New Law Question ?

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
I was up at the range in a forest service clearing that I have been shooting at for 5 -6 yrs now as it is the only place nearby you can shoot 350 yds.
Well there is a new forest service sign saying no shooting within 150 yds of a forest service road. And cites 16usc55136cfr261.10 (d) as the code.
Last time I read the ut. hunting proclamation you only had to be 15ft. off the road to shoot.
Has anyone heard of this law/rule?
Does anyone here know what it says?
To say the least I'm upset about this!

[The Nyack Kid]

im in trouble then . i do a lot of hunting behind gates and game is oftain seen and shot while walking on the road . my under standing was you had to be 300 ft off of a highway and in the ditch when hunting on gravel roads . The Forest Circuss is infamous for coming up with STUPID ,DUMB ,IDIOTODIC MORONIC ,CONTADICTORY , REDTAPISH , ********TISH ,LAUGHABLE (if you weren't the guy who had to comply with them ) NONSENCE, WHATTHEHECKWERETHEYSMOKING , rules , laws and regulations . just ask any logger who has to deal with them people? .

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
Well the tree hugger cop started to tear apart the range right in frount of me, & when I asked why he said ,"I'm trying to discourage any shooting here." They had already called the county sherrif with out saying anything. As soon as he arrived , they started spouting off about it being illegal to shoot unless you were 150yds from a improved road.
I replied w/ :
1) this is not a improved road, it is a dirt road.
2) Ut. state law says you only have to be 15ft off a road to shoot or hunt.
The sherrif deputy asked where my gun was & I said it was in my truck.
He waited till the forest circus guys left & asked about my truck registration & then left.

[AZ Pete]

Here is some of the plain language of the subject Code of Federal Regulations (CFR). 36 CFR is the code that applies to managing National Forests and some other federally managed lands.



Do Not use a firearm or any other implement
capable of taking human life, causing injury or
damage to property. (36CFR261.10(d);
1) In or within 150 yards of a residence,
building, campsite, developed recreation site
or other occupied area or;
2) Across or on a Forest Development road,
or a body of water adjacent thereto, or in
any manner or place whereby any person or
property is exposed to injury or damage as a
result of such discharge.
3) Into or within any cave.


You can do a search on the United States Code also, I suspect is only the Code that 36 CFR is tiered under.


I would tell you the the FS LEO is ignorant of his authorities, but that won't make a big difference to you if you get cited into the US Magestrages Court. It will be pain in the ass.

Probably the best thing would be to secure a copy of the CFR's (they use to be on the web and probably still are, in their full form). The CFR's are in plain language. Then write the the District Ranger or Forest Supervisor telling they what you experienced and what your own research has shown. Ask for his interpretation of the words. My only guess is that they are trying to say the road is an "occupied area". The only flaw in that is that roads are addressed separaely, which leads me to believe that they are different. In practice, occupied areas should be where people are camping, living, picnicing, or having some kind of group event, or gathering at a trail head, etc. (by the way the camp grounds, trail heads and other developed sites and buildings need not be occupied to require the 150 yard distance)

Good luck. As I said before I think the FS LEO is ignorant of his regulations. If the FS is having trouble with "wildcat" shooting ranges (littering, resource damage, shooting across a hiking trail etc.) I believe that the regulations require that the Forest Supervisor formulate, sign and post an area closure to that effect, not use one of the "general prohibitions" of 36 CFR 261.

PS: you should also contact your local NRA representative, they have worked with the FS on similar issues in other states and may provide some help to you and your fellow shooters in Utah.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
Well I called the head ranger's office , had to leave a message , left a message also on her cell phone. I want a copy of the admistrative rule, I'm sure it is not a law that anybody voted on . I also want to know if public input can get it changed. Then I want to know how to go about doing just that!

[AZ Pete]

HI,
Well I called the head ranger's office , had to leave a message , left a message also on her cell phone. I want a copy of the admistrative rule, I'm sure it is not a law that anybody voted on . I also want to know if public input can get it changed. Then I want to know how to go about doing just that!


Let me know how it goes.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
Well I called the forest dist. head ramger over this section of forest over a wk ago, 2 times & left a message twice . Have gotten no reply.

[grumble]

The head FS ranger has no reason to reply to you, nothing good can come of it. They can simply exercise their power as arrogantly as they choose unless you do something to get them off the dime. Write a letter (not email) to their office, addressed by name if you can. If no response after 2-3 weeks, write your congressman, including a copy of the letter. Tell the congress critter that you would like a response of some sort, even if it isn't what you want to hear. Puts some real pressure on the FS people.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
Went up to shoot today, at the big clearing on squaw peak. Saw 4 deer & 6 wild turkeys. As I was unloading a steel plate 2 forest service guys came down the road on 4 wheelers. Stopped & checked me out. 1 said you can't shoot here see the sign. I said the sign says no shooting within 150 yds. of the road. I got a big tape measure & measured to make sure I'm 150yds from the road. They said well don't leave garbage . I said ,See the steel plate I've got 2 with me & I don't ever leave them here.
Then I said how can I get a copy of that law refered to the sign. They said call the regional office. I said I did & have left 2 phone messeges with no reply. Then 1 of them got his citation book out of his backpack & showed me the FS RULE which I read out loud to them & pointed out it did not say you had to be 150yds from a road but from structures,buildings, & campgrounds. So they left.
So I set up 1 plate at 150yds to shoot at w/ the wifes 357, & another plate at 350yds to shoot at w/ my 7mm mag.
1st 50 only hit 10 times w/ the 357.
2nd 50 got 13 hits.BLAH !
With the 7mm I did even worse. Only 6 hits out of 26 shots at 350yds..
How depressing ! I guess that I'll give it up for the winter as there is suppost to be a big snow storm here next week & there is already patches of snow around the clearing. It's starting to get muddy too.

[AZ Pete]

OK Boom Boom, Here's the web link the the Code of Federal Regulations, and a complete version of 36 CFR 261.10. The FS guys you ran into on the 4 wheelers were probably Level 2, Forest Protection Officer certified. They received about 40 hours of training on all of the general prohibitions...in other words they are not highly trained or knowledgable about the regulations that apply the National Forest management. No need to argue with them, they are only doing as they have been trained. If you have not written the District Ranger or Forest Supervisor regarding this issue, you really should. Going to court is a pain in the ass, even when you are right, and even when you are right you can loose.


Good luck.

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/get-cfr.cgi


PART 261_PROHIBITIONS--Table of Contents

Subpart A_General Prohibitions

Sec. 261.10 Occupancy and use.

The following are prohibited:
(a) Constructing, placing, or maintaining any kind of road, trail,
structure, fence, enclosure, communications equipment, or other
improvement on National Forest System lands or facilities without a
special use authorization, contract, or approved operating plan, unless
such authorization, contract, or operating plan is waived pursuant to
Sec. 251.50(e) of this chapter.
(b) Taking possession of, occupying, or otherwise using National
Forest System lands for residential purposes without a special-use
authorization, or as otherwise authorized by Federal law or regulation.
(c) Selling or offering for sale any merchandise or conducting any
kind of work activity or service unless authorized by Federal law,
regulation, or special-use authorization.
(d) Discharging a firearm or any other implement capable of taking
human life, causing injury, or damaging property as follows:
(1) In or within 150 yards of a residence, building, campsite,
developed recreation site or occupied area, or
(2) Across or on a National Forest System road or a body of water
adjacent thereto, or in any manner or place whereby any person or
property is exposed to injury or damage as a result in such discharge.
(3) Into or within any cave.
(e) Abandoning any personal property.

[[Page 352]]

(f) Placing a vehicle or other object in such a manner that it is an
impediment or hazard to the safety or convenience of any person.
(g) Commercial distribution of printed material without a special
use authorization.
(h) When commercially distributing printed material, delaying,
halting, or preventing administrative use of an area by the Forest
Service or other scheduled or existing uses or activities on National
Forest System lands; misrepresenting the purposes or affiliations of
those selling or distributing the material; or misrepresenting the
availability of the material without cost.
(i) Operating or using in or near a campsite, developed recreation
site, or over an adjacent body of water without a permit, any device
which produces noise, such as a radio, television, musical instrument,
motor or engine in such a manner and at such a time so as to
unreasonably disturb any person.
(j) Operating or using a public address system, whether fixed,
portable or vehicle mounted, in or near a campsite or developed
recreation site or over an adjacent body of water without a special-use
authorization.
(k) Use or occupancy of National Forest System land or facilities
without special-use authorization when such authorization is required.
(l) Violating any term or condition of a special-use authorization,
contract or approved operating plan.
(m) Failing to stop a vehicle when directed to do so by a Forest
Officer.
(n) Failing to pay any special use fee or other charges as required.
(o) Discharging or igniting a firecracker, rocket or other firework,
or explosive into or within any cave.

[42 FR 2957, Jan. 14, 1977, as amended at 46 FR 33520, June 30, 1981; 49
FR 25450, June 21, 1984; 53 FR 16550, May 10, 1988; 59 FR 31152, June
17, 1994; 60 FR 45295, Aug. 30, 1995; 66 FR 3218, Jan. 12, 2001; 69 FR
41965, July 13, 2004]

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
The fs are on that road patroling every time I go up to shoot now days.
Last yr. I saw them maybe 1 time. The yr before about only 1 time too.
Guess they have to write more tickets to pay for the new fancy 4 wheelers.

[Montanan]

Well just have a copy of the complete FR 261.10 Regulations.

Here you can print off the whole regulations to have and carry.

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&rgn=div6&view=text&node=36:2.0.1.1.18.1&idno=36

If phone calls don't work get your local Right Wing Talk Radio Station involved, they got an audiance of 1,000's who will. Get the public to hold them accountable and get the sign changed this way.

Take and reprint the 261.10 on card stock and staple over the top of the other signage etc....

Take care