but it's smaller.

The boolits are for both guns 20:1 lead and are both .002 over bore size, both with a .030 wad underneath the slug.

As far as the black goes, the 38-55 was not included in this little test.

My 45-70 was loaded with 70gr. / weight FFG Goex, 500 gr. Lyman #457125. Both the APP & Black loadings were compressed to the same level, same boolit, and card wad. SPG Used as lube for black loadings. The grouping for the black was 5 shot one hole groups, the APP was spread out 3".
The black showed little to no leading, blow tube was used. Blow tube seemed to make little difference with APP. ( 1 shot with APP/ALOX would massively lead barrel)

I have NOT had a leading problem with cowboy shooting with APP/ALOX, but there again, the loads are not compressed much & we are shooting wheel weights for boolits.

I hope this sheds a little light, I know I learned a bunch today.
Other than bringing home a few wood ticks, was a good day.


country gent
05-17-2015, 05:05 PM
The APP may be enough diffrent pressure curve or temp to be causing leading. Another is tumble lubed may not carry enough lube for that sharps long barrel. Most rifle barrels now are 20"-24" not the 28"-34" of the old single shots. Where was the leading located in the barrel? Did you look for a lube star at the muzzle, if so did it have one? You should have a lube star on the muzzle after 3-5 rounds or so. Lack of lube hard founilg soft bullets can all become a factor. A friend leaded his barrel a year ago He was pulling lead chunks / strips in his sharps. I cleaned it after one stage and it was in the last 8: or so of the barrel. I asked what he changed and He only put lube in one groove of that batch of bullets. Not enough for 34" of barrel with black powder. A chronograph may reveal som,e things also.

05-17-2015, 05:14 PM
The leading was pillar to post. No lube star, not with the tumble lube. APP Discourages using lubes, saying it may affect the powder.
I'm not getting a "star" with my 45-70 either, and yes, I put lube in ALL the grooves. The blow tube is working well, especially when I don't brush my teeth!!8-)


12-16-2015, 10:34 PM
I know I'm pretty late to the party but I've been playing around a little with app FFF in my .357 revolvers and have been pretty successful with powder coated bullets. I know it's only a small test but I've fired 30 rounds without issue so far. On the app website they recommend to compress the powder .125, so that's what I did and found it to be right around 17.5 grains by weight.I have had good luck so far. Unfortunately I'm out of powder at the moment but when I get some more I'll continue testing.