I feel...soiled.

[rintinglen]

Yesterday, to comply with the hair-brained idiocy that passes for game laws here in California--damn you, lying Audobon weasels--I loaded up a box of Barnes 200 grain solid copper bullets. Each bullet cost me just over a dollar after shipping was included! Zoikes! Two boxes of these bullets would pay for an NOE 2 cavity mold, or a lee 2 cavity mold and a LEE 10 pound furnace. Who says casting doesn't pay?

[mdi]

When the "no lead" law was enacted, I did as much research as I could on line. I found no empirical facts regarding the buzzard (CA Condor) deaths supposedly related to lead poisoning. My findings told me it was just another "greenie/tree hugger/PETA" scam forced upon citizens by paid politicians. One of the many reasons I escaped CA...

[rintinglen]

My sentence is up Feb. 21, 2020. Virginia, here I come.

[pworley1]

I feel for you.

[bhn22]

Use a heavy mould, and cast with hallmarked pewter, or 95/5 leadfree solder. It should be lead free.

Thumb your nose at the gun controlistas. This ban isn't for the birdies, or the chillens.

[44man]

I would not move to VA either, Tax nut liberals. Horse people that will not let you hunt.

[leadman]

Here in Az there was a x-ray picture of an animal shot with a rifle and it showed all the bullet fragments. From this x-ray they determined that the condors must be ingesting the lead. There was no description of the ammo or gun used so it is possible it was varmint type ammo.

My thoughts are the condors are eating all the junk left by the tourists to the Grand Canyon area and getting sick.

If lead bullets are banned here I'll break out the 71 Mauser, tell them it is my only hunting rifle and lead free are not available.

[44man]

You will NEVER find a cast boolit from my guns in any animal. I don't care how big it is, there will be two holes. Condors die from eating liberals. End of story, they are poison.

[OuchHot!]

When those laws were first considered a person in our industry provided a "white paper" telling fish and game that there were no financial or technical reasons that hunters could not go lead free. He presented the technology as mature, sensible, and ready to roll. His name was Barnes. Those laws have nothing to do with saving Condors or anything else. They are just another political agenda. The buffalo were assassinated by the hundreds of thousands in a short period using large wads of lead and the bodies left to scavengers. None of them went extinct. Lead is very common in the earth and is usually found in a form more bioavailable than the alloy we use in boolits. It is just bulls#$t.

[Yodogsandman]

I heard that there's only about a dozen or so condors left that they're trying to save. Any truth to this? Maybe they should all be protected in zoos.

[olafhardt]

Various species have gone extinct throughout history. What arrogance to think humans control the world. The tail does not wag the dog.

[OuchHot!]

I believe that you are correct. The condor is actually extinct and the likelihood that it can be resurrected is very limited. The genetic diversity of the remaining "population" is simply not what it needs to be for a viable wild population. The left wing has successfully covered up the fact that extinction is a natural process. The condor was done 50yrs ago. It is just politics. There have been (feeble) comments from biologists that the condor actually cannot be saved due to this. Just after the spotted owl got logging shut down, the left wing admitted that the owl occupied habitats far beyond the old growth forests and was genetically indistinguishable from populations all the way down S. America. It was just a political agenda. If they really had wanted to save the condor, they would have forbid the population encroachment on habitat. That would help the drought prospects considerably. But that would cost votes. I am a member of the Nature Conservancy which is the only Science based conservation organization that I know of.......this isn't about conservation...it is left wing politics.

[mdi]

From what I remember is that the CA Condor was going extinct, not from eating gut-piles with lead, but from the lack of natural habitat. I believe I read also that some species have become extinct for no apparent reason, and the buzzard was on it's way with/without human intervention...

[Toymaker]

rintinglen, where in Virginia? We'll welcome you. Lots of ranges, clubs and shooting opportunities depending on your shooting preferences. Admittedly permission to hunt can be dicey, but doable.

[N4AUD]

I would not move to VA either, Tax nut liberals. Horse people that will not let you hunt.
That is not true. Not trying to be disagreeable, but that is just plain false.

[N4AUD]

rintinglen, where in Virginia? We'll welcome you. Lots of ranges, clubs and shooting opportunities depending on your shooting preferences. Admittedly permission to hunt can be dicey, but doable.
Here in SWVA there is plenty of public land to hunt. NOVA and that area, it's like Toymaker says. People see Norfolk or NOVA and think they've seen Virginia, when in fact most of the state is nothing like that.

[Texantothecore]

The Condor's range is exactly that of the lead mining area in Ca. There are hundreds of old mines and slag piles that the birds can visit. The dept of conservation has said that the lead contamination is left over leaded gasoline residue but it is definitely not from bullets as the lead has a different isotope than the lead used for ammo.

It is all fiction, from start to finish.

[Petrol & Powder]

My sentence is up Feb. 21, 2020. Virginia, here I come.
Do you want me to set aside some lead for your arrival in Virginia?

[RogerDat]

I heard that there's only about a dozen or so condors left that they're trying to save. Any truth to this? Maybe they should all be protected in zoos.
Actual numbers are 425 with slightly less than 1/2 in a captive breeding program. The species was down to 22 wild birds at one point when it was decided to bring them all into a captive breeding program. The 209 in the wild are from that breeding program.

The following is not going to be popular but.... what the heck I'm not trying to get a date with any of you ;-)

http://www.peregrinefund.org/docs/pdf/research-library/2012/2012-Rideout-california-condors.pdf is a chunk of decently done and documented research into what kills California Condors. Lead, trash, and power lines, along with loss of habitat all play a part. With clear scientific evidence supporting that lead bullets compose a major threat. Percentages of deaths from lead poisoning are admittedly off since birds that die in more remote locations are not found but of the dead ones found lead toxicity is present or a direct cause of death in many. Also some are treated for lead poisoning and don't die.

Not liking to buy expensive and probably not as effective non-lead ammo is clearly ones right but to state there is no basis for doing so requires more than claiming a liberal agenda and bringing forward incorrect facts.

Simple causative chain, not everything that is shot is recovered, animals are gutted in the field with bullets or bullet fragments in them, condors have stomach acid that is especially good at dissolving lead. The lead found in condors matches the spectrum of lead from bullets. We all know the alloys used for that lead, when a mass spectrometer finds that mix in the blood of condors it gets somewhat hard to support the idea that lead ammunition is not part of the problem. A .22 bullet swallowed and in the gullet of a bird dying of lead poisoning is also fairly indicative. Findings that since lead ammo was banned from hunting the lead blood levels of all carrion birds have fallen also seems like it might be a correlation. Finding that captive birds away from hunting don't have elevated lead and those out where hunting exists did might also support a causative relationship between bullets a condor lead poisoning.

Trash is a big problem for the nestlings, why the parents bring back or regurgitate trash items is unknown. But those trash items such as a zinc lock washer or bottle caps will kill the baby birds. Mortality rate is around 1/3 since the start of the whole program (started in the 80's) but has been steadily falling as things are learned and adjustments are made. Having fallen fairly low currently it might just be getting to the point of sustainability.

Maybe folks don't care if Condors live or die out. Maybe the condor can not be brought back to a self sustaining wild population or maybe it can. What does not seem supportable is the idea that it is just some liberal plot or garbage science bent on taking away "our" bullets. Or inevitable either, getting from 22 to 425 indicates it might be possible IF the mortality rate can be reduced for the ones in the wild. Hunting without lead seems likely to help. If it does nothing more than give support to the efforts of more liberal folks it can't hurt from a public relations standpoint. As a group hunters have a reputation as generally being good stewards of the wilderness and concerned conservationists. Mostly deserved and earned. No point in chucking that away over having to hunt without lead. Or if one is going to then do it with solid science not PR talking points. Hard to say that birds that are found to be eating lead in carrion are not being harmed while we all wash our hands and wear gloves when handling it.

For the many people (and voters) between the far left and hunters those Giant California Condors are "cool" so being in the group that does not care if they all die and being unwilling to put up with some regulations in an attempt to save them is going to NOT look good to all those people. Might be good to have them think of you as reasonable so when you really need them to listen to prevent much worse laws they might not have already written you off. Who knows you might want them to listen when you point out the FBI homicide statistics show almost no homicides are committed with any rifle, let alone so called "assault" rifles.

[Tenbender]

I would not move to VA either, Tax nut liberals. Horse people that will not let you hunt.
Hunting is great here in Va. The horse hugger's have all the federal and state land tied up so you can't use anything with a motor on it. I guess there paying more tax than me ? The horses are tearing up more trails than a 4X4 ever did. They rut them out so bad you can hardly walk on them.
We do have private land that most can hunt if you just ask the landowner.

139526

[Handloader109]

One report stated that lead was being ingested from lead paint in nesting area. It ain't from eating lead bullets from game killed and not picked up . if that was the case, there would be NO carrion birds in the country. Narrative must fit the cause. Liberal agenda. And just like the snail darter, who the heck cares? Sorry but a few hundred birds don't matter.

[phaessler]

Here in SWVA there is plenty of public land to hunt. NOVA and that area, it's like Toymaker says. People see Norfolk or NOVA and think they've seen Virginia, when in fact most of the state is nothing like that.

Exactly.....and unfortunately they vote different in NOVA too..
But plenty of places to hunt and shoot. Oh and taxes, they are horrible:kidding:

[Fishman]

Actual numbers are 425 with slightly less than 1/2 in a captive breeding program. The species was down to 22 wild birds at one point when it was decided to bring them all into a captive breeding program. The 209 in the wild are from that breeding program.

The following is not going to be popular but.... what the heck I'm not trying to get a date with any of you ;-)

http://www.peregrinefund.org/docs/pdf/research-library/2012/2012-Rideout-california-condors.pdf is a chunk of decently done and documented research into what kills California Condors. Lead, trash, and power lines, along with loss of habitat all play a part. With clear scientific evidence supporting that lead bullets compose a major threat. Percentages of deaths from lead poisoning are admittedly off since birds that die in more remote locations are not found but of the dead ones found lead toxicity is present or a direct cause of death in many. Also some are treated for lead poisoning and don't die.

Not liking to buy expensive and probably not as effective non-lead ammo is clearly ones right but to state there is no basis for doing so requires more than claiming a liberal agenda and bringing forward incorrect facts.

Simple causative chain, not everything that is shot is recovered, animals are gutted in the field with bullets or bullet fragments in them, condors have stomach acid that is especially good at dissolving lead. The lead found in condors matches the spectrum of lead from bullets. We all know the alloys used for that lead, when a mass spectrometer finds that mix in the blood of condors it gets somewhat hard to support the idea that lead ammunition is not part of the problem. A .22 bullet swallowed and in the gullet of a bird dying of lead poisoning is also fairly indicative. Findings that since lead ammo was banned from hunting the lead blood levels of all carrion birds have fallen also seems like it might be a correlation. Finding that captive birds away from hunting don't have elevated lead and those out where hunting exists did might also support a causative relationship between bullets a condor lead poisoning.

Trash is a big problem for the nestlings, why the parents bring back or regurgitate trash items is unknown. But those trash items such as a zinc lock washer or bottle caps will kill the baby birds. Mortality rate is around 1/3 since the start of the whole program (started in the 80's) but has been steadily falling as things are learned and adjustments are made. Having fallen fairly low currently it might just be getting to the point of sustainability.

Maybe folks don't care if Condors live or die out. Maybe the condor can not be brought back to a self sustaining wild population or maybe it can. What does not seem supportable is the idea that it is just some liberal plot or garbage science bent on taking away "our" bullets. Or inevitable either, getting from 22 to 425 indicates it might be possible IF the mortality rate can be reduced for the ones in the wild. Hunting without lead seems likely to help. If it does nothing more than give support to the efforts of more liberal folks it can't hurt from a public relations standpoint. As a group hunters have a reputation as generally being good stewards of the wilderness and concerned conservationists. Mostly deserved and earned. No point in chucking that away over having to hunt without lead. Or if one is going to then do it with solid science not PR talking points. Hard to say that birds that are found to be eating lead in carrion are not being harmed while we all wash our hands and wear gloves when handling it.

For the many people (and voters) between the far left and hunters those Giant California Condors are "cool" so being in the group that does not care if they all die and being unwilling to put up with some regulations in an attempt to save them is going to NOT look good to all those people. Might be good to have them think of you as reasonable so when you really need them to listen to prevent much worse laws they might not have already written you off. Who knows you might want them to listen when you point out the FBI homicide statistics show almost no homicides are committed with any rifle, let alone so called "assault" rifles.

Don't bring any science or logic to this discussion, nobody on this site wants to hear it. Much easier to wring your hands and pronounce it a "liberal agenda". I've been down this road before with waterfowl and lead shot and learned my lesson. Best to just keep casting boolits and smile.

[RogerDat]

One report stated that lead was being ingested from lead paint in nesting area. It ain't from eating lead bullets from game killed and not picked up . if that was the case, there would be NO carrion birds in the country. Narrative must fit the cause. Liberal agenda. And just like the snail darter, who the heck cares? Sorry but a few hundred birds don't matter.

Except that Condors have a stomach acid that is really good at dissolving metals, much better than other carrion birds. Would love to see a link to the report on lead paint in nesting area. I'll read it if you post it. You might want to read the link I posted, pretty compelling "Narrative" fitting the cause.

Your opinion that a few hundred birds don't matter is certainly yours to hold. Not one I agree with but you are entitled to it. Not one that the general public tends to hold either. That was sort of my point. It takes good solid evidence and credibility to sway opinions. If people think you just don't care you lose the credibility to get the solid evidence you present examined.

Condors, lead free bullets, and California are all about as popular around here as Budweiser and bean farts in a space suit. But as far as I can tell the scientific evidence supports the idea that lead bullets are the primary cause of lead poisoning condor deaths. The lead wheel weight thing I generally don't get and have yet to find any science to support banning them other than a general claim that they are "bad in the waste stream". I could see how they might concentrate from storm drains, but as others have pointed out there are some naturally occurring sources of lead and so far have not found any empirical evidence of WW's causing problem or banning them solving said problem.

So jokes about Condors sucking up WW's like an Electrolux seem to me to be appropriate in the context of WW ban.

[rsrocket1]

So we can't hunt with lead bullets in Condor regions in California? I was wondering what Condor tastes like.
Maybe a cross between Dodo and Passenger Pigeon?

I heard Barney was the reason dinosaurs went extinct. They said "we're related to you?, excuse me while I go and kill myself"

[dragon813gt]

The next step is going to be a ban on the solid copper bullets. Copper is more toxic to mammals than lead. Animals go extinct for a reason. Unfortunately human expansion into an animal's natural habitat is going to play a large role in it. Let nature take it's course.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Some years back there was a rather vigorous discussion of the condor studies and the findings in the political forum. Those wanting to gripe now based on simple dislike should search it out for a good bit more information as to what the matter was about and how things pertaining were related. Some of the comments posted here now just were not very good. Good gripes have substance.

BvT

[NavyVet1959]

The condors fed on the large mammals that have long been extinct. They manage to survive mainly because of the non-native species that we have introduced into the California ecosystem (i.e. cattle and such). Like the panda, they are an evolutionary dead end. All we can do is slow the inevitable while inconveniencing ourselves in the process.

[ascast]

RogerDat well written, I'm with you 100%. Some critters have very aggressive digestive juices.
It not like hunters don't have another option. But what about the coins and trash they eat?
I guess we do what we can.
Did ya ever see the xrays of Kennedy's brain? Tiny lead fragmentas all over, like a 222 Rem, NOT a hard ball Carcano.

[Blackwater]

Interesting discussion. We go to extreme lengths to save maybe 200 birds while federal funds go to kill a million children before or during their birth. Very interesting indeed! Our morals, ethics and philosophies seem to be eating their own selves!

[dtknowles]

The next step is going to be a ban on the solid copper bullets. Copper is more toxic to mammals than lead. Animals go extinct for a reason. Unfortunately human expansion into an animal's natural habitat is going to play a large role in it. Let nature take it's course.

What do you mean by "let nature take it's course"? Is it natural for humans to continue to expand our range or is it natural for humans to discuss possible constraints to the expansion of our range and maybe even vacate land previously occupied to leave it in a state less affected by humans.

You said "Unfortunately human expansion into an animal's natural habitat is going to play a large role in it." that implies you think human expansion is negative so why not support a stop to this expansion and reverse that process. Leave more land unoccupied by humans. It is a choice not and inevitability. A long time ago one of my heros, Teddy Roosevelt established the National Parks to preserve some areas, a wise decision that should continue to be expanded but I like nature and wildlife better than I like most people.

Tim

[dtknowles]

Interesting discussion. We go to extreme lengths to save maybe 200 birds while federal funds go to kill a million children before or during their birth. Very interesting indeed! Our morals, ethics and philosophies seem to be eating their own selves!

The most likely cause of human extinction will be our self destruction by over population or cataclysmic political unrest as a result of conflict for resources. A few million abortions a year is no threat to our continued existence. Saving a few hundred rare birds is not a big deal either. How many Ruger 10-22's would you sacrifice to save one original Henry Rifle?

Tim

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Actual numbers are 425 with slightly less than 1/2 in a captive breeding program. The species was down to 22 wild birds at one point when it was decided to bring them all into a captive breeding program. The 209 in the wild are from that breeding program.

The following is not going to be popular but.... what the heck I'm not trying to get a date with any of you ;-)



Yes, the evidence you present is pretty compelling, and it was compelling before you presented it. There is no question that the decline in numbers of the condor is due to various forms of human pressure, and that lead from bullets and shot is a major factor. Besides the rarity of shot exiting from the body, the snowflake effect of modern bullets, even jacketed ones with an open point or base, is well documented in forensic pathology. The same applies to lead shot and waterfowl.

A comparable cumulative effect has drastically affected avian predators in the past. Small birds don't build up enough pesticide residues in the body to do them serious harm. But falcons, which accumulate the pesticides from many small birds, did. It didn't kill them, but it made the eggshells thin enough to break in the nest. Humans, or at least non-cannibals, experience no such buildup with lead, and swallowed pellets normally pass through our system in the course of nature. But potentially fatal lead poisoning is a rare but well documented result of lead shot lodging in the appendix. Darwin suggested that the appendix is a vestige of a supplementary digestive organ which was needed in the days when we lived largely on leaves. That is pretty close to a gizzard, in which alien solids are meant to lodge.

Of course they do pick up stones to grind food down in the gizzard and it sounds like they may have something of the corvid instinct for unusual bright objects. The way to do that is by reducing littering, and especially littering near the nest site, water sources and the gutting of shot animals, since carrion birds don't land in many other places. The chances that they go looking for lead-mine tailings or the decreasing pollution from leaded gasoline are remote in the extreme. It's the firearms!

Who says there wasn't a drastic decline in the numbers of carrion birds on the Great Plains in the days of the near-extermination of the buffalo? With that sort of free food available, there would surely have been a migration from other areas, just like urban foxes and raccoons have followed the food. But where are replacement condors to migrate from?

One of the biggest political cards hunters and shooters have to play is concern for the environment. If they take an aggressively superficial view of environmental protection (and see above for some of the aggression), it is throwing sympathy away, just as sure as saying "The witches made my cow go dry."

[MaryB]

And from reading the article the main source of lead was SHOTGUN PELLETS and not lead bullets. Plus I recognize 2 of the authors as rabid anti-lead bullet "researchers" who have been know to stretch the truth about the actual findings. One was here in MN pushing a ban because bald eagles were being found with lead. Lead picked up from hunting streams and lakes were lead shot was used for a very long time!

And a study was done on deer carcasses here to determine if the meat was safe to donate to food shelves. Anti-hunters were trying to block it claiming it would be lead contaminated and they found otherwise! In deer more often than not the bullet/shotgun slug passes through the animal or ends up under the skin on the side opposite where it was shot.

They need to study the gut piles left to see of lead is really present. Send samples to a laboratory that does not know what they are from or for. Otherwise the anti-lead bias creeps in and the studies are junk.



Actual numbers are 425 with slightly less than 1/2 in a captive breeding program. The species was down to 22 wild birds at one point when it was decided to bring them all into a captive breeding program. The 209 in the wild are from that breeding program.

The following is not going to be popular but.... what the heck I'm not trying to get a date with any of you ;-)

http://www.peregrinefund.org/docs/pdf/research-library/2012/2012-Rideout-california-condors.pdf is a chunk of decently done and documented research into what kills California Condors. Lead, trash, and power lines, along with loss of habitat all play a part. With clear scientific evidence supporting that lead bullets compose a major threat. Percentages of deaths from lead poisoning are admittedly off since birds that die in more remote locations are not found but of the dead ones found lead toxicity is present or a direct cause of death in many. Also some are treated for lead poisoning and don't die.

Not liking to buy expensive and probably not as effective non-lead ammo is clearly ones right but to state there is no basis for doing so requires more than claiming a liberal agenda and bringing forward incorrect facts.

Simple causative chain, not everything that is shot is recovered, animals are gutted in the field with bullets or bullet fragments in them, condors have stomach acid that is especially good at dissolving lead. The lead found in condors matches the spectrum of lead from bullets. We all know the alloys used for that lead, when a mass spectrometer finds that mix in the blood of condors it gets somewhat hard to support the idea that lead ammunition is not part of the problem. A .22 bullet swallowed and in the gullet of a bird dying of lead poisoning is also fairly indicative. Findings that since lead ammo was banned from hunting the lead blood levels of all carrion birds have fallen also seems like it might be a correlation. Finding that captive birds away from hunting don't have elevated lead and those out where hunting exists did might also support a causative relationship between bullets a condor lead poisoning.

Trash is a big problem for the nestlings, why the parents bring back or regurgitate trash items is unknown. But those trash items such as a zinc lock washer or bottle caps will kill the baby birds. Mortality rate is around 1/3 since the start of the whole program (started in the 80's) but has been steadily falling as things are learned and adjustments are made. Having fallen fairly low currently it might just be getting to the point of sustainability.

Maybe folks don't care if Condors live or die out. Maybe the condor can not be brought back to a self sustaining wild population or maybe it can. What does not seem supportable is the idea that it is just some liberal plot or garbage science bent on taking away "our" bullets. Or inevitable either, getting from 22 to 425 indicates it might be possible IF the mortality rate can be reduced for the ones in the wild. Hunting without lead seems likely to help. If it does nothing more than give support to the efforts of more liberal folks it can't hurt from a public relations standpoint. As a group hunters have a reputation as generally being good stewards of the wilderness and concerned conservationists. Mostly deserved and earned. No point in chucking that away over having to hunt without lead. Or if one is going to then do it with solid science not PR talking points. Hard to say that birds that are found to be eating lead in carrion are not being harmed while we all wash our hands and wear gloves when handling it.

For the many people (and voters) between the far left and hunters those Giant California Condors are "cool" so being in the group that does not care if they all die and being unwilling to put up with some regulations in an attempt to save them is going to NOT look good to all those people. Might be good to have them think of you as reasonable so when you really need them to listen to prevent much worse laws they might not have already written you off. Who knows you might want them to listen when you point out the FBI homicide statistics show almost no homicides are committed with any rifle, let alone so called "assault" rifles.

[olafhardt]

RodgerDat. You have posted some very interesting stuff. The problem is I have to take it with a grain of salt. How many of the people who compiled this data would lose their grants if they did not find lead in condors. I once had to bid on a mercury clean up project. This project required discharge specs lower than any test I could find. I refused to bid. I expect that the condor studies required lead readings in the parts per billion range. After a career in chemical and environmental work I just don't trust anybodies ppb analysis. During my career the greatest whores I ever encountered were scientists seeking grants. I am not calling the information you gave false. I am just saying I have no idea if it is true or not. I often wonder what would happen to NASA's funding if they did not find evidence of global warming. I often regret being so sceptical and cynical but I can't help it.

[Lead Fred]

I will shoot what I want, where I want, and what ever I want.

I am an American. I will live and die by the constitution.

If a law is not constitutional, then is only a regulation, which I go care about.

No they wont put me in jail, thats for criminals

They will have to kill me, because after all I am the enemy

Lead has been outlawed here, we dont pay them no mind.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Well, only when they're looking.

[303Guy]

Here in New Zealand, lead shot is banned near water ways. Not a general ban, only near water. The reason is that water fowl pick up lead shot and ingest it and it kills them. We respect the conversation laws (mostly or at least, most of us do).

I suspect that the California liberals do have an agenda which is basically anti-gun, anti-hunting among other things. You know, the Bambi syndrome. I do not know this as a fact, it's just a suspicion. However, I can see how lead containing bullets and boolits can leave dangerous lead residue in offal that condors would likely ingest. In my books, conservation takes priority over my desire to shoot hunt with lead boolits. I would hope that others share my view. I do however, draw the line at banning lead from shooting ranges where no condor is going to mine the berms for lead to chew on. I doubt any such ban exists - does it?

I like to think of hunters as nature loving people, hell bent on preserving the source of their passion. That would include wildlife in general and endangered wildlife in particular. Sadly though, there are people who really do not seem to care. I know of a few. These guys had a hunting resource that could have been a long term thing but they shot it out in a few months, leaving nothing for even the short term future. They had no regard for my ongoing shooting either. I was part of the original deal.

[dudel]

And from reading the article the main source of lead was SHOTGUN PELLETS and not lead bullets. Plus I recognize 2 of the authors as rabid anti-lead bullet "researchers" who have been know to stretch the truth about the actual findings. One was here in MN pushing a ban because bald eagles were being found with lead. Lead picked up from hunting streams and lakes were lead shot was used for a very long time!

And a study was done on deer carcasses here to determine if the meat was safe to donate to food shelves. Anti-hunters were trying to block it claiming it would be lead contaminated and they found otherwise! In deer more often than not the bullet/shotgun slug passes through the animal or ends up under the skin on the side opposite where it was shot.

They need to study the gut piles left to see of lead is really present. Send samples to a laboratory that does not know what they are from or for. Otherwise the anti-lead bias creeps in and the studies are junk.

Like they said back when I studied statistics. Numbers are like loose women; once you get them down, you can do whatever you want with them.

Then, follow the money and see who paid for the study.

[44man]

We have so many deer around here it is silly and they have been getting smaller. It does not seem to matter how many hunters take.
However it is the lost deer I find that bothers me. Then all that are killed on the roads.
There are poor hunters everywhere of course and most can't shoot either.
The fella down at the other end of the road has poacher problems and once in a while the game dept puts out robo deer.
The creeps shoot a deer in his field and quickly cut out the best parts and leave the rest to rot.
It is very easy to get a place to hunt here, just ask and respect property. Why they have to poach does not make sense.
It is very hard to find a place to hunt in VA so most are on public lands.

[dtknowles]

RodgerDat. You have posted some very interesting stuff. The problem is I have to take it with a grain of salt. How many of the people who compiled this data would lose their grants if they did not find lead in condors. I once had to bid on a mercury clean up project. This project required discharge specs lower than any test I could find. I refused to bid. I expect that the condor studies required lead readings in the parts per billion range. After a career in chemical and environmental work I just don't trust anybodies ppb analysis. During my career the greatest whores I ever encountered were scientists seeking grants. I am not calling the information you gave false. I am just saying I have no idea if it is true or not. I often wonder what would happen to NASA's funding if they did not find evidence of global warming. I often regret being so sceptical and cynical but I can't help it.

I understand you skepticism but remember that cheating and lieing can happen on both sides of the argument.

Tim

[dtknowles]

........................They need to study the gut piles left to see of lead is really present. Send samples to a laboratory that does not know what they are from or for. Otherwise the anti-lead bias creeps in and the studies are junk.

I often wonder about all the talk about gut piles and offal but not all hunting is for meat and not a meat animals shot are collected and dressed. What about the ones that get away and die or all the varmint hunters who never collect their kills.

None of the discussion here seem to be comprehensive and many people on both sides of the argument don't care about the facts. Some have pointed out that the studies (both for and against lead) might be flawed or deliberately false. To me it is clear that the decision are being made almost completely based on politics and emotion and there is not much support for shooting and hunting in the general California population. It is too bad that shooter and hunters don't have a reputation that they are concerned about wildlife and the environment short of have target ranges and animals to hunt. I know a lot of us care about wildlife and the environment but not enough to over come the general perceptions.

Tim

[Blackwater]

DT, your post re my former one is understood, fully, but you leave out a critical issue that's inherent in human survival. That is simply that without a good and decent and viable ehtic and set of morals, NO civilization has lasted long. This is a matter of history. The lessons available to us, if we WANT them, come from many and varied places, but all depend on our recognition of them and our heeding them. Infanticide was promoted in Nazi Germany, and this grew, as it inevitably must according to some of the best philosophers the world has ever produced, to then include killing the old, the sick, and whoever else was "in the way" of the all-powerful and haughty state. If you wish to live in this type of world, you'll find yourself in good company, but a small minority of the population. The kind of thinking you defend is based on simple mathematics, but mankind has NEVER been a matter of simple mathematics. To think that way demeans man and his abilities and concerns. I thought they might need a little support from this end of the spectrum, but won't elaborate, since it's not likely that you'd acknowledge or appreciate it, so we'll let it end here. Morals, principles and ethics have ALWAYS mattered to mankind. ALWAYS. And despite our lack of concern for it, a nation's philosophy always winds up being the eventual determinant of its character and its success - or lack thereof.

[OuchHot!]

One of the issues with the peregrine funds "research" was the quality of the data. The other was inclusion of samples from dissections of birds that were shot. No kidding! I am not happy to see any animal go extinct least of all a majestic raptor. We have spent somewhere near a quarter of a million per bird over the last 25yrs. The equipment and methods for isotope ratio determination has been rather successfully questioned. Also keep in mind that many sources of lead in the environment come from remanufacturing of lead mined from ranges. We all felt betrayed when a founder of a non-lead bullet company wrote a supportive report to the lefties pushing this and then sold his company which was, at the time, the only source for many calibers. The expansion of the lead ban and efforts to extend it to other states is certainly a political agenda.

[youngmman]

When those laws were first considered a person in our industry provided a "white paper" telling fish and game that there were no financial or technical reasons that hunters could not go lead free. He presented the technology as mature, sensible, and ready to roll. His name was Barnes. Those laws have nothing to do with saving Condors or anything else. They are just another political agenda. The buffalo were assassinated by the hundreds of thousands in a short period using large wads of lead and the bodies left to scavengers. None of them went extinct. Lead is very common in the earth and is usually found in a form more bioavailable than the alloy we use in boolits. It is just bulls#$t.

The CA fish and game testified against the lead ban. It is the politicians and their ideological ******** based on what they think and not a damn thing of what they know. The insidious part of all this is that it affects us because their belief in a falsehood used to put forth their real agenda of eliminating hunting in CA.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

There is one killer of birds I have not read about on this thread and that is the stupid wind generators. The last number I heard about was 72 golden eagles killed in that year by the windmills. The state's position was that it was worth the sacrifice.There was no mention of condors. There is one fact we cannot change and it took place long before man appeared on this planet. 99% of all species that ever lived are extinct.

[dtknowles]

DT, your post re my former one is understood, fully, but you leave out a critical issue that's inherent in human survival. That is simply that without a good and decent and viable ehtic and set of morals, NO civilization has lasted long. This is a matter of history. The lessons available to us, if we WANT them, come from many and varied places, but all depend on our recognition of them and our heeding them. Infanticide was promoted in Nazi Germany, and this grew, as it inevitably must according to some of the best philosophers the world has ever produced, to then include killing the old, the sick, and whoever else was "in the way" of the all-powerful and haughty state. If you wish to live in this type of world, you'll find yourself in good company, but a small minority of the population. The kind of thinking you defend is based on simple mathematics, but mankind has NEVER been a matter of simple mathematics. To think that way demeans man and his abilities and concerns. I thought they might need a little support from this end of the spectrum, but won't elaborate, since it's not likely that you'd acknowledge or appreciate it, so we'll let it end here. Morals, principles and ethics have ALWAYS mattered to mankind. ALWAYS. And despite our lack of concern for it, a nation's philosophy always winds up being the eventual determinant of its character and its success - or lack thereof.

Did you mean to cut off debate, you said "won't elaborate, since it's not likely that you'd acknowledge or appreciate it, so we'll let it end here." That might be the correct thing to do since this post is not in the Pit, we would be drifting toward politics and religion. I don't remember seeing you posting much in the pit so in a way we are strangers unless you have read my posts in the pit. I have a open mind and the caviler comment I made about abortions is not a reflection of my position on abortion. While I do lament the continued increase in the world population I do not advocate in favor of abortion, euthanasia, genocide or limits on the number of children a person can have but only wish that people would choose to have fewer children. The only thing you wrote that I disagree with (and you attributed it unspecified others) is that government supported abortions will inevitably lead to government pressure for euthanasia. you said "as it inevitably must according to some of the best philosophers the world has ever produced, to then include killing the old, the sick, and whoever else was "in the way" of the all-powerful and haughty state." I am strongly opposed to allowing the Government to become so strong that it could impose such a regime, I support the continued weakening of our central government in favor of more personal liberty.

Tim

[OuchHot!]

There was a statement made that the wind generators killed more raptors in five years than all the lead bullets in history. That is obviously a fabricated steaming pile but I suspect has a kernel of truth. The actual body count from wind generators has been hard to get at as it is impossible to get at the bodies in question without access to the property. Current design wind generators are much less of a problem. The peregrine fund data used analytical standards as reference articles that could not initially be reproduced. They did not compare against readily available lead sources and in my view as a scientist, "cooked the books". We had one member of the fish and game commission that wasn't a stand up lefty. He got fired when he (horrors!!) went hunting in Colorado and posted a facebook picture of a lawful kill. The commission is no longer called "fish and game". I am a scientist for a living and one of my undergraduate degrees is metallurgy. I had worked hard to provide real science to the original commission and the Peregrine fund report caught me flat footed. I then looked into the fine print. We were already finished from any political perspective. We now have solar generators being installed that have already ignited birds in flight! You won't get that out of a Peregrine fund report. Please guys, many of us CA residents have really worked hard to stop this stuff. This country has elected and reelected Obama. It isn't just a CA problem.....if it were, I would recommend an airstrike.

[Blackwater]

No problem, DT. Just misunderstood the post, which is normal here in this etherous realm. No facial cues or tonal inflections to key in on to transmit what we were actually thinking. That's why I try to write as lucidly as I can, and STILL I get misunderstood, as do we all I suppose. We'll take up that other subject about whether it's inevitable that abortions "inevitably" leading to further atrocities somewhere else and another time, and you're right - this isn't the place, but after what I perceived, initially at least, as a comment against what was once held as common convictions, I felt it needed to be countered. We of faith have historically folded our hands and declined to "fight," even verbally, when actually challenged, and I've had enough of that type of thing, and tend to rise to the occasion, to the best of my ability, in defense of our traditional values. We get plenty of the other stuff in the various media, and it's a darn shame more people of faith don't have the knowledge or ability to defend what has always been considered "right" in this nation. Sorry if I jumped the gun, and didn't mean to offend, but only to challenge if I'd understood it right. No big deal. Happens too often in this electonic world, and thanks for setting me right.

[RogerDat]

I'm sure many on the left are anti-gun, or anti-hunting. Many but not all are pro-conservation. You are unlikely to make someone switch sides BUT you can meet the larger pro-conservation non-hunting people in the middle and that does in effect peel off or isolate the extreme ant-gun crowd. Hunters want a healthy wet lands, non-hunting conservationists want a healthy wet lands. If hunters support of not using lead shot around wet lands furthers that common goal AND helps form some personal connections that is all upside. Hunters and gun owners in general are essentially a minority, coalitions are how you have a majority voice. Well that and money for campaign contributions and lobbyist. They say one of the best ways to have a friend is to be one, being on politely respectful if not friendly terms with the non-hunting conservationists is upside, with a bonus of healthier wilderness areas.


The ad hominem attacks on the researchers for having a point of view that makes them biased are just silly. So what are you saying? That any information released by the NRA or Pheasants Forever is a lie to support their bias? The data is where the truth is, not in the bias. One reason research papers such as the one I linked to include all that boring data is that in research and science in general the data has to be available so your conclusions can be examined in light of the data you use to support the conclusion. Cute sayings about making numbers do what you want really only apply to fantasy worlds like the budget that Congress uses. Hard physical science you start playing games with the numbers and a bunch of smart people figure it out pretty darn quick.

Someone pointed out that the issue of lead in game being donated was raised, reasonable question considering lead bullet and all, testing showed the answer. Answer is accepted so venison is still being donated. That information did not have to be smuggled out past the authorities did it? Did anyone have to be tortured into admitting that the tests showed game meat was not lead contaminated by being shot with a lead bullet? What is the point? That some people raise questions from a perspective we don't agree with? Hello, ever been married?

Better to fight when the facts are on your side, hunting to reduce deer herd to avoid starvation and maintain balance. Or crime statistics vs. gun ownership, or impact of gun laws and regulations on crime and homicide. Bearing in mind that someone that lives out in rural America has a totally different perspective than someone living in a big city or urban environment. I consider poaching or the proliferation of coyotes an issue, they consider stolen handguns being available to teen agers for $25 that are used to rob, kill, and run criminal enterprises an issue. Trick for gun owners is to find solutions to the other guys problems that don't unduly infringe on gun owners. Not many threads on that legal issue. But if we don't solve it the majority may well do it for us in ways we don't like.

Hunt with lead in condor areas you are seven different kinds of stupid, you may lead to total hunting ban in those areas, or ban on all lead hunting ammo, or giving hunters a reputation for being criminals who won't abide by the rules. In short nothing good comes from it. Give a bit on the condors, actually they are pretty cool, I know that the younger kids around here always notice the turkey buzzards, or get excited when they find one of their feathers. Can't imagine what they would think seeing a bird that big in the wild, be nice if someday they or their kids could find out. Support this with some grace and expect a fair hearing when you have something you want support on.

[OuchHot!]

RogerDat, your comments are actually ad hominem themselves. If you use an analytical standard that artificially skews isotope ratios as a comparison, it will help prove whatever you want proven. The UC sc article was atrocious. I am attacking data derived from birds that were shot by people who should have been, as that is not an indication of ingested lead. I am attacking data that is reduced by using flawed analytical techniques as being fraudulent. A few years back, the Nature Conservancy (I am a member and have been almost as long as a NRA member) published one of their quarterly mags that featured an article claiming that sport hunting was imperative for the preservation of wildlife and habitat. It was well done, well researched, and totally castigated. I am speaking from a point of view of a scientist that doesn't like what I see. I had no problems with banning lead in waterfowl hunting. I do not like to see Science ever more politically driven.

[RogerDat]

RogerDat, your comments are actually ad hominem themselves. ...... I had no problems with banning lead in waterfowl hunting. I do not like to see Science ever more politically driven.

Which argument did I try to dismiss using an ad hominem argument? Do you have evidence that specifically shows that the report "skews isotope ratios as a comparison" to reach its conclusion that the lead in Condor blood and organs matches bullet lead? That would be interesting evidence to review. Or evidence that finding a lead bullet in the gullet is not a valid indication but misrepresented? The sample sizes are small but if you have 4 out of 50 in an area with lead poisoning, lead poisoning clearly is an issue. The ones that are shot are a whole other issue. And I do not believe they were counted in the death from lead poisoning counts. Their blood and organ lead levels were collected, but since we know from venison at food bank study that being shot and killed with a lead bullet does not contaminate the tissue with lead why would it exclude blood and organ lead levels from birds that were shot. They did not build up lead levels in the organs by getting shot any more than a dear shot has a liver that will give you lead poisoning.

I think science has to be considered as somewhat political since at least when the church arrested Galileo, there were many scientific papers published to support the inferiority or superiority of the races, let us not forget eugenics which had its own learned proponents.

Don't recall the article about sport hunting you mention or any being castigated. While some say "you can't shoot bambi!" many if not most news stories point out the population of game animals lacks enough predators to prevent either gross overpopulation or a great deal of overlap between human and animal habitat. You let the deer herd grow and soon you will not only see deer, you won't have a plant left in your landscaping and your car will be in the body shop as the overpopulation of deer get very mobile in their search for food. Cute little dog is another way of saying coyote treat if you have more than the wild areas can support so they forage around your house. I don't think many give the stupid voices on wildlife management much attention, not to say they can't get quoted on TV they are after all entertaining.

[dtknowles]

No problem, DT. Just misunderstood the post, which is normal here in this etherous realm. No facial cues or tonal inflections to key in on to transmit what we were actually thinking. That's why I try to write as lucidly as I can, and STILL I get misunderstood, as do we all I suppose. We'll take up that other subject about whether it's inevitable that abortions "inevitably" leading to further atrocities somewhere else and another time, and you're right - this isn't the place, but after what I perceived, initially at least, as a comment against what was once held as common convictions, I felt it needed to be countered. We of faith have historically folded our hands and declined to "fight," even verbally, when actually challenged, and I've had enough of that type of thing, and tend to rise to the occasion, to the best of my ability, in defense of our traditional values. We get plenty of the other stuff in the various media, and it's a darn shame more people of faith don't have the knowledge or ability to defend what has always been considered "right" in this nation. Sorry if I jumped the gun, and didn't mean to offend, but only to challenge if I'd understood it right. No big deal. Happens too often in this electonic world, and thanks for setting me right.

You were right to do what you did. I was flip about abortions and knew it as soon as I hit the post button, I should have edited it. We did create chance to post some interesting dialog :-)

Tim

Our faiths are probably different but our values of ethics and integrity and personal responsibility are probably the same.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

Do they make lead free .22lr? If not is hunting small game with this cartridge effectively banned in California?

[MaryB]

Actually the fight to donate game meat went on for quite awhile
2008: http://www.startribune.com/study-lead-in-donated-venison-hints-at-issues-in-all-deer-meat/35478109/
2013: http://www.mprnews.org/story/2013/11/16/news/deer-hunt-food-shelves


I'm sure many on the left are anti-gun, or anti-hunting. Many but not all are pro-conservation. You are unlikely to make someone switch sides BUT you can meet the larger pro-conservation non-hunting people in the middle and that does in effect peel off or isolate the extreme ant-gun crowd. Hunters want a healthy wet lands, non-hunting conservationists want a healthy wet lands. If hunters support of not using lead shot around wet lands furthers that common goal AND helps form some personal connections that is all upside. Hunters and gun owners in general are essentially a minority, coalitions are how you have a majority voice. Well that and money for campaign contributions and lobbyist. They say one of the best ways to have a friend is to be one, being on politely respectful if not friendly terms with the non-hunting conservationists is upside, with a bonus of healthier wilderness areas.


The ad hominem attacks on the researchers for having a point of view that makes them biased are just silly. So what are you saying? That any information released by the NRA or Pheasants Forever is a lie to support their bias? The data is where the truth is, not in the bias. One reason research papers such as the one I linked to include all that boring data is that in research and science in general the data has to be available so your conclusions can be examined in light of the data you use to support the conclusion. Cute sayings about making numbers do what you want really only apply to fantasy worlds like the budget that Congress uses. Hard physical science you start playing games with the numbers and a bunch of smart people figure it out pretty darn quick.

Someone pointed out that the issue of lead in game being donated was raised, reasonable question considering lead bullet and all, testing showed the answer. Answer is accepted so venison is still being donated. That information did not have to be smuggled out past the authorities did it? Did anyone have to be tortured into admitting that the tests showed game meat was not lead contaminated by being shot with a lead bullet? What is the point? That some people raise questions from a perspective we don't agree with? Hello, ever been married?

Better to fight when the facts are on your side, hunting to reduce deer herd to avoid starvation and maintain balance. Or crime statistics vs. gun ownership, or impact of gun laws and regulations on crime and homicide. Bearing in mind that someone that lives out in rural America has a totally different perspective than someone living in a big city or urban environment. I consider poaching or the proliferation of coyotes an issue, they consider stolen handguns being available to teen agers for $25 that are used to rob, kill, and run criminal enterprises an issue. Trick for gun owners is to find solutions to the other guys problems that don't unduly infringe on gun owners. Not many threads on that legal issue. But if we don't solve it the majority may well do it for us in ways we don't like.

Hunt with lead in condor areas you are seven different kinds of stupid, you may lead to total hunting ban in those areas, or ban on all lead hunting ammo, or giving hunters a reputation for being criminals who won't abide by the rules. In short nothing good comes from it. Give a bit on the condors, actually they are pretty cool, I know that the younger kids around here always notice the turkey buzzards, or get excited when they find one of their feathers. Can't imagine what they would think seeing a bird that big in the wild, be nice if someday they or their kids could find out. Support this with some grace and expect a fair hearing when you have something you want support on.

[rintinglen]

rintinglen, where in Virginia? We'll welcome you. Lots of ranges, clubs and shooting opportunities depending on your shooting preferences. Admittedly permission to hunt can be dicey, but doable.
Orange, VA. The better half and I are buying a home there. My youngest and her kids are about 25 minutes away in Culpeper.

[rsrocket1]

Do they make lead free .22lr? If not is hunting small game with this cartridge effectively banned in California?

It has nothing to do with hunting small game in CA, it's all about making hunting so expensive, many hunters will quit. Then they will say "why own a gun? you aren't hunting with it, it's only for killing people". Remember, what starts in CA can spread throughout the country so long as people are complacent thinking "it can't happen here". Just ask Australia.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Here in New Zealand, lead shot is banned near water ways. Not a general ban, only near water. The reason is that water fowl pick up lead shot and ingest it and it kills them. We respect the conversation laws (mostly or at least, most of us do).

I suspect that the California liberals do have an agenda which is basically anti-gun, anti-hunting among other things. You know, the Bambi syndrome. I do not know this as a fact, it's just a suspicion. However, I can see how lead containing bullets and boolits can leave dangerous lead residue in offal that condors would likely ingest. In my books, conservation takes priority over my desire to shoot hunt with lead boolits. I would hope that others share my view. I do however, draw the line at banning lead from shooting ranges where no condor is going to mine the berms for lead to chew on. I doubt any such ban exists - does it?

I like to think of hunters as nature loving people, hell bent on preserving the source of their passion. That would include wildlife in general and endangered wildlife in particular. Sadly though, there are people who really do not seem to care. I know of a few. These guys had a hunting resource that could have been a long term thing but they shot it out in a few months, leaving nothing for even the short term future. They had no regard for my ongoing shooting either. I was part of the original deal.

"Conversation laws" may be an interesting Freudian slip, but I think you have the right idea on the subject. Yes indeed, there are people who will try to exploit any kind of environmental issue, out of pure opposition to shooting, hunting, being different from them or enjoying ourselves. But the remedy is to just go with the scientific evidence, avoid taking them on on an issue where they would be clear winners, and let them look for other issues on which they are less certain of winning.

There is always the chance of a rogue scientist standing up and producing nonsense, either because he is paid or because he is so constructed by nature. But the lead poisoning issue is prominent enough to be standing up to peer review. There is nothing scientists like better than the chance to turn on one who is faking a case.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

The condor isn't, strictly speaking, a raptor. Eagles and falcons are predominantly interested in living prey which is sometimes terrestrial, and at most times will hug the ground if it knows what is good for it. The golden eagle will eat carrion sometimes, but while I believe Theodore Roosevelt called the bald eagle "that vulture" in arguing that his friend the grizzly should have been America's national symbol, both eagles certainly hunt living prey quite a bit of the time. The peregrine is extremely difficult to interest in anything that isn't flying.
This means the condor is almost uniquely vulnerable to ingesting lead on a regular basis. I don't know how coyotes etc. are making out, but there are a lot more of them around.

Yes indeed, wind turbines are proving an avian tragedy, although one that will affect the true raptors much more than a bird that descends from a great height. Maybe something can be devised to reduce it, although it is likely to increase the already controversial impact of the things on the human environment. Their supporters would argue that it was a discovery made after vast investment which would benefit the national economy and the environmental health of the planet. It doesn't really compare with having to go out and buy a box of a different kind of bullet.

As has been said quite a while back, this is far from an insuperable problem. The preference for making one's own bullets applies to a minority of a minority, far smaller than those who reap the benefits from wind turbines. In any case, bullets can be made from lead-free solder or from pewter, which should be acceptable. The trajectory will suffer a little, but that is something for which a little testing on the range will compensate.

[rintinglen]

To the extent that "unleaded" was required in the areas where these 250,000 dollar birds live, I can understand the requirement. To extend it to areas where they do not live is overkill.
But reading the legislation, the purported purpose had nothing to specifically do with Condors, Vultures nor any other scavenger. It was to protect the "environment" from Lead contamination. And it was not limited to cast boolits, but all bullets.

[white eagle]

You will NEVER find a cast boolit from my guns in any animal. I don't care how big it is, there will be two holes. Condors die from eating liberals. End of story, they are poison.


wow looks as though ol Jim hit the nail on the head,again...
I do like the Barnes bullets and have used them to harvest game animals
but they are pricey however premium is always more.
casting is definitely a cost saver but I cast more for the control that I have
in manufacture and use
California is a unique place for sure I am just glad its way west of me

[RogerDat]

When you said "protect the environment........ not limited to cast boolits, but all bullets". Don't you mean all lead bullets for hunting? And is it in all areas or in certain designated areas? Not that I really think an intruder in the house would notice the difference between 12 gauge 00 in lead vs. steel.

While it is true that California has been an early adopter of some things, it is also true that being such a large market encourages innovation on the part of businesses. The California ban on hunting with lead bullets will probably encourage bullet manufactures to produce new ammo for that market.

It is also true that much of the country ignores what California does and goes their own way.

[OuchHot!]

I obviously cannot make my science understood here and see nothing to gain by trying. This sort of thing is what I do for a living and I have spent more than 40yrs honing these skills. The science did not stand up to even cursory examination. I am active in Oregon politics as it is important for me to try keep the preservationists (they are NOT conservationist) at least somewhat civil. Funny thing is there will be condors introduced into Oregon in less than two years (to my knowledge in areas we do not think that they ever occupied). Within five years of that there will be a lead ban. The Oregon population is blissfully unaware how advanced this program is.

[Bigslug]

W
While it is true that California has been an early adopter of some things, it is also true that being such a large market encourages innovation on the part of businesses. The California ban on hunting with lead bullets will probably encourage bullet manufactures to produce new ammo for that market.

It is also true that much of the country ignores what California does and goes their own way.

Ruger, S&W and others are in the process of telling California to "pound sand" with their handgun "safety" feature requirements and taking the state to court. Ruger was especially surprising, after going to great lengths for several years to produce lawyerized handguns. The industry, and the rest of the nation should follow that lead and do what they can to not only contain the disease to the left coast, but squeeze their legislature into behaving like a member of the United States of America should - rather than rolling as a quasi-socialist republic.

As to hunters becoming viewed as "anti conservation", it's easy to be seen that way when the "conservation" methods presented involve hiding an anti-gun and anti-hunting agenda behind highly questionable science, while drumming up sympathy for a creature that is a Pleistocene hold-over that would probably be having a hard time surviving in this current world of high tension lines, wind farms, and tidy agricultural carrion disposal even if toxic heavy metals did not exist. Condors flat out need charity to survive, and as such, aren't going to get any more of my sympathy than most other useless welfare recipients. I think seeing one would be cool, and don't wish them any personal ill will, but as long as they are a "poster bird" component in the machinery that wants to outlaw everything associated with my lifestyle (not the least of all ME), I have trouble seeing their ongoing existence as a good thing.

[45-70 Chevroner]

If anyone would like to get an eye opener on wind generators, you should watch the documentary " Wind Fall"

[olafhardt]

Speaking of lead in the environment the local bears have developed a taste for the lead acid batteries a lot of hunters use with deer stands. It seems that lead sulphate is sweet and has been used for sugar substitute. The bears are treating batteries as honey pots. This might put lots of lead in the bears flesh which is not passed out quickly. When the bear dies it becomes a large chunk of contaminated carrion. Maybe we should be careful about using those cameras and eating bear meat. In my previous life I cleaned up several large waste ponds contaminated with heavy metals. These ponds had lots of ducks that landed in your favorite marsh a few days later along with a few that fattened up on sewage equilization ponds. What do wild hogs eat? If you catch catfish with nasty stinking rotten stuff, what were they eating last week? This wonderful lake that we all go to that flooded worked out mercury mines it is a great swimming hole for the kids. I am 70 years old. I grew up on the property of an oil refinery where my father worked. I was disabled by chemical exposure in Vietnam. I am a graduate chemical engineer. I spent my career up to my neck in acids, alkalies, poisons, explosivies, toxic gasses etc. It has been interesting and a pretty good life. If you are worried that terrible things can happen, let me assure you they can. That doesn't mean they will. But if you just have to worry about all that stuff check out the preppers. Perhaps we should have a huge gathering to put up props to keep the sky from falling. One more thing if the worst happens you just might be able to handle it, I hope you do.

[BrentD]

That is not true. Not trying to be disagreeable, but that is just plain false.
And that's not the only untruth on this thread either.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Speaking of lead in the environment the local bears have developed a taste for the lead acid batteries a lot of hunters use with deer stands. It seems that lead sulphate is sweet and has been used for sugar substitute. The bears are treating batteries as honey pots. This might put lots of lead in the bears flesh which is not passed out quickly. When the bear dies it becomes a large chunk of contaminated carrion. Maybe we should be careful about using those cameras and eating bear meat. In my previous life I cleaned up several large waste ponds contaminated with heavy metals. These ponds had lots of ducks that landed in your favorite marsh a few days later along with a few that fattened up on sewage equilization ponds. What do wild hogs eat? If you catch catfish with nasty stinking rotten stuff, what were they eating last week? This wonderful lake that we all go to that flooded worked out mercury mines it is a great swimming hole for the kids. I am 70 years old. I grew up on the property of an oil refinery where my father worked. I was disabled by chemical exposure in Vietnam. I am a graduate chemical engineer. I spent my career up to my neck in acids, alkalies, poisons, explosivies, toxic gasses etc. It has been interesting and a pretty good life. If you are worried that terrible things can happen, let me assure you they can. That doesn't mean they will. But if you just have to worry about all that stuff check out the preppers. Perhaps we should have a huge gathering to put up props to keep the sky from falling. One more thing if the worst happens you just might be able to handle it, I hope you do.

You may well be right about all those things, except that we don't all use that swimming hole, and it shouldn't take a lot of common sense (or some official with a promising career in the signwriting department) to stop us doing so. But one neglected environmental hazard isn't a reason to neglect others.

I used to have a Labrador which would make horrible grimaces while eating gooseberries off the bush, because they were sour, but that is what Labradors do. I think, though, bears would only eat the lead sulphate from discharged batteries, or those from which the acid has leaked. That does argue an above-average level of human irresponsibility, and nothing at all argues condor irresponsibility. By the way, there were no birds in the Pleistocene.

I've just been rereading the memoirs which Harry Patch, the last British soldier to have served in the trenches of Flanders, dictated at the age of 108. He describes how in working as a plumber and sanitary engineer between the wars, he used to see men with their fingers turning blue from lead exposure, probably including himself, and he also worked a lot with asbestos paste. But they seemed to recover pretty well when they stopped, and he himself showed a conspicuous absence of mental impairment. I grew up among old men who had been where he had been, and although they heartily concurred that starting war is murder, would say things like "Aye, but we had guid times at Passchendaele", or "Ye wouldnae want tae be the man that missed it." None of that alters the fact that plenty of people didn't get away with either thing. Trying to avoid all we can seems to be the smart thing to do.

[BrentD]

No birds in the Pleistocene? When did that happen?

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Quite a while ago. What's a bird? Some say birds are dinosaurs. I should perhaps have said no birds at all resembling the condor. That seems pretty safe.

[BrentD]

No, that is not safe. Not at all. Study up.

[NavyVet1959]

By the way, there were no birds in the Pleistocene.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Pleistocene_birds

According to that, there were plenty of them.

[BrentD]

Just about everything is this thread is wrong...

[dondiego]

Just about everything is this thread is wrong...

Care to elaborate?

[BrentD]

Not really. But for one, condors do ingest lead ammunition and die. Of that, there is, unfortunately, little doubt.

[Blackwater]

Yet the question still remains: Should we drop all sorts of priorities just to placate those who wish to preserve a species that seems destined at some point in the not too distant future to die off anyway? The comments about power lines, etc. apply here. Wisdom always has and always will affect OUR survival, and THAT is the real question here that awaits our individual and collective judgment, as a nation and as a species ourselves. How we answer that question will affect our own survival eventually. And our answer SHOULD (clearly!) be based on facts AND on our value system, and how we weigh and use them.

It is always regretable when entire species go extinct, but at what point that regret gets to be a grandiose illusion depends on our will to answer the question with honesty and intellectuality, and NOT on our warm fuzzy feelings. This is not a common commodity today on either side of this and like issues. We're a provocative, touchy-feely lot, and that inhibits wisdom GREATLY. With computers, we understand pretty well the principle of "garbage in, garbage out," but when it comes to moral, ethical and practical matters, we seem to forget that, and just go with what we FEEL. This isn't the way to solve ANY problem or answer any question. It's just the way it is.

Do I wish to see the condors pass into extinction? Absolutely not! But do I think we should commit vast amounts of money we DON'T have and prohibit perfectly rational use of our other national and other resources? No, I don't. Balance is the key, and when we lose our balance in our thinking, we can't very well be surprised when we get all sorts of bad results from our lack of wisdom, like hunting being outlawed, etc., etc. It IS on the liberals' agenda. There can be no question at this point of that. Whether we follow their logic to OUR extinction is the one we really need to be thinking about. At that point, our transition from a once free nation to a totalitarian one will be virtually complete. No need for guns to hunt with? Then as was stated above, no need for them at all, since they're just intended for killing other people, which is a "crime" (in their minds) so we'll need to confiscate all firearms to reduce our "criminal population." If anyone can't see this, it's GOT to be because they simply don't WANT to. But then, that's not uncommon today either, so .... as Sonny and Cher said, "The Beat Goes On."

[TXGunNut]

I, for one, am quite weary of political correctness and questionable science. Hard to argue with the contention that condors are due to become instinct, seems to be one of the most reasonable ideas presented thus far. I'll never miss the condor and the thought of introducing them into another area or spending $250,000 to maintain one sounds silly to me.
Has anyone considered how many have survived by eating gut piles and unrecovered game? As pointed out earlier a proper bullet (or boolit) will not be in the animal if it does it's job correctly.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Yet the question still remains: Should we drop all sorts of priorities just to placate those who wish to preserve a species that seems destined at some point in the not too distant future to die off anyway? The comments about power lines, etc. apply here. Wisdom always has and always will affect OUR survival, and THAT is the real question here that awaits our individual and collective judgment, as a nation and as a species ourselves. How we answer that question will affect our own survival eventually. And our answer SHOULD (clearly!) be based on facts AND on our value system, and how we weigh and use them.

It is always regretable when entire species go extinct, but at what point that regret gets to be a grandiose illusion depends on our will to answer the question with honesty and intellectuality, and NOT on our warm fuzzy feelings. This is not a common commodity today on either side of this and like issues. We're a provocative, touchy-feely lot, and that inhibits wisdom GREATLY. With computers, we understand pretty well the principle of "garbage in, garbage out," but when it comes to moral, ethical and practical matters, we seem to forget that, and just go with what we FEEL. This isn't the way to solve ANY problem or answer any question. It's just the way it is.

Do I wish to see the condors pass into extinction? Absolutely not! But do I think we should commit vast amounts of money we DON'T have and prohibit perfectly rational use of our other national and other resources? No, I don't. Balance is the key, and when we lose our balance in our thinking, we can't very well be surprised when we get all sorts of bad results from our lack of wisdom, like hunting being outlawed, etc., etc. It IS on the liberals' agenda. There can be no question at this point of that. Whether we follow their logic to OUR extinction is the one we really need to be thinking about. At that point, our transition from a once free nation to a totalitarian one will be virtually complete. No need for guns to hunt with? Then as was stated above, no need for them at all, since they're just intended for killing other people, which is a "crime" (in their minds) so we'll need to confiscate all firearms to reduce our "criminal population." If anyone can't see this, it's GOT to be because they simply don't WANT to. But then, that's not uncommon today either, so .... as Sonny and Cher said, "The Beat Goes On."

How many sorts of priorities would not using lead-containing bullets require people to drop? Just one, it seems like. Animals not being given either eternal life or access to decent burial, it sounds like there is no evidence at all for anything but human intervention endangering the condor. Some conservation measures, like not having homes, airports, flight lines or the wind turbines they soar above, may involve sacrifices it is difficult to expect of people.

As has already been pointed out, the snowflake effect of bullets on x-rays has been well documented. Here is a web page which shows just how the flight patterns of Old World vultures, similar in habits to the condor, differ from those of most birds. I have seen those fifty miles from anywhere they could possibly be roosting. If you lie down in the open you will sometimes see a speck appear just low enough to satisfy its concern for your health.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/wildlife/7952480/Pilots-put-on-alert-after-vulture-escapes-handler.html

Unfortunately the condor, like President Nixon, has the sort of face which doesn't evoke sympathy in times of trouble. I think opinion would be quite different if we were talking swans. But all told, the sum of public opinion is that the fate of the condor justifies the sacrifice of lead bullets.

139663

[NavyVet1959]

They evolved in the age of "megafauna". They are a meat eater (scavenger) and require a lot of (dead) meat to survive. With the megafauna removed, their days were numbered. Dead cattle serve as a substitute these days and I suspect any of the dead large sea mammal in the coastal areas that might wash ashore. Sometimes, you just reach an evolutionary dead end and you need to recognize it.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

They evolved in the age of "megafauna". They are a meat eater (scavenger) and require a lot of (dead) meat to survive. With the megafauna removed, their days were numbered. Dead cattle serve as a substitute these days and I suspect any of the dead large sea mammal in the coastal areas that might wash ashore. Sometimes, you just reach an evolutionary dead end and you need to recognize it.

That is ingenious, but a given environment supports a given amount of biomass, mega or bite-sized, and deserts support vultures. They know how to exploit undrafts, and unlike the albatross, which is not a very big eater, they fly only part of the 24 hours.

[NavyVet1959]

That is ingenious, but a given environment supports a given amount of biomass, mega or bite-sized, and deserts support vultures. They know how to exploit undrafts, and unlike the albatross, which is not a very big eater, they fly only part of the 24 hours.

Deserts don't support much in the way of large animals. With a large scavenger, it needs large amounts of carrion to survive. If that carrion is spread across a very large area (as would occur when it has to resort to eating smaller dead animals), it is expending a lot more energy in finding the next meal. As such, the energy requirements of the scavenger go up and it needs to find even more carrion to survive. As such, even if the amount of available dead biomass was the same, the amount of energy that the condor has to expend has increased and thus the available dead biomass can support fewer condors.

Adapt or die... It's how things work in nature. If you specialize too much, you stand a chance of extinction when things change.

[BrentD]

I'll never miss the condor...

Of course, it ain't all about you.



Has anyone considered how many have survived by eating gut piles and unrecovered game? As pointed out earlier a proper bullet (or boolit) will not be in the animal if it does it's job correctly.

In the case of unrecovered game, it's pretty much a certainty that the bullet did not do its job correctly ;)

[BrentD]

They evolved in the age of "megafauna". They are a meat eater (scavenger) and require a lot of (dead) meat to survive. With the megafauna removed, their days were numbered. Dead cattle serve as a substitute these days and I suspect any of the dead large sea mammal in the coastal areas that might wash ashore. Sometimes, you just reach an evolutionary dead end and you need to recognize it.

If you have reached an evolutionary dead end, I'm sorry for ya. :)

But whether the condor has or has not, is an open question (not easily answered except by armchair internet experts :) :) :) :)

[bhn22]

Okay, here's my take on the left, and their positions on hunting and fishing. The left is all about people, they want everybody to buy into their ideology and accept their "contributions" to public welfare, but to do achieve these goals, many will need to sacrifice their independence to the government. There are fewer of the strong, than there are of the weak nowdays. "Divide and conquer" has been extremely effective the last few decades, and this country is no longer able to pull together for the common good, because the common good no longer exists. Everybody is splintered, and only the loudest voices are heard, the rest are shouted down and attacked publicly for being against the common good. If we can realign many of the "special interest" groups, we may stand a chance. Otherwise....

[BrentD]

bhn22, you speak of "the left" as if they are of one mind and one opinion. They are not.

We stand a chance be simply being inclusive and rational. A lefty that likes to hunt and shoot is the type of lefty that will ensure that these traditions continue.

That statement of yours, "pull together for the common good" is as true as it ever was. And it also means that "my way or the highway" is not the means to an end. Something that many hunters and gunners seem to have forgotten. It is a big country with a LOT of people. An inconceivably HUGE number of people. Expecting that one small group, like hunters, should get their way simply because they say so is not going to be successful.

[NavyVet1959]

Of course, it ain't all about you.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxUuDPNbkJk

:)

[bhn22]

The common good is dead, control is the new king. Nobody, and I do mean nobody but me has my best interests at heart.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JizGkM6gbvQ

[Blackwater]

Well, as usual, nobody's listening, and therefore, nobody's thinking or learning anything. I think bhn has it nailed. We truly ARE fragmented, and a fragmented group or people WILL, by their simple high-handedness and stuborness, open themselves to being dominated by those who DO unite. The muslims must think Allah is having a field day!

[BrentD]

"Common good " is NOT about you. Never was. This is America after all. Sees odd to me that so many equate their own personal issues as being the standard by which an entire society should abide.

[bhn22]

Like I said before, common good is dead. Now we aspire to subjugate the industrious to those whose only concept of "freedom" and "rights", doesn't extend beyond a government handout.

We have been betrayed and destroyed by our own charitable souls. Now, can we get back to talking about the condors?

[BrentD]

You can say anything you want, but "common good" hasn't gone away.

Anyone can say anything, but that doesn't make it a fact.

[Blackwater]

Like I said, nobody's listening and therefore, nobody's learning. There's no necessity in any of us getting "our way" in the matter, unless it's for posterity, yet we keep on hammering the same old nails without ever looking up to see if there's a better or more appropriate or wiser or more all-encompasing way. No listening, no learning. That's not a position on the issue, it's just a principle of human action and interaction. Nothing more. And it seemed to apply here. Principles DO count for something, ya' know, and always does when tempers take over and our more rational selves back off or disappear. If we ALL observed that more closely, we'd come a lot closer to at least UNDERSTANDING the other's side, and thereby at least agree to disagree more gracefully and we'd take away from the fray a bit more wisdom. Again, not an argument for or against either side, but a plea for more decorum. We ALL get a bit beyond seemliness at times.

[Texantothecore]

One of the questions I have had for a good number of years is:

Where are all the lead poisoned buzzards. They seem to have been forgotten, which is a shame as they feed on similar carrion.

But there doesn't seem to be much of a problem. Why?

[dtknowles]

One of the questions I have had for a good number of years is:

Where are all the lead poisoned buzzards. They seem to have been forgotten, which is a shame as they feed on similar carrion.

But there doesn't seem to be much of a problem. Why?

I would not know about California but around here a passel of dead turkey vultures or buzzards would hardly draw notice. It seems they mostly feed on road kill here and they mostly seem to get road killed themselves. Been seeing a lot of road killed gators and coons, the buzzards are pretty busy.

Tim

[Three44s]

How does a lead boolit that passed thru and thru going to poison a celebrated Cali buzzard?

How does a Cali buzzard feed on dead that ain't?

What I am alluding to is this:

Maybe the celebrated Cali buzzard is short on kills?

If it is so hungry after feeding on kills that ain't there anymore ....... that it has to scour the country side to find a boolit in the open ............

............. it just needs more honest to goodness kills ......... it needs more hunters to make more gut piles so it does not have to scour the earth for a blood stained boolit that flew right on through it's target and lodged itself in mother earth?

Now the lead bird shot ........... that does not pass right through at the rate that boolits do ........

.............. There is an arguement that's got some validity.

Three 44s

[NavyVet1959]

I think the real problem is those little electric golf carts that the Cali folks drive these days are just not big enough to give the Condors the amount of road kill that they need to survive. We have plenty of road kill here in Texas and our buzzards have no problem whatsoever getting enough food to eat. :) The Cali folks need to trade in their Prius and such cars for Chevy Suburbans, Ford Excursions, and such and get out there and make some more road kill!

:)

[303Guy]

Lead boolits are not the problem, it's them durned jaxketeds that to the fowl deeds. Ever notice what happens when a soft nose bullet hits an animal? It expands and sheds lead fragments in the process. So much so that people actually get high lead from eating shot venison. The trick is not to eat up to the bullet hole. A study was done in a country where there are no condors and no Californians. The outcome of the findings were along the lines of advising hunters to cut away any meat that could potentially be contaminated IIRC. My point is, lead bullets can contaminate shot animals.


Using radiography, researchers detected lead in tissue samples,” as much as 18 inches away from the exit wound, and noted that most of the particles were too small to see or feel. However, “the probability of having a tissue sample test positive for lead at 10 inches was quite low (~7%).” The study also found that rinsing the wound channel reduced lead fragments locally but seemed to increase lead contamination in other areas of the carcass. Surprisingly, trimming 2 inches of material around the wound channel eliminated only 30 percent of lead contamination.

Cast boolits were not tested in this study as far as I can make out.

[BrentD]

One of the questions I have had for a good number of years is:

Where are all the lead poisoned buzzards. They seem to have been forgotten, which is a shame as they feed on similar carrion.

But there doesn't seem to be much of a problem. Why?

Journal of Wildlife Diseases 39(1):96-104. 2003

EXPERIMENTAL LEAD POISONING IN TURKEY VULTURES (CATHARTES AURA)http://www.bioone.org/templates/jsp/_style2/_AP/_bioone/images/access_free.gif

James W. Carpenter1, (http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.7589/0090-3558-39.1.96#aff1)2 (http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.7589/0090-3558-39.1.96#aff2), Oliver H. Pattee1, (http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.7589/0090-3558-39.1.96#aff1)7 (http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.7589/0090-3558-39.1.96#cor1), Steven H. Fritts1, (http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.7589/0090-3558-39.1.96#aff1)3 (http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.7589/0090-3558-39.1.96#aff3), Barnett A. Rattner1 (http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.7589/0090-3558-39.1.96#aff1), Stanley N. Wiemeyer1, (http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.7589/0090-3558-39.1.96#aff1)4 (http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.7589/0090-3558-39.1.96#aff4), J. Andrew Royle1, (http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.7589/0090-3558-39.1.96#aff1)5 (http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.7589/0090-3558-39.1.96#aff5), and Milton R. Smith6 (http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.7589/0090-3558-39.1.96#aff6)
1 USGS Patuxent Wildlife Research Center, 11510 American Holly Drive, Laurel, Maryland 20708-4019, USA
2 Department of Clinical Sciences, College of Veterinary Medicine, Kansas State University, Manhattan, Kansas 66506, USA
3 US Fish and Wildlife Service, Migratory Birds and State Programs, P.O. Box 25486, Denver, Colorado 80225, USA
4 US Fish and Wildlife Service, Nevada Fish and Wildlife Office, 1340 Financial Boulevard, Suite 234, Reno, Nevada 89502, USA
5 US Fish and Wildlife Service, Migratory Bird Management, 11510 American Holly Drive, Laurel, Maryland 20708-4019, USA
6 USGS National Wildlife Health Research Center, 6006 Schroeder Road, Madison, Wisconsin 53711, USA



Lead-induced mortality appears to have been a major factor in the decline of the California condor (Gymnogyps californianus). We orally dosed turkey vultures (Cathartes aura) with BB-sized lead shot from January 1988 through July 1988 to determine physiologic response (delta-aminolevulinic acid dehydratase inhibition, erythrocyte protoporphyrin levels, anemia), diagnostic tissue lead concentrations (blood, liver, and kidney), and comparative sensitivity of this species. Two turkey vultures died and two became so intoxicated they were euthanized. Overall, responses of measured parameters were comparable to other species exposed to lead although there was considerable individual variation. Survival time (143–211 days), even with the large numbers of shot and constant redosing, was much longer than reported for other species of birds, suggesting considerable tolerance by turkey vultures to the deleterious effects of lead ingestion. Based on these observations, turkey vultures appear to be poor models for assessing the risk of lead poisoning to California condors or predicting their physiologic response.

[BrentD]

From PLOS1

Impact of the California Lead Ammunition Ban on Reducing Lead Exposure in Golden Eagles and Turkey Vultures

Terra R. Kelly ,
Peter H. Bloom,
Steve G. Torres,
Yvette Z. Hernandez,
Robert H. Poppenga,
Walter M. Boyce,
Christine K. Johnson













http://journals.plos.org/plosone/resource/img/logo.plos.95.png





Published: April 6, 2011
DOI: 10.1371/journal.pone.0017656




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AbstractPredatory and scavenging birds may be exposed to high levels of lead when they ingest shot or bullet fragments embedded in the tissues of animals injured or killed with lead ammunition. Lead poisoning was a contributing factor in the decline of the endangered California condor population in the 1980s, and remains one of the primary factors threatening species recovery. In response to this threat, a ban on the use of lead ammunition for most hunting activities in the range of the condor in California was implemented in 2008. Monitoring of lead exposure in predatory and scavenging birds is essential for assessing the effectiveness of the lead ammunition ban in reducing lead exposure in these species. In this study, we assessed the effectiveness of the regulation in decreasing blood lead concentration in two avian sentinels, golden eagles and turkey vultures, within the condor range in California. We compared blood lead concentration in golden eagles and turkey vultures prior to the lead ammunition ban and one year following implementation of the ban. Lead exposure in both golden eagles and turkey vultures declined significantly post-ban. Our findings provide evidence that hunter compliance with lead ammunition regulations was sufficient to reduce lead exposure in predatory and scavenging birds at our study sites.

[NavyVet1959]

They evolved in the era of megafauna and need large amounts of meat to survive compared to turkey vultures. Unfortunately for them, people seem to find large rotting carcasses laying around somewhat distasteful and want them removed.

www.chron.com/bayarea/article/Burial-at-the-beach-Rotting-whales-going-more-6273109.php



An excavator jabbed its claw into a Pacifica beach Tuesday morning, carving out the first of two holes in the sand that will become burial sites for a pair of whales that washed ashore and then became too stinky for neighbors’ liking.

The big dig at Sharp Park State Beach began at 8 a.m., could continue for a couple of days. and will cost the San Francisco Recreation and Park Department $40,000 because it maintains the property, said officials overseeing the unusual “quality of life” operation.

They said the whales will be dragged into the holes, starting with the northernmost — and smelliest — of the two, a 42-foot female humpback. As the job kicked off, one onlooker watched the excavator from afar, as workers had blocked off the area with yellow caution tape.

The humpback whale washed up May 5 with injuries consistent with blunt force trauma, and might have been hit by a ship, said researchers after performing a necropsy on the beach. They found four broken vertebrae, surrounding hemorrhaging and a broken rib.

A 48-foot sperm whale washed up April 14 about a quarter-mile south of the humpback. Scientists could not pin down a cause of death in the earlier case, but ruled out the possibility that the sperm whale had been struck by a ship.

The two whales have inspired gawkers and marine biologists to visit the beach, but who would take care of the corpses was a bit of a debate. The city initially decided to let the whales decompose where they lay, the method endorsed by marine biologists, but some said the smell was just too much.

http://ww3.hdnux.com/photos/35/66/46/7825822/35/622x350.jpg