Suggested casting temperatures from RCBS Cast Bullet Manual

[ohland]

During today's genuflection before the Plumbous Calf, I tripped over this:

Page 19. Now, a reading from the Book of Armaments...

Extracted from “RCBS Cast Bullet Manual, Number 1”, RCBS, CCI, and Speer Research Staffs, Omark Industries, Lewiston, ID, 83501 Dec 1986. ISBN# 0-935632-07-7 ( hard Bound ) or ISBN# 0-935632-08-5 ( soft bound )

Page 19



Alloy

Brinell
Hardness
Number

Suggested
Casting
Temperature



Pure Lead
5

700



1:20Tin - Lead

10

700



1:10 Tin - Lead

11.5

700



Wheel Weights *

8 - 13

775



Linotype

22

775



(84% Lead, 12% Antimony, 4% Tin)





Heat Treated Wheel Weights
25 - 35

775




* Composition and properties vary.

NOTE: I bet HT WW means casting with WW and then HT it.

NOTE: As I am just as lazy as the next guy (or gal) I HATE double keying. Any way to insert either xls, rtf, or doc? Something?

[Mike W1]

I've never cast pure lead but haven't found it necessary to set my PID as high as those other temperatures they list. My preference is to cast as cool an alloy as possible and get decent fillout. They say Sn starts to oxidise out at 700° so I'd sooner be below that.

[ohland]

haven't found it necessary to set my PID as high as those other temperatures they list... Sn starts to oxidise out at 700° so I'd sooner be below that.

I have no clue as of this time whether any of this is gospel, but I know that casting on the cool side makes stuff hang off the ladle. Anyone got other points of reference?

[dragonrider]

I cast right around 725 degrees, casting at less than 700 gets me too many rejects. I cast using wheel weights only.

[bhn22]

The most common consensus seems to be to start at 100* above your alloys liquidus stage, and work up or down as needed to achieve your desired results. I've been casting a lot at 730*, which is slightly higher than my alloys 625* liquidus, or fully melted temperature. Do remember that different alloys melt at different temps, so one static temperature for every alloy you may use is unlikely to be adequate, and that alloys can be either eutectic, or non-eutectic, depending on their composition. All this needs to be taken into account.

[bangerjim]

That "gospel" goes against everything I have ever learned or seen.

Lots of good info here: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?66241-Melting-points-of-Lead-and-Alloys

Pure melts at a much higher temp that eutectic-ish alloys of Pb/Sn/Sb/etc.

Proof is in the pudding (in this case the casting pot). I can have a nice 3/4 full pot of 12Bhn alloy of Pb/Sn/Sb and when I add another ingot of the same thing it melts very fast. But....if I add an ingot of pure, it sits on the bottom and takes (seems like) forever to melt.

I do not measure temps with thermometers or controllers or anything else.....other than common sense and lots of experieince. I know if I heat my molds to full casting temp (6 on my lab hotplate dial) and I set my Lee 4-20 at 6.5, and when I drop my boolits in water the "talk to me" (sizzle sharply), I know my casting temp is perfect. And I get perfect boolits every time.

I feel too much emphasis is put on arriving at casting temp. It confuses newbees. Good casting comes from just getting out there and doing it, not worrying where to set the PID setting. Nice thing about casting lead (unlike all my other hobbies), do-overs are super easy!!!!!!!

Do some messing around and find what works for your personal needs and set-up. That is how I learned. Does not take a rocket scientist to cast good boolits......just some common sense and some hands on practice.

bangerjim

[bhn22]

I am beyond speechless over the last post! Just keep fumbling around until you figure something out? Why are we even here? Why is this forum, and others like it even in existence? We should all be sitting around the campfire, casting bullets in single cavity moulds for tomorrows "buffler" hunt.

[Le Loup Solitaire]

Suggestions by RCBS, Lyman, Saeco, Lee, etc are all appreciated and probably benefit the newcomers to casting, but I have found that my own experience has provided me with the necessary information to get the best results (for me) and it doesn't necessarily work as well for anybody else. Keep good notes on what you do and the results and be guided by them. LLS

[ohland]

Cast Bullets in Rifles, Cast Bullet Alloys, Part 2 of 4. Pages 15 - 18.

Yes, the addition of tin and / or antimony depresses the solidus temp. And the liquidus as well. So... In theory, even with casting 100F over liquidus with WW (pg 17), I should be able to cast at 650 and have no issues with freezing or "slag" hanging off my ladle. Possible, need to have moulds hot, need to bottom pour to remove any issues with ladle temp...

:popcorn:

[ohland]

eutectic, or non-eutectic, depending on their composition

My Lyman #4 is in the basement, not getting it up right now. For me, I'm using WW, and the alloy is a dog's breakfast, for all I know. Is discussion of eutectic, or non-eutectic, of any real value in my case?

[largom]

The suggestions by the mould manufacture's are just that "suggestions". Different moulds require different temperature's as do different casting techniques.

Larry

[bangerjim]

Suggestions by RCBS, Lyman, Saeco, Lee, etc are all appreciated and probably benefit the newcomers to casting, but I have found that my own experience has provided me with the necessary information to get the best results (for me) and it doesn't necessarily work as well for anybody else. Keep good notes on what you do and the results and be guided by them. LLS

bnh22 obviously does not agree with that or me either. Doing it is the best school on anything.

I read ideas but do what works best for me. Always. Everytime.

Suggestions are always welcome, but I have my own rules and regulations.

[bangerjim]

I am beyond speechless over the last post! Just keep fumbling around until you figure something out? Why are we even here? Why is this forum, and others like it even in existence? We should all be sitting around the campfire, casting bullets in single cavity moulds for tomorrows "buffler" hunt.

Obviously NOT that speechless! You totally read misnomers into my post!!!!!

Hands-on trial and error is the best way to learn any task. I have helped those that are starting out with simple seat-of-the-pants guidlines that do NOT involve PID's anything of the such to drop perfect boolits.

So many new casters on here seem to get lost in the weeds and almost scared to start casting from reading all the stories and data available on the net. And we DID cast good boolits pre-internet/youTube! Mabe not around your perverbial camp fire....although my grandfather sure did!

Experience is the best teacher. For all those starting out, just get out there, melt some lead and pour some boolits. You will learn rapidly what works and does not.

[PbHurler]

Do some messing around and find what works for your personal needs and set-up. That is how I learned. Does not take a rocket scientist to cast good boolits......just some common sense and some hands on practice.


Experience is the best teacher. For all those starting out, just get out there, melt some lead and pour some boolits. You will learn rapidly what works and does not.

bangerjim

Sage advice IMO

Enlightenment often stems from the question "What happens if.."

[dragon813gt]

If you don't use a thermometer at a minimum, it's all a WAG. Telling someone they don't need one is foolish. If you don't want to use a PID, I get it. But you should know what the alloy temp is. That temp is going to vary as the lead level drops in the pot. If you don't use a thermometer you don't realize just how much it varies, could be over a hundred degrees.

Why you wouldn't use what tools are available is beyond me. If you like screwing around w/out a clue have at it. But a thermometer is an invaluable tool. I wouldn't believe a single word from someone who says you shouldn't use one.

As far as alloy temp. I've found that it's dependent on mold type and ambient conditions. I have to run the alloy slightly hotter when it's below freezing in the garage. And a brass hollowpoint mold requires a hotter alloy to keep the pins hot. But w/ all that being said, and if you're casting w/ an alloy comparable to WW, I haven't found the need to raise the temp over 725. Oxidizing tin out is not something you want to do.

[jsizemore]

I am beyond speechless over the last post! Just keep fumbling around until you figure something out? Why are we even here? Why is this forum, and others like it even in existence? We should all be sitting around the campfire, casting bullets in single cavity moulds for tomorrows "buffler" hunt.

Our prevailing winds often come from the west. Sometimes it rains but often it just blows hot air. You get used to it after a while.

[oneMOA]

That "gospel" goes against everything I have ever learned or seen.

Lots of good info here: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?66241-Melting-points-of-Lead-and-Alloys

Pure melts at a much higher temp that eutectic-ish alloys of Pb/Sn/Sb/etc.

Proof is in the pudding (in this case the casting pot). I can have a nice 3/4 full pot of 12Bhn alloy of Pb/Sn/Sb and when I add another ingot of the same thing it melts very fast. But....if I add an ingot of pure, it sits on the bottom and takes (seems like) forever to melt.

I do not measure temps with thermometers or controllers or anything else.....other than common sense and lots of experieince. I know if I heat my molds to full casting temp (6 on my lab hotplate dial) and I set my Lee 4-20 at 6.5, and when I drop my boolits in water the "talk to me" (sizzle sharply), I know my casting temp is perfect. And I get perfect boolits every time.

I feel too much emphasis is put on arriving at casting temp. It confuses newbees. Good casting comes from just getting out there and doing it, not worrying where to set the PID setting. Nice thing about casting lead (unlike all my other hobbies), do-overs are super easy!!!!!!!

Do some messing around and find what works for your personal needs and set-up. That is how I learned. Does not take a rocket scientist to cast good boolits......just some common sense and some hands on practice.

bangerjim

Comments like this do the most harm in discouraging new casters who come to this forum for info. Unless you're casting boolits for plinking with your six-shooter where mold fill-out and weight consistancy doesn't matter, where anything above liquidus temp is good enough, then alloy temp is important. Sorting the wheat from the chaff is difficult for the newby who wants to start casting for quality, not quantity. So we have the two ends of the scale. The plinker with his six-shooter and 125 gn boolits and the precision caster making boolits for his BPCR using a 540 gn boolit. The six-shooter caster is good with most anything that comes out of his mold. The precision caster sorts his boolits by weight and finds very quickly that out of 100 boolits cast the weight spread is 3 or 4 gns, meaning a high percentage of those boolits go back in the pot as rejects.

Consistant alloy and mold temps means consistant boolits. Determining the best alloy temp for your particular mold and refining your pour technic cannot be avoided in the learning process, but it is totally foolish to add another variable into the equation like fluctuating alloy temp.

It is common practice on this forum and others for posters to make blanket statements like this while leaving out their goal in casting.........plinking, economy (scrap lead) or precision.

I fall into the precision caster category and yes I use a PID and foundry alloy because I wanted the best boolit I could make to help me attain my goal of, "oneMOA".

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Suggested casting temperatures from RCBS Cast Bullet Manual

...snip

Did RCBS mention if this was for ladle casting, or bottom pour casting ?
because it seems on the hot side for bottom pour casting. I've only attempted casting with a ladle twice, both times were not successful, but to be honest, that was before I started using a hotplate to preheat the mold...I just couldn't get the mold hot enough while ladle casting.

ALSO, I would think that when casting with pure lead, you would want a hotter temp than 700º

Just to clarify, most of my casting (bottom pour) is with COWW or a diluted version...or 94-3-3. I generally set the PID between 650º and 700º depending on cavity size and mold material.

[bhn22]

My Lyman #4 is in the basement, not getting it up right now. For me, I'm using WW, and the alloy is a dog's breakfast, for all I know. Is discussion of eutectic, or non-eutectic, of any real value in my case?

It's basically just background information to be honest. All I really suggest is to experiment with temps to get the best results. I've usually had troubles with moulds filling out completely, or even wrinkling a bit at lower temps. You're an intelligent guy, you'll sort out what works.

[bhn22]

If you don't use a thermometer at a minimum, it's all a WAG. Telling someone they don't need one is foolish. If you don't want to use a PID, I get it. But you should know what the alloy temp is. That temp is going to vary as the lead level drops in the pot. If you don't use a thermometer you don't realize just how much it varies, could be over a hundred degrees.

Why you wouldn't use what tools are available is beyond me. If you like screwing around w/out a clue have at it. But a thermometer is an invaluable tool. I wouldn't believe a single word from someone who says you shouldn't use one.

As far as alloy temp. I've found that it's dependent on mold type and ambient conditions. I have to run the alloy slightly hotter when it's below freezing in the garage. And a brass hollowpoint mold requires a hotter alloy to keep the pins hot. But w/ all that being said, and if you're casting w/ an alloy comparable to WW, I haven't found the need to raise the temp over 725. Oxidizing tin out is not something you want to do.

I didn't even want a PID, but the thermostat in my pot went out, and Lyman wouldn't sell me one unless they installed it. By the time I paid shipping both ways, the PID was half the cost of having Lyman replace my original "thermostat". I was content with the old ways, but I had to let go of another one. That said, it's really shocking to see how far temps drop when you add metal, or even a cold ladle to a hot pot. I now understand more about heat control than I ever considered.

[bhn22]

misnomer noun mis·no·mer \ˌmis-ˈnō-mər\
: a name that is wrong or not proper or appropriate





(http://www.merriam-webster.com/blog/budtender-as-marijuana-goes-legal-so-does-its-slang.htm)
Full Definition of MISNOMER1
: the misnaming (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/misnaming) of a person in a legal instrument

2
a : a use of a wrong or inappropriate name
b : a wrong name or inappropriate designation
— mis·no·mered


\-mərd\ adjective

[jsizemore]

Did RCBS mention if this was for ladle casting, or bottom pour casting ?
because it seems on the hot side for bottom pour casting. I've only attempted casting with a ladle twice, both times were not successful, but to be honest, that was before I started using a hotplate to preheat the mold...I just couldn't get the mold hot enough while ladle casting.

ALSO, I would think that when casting with pure lead, you would want a hotter temp than 700º

Just to clarify, most of my casting (bottom pour) is with COWW or a diluted version...or 94-3-3. I generally set the PID between 650º and 700º depending on cavity size and mold material.

The text prior to the temp chart covers both ladle and bottom pour casting. Could be that the temps run higher in their chart to cover ladle casting smaller boolits in steel/iron molds.

[bhn22]

The text prior to the temp chart covers both ladle and bottom pour casting. Could be that the temps run higher in their chart to cover ladle casting smaller boolits in steel/iron molds.

An excellent point.

[ohland]

It's basically just background information to be honest. All I really suggest is to experiment with temps to get the best results. I've usually had troubles with moulds filling out completely, or even wrinkling a bit at lower temps. You're an intelligent guy, you'll sort out what works.

Intelligent? I signed on the dotted line, can't be all that smart...

Went through the front of the Lyman #4, and it seems that aside from Venturino, nobody knows enough to pontificate.

Cast Bullets and Cast Pics have more useful info. Not saying that Mike is wrong, but somewhat long winded. My first impression of the RCBS CBM #1 was it was too simple to be worth it for a new caster. My view has changed. For someone that hasn't cast for reasonable boolits, the stuff is sorta "so what", but looking again as someone wanting better boolits, it answers some pretty chunkin' questions.

RCBS CBM #1, Introduction pg 6
"This manual is intended for the novice bullet caster... Our intention is to provide as much practical informaion as possible in a concise and understandable manner. Theory has been limited in deference to a more useful "How To" cookbook approach."

[ohland]

The text prior to the temp chart covers both ladle and bottom pour casting. Could be that the temps run higher in their chart to cover ladle casting smaller boolits in steel/iron molds.

So... can we then gather suitable data for those alloy types, one set for ladle, one set for bottom pour?

[bhn22]

The RCBS manual is pretty much clutter free, compared to Lymans offerings lately.

[jsizemore]

So... can we then gather suitable data for those alloy types, one set for ladle, one set for bottom pour?

That's supposing the higher alloy temp won't work for bottom pouring. Is that what you've found?

[pewterpig]

Hello. This is my first comment on here. I have read tons of post. This particular post is I think the most important to me. That said. I just acquired about two thousand pounds of lead from a friend. Most of it is wheel weights. Some is in small Inget forum. My question is this.

Should I check hardness of the existing ingest and adjust accordingly from that before casting bullets ,and should I make small batches of ingest from the wheel weights and do the same ? Kinda overwhelmed by the amount of lead and the next step. Thank you so much for considering my plight. Regards. Pewterpig.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

If you are gonna start casting for the first time, just do it. I guess I could suggest to use what you can precisely know is COWW, so if you have troubles, then at least you are 100% sure of the alloy. Once you get into this more, then you can investigate what the existing ingots are...and really once you processed and handled soft lead, COWW, Linotype, and Pewter ...you can easily see the differences.

[trebleplink]

I do use a PID controller - I think it really helps. When I cast .31 balls, I can do it as low as 660f. When I cast 1 oz svarog slugs I have to go to 750F to get good fillout.

[Conditor22]

During today's genuflection before the Plumbous Calf, I tripped over this:

Page 19. Now, a reading from the Book of Armaments...

Extracted from “RCBS Cast Bullet Manual, Number 1”, RCBS, CCI, and Speer Research Staffs, Omark Industries, Lewiston, ID, 83501 Dec 1986. ISBN# 0-935632-07-7 ( hard Bound ) or ISBN# 0-935632-08-5 ( soft bound )

Page 19



Alloy

Brinell
Hardness
Number

Suggested
Casting
Temperature



Pure Lead
5

700



1:20Tin - Lead

10

700



1:10 Tin - Lead

11.5

700



Wheel Weights *

8 - 13

775



Linotype

22

775



(84% Lead, 12% Antimony, 4% Tin)





Heat Treated Wheel Weights
25 - 35

775




* Composition and properties vary.

NOTE: I bet HT WW means casting with WW and then HT it.

NOTE: As I am just as lazy as the next guy (or gal) I HATE double keying. Any way to insert either xls, rtf, or doc? Something?


Interesting chart, I personally think they got it backward.

I do most of my casting (setting my PID) between 680 and 720° [except pure lead where I go 750°]

Melting Temps in F

Pure Lead 621
Monotype 512
LinoType 462
WW 560 (Per MSDS sheet)
10:1 563
20:1 590
30:1 600

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Interesting chart, I personally think they got it backward.

>>>SNIP
Conditor22,
You quoted 5 year old post, by a guy who hasn't logged in, since 2015.
While he did post some interesting things, and still does at another forum ;)
His posts usually need to be taken with a grain of salt.