Paper-patching grooved bullets ???

[bcp477]

It has occurred to me that paper-patching might offer a solution to my need to find a load that will shoot a 170 - 175 grain bullet, roughly 2000 fps. I have studied the idea a bit...and done some experimentation on some bullets that I have (though I have not loaded or fired any). Making and rolling the paper patches does not seem any real problem - I did about 15 bullets for experimentation - and getting the hang of it wasn't difficult. Several questions come to mind, though.

1) I am shooting the 8 x 57 cartridge ("8mm Mauser"). There are plenty of plain-based bullets around for the old .32/40....sized .321" to .322". I am wondering if starting with bullets of .321" and paper-patching them might be a creative way to get better velocities from such bullets ? Am I right in believing that paper-patched bullets are usually NOT gas-checked ? What approximate BHN is good for paper-patched bullets ?

2) I believe that most paper-patched bullets in fact do not have lube grooves (they have straight, smooth sides ?). Is this correct ? Any reason that a bullet WITH lube grooves won't work for paper- patching ? The bullets I prepared for experimentation I lubed with LLA, after the paper-jackets dried. Is this workable ?

Unless told that this is a stupid idea, I think that I will get some .321" sized bullets, the next time I order...and try the paper-patching idea. ANY advice would be appreciated.

[idahoron]

I am PP'ing bullets with grooves for my Muzzleloaders. I can't see why it wouldn't work. You could PP them then run them through a sizer back to .323 if you need to. After I pour my bullets I size them then I PP them and size them again. I am seeing great accuracy with them. Ron
http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd294/idahoron/458gr501-1.jpg

[kodiak1]

bcp477 paper patching with what you have in mind is the cats pjamas.
I do this to 457 bullets for my 11.7 Danish Roller.
Works like hot damn.
It is a lot cheaper than a custom cut mould.
Ken.

[Buckshot]

http://www.fototime.com/0FDEA25C2215222/standard.jpg

..............Paper patched 'As Cast' Lee 457-405F's at .472" over the dried patch (20lb paper) for a MkIV 577-450 Martini-Henry.

................Buckshot

[pdawg_shooter]

ALL my patched bullets are grooved. I prefer them that way. The grooves seam to hold a bit more lube, and that cant be bad.

[ktw]

These are the paper patched grease groove bullets I have been shooting in a 38-55. In my experience you can push them faster that a conventional lead bullet and you can skip the gas check.

I have been lubing them with a very light finger application of Lee Liquid Alox over the dried patch.

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g232/ktwna/PP_ly375449.jpg

-ktw

[bcp477]

Outstanding ! Thanks, gentlemen, that is exactly what I wanted to hear (how often does THAT happen ?) I will definitely try paper patching, then.

Actually, I have a few bullets already patched and lubed (lubed with Liquid Alox)...ready to load. I will order some plain-base, 170 grain pills, sized at .321"....to try in my 8mm Mauser. I have some vellum paper ("onion skin"....#9, I think)...that measures 0.0015" thick. If I wrap them twice, that will total .327"....perhaps a bit too thick. .318" bullets would seem to be the perfect size - but not available, as far as I can find. However, I have worked out a way to wrap them only once - with a small amount of overlap. By applying a SMALL amount of yellow glue to the wetted paper, just where the paper jacket will overlap - I can get the paper jacket to hold together. I am very careful to prevent gluing the paper to the bullet (I KNOW that this is NOT good)....and have figured out a way to do it, via practice. I have even taken to adding an extra pc. of paper on the base of the jacket, to cover the folded- over end, using a bit of yellow glue again. The finished result is pretty, if I do say so myself. The finished size is right about .324". We'll see how they shoot.....

Of course, it occurs to me that I can experiment with the thickness of the paper "jacket" (number or turns)....to see if a finished size of larger than .324" will work better....or smaller, for that matter...once I get some smaller dia. bullets to try.

I had thought of obtaining a bullet sizing die, to resize bullets larger than I can use....but, the sizes I find (the Lee dies - I can't afford to get an entire lube/sizing machine) are either .323"....or .314" - nothing in between. Sizing the .321" bullets to .314" would seem to work...but then I'd need to wrap them 3 TURNS, to get back to .323" in finished diameter. That seems a bit much. Of course, it may, at some point be possible to get Lee to custom - modify a die for me....to .318" (this would still likely cost less than a lube/ sizer from one of the other manufacturers of reloading equipment). But, for now, I think that I will try the .321" bullets (a bullet designed for the old .32/40....a flat-nose, plain base 170 grain, with two lube grooves - RCBS mold #32-170-RN)....wrapped ONE turn. 19 grains of Alliant 2400 seems to work well with the Lee 175 grain, gas-checked bullet (in my rifle)...and produces about 1700 fps....so, I'll start there. One turn is perhaps too thin a "jacket"....and may be damaged in the bore (and not work well) too easily....but I will find out via experimentation. 3 wraps of a .314" diameter bullet might be OK, in the end.....who knows ? Anyway - I have some experimentation to do (which I always enjoy).

Or, perhaps the bullets sized to .314".....with thicker paper for the patches. Hmmm....there are all kinds of possibilities.

My goal is to develop a load with these cheap, plain-base bullets, if possible, that will get to about 2000 fps at the muzzle....and will thus be hot enough for whitetail deer...with acceptable accuracy. Anyway, I am excited as to the prospect - it will be worth it (and fun) to experiment, regardless.

Again, if any of you paper-patching veterans have any input....I'll be grateful for any advice.

[Buckshot]

"I will order some plain-base, 170 grain pills, sized at .321"....to try in my 8mm Mauser. I have some vellum paper ("onion skin"....#9, I think)...that measures 0.0015" thick. If I wrap them twice, that will total .327"...."

Nope, .326" as you'll lose about a thou when the paper shrinks when it dires.

"I had thought of obtaining a bullet sizing die, to resize bullets larger than I can use....but, the sizes I find (the Lee dies - I can't afford to get an entire lube/sizing machine) are either .323"....or .314" - nothing in between."

Make your own, 'In Between'. The Lee push through dies have a very thin section that sizes to the desired size. Trust me that they will polish out several thousandths pretty quickly depending upon the grit you start with. With a few drill bits in a drill press you can also make quick work of altering sizes. A 5/16 = .3125", Lee makes a .314", a 8mm bit = .315, a letter 'O' is .316", an 8.1mm is .3189 and an 8.2mm is .3228".

You should understand also that the OD stamped on the bit isn't the actual hole size as drill bits tend to make slightly larger holes. Run out in the drill press, chuck and the quality of the bit will all have an effect.

By sizing the slug beforehand, by paper selection, and also by sizing AFTER patching you can end up with about any finished OD you wanted.

.................Buckshot

[bcp477]

Excellent information ! Thanks !!!!!!!

Actually, I did a bit more research on this. I found that, if I start with a bullet sized to .314"....then do two wraps of 20 lb bond paper.....this will work out to just about .325" - (the paper is between .0025" and .0030" inches thick). Then, if I lose about .001" as the paper dries....I will be at just about .324". Sounds like a good possibility to try.

I will definitely get the Lee .314" bullet sizing die. If using the die as-built doesn't work.....I can always enlarge it, as you suggested.

I am very encouraged. Thanks !!!

[Buckshot]

................Hmmmmm, 20 lb paper I've used is .004". The 9lb (25% cotton, airmail) paper is generally .002".

....................Buckshot

[bcp477]

The 9 lb (vellum or "onion skin") that I have measures .0015" (it is also 25 % cotton content).....regular lined notebook paper measures .0020"....and the 20 lb (maybe it's not really 20 lb ??) - computer printer bond paper anyway - measures between .0025" and .0030". I am sure of the dimensions of the vellum and notebook paper - they do not compress when measured with my micrometer (caliper). The "20 lb" (if that's what it is - perhaps I am mistaken) seems to compress a bit when measured....so I am not certain of it's thickness, other than to say that it is definitely is .0030" or less (I think closer to .0025"). I will take a look at the package of the bond paper - maybe it is not actually 20 lb. - good point. In any case, that's the paper I have here. For future reference and PP use....obviously, I need to be sure of what I am using.

[pdawg_shooter]

If you take the weight of the paper ( ie 16lb), divide by three and multiply by the number of wraps you use you will get a good idea of the increase of the bullet size. 16 divided by three = 5; times 2 = 10. therefore two wraps of 16lb paper after it dries and shrinks on the bullet will increase the diameter app. .010

[bcp477]

Good idea.....interesting. We are getting rather scientific with this issue of paper thickness, so it seems ? For my purposes, I'll probably just measure the finished patched bullets, after drying. Then, I will develop a "database" for myself, consisting of info such as......".314" bullet + 2 wraps of the bond paper, after drying equals .326".....and so on. I have taken note of your formula for future reference though. Thanks for posting it.

[pdawg_shooter]

Your are sure enough welcome. Any more 90% of my patches are cut from 16lb green bar computer paper. Where I work the print reports 5 or 6 inches thick every week that nobody looks at. Its free and handy.

[yeahbub]

bcp477, welcome to paper patching! It's an excellent way to cover a multitude of mismatched diameters and opening the door to "multi-tasking" a given boolit design. Only one of the several calibers I've PP'ed do I have a smooth-sided boolit for. All the rest are grooved, and, as pdawg notes, once the paper shrinks on, there's room to hold a bit more lube.

I also mess around with an 8mm on occasion and have gotten excellent results with PP'ing .30 cal boolits up to the needed diameters by using three wraps of 100% rag drafting vellum. It's usually .0025 and three wraps adds .014 - .015. This rifle likes a .325 - .326 dia for seating in the throat and a touch of resistance on closing the bolt. An added feature I've used to good effect is the addition of a single layer of good quality teflon tape over the paper before sizing to .325 if I'm going to push them to jacketed velocities. This does not eliminate the need for a bit of lube, so my loaded rounds get a brushed-on coat of LLA, which also water-proofs them in inclement weather. The three .30 cal designs I've used most successfully in 8mm are: Lyman 311466, Lee CTL312-160-2R and the Lee C312-185-1R cast of wheel weights metal and air cooled, usually with gas checks on them. I like the Lee 185gr best. The paper on the bore riding nose is large enough to be lightly engraved by the lands, providing good centering and support up front.

[bcp477]

Thanks ! I have made a note of your bullet choices, etc.