Ball Ammo Size?

[Babbott213]

I picked up a repro 1851 Navy in .44cal used for a good price. $120 bucks. I've been reading up on a few things to learn before I pull the trigger for the first time. I've seen where the ball size to shoot in this pistol is .454, but I got a box of Hornady .451 ball ammo with the gun. What's your thoughts on using these ball ammo? I've got the lubed patches and bore butter and have still yet to find #10 caps or real FFF black powder. All the FFF I can find is the black powder substitute. Any problems with using it?

[docone31]

.451 is iffy. .454 is the best. Use Crisco for lube, or mix in 50% Beeswax with the Crisco.
I use Pyrodex in mine.s #10 caps, Pyrodex, .454 balls, and lots of lube.
I love it.
Make sure you clean it after a shoot.
Is it brass frame, or steel?

[Babbott213]

It's a brass frame. From the marking it appears to be a Uberti. I'm just trying to get all the info I can before pulling the trigger on it. The gun is in great shape and clean too. One thing though is the slide to take the gun apart is a bear to get out. Pretty much have to pry it out to take the gun down. Is this normal, or does this need some massaging a bit? I've got 100 of the .451 ball ammo so if they would be safe to use I'll give them a try. I plan on loading with the lowest recommended load anyway.

[Lever-man]

It needs to shave a small ring of lead from the ball all the way around to be the correct size, if it don't you run the risk of a chain fire even with plenty of lube. Criso works about as good as anything. If you don't mind the extra cost Wonder wads are a lot cleaner. I run Triple Seven in my 1860 Old Army with 454 balls and #10 caps. I found it cleaner than Pyrodex and cleans up easily with hot water.

[Babbott213]

Ok Lever-Man. I bought the lubed wads and the bore butter to start with. But I've read about using crisco as well. I seen a pound of Triple Seven today at the store. They also had two pound of Trail Boss as well. Started to grab it but I've been loading my 45LC with Unique and like it pretty good, but I might go back and grab the Trail Boss just to have in my cabinet for a just in case though. I can see this BP Revolver can be another addiction too!

[Lever-man]

Don't think the trail boss would be a good idea. These guns are to be used only with black powder or black powder substitute. I don't think trail boss is considered a black powder substitute. Unique isn't either. They are a lot of fun, but give them the respect they deserve and be safe! I tested mine once against a 38 special and the 44 BP would be a lot more deadly in my opinion.

[Babbott213]

Mis-understood me Lever-Man. I was talking about the TrailBoss and Unique for my .45LC guns and rifle. Not my BP pistol. No way would I try that. I'm really only looking at using real BP if I can find it. If not, then I'll have to use a BP substitute then.

[Lever-man]

Sorry, just wouldn't want anyone to get hurt, because it has happened.

[Babbott213]

I have heard about the stories. Not good!! Thanks for the info. I plan on buying up some more inventory of stuff so when I do start to shoot, I'll have plenty to shoot with so to get familiar with all of the procedures of loading and shooting. Then there is the cleaning part!!

[Babbott213]

How about the American Pioneer BP Substitute for FFFG, anybody use that powder in their BP revolvers? I know I can get plenty of that but I was really wanting the real deal as I also wanted to do some blanks for my 45LC as well.

[rodwha]

When 3F Triple 7 was hard to find locally I found that ordering 3 lbs from Grafs negated the HazMat fee. They sell several kinds of BP.

I intend to hunt with mine and use nothing but the more energetic powders (Triple 7 and Olde Eynsford, along with Swiss). I've used Pyrodex but didn't like it. The fouling has a sticky quality, and though cleaning soon after negates it, the fouling is much more corossive than BP.

Oh, and for a brass framed .44 I've seen that 20-25 grns is about the max charge you'd want to use as anything stiffer will hammer the recoil shield and increase the cylinder gap.

[dondiego]

One thing though is the slide to take the gun apart is a bear to get out. Pretty much have to pry it out to take the gun down. Is this normal, or does this need some massaging a bit?

If this is a Colt clone, you don't need to take out the take down "slide" to disassemble the pistol. It (the wedge) is designed to stay with the frame.

[Babbott213]

Correct, the wedge stays with the frame, but it is a bear to get it to the point to be able to take the gun down. It's a very, very tight fit. It should not require hammering to get it out and back in should it. I have to take a brass punch to remove it to the point of taking the gun down and then I have to use my rubber side of my gunsmith hammer to get it back in. There is a screw in the side of the frame that keeps the wedge intact to the frame, and I've thought about removing it to remove the wedge to maybe massage it a bit with a fine file so it's not so tight. Field stripping this thing would be impossible in the brush.

[Southron]

Brass frame revolvers tend to "stretch" over time IF HEAVY CHARGES OF POWDER ARE FIRED IN THEM. Another benefit is that moderate powder charges usually produce better accuracy.

[fouronesix]

There is a screw in the side of the frame that keeps the wedge intact to the frame, and I've thought about removing it to remove the wedge to maybe massage it a bit with a fine file so it's not so tight. Field stripping this thing would be impossible in the brush.

That's what I would do. You can remove the wedge, use a felt tip and completely mark it, insert fully, then remove. Lightly dress only the rub marks. May have to do this a couple of times- checking each time. Probably better to leave it on the slightly snug side than to remove too much material. Over time it will swage, loosen and "wear in" on its own.

Most originals have mars and marks on both ends of the wedge from having to beat them in and out with whatever.

[Babbott213]

Thank You!!

[Omnivore]

If it's a model of '51 in 44 caliber,it's not an Uberti. I don't believe Uberti made a brasser either. If they did at some point in the past, they quit doing it. More than likely you have a Pietta.

I'd leave the wedge alone for now. It may be that the gun wasn't fired much, if at all. Give it some time to work itself in. Chances are you'll not need to remove the barrel in the field, and besides you can take a punch with you. After a few outings and cleanings, you may find that the wedge gives up its stubbornness. If not, then you can still work on it.

Piettas tend to want their wedges tapped in and out. Uberti does thing differently; they don't have any support between barrel and cylinder arbor, and so you're adjusting the cylinder gap depending on how far you push the wedge in. I think it's a terrible system, but some people like the fact that they can use thumb pressure to install or remove the wedge. With a Pietta a little light tapping is needed because they do it more correctly.

If you're really new at this, patience will pay off more than any little tweaks you can do at this stage. Shoot it as is, and see now it goes for a while.

I don't understand the "I can't find this or that powder" assertion. It comes up a lot too. You obviously have a computer with internet connectivity or you wouldn't be on this forum. That means you can in fact find any powder you want, any time, twenty four hours a day, seven days a week, and on holidays. I could drive 40 minutes from my place of work to buy black powder over the counter, but I order it on line anyway. It save hours per purchase (and gallons of gasoline), and I can always get exactly what I want. Same goes for you, and everyone capable of reading this post. Same goes for caps. You have the entire world of commerce at your fingertips, so don't ever say you "can't find" unless global stores are depleted. I took shipment on some Remington #10 caps just the other day.

Here's a shooting tip that doesn't get nearly the attention it needs. After each cylinder full, blow gently over the cylinder face as you turn it, and blow down the bore. The moisture in your breath will instantly free up the cylinder and help keep fouling from accumulating in the bore. Do it only on an empty gun, please.

[fouronesix]

Babbott,
If that wedge is too tight from the get-go it's not right. Likely a mass produced gun assembled from bins full of generic parts that were not fitted or checked during assembly. They simply put the parts together and use a mallet to seat the wedge, package them up and ship them out.

Having to beat on one to get it in and out is not the way they are supposed to be. Snug, friction fit- correct , too tight and misfit- not correct. They should require a light tap to remove and a light tap to re-seat. A plastic headed mallet is the best tool.

[Babbott213]

This is why I'm thinking it is a Uberti. This looks just like the Uberti logo to me from their website.

[Babbott213]

Omnivore, I do understand that I can order the powder that I want, but I'd like to find a good source close to me, mostly due to the Hazmat charges. I know the more pounds I buy the better the Hazmat charge would be, but I'd like to start with one pound of powder vs. eight pounds that I may or may not use. If I cannot find any in any of the stores close to me then I will resort to ordering BP online. I have yet to call BassPro to see if they have it in stock and there is a few more I still need to check. It's not top priority for me yet, so for right now I'm doing a little research and making notes.

[Omnivore]

Sure enough; that's the Uberti logo. It must be more than a few years old, because I've seen nothing like that in recent years from Uberti.

[mooman76]

BP subs should be fine but I would stay away from 777. It's more powerful and you don't want to wear out your brass framed revolver, stick to light loads but it's up to you. I like Pyrodex P myself for pistols when I can't get the real stuff. 451 balls should work fine but probably not the best accuracy wise.

[Babbott213]

Thanks for that info Moonman. Not really going for accuracy at this point. Just want to get all the basics down first. That's why I'm here asking the questions. If I do use the .451's I may just load and fire one at a time just so I get my loading routine down and if I do load more than one then I'll be sure to seal the bore up real well too boot.

[mooman76]

There are some who believe (myself included) that you don't get chain fires through the muzzle end of the cyl. As long as the ball is a good fit I don't see how a flam can get past the ball to ignite the powder. We believe it is from poor fitting caps that flam over to the next cyl cap and set it off.

[Babbott213]

That makes perfect sense to me. I mean if the ball is metal to metal tite I would think that it would be hard to set off the powder on the front end myself. But, I'm not an expert either, so I do as I'm instructed.

[wcandres]

What Triple 7 load do you find to be most accurate? It seems my Pietta 44 cal. "Navy" likes heavier loads (24gr), but I'm concerned about excess wear. How high would you go (with a steel framed 1851 Pietta)?

Bill


When 3F Triple 7 was hard to find locally I found that ordering 3 lbs from Grafs negated the HazMat fee. They sell several kinds of BP.

I intend to hunt with mine and use nothing but the more energetic powders (Triple 7 and Olde Eynsford, along with Swiss). I've used Pyrodex but didn't like it. The fouling has a sticky quality, and though cleaning soon after negates it, the fouling is much more corossive than BP.

Oh, and for a brass framed .44 I've seen that 20-25 grns is about the max charge you'd want to use as anything stiffer will hammer the recoil shield and increase the cylinder gap.

[Omnivore]

The jury is still out, as far as I'm concerned, regarding the cause of chain fire, but there is one fellow, John Fuhring, who claims to have scientifically proven that they come from the front;
http://www.geojohn.org/BlackPowder/bps2.html

In short, he was able to create a chain fire at will by leaving powder granules around the chamber mouth while loading the ball, creating what he calls a "crushed powder train". He further states that grease over the ball does little to nothing to prevent such a chain fire, and says he demonstrated it. He also says he was NOT able to produce a chain fire by leaving the caps off of adjacent nipples.

With such a set of claims, it is my assertion that in order to disprove them, one would need to carefully duplicate Fuhring's experiments. All else would be speculation. I've never had a chain fire (sometimes also referred to as a cross fire) even when I had caps fall off and fired adjacent chambers.

Further, while we're speculating, there may be another cause; a lose cap, such as an over-sized one that's been squeezed to make it stay on. I don't believe Fuhring explored this one. Leaving the cap off altogether doesn't seem to do it, but this is a different scenario. It could be that the flash from an adjacent chamber gets inside the cap, igniting the cap explosive, setting off the charge that way. Since a lot of people pinch their over-sized caps on a regular basis without incident, so if that chain fire mechanism occurs at all it's very rare and as such would be difficult to test. There are little protective covers, made of a paper-like material, over the explosive though, and sometimes those little covers fall out before the cap gets used. Remington caps do this a lot, and so maybe that protective cover needs to be absent, AND the cap needs to loose. This is pure speculation on my part, and so we don't know without conclusive proof.

Using a defective ball, or a ball that's too small, would probably be another cause, and from what I've seen happen to other people it seems to me that dinged chamber mouths, which cut a channel in the ball during seating, would be yet another.

Regarding the matter of mail ordering powder; seven thousand grains of black will make 250 loads using 28 grains. That's three or four outings for me, which is not a large commitment. Substitutes are a lot less dense than black, and so a pound of Pyro or 777 would make for significantly more loads of the same volume. Maybe four or five outings. The point being that ordering several pounds would not result in a lifetime supply or anything serious like that. At first I'd drive a ways to get powder once in a while. I'd get several pounds at a time to make the trip worthwhile, and went through more than few pounds that way. I've since ordered powder on line several times, and I'm about ready to do it again. To repeat then, three to five pounds is not a huge commitment, and in one order you can get several different powders to try.

[rodwha]

Wcandres: my Pietta Remington '58 has done better with 30 grns of either 3F Triple 7 or Olde Eynsford powder. This has been with a 170 and 195 grn bullet. I didn't do enough shooting with a ball (I use .457" with reamed chambers of .449") to say with certainty, but believe it likely about the same as it is what my Ruger has shown. But to be fair I use a rifle measure with gradients of 10 grains making a 5 grain difference a little bit of a guess, and I haven't tried anything other than "5" grain differences beginning at 25 grns.

[bedbugbilly]

Babbott213 - everyone had their "favorite" lubes for use with BP. As already mentioned - Crisco works fine - I've used it for over 50 years in BP revolvers and to grease the bases of minie balls for rifled musket. I don't know your location but just keep in mind, if the weather is hot, Crisco can get a little "runny". If you run in to that problem - try adding the beeswax as suggested. I now mainly use a mixture of Crisco and beeswax. I combine a pound container of Crisco with one toilet bowl beeswax ring (if you can find the old style beeswax ring - a lot of the new ones are not true beeswax). I put the components together in a tupperware bowl, slip it in the microwave to melt it (don't overdo it) and then stir and pour into containers for handy use. I have a supply of empty musket cap tins and they work well. I haven't tried it yet but I'm thinking the small plastic yogurt or pudding cups might work well if they don't melt when you pour the mixture in? I'm going to try it and see the next time I mix some up. I normally pour into the container and then set it in the refrigerator to harden it up quicker. Lots of different ways to do it and lots of combinations of lube materials.

Good luck with your new revolver! Be safe and have fun!