450 Marlin or 45-70 Marlin

[bouncer50]

I do know the 450 Marlin is base on the 458 Mag case. But is really better then the old 45-70 brass case. You can find 45-70 ammo and brass that common. But is 450 ammo and brass easy to find. What is the cost different between the two.

[M-Tecs]

For me 45-70 all the way. Both of these post cover the why. If you check the Hodgdon site you will note that the 45-70 lever gun loads equal the 450 Marlin.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?77881-450-marlin

http://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/.450+Marlin.html

[oldred]

I do know the 450 Marlin is base on the 458 Mag case.


Well yes and no, it may have started out on the drawing board as a 458 mag but the design was modified and you can not easily make 450 cases from 458 magnum cases since the belt on the 450 is quite a bit wider.

[Duckiller]

45/70 killed a million or so buffalo. How many buffalo has the 450 Marlin killed?

[ole 5 hole group]

Availability of 450 brass is spotty. When you find it - stock up and never look back. The cost of Hornady brass is just under $1.00 a piece. It will last a long time. I have 8 loading on some brass and the primer pockets are still tight and the brass is good. I purchased 300 rounds of Hornady brass when I purchased my 450 Marlin and I think I'll have 200 unfired pieces when I pass, so the grandkids kids will still have plenty of brass!!!

Commercial or hot reloads just aren't much fun to plink with off the bench. As to performance, no difference if you reload but if purchasing commercial - there's no wimp loads for the 450 Marlin, as that cartridge can scare away elephants in any flower garden and can bring tears to a grown man's eyes.;-)

[big bore 99]

Lots more options with the 45-70.

[Artful]

Lots more options with the 45-70.
45-70 availability and options has it all over the 450.

One of the reasons I have not done an AR-15 big bore is that I'm waiting
for the battle over what survives to be one by a single cartridge
(458 SOCOM, 45 Bushmaster, whatever).

The 45-70 has already passed this test - the Jury is still out on the 450.

[Scharfschuetze]

I've never shot a 450 Marlin calibre rifle, but I've always considered it a solution to an already answered question. The non standard belted case killed off any reloading interest I had in it and as my 45/70s already do what it can do, its purchase along with the necessary dies and brass never made sense to me.

Perhaps its development was to prevent hot 45/70 (ie. Buffalo Bore) loads from getting shot in older rifles?

I think that in a hundred years from now (God willing) our great grand children will still be shooting 45/70s and the 450 Marlin will be a foot note in shooting history.

[osteodoc08]

45-70 loaded to modern lever pressures is every bit the equal of the 450 marlin. Components are easier to come by as far as brass and dies go. My vote is for the 45-70 unless you need or want something a "bit different"

[scaevola]

I found a great deal on a 2000 made Marlin .450 and since I didn't already have a 45-70 and components, I bought it. Dies weren't a big deal - found a set on gunbroker for $35 delivered. Brass isn't easy to find but I'm slowly acquiring some.

I only buy factory loads I find cheap at gun shows and enjoy shooting reloads. I pretty much only load full-power loads -- If I wanted to shoot lighter loads I wouldn't take the .450 out.

But, if I'd found a good deal on a 45-70 instead, I'd have bought that and been fine with it.

[pull the trigger]

All 450s are cross bolt safety. I dont buy cross bolt safety guns so I will never own one. Besides that brass is really scarce round here

[ole 5 hole group]

Nothing wrong with the 450 Marlin - could be looked at like the 500 JRH compared to the 500 WE. Major problem, if one thought it a problem, is purchasing a box of 350 grain FP that doesn't fly at warp speed (2,000 to 2,100 fps) and has a rather harsh recoil factor.

Now, for the rifle itself. I find stuffing those cartridges into a Marlin not to my liking, whether 45/70 or 450 Marlin. If I had to do it all over again (purchase a 45/70 or 450 Marlin) I would go with the Henry rifle with a tube feed.

If you want to take the discomfort, you can work that lever really fast and put all rounds on an 8" pie plate at 50 yards in short order - that should give a little comfort to those in need of such firepower at short range.

[NoAngel]

I cast and load for the Marlin. Never shot one. My best friend loves it.
Its easy to load for and performs very well but their decision to use a different dimensioned belt is a BIG turn off.
If they had made is with a standard belt, it would have the potential (I said potential) to kill the 45/70 to all but the purists. Being able to make it from all the belted magnums that litter the gunrange trash cans would have been too good to be true.

Alas, it is not to be. The 45/70 has more support and availability and were I to choose for myself, it would be the 45/70 simply because I KNOW that brass will alway be made. The .450? They could stop making that at any time and few would cry.

[snowwolfe]

I once bought a 450 Marlin then quickly realized it did nothing the 45-70 is capable of. I now own two 45-70's and sold the 450 Marlin.
Its not the 450 is a bad round, its just that the 45-70 is much more common and easier to find brass and ammo for if you buy factory ammo.

[TXGunNut]

450 Marlin solves a problem I don't have, probably never will. Creates too many problems, brass availability tops that list. Nothing wrong with the 45-70, no need to fix it.

[JesterGrin_1]

It all depends on ones point of view. I have used but never owned a 450 Marlin but have read some educated reviews of said cartridge of which was stated that they feed better than the 45-70 Government through the Marlin. Sorry to say I could not tell a real difference between the 450 Marlin feeding and the 45-70 Government in my JM Marlin 1895GS. I remember Ranch Dog wrote an article on the 450 Marlin ,Marlin 1895 and how much he liked how it fed the rounds.

I will say as others have the 450 Marlin is a propriety case design. So making brass for the 450 Marlin from something else will be no easy task. Plus the brass is not easy to find nor cheap once found. And due to the belt on the 450 Marlin case they may not last as long as the 45-70 Government brass will. But I can not prove this.

For the above reasons and probably many others that I am sure I missed I am happy that I shoot the 45-70 Government out of my JM Marlin 1895 GS to good effect and without regret. :). As a matter of fact it is probably one of the best rifle purchase decisions I have ever made.

[smkummer]

Its all been covered above. If your the person who likes something different, then you may be the person for a 450 marlin. I believe all of us here are reloaders so we didn't see the need. Just yesterday I was shooting my 1895 SS 45-70 (22" blued, half tube, cross bolt, pistol grip and ballard rifling with a flat point 350 Lyman bullet made for the 45/75). 14.6 grains unique and about 1300 FPS. Sighted in at 200 yards and so pleasant to shoot and cheap as heck to load. I love the configuration. I will try some marlin loads sometime but for now, I am really enjoying the light kicking target rounds. Yep, our great grandchildren will be able to find ammo and brass for a 45-70.

[Doc Highwall]

The 450 Marlin has only one advantage over the 45-70, and that is that the factory ammunition is already loaded to high pressures and velocities for non re-loaders giving them a powerful lever gun. Now I know that Garret loads heavy loads but they are not carried in every store that sells ammunition and the factory 450 Marlin will be much more available.

The disadvantage of the 450 Marlin is that it is a lever action cartridge foremost and the 45-70 is available in single shot rifles, double rifles, bolt action rifles, and lever action rifles. The 45-70 is even available in hand guns like a Contender and revolvers like the Century Arms or BFR, and I am sure I missed another type of action as well.

[NoAngel]

While not for everyone, this is one thing the Marlin round can do the 45/70 cannot.

***Scroll down about 3/4 of the way down.***

http://www.ar-10-rifles.com/index.php

[W.R.Buchanan]

As Doc stated above the .450 Marlin cartridge is generally loaded pretty hot as compared to .45-70 factory ammo. (Not Garrett or Buffalo Bore)

The whole purpose of the cartridge was to be able to have high power factory ammo that couldn't find it's way into a Trapdoor or other weaker rifle.

No mainstream .45-70 ammo is loaded above acceptable Trapdoor pressures. Thus the intention was to idiot proof the round and the gun and provide a gun that exceeded factory .45-70 performance.

Ammo and Firearms Companies are not only in business to cater to knowledgeable shooters, they have a responsibility to protect the morons as well.

Thus the .450 Marlin Cartridge.

Randy

[6pt-sika]

First Marlin I ever purchased was in 2000 was a Marlin 1895M in 450 Marlin , the second I purchased very shortly there after was a 1895CB in 45-70 .

Over the course of time I've owned three Marlin's chambered for the 450 and eight for the 45-70 .

When one handloads for either of these cartridges in a post 1972 Marlin 1895 they can be pretty much loaded the same .

The 450 feeds in the loading port just a touch better then the 45-70 and 45-70 brass is easier to find .

If you handload it's kinda six of one and half a dozen of the other .

I like them both although I own neither any longer .

[Geezer in NH]

45-70 The 450 marlin was made for folks who cannot walk, chew gum or reload.

[rosewood]

45-70 availability and options has it all over the 450.

One of the reasons I have not done an AR-15 big bore is that I'm waiting
for the battle over what survives to be one by a single cartridge
(458 SOCOM, 45 Bushmaster, whatever).



Yep, I have considered a large bore AR also, even throw in the .50 beowulf also. But which one will make it? I don't want to be 10-20 years down the road and can't find brass for it. Saw that link someone else posted with the .450 Marlin in the AR-10 platform. That may be a bit more than I care for though.

45-70 brass has been available since 1873.

What Marlin should have done was make the 450 Marlin a lenghtened 45-70. Stretch the case about 1/8" so you could shoot either or in it but it wouldn't chamber in a weaker 45-70 design. Then they would have had something.

[6pt-sika]

Yep, I have considered a large bore AR also, even throw in the .50 beowulf also. But which one will make it? I don't want to be 10-20 years down the road and can't find brass for it. Saw that link someone else posted with the .450 Marlin in the AR-10 platform. That may be a bit more than I care for though.

45-70 brass has been available since 1873.

What Marlin should have done was make the 450 Marlin a lenghtened 45-70. Stretch the case about 1/8" so you could shoot either or in it but it wouldn't chamber in a weaker 45-70 design. Then they would have had something.


If you're committed to a cartridge like the 50 BW or whatever and you think the possibility for lack of long term availability is there you prepare for it when you decide you like the cartridge and buy brass in excess so that's a moot point .

As to the longer 45-70 they made that awhile back they call it the 45-90 .

[thx997303]

I've been happy with my 1895G in 45-70 since I bought it in about 2009. Load it with 350 great boolits, and between 1200 and 1700 fps. Could load faster, but don't see the need.

Ran a group buy on brass for it a while back, (that was plagued with problems, no thanks to starline) and the brass was fairly priced. That same brass has been loaded over and over without a single case being worn out.

The 450 marlin wouldn't do anything the 45-70 cant, and will be more expensive to load for thanks to the brass.

45-70 is my choice in that question.

[rosewood]

If you're committed to a cartridge like the 50 BW or whatever and you think the possibility for lack of long term availability is there you prepare for it when you decide you like the cartridge and buy brass in excess so that's a moot point .

As to the longer 45-70 they made that awhile back they call it the 45-90 .

I guess that wouldn't have worked then cause it could be dropped in an older weaker gun. Oh well. That may be why they went to a proprietary case. Dang lawyers....

[NoAngel]

45-70 The 450 marlin was made for folks who cannot walk, chew gum or reload.


You can say that about a lot of cartridges (depending on your point of view), especially wildcats. ....especially a few I've seen around here.

[rhouser]

I love my marlin 45-70 SS GG. I imagine the 450M would be as good. I guess I am an old man now, because, I just don't know that I could handle more powder (recoil). Maybe in a heavier gun. Each to his own. I am just fine with the 45-70.

My 2 cents. rch

[6pt-sika]

I love my marlin 45-70 SS GG. I imagine the 450M would be as good. I guess I am an old man now, because, I just don't know that I could handle more powder (recoil). Maybe in a heavier gun. Each to his own. I am just fine with the 45-70.

My 2 cents. rch

If you can handle what your 45-70 dishes out when you have full hunting loads then you can handle the 450 Marlin . While I never went up to the 550 grain cast bullets in the 450 as I have in the 45-70 I am of the opinion a handloader can do with one whatever it did with the other .

[Clay M]

The .45/70..
If you handload then there is no reason to have the .450 Marlin.
Also where are you going to get brass for any oddball caliber right now?

[bouncer50]

The .45/70..
If you handload then there is no reason to have the .450 Marlin.
Also where are you going to get brass for any oddball caliber right now? Good answer , Why buy brass and reloading dies for a oddball. Like the 45 gap round and a few others

[Clay M]

I am afraid that cartridges like the .450 Marlin are a solution for a non existent problem..

[NoAngel]

I am afraid that cartridges like the .450 Marlin are a solution for a non existent problem..


I wouldnt go that far. Bullet weight being equal, the Marlin beats out just about any factory loaded 45/70 unless you buy Buffalo Bore and who the heck wants to pay that??? It's hard for us remember sometimes; not everyone who shoots and hunts is a Handloader.

[Clay M]

Paper ballistic are a good selling point ,but are often deceiving.
I have never felt under gunned with any .45/70 load including black powder and I have been hunting with the cartridge since 71.
I bought my Shiloh Sharps Saddle rifle in .45/70 to use for hunting anything in North America with black powder..
I am confident it will do the job..I wouldn't say that about just any round , but the .45/70 has a long proven track record..
I think Marlin was trying to reinvent the .45/70 with the .450 Marlin..
To give it some kind of new life as if it needs to be resurrected from the grave..
A lot of new cartridges out there I feel are unnecessary , but to each his own..

[utahtrapper]

I have a 450MXLR very very smooth lever gun and extremely accurate. But yes ballistics and I do reload no real difference.
I do like the idea of nearing the 45/90 then we could have used the 45/70 as a 44 special.

[BAGTIC]

45-70 brass is good for the same pressures as standard calibers like the. .270, .308, etc. A Marlin action will give out long before the case does. Even in a strong bolt action or single shot of similar weight you will give out before the case does. The .450 belt adds nothing to case strength. It was designed to provide a proprietary case for a limited market. They could just as easily designed a .45-70 derived case with a slight shoulder just enough so it would not chamber in a standard 45-70 chamber ( .45-70 Improved?). That would have made it possible to use 45-70 cartridges in emergency but where would have been the profit in that approach. Or they could simply have introduced a high pressure 45-70 loading with a new name as in .38 Auto/.38Super.

Follow the money.

[BAGTIC]

In this age of smokeless the 45-90 case doesn't have any advantage over the 45-70. When loaded to the same COL they both have the same case capacity. The advantage actually goes to the 45-70 because the shorter case makes it possible to use bullets with longer more efficient ogives.

[BAGTIC]

More important is their responsibility to protect the company

[drinks]

There is no Marlin co.
It was sold down the river to the great big gun group.

:x

[brassrat]

George Soros is now doing your Marlin gunsmithing..:D

[MT Chambers]

The 45/70 has more case capacity and could be loaded heavier then the .450 or in other words: when loaded to the same velocity, the 45/70 will have lower pressure. These types of loads would be for Rugers and not Marlin '95s.

[JimP.]

my 45-70's are 1973 Springfield rifles, one is the Infantry model with a 32 inch barrel, the other is a SRC with a 22 inch barrel. So all my 45-70 loads are trapdoor loads. My 450 Marlin is a NEF Handi rifle. I load it with 500 gr bullets and max loads of RL-7. So the 450 Marlin is my thumper rifle.

[44man]

While not for everyone, this is one thing the Marlin round can do the 45/70 cannot.

***Scroll down about 3/4 of the way down.***

http://www.ar-10-rifles.com/index.php
$2400, i don't think so! $800 is too much for a marlin too.
How about 5 shots from a BFR 45-70 at 100 yards.141686 The hole in the top is five from my revolver at 100. About 3/4". The 45-70 has no flies on it.

[Geezer in NH]

You can say that about a lot of cartridges (depending on your point of view), especially wildcats. ....especially a few I've seen around here.Marlin made it so non-reloader's could get results that reloader's did by using heavier loads than SAMMI allows.

[utahtrapper]

I would agree it kept some non reloaders in the big bore game