Pleasant Grove home invasion fatal for male intruder

[Uncle Jimbo]

What the Hell. Utah is going to hell in a hand basket.
First Orem and now Pleasant Grove.
Happy Valley will never be the same.:shock:

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=34497236&nid=148&title=pleasant-grove-home-invasion-fatal-for-male-intruder&s_cid=queue-7

PLEASANT GROVE — A homeowner shot and killed a man trying to break into his house Sunday morning, police said.
Officers responded to a report of a home invasion in the area of 1700 West and 60 South at 5:42 a.m. where they found Christian Chichia, 24, had been shot, according to Pleasant Grove police Lt. Britt Smith. He died after being taken to Utah Valley Regional Medical Center.
A preliminary investigation shows Chichia began pounding on the front door of the house, awakening and alarming the homeowners, Britt said. After he couldn't get in the front door, he climbed to a second-story balcony and tried to get in a door.
Britt said the homeowner armed himself and went to the balcony door. He unlocked the door to talk to the man.
"Once the door was unlocked Chichia attempted to force his way into the residence, and was shot by the homeowner," he said.
Police did not release the name of the homeowner and the incident remains under investigation.

[runfiverun]

Utah is about thisclose to voting democrat.
I seen all this coming and bailed years ago.
glad I did too I couldn't stand all the Californians trying to make the place just like home.

[leftiye]

I'm so used to everyone here (Utah) always trying to be "real people" - curry acceptance that is (they've got a persecution complex ya know), that I won't even start to even think about arguing with you. This even though it seems to be a national passtime to inflate one's ownself even to the point of bragging.

[osteodoc08]

Why would he unlock the door after this guy is already showing signs of aggression? Should have called police and left door/balcony locked. He did what he had to do to protect his family but not in the most logical way. I know, easy to Monday quarterback, but this may be a sticking point for him.

[w5pv]

I am glad he took him out of the gene pool and look at the money he saved the state.

[fatnhappy]

Happy Valley will never be the same.:shock:

Oh I don't know. It seems like they have a community improvement plan in place.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Why would he unlock the door after this guy is already showing signs of aggression? Should have called police and left door/balcony locked. He did what he had to do to protect his family but not in the most logical way. I know, easy to Monday quarterback, but this may be a sticking point for him.

The deceased being armed would be an odd thing to omit mentioning, if he was. On balance I think forcing his way into an opened balcony door, not visibly but perhaps actually armed, may well be legal justification for shooting him. But it would have been a bit surer if he had let him force the door first, or start shooting at an occupier invisible in the darkness inside.

We haven't heard a thing about motive, but it sounds very much like they were previous interpersonal dealings, aggravated by alcohol or other chemicals. It was, after all, the small hours of Sunday morning, and an unarmed home invasion burglary of a stranger, beginning by pounding on his door, seems an excessively idiosyncratic thing to do. The householder could have been an abortion doctor, his wife's lover, his own ex-lover, someone who hadn't paid him for work, a manager who had sacked him or the ATF official investigating his case. A wounded invader, or the deceased's relatives, might well argue that he was invited in to stop waking up even more neighbors.

None of these things are really excuses. They may not even mean that the householder didn't incur, perhaps foolishly, the degree of fear which justifies shooting. But there is every chance that he could have got out of doing so. I can see no very firm evidence that anyone being a Democrat came into it.

[blixen01]

A better report answers some questions--
A Pleasant Grove man shot and killed a man who allegedly was trying to break into his home Sunday.

Police identified the deceased as Christian Chichia, 24, who lived in the same neighborhood as the homeowner. Investigators have not been able to determine what Chichia's intentions or motive were, said Pleasant Grove Police Lt. Britt Smith.

About 5:40 a.m. Sunday, Chichia was pounding on the front door of the house, near 1700 W. 60 South, which woke up the homeowner and his wife, according to the preliminary investigation, Smith said. The homeowner retrieved a handgun and went to the front door, only to find that Chichia had moved up to his second-story balcony.

The homeowner went to the balcony door and cracked it open to find out what Chichia wanted and Chichia allegedly tried to force his way into the home, Smith said.

The homeowner fired once, striking Chichia in the chest. He was taken to Utah Valley Regional Medical Center, where he later died.

The case will be screened by the Utah County Attorney's Office to determine whether criminal charges should be filed, Smith said.

Chichia had been living in the neighborhood only a short time, and police do not believe he and the homeowner knew each other, Smith added.

BTW, Pleasant Grove is a helluva town:
A methamphetamine-addicted Utah mother pleaded guilty Thursday to murdering six of her newborn babies over a decade and storing their remains in the garage.

[snuffy]

Does Utah have the castle doctrine? If so, it's a slam dunk, he was on his property without permission, while being aggressive towards the occupants. He blasted the bastage, end of story.

Thanks to our wonderful governor, Wisconsin now has the castle doctrine. In those circumstances there would be no question about "charges" for the homeowner.

[DougGuy]

I have nothing but praise for the "castle doctrine" as it allows one the fullest amount of wherewithal to apply one's freedom to protect one's family and property.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

If no traceable connection with the deceased can be made, it is a big point in his favor, as no provocation or excuse for harassment could be proven. But hammering on the front door makes the attempted breakin story a bit thin, unless he was hammering with the wrong kind of hammer.

A lot of what has been said, although very likely true, depends on the householder's word. If the castle theory didn't require some element of proof that a man wasn't invited to a surprise farewell party, wouldn't quite a few people be doing it?



It would be a good thing if the noise attracted witnesses to confirm that his entry was, although not quite a breakin, forcible. Something in his bloodstream that erodes judgement would be good too, as this corpse was hardly displaying a competent burglar's judgement.

[starmac]

No mention of the intruder being a thug in the article. there is no way to know what his thoughts were, but it could be he was drunk or high and thought he was trying to get in his own house. It wouldn't be the first time.
It just doesn't sound like a normal home invasion, not saying the home owner is not justified, but I wouldn't be suprized to find out either his wife or him knew him, or had some sort of dealings with him.

[MtGun44]

Occasionally a drunk gets the wrong house and gets angry that "his wife won't let him in",
and gets crazier and crazier, trying to kick in "his door" and break into "his house". When it
is NOT his house, that is really serious.

If the happens, the poor home owner has no way of knowing what the heck is going on and
at some point, shooting becomes a viable response.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I have collected old pocket watches, and it is true what Sherlock Holmes said, that you can recognize a reformed drunkard because the keyhole is still surrounded by tiny scratches. Keyupad entry systems cover up for a lot.

But that is one of endless possible scenarios, and of course the inebriate finding a man in an upstairs room could well be dangerous... if he is dangerous. But I still think the householder would be on a lot safer ground if he had witnesses to threats or some kind of weapon or entry tool was found on the corpse.

[starmac]

Most times, a guy doesn't need witnesses in his own home, even if it was a drunk thinking it was his own home.
Drunk or not, telling them to leave is sufficient in a lot of states.

[Hamish]

2 things:

1. This needs to go to the Pit

2. The *non* American(s) commenting in this thread obviously just don't get it and never will. Which is too bad, because it's pretty simple really. Lays hands on me or trespass into my home and you should expect bodily harm, up to, and possibly including, your life.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

The pit! Well is it named. I don't see any reason for this thread to be there, unless someone wants to send it there. I, for example, value your opinion every bit as much as you value mine. But when it comes to shootings in the home, having a tiny fraction of the number of shootings in the home does not sound entirely irrelevant.

[leftiye]

It could be (I'm guessing) a sliding scale. Fewer trespassers shot, more homeowners stabbed to death?

[Ballistics in Scotland]

It could be (I'm guessing) a sliding scale. Fewer trespassers shot, more homeowners stabbed to death?

So you are. There may be the occasional burglary gone wrong, when they mistakenly thought the house unoccupied. Criminals and hoodlums may pay one another domiciliary visits. Somewhere about 1970 a fellow-student of mine was a witness in a trial, when muggers to whom he gave his money killed the next man for refusing. Otherwise I've never even met anyone who witnessed (or nearly witnessed) armed violence. Even bank robberies have fallen off greatly, due to architectural and procedural security.

There is very little difficulty for criminals to obtain guns, since customs barriers to the former East Germany and Baltic Republics have been dismantled, but they seem confined strictly to gang feuds. This person seems to have got away with it for a while too:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/oct/05/steven-greenoe-gun-smuggling-trial

I dare say more ordinary people die from accidentally ingesting live fish, than from premeditated violent attacks in their homes. The main influence on criminal use of guns, as everywhere else, is how much criminals want to use guns.

[Artful]

No mention of the intruder being a thug in the article. there is no way to know what his thoughts were, but it could be he was drunk or high and thought he was trying to get in his own house. It wouldn't be the first time.
It just doesn't sound like a normal home invasion, not saying the home owner is not justified, but I wouldn't be suprized to find out either his wife or him knew him, or had some sort of dealings with him.

well looks like he liked to speed and party...
http://arrestlistings.com/utah/utah-county/misdemeanors/christian-chichia/poss-1-oz-marijuana-spice
Full Name: Christian Hiram Chichia
Charge date: 03/27/2015
Address: S Willow Circle Loop
City: Lehi
State: Utah
Zip Code: 84043
Date of Birth: 11/30/1990
Race:

Charging County: Utah County, Utah
Case Number:
Charge: Speeding 95 In A 90 Class C Misdemeanor
Statute: 41-6A-601
Type: M
Charge: Use Or Possession Of Drug
Statute: 58-37A-5(1)
Type: M
Charge: Poss <1 Oz Marijuana, Spice,
Statute: 58-37-8(2)(D)
Type: M
Charge: Driving Under The Influence Of
Statute: 41-6A-502
Type: M

[mold maker]

The dead mans motive is irrelevant. If the invader pressed for entry, to a second story door, after beating on the normal front lower entry, he was up to no good, and the owner had good reason to fear.
I'm 73, and answer any late night knock, with a loaded gun, in my right hand, behind me. I'm to old to fight, and can't run, but will still do what ever, to protect my family.
The castle doctrine was written to allow folks like me, to peaceably live my remaining years, in the safety, of my home. If you decide to invade my castle, expect to need lots of help when leaving.
In this instance there is no one to dispute the owners account, of exactly what happened, but his explanation, is good enough for me.
Tax payers were spared an expensive trial. The home owner is safe to live another day. The invader won't become a second offender, and there wont be another victim.
End of story.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Another householder whose burglar thinks he really needs to shoot first, isn't a victim?

Norway, I was surprised to find, has a very high rate of intentional homicide, more than a third of the US. No other country which wasn't in the former Soviet Union or Yugoslavia, nor lots which were, has more than a third of the US rate. Neither does Canada, across whose frontier only the law-abiding can be kept from smuggling. That includes many countries with far worse trauma care services to turn events into non-homicide. If a man need present no evidence to kill in his own home, that could be distorting the statistics as well.

Nowhere have I spoken against the householder in this case, who may have been acting in genuine fear of attack. Nor the castle doctrine either, against an intruder there is genuine reason to consider dangerous, and he has to receive some allowance for panic. But a lot may depend on evidence, such as what people heard the deceased shouting, what was in his possession or what is found in his bloodstream.

I do think the greater willingness of American criminals to kill, owes a lot to their awareness of American non-criminals' to kill. Each aggravates the other. I can't really believe there is any fallacy there that it takes being American to see.

[blixen]

Here's an update, no surprises. Demon rum and stupidity.

PLEASANT GROVE, Utah – A homeowner in Pleasant Grove shot and killed a man who allegedly tried to force his way into a residence early Sunday morning, and police said one of the working theories in the case is that the man may have been intoxicated and confused about which townhome in a larger complex he was trying to enter. ….


Lt. Britt Smith, Pleasant Grove Police Department, said one of their working theories was that Chichia might have been intoxicated and thought he was trying to get into the residence he shared with several roommates.
“So according to witness reports, we suspect that alcohol was definitely a factor this morning,” Smith said.
Smith said Chichia was taken to Utah Valley Regional Medical Center with a gunshot wound to the chest from a .40-caliber handgun, and “Life-saving measures were taken, but ultimately he did die from his wounds.”
Smith said the homeowner and Chichia lived in the same complex of townhomes but they don’t believe the two knew each other prior to Sunday’s encounter.

I edited it for brevity--full report here:http://fox13now.com/2015/05/03/man-shoots-kills-alleged-home-invader-in-pleasant-grove/

[DoubleAdobe]

95 in a 90? Can that be right, crikey!

[starmac]

95 in a 90? Can that be right, crikey!

He he I doubt it, I have been all over the country and Cali too, and never seen any 90 mph speed limits. The highest I know of is Texas and 80 mph.

[David2011]

He he I doubt it, I have been all over the country and Cali too, and never seen any 90 mph speed limits. The highest I know of is Texas and 80 mph.

There's a toll road between Austin and San Antonio with a speed limit of 85 mph (112 kph).

David

[tryNto]

We have a few sections of I-15 that are posted 80 mph.

And there is no way I would have opened that door, But I would have the gun at hand till the Police/Sheriff's Deputes showed up.

[Whiterabbit]

Norway, I was surprised to find, has a very high rate of intentional homicide, more than a third of the US. No other country which wasn't in the former Soviet Union or Yugoslavia, nor lots which were, has more than a third of the US rate. .

This statistic requires significant clarification to have any credence.

[Multigunner]

The manner in which homicides are reported has a lot to do with discrepancies in crime statistics.

In the UK a death is not reported as a homicide unless the police file charges against someone for murder and even then its only after disposition of the case that the death is listed in national statictics as a homicide.

In Mexico they appear to exempt cartel murders from the stastics altogether. In many third world countries crimes of all kinds are never reported and bodies are never found, or if found no investigation is made.
In some countries hundreds of thousands end up in mass graves and these deaths are never listed a crimes unless as war crimes.

In old Europe they seem to prefer to go on mass killing sprees two or three times every century, tens of millions of deaths slaking their blood lust for decades at a time.

In some countries rather than killing some one they prefer horrific mutilations. A horribly mutilated victim is an object lesson, don't get the local gangs PO'ed, just pay that protection money on time.

[Whiterabbit]

well, sounds like the "highest international intentional homicide rate" being 30% of the US really DOES support the conclusion that "Americans have a greater willingness to kill".

=\

[RogerDat]

Alcohol is a "working theory" which is not the same as a fact. For those that assume pot = reefer madness need to do some research. Caught with < 1 oz. pot is about like having a case of beer in the car. Driving while under the influence is serious but hardly the basis for determining that capital punishment was warranted in an entirely unrelated matter. There was a case not that many years ago in Ann Arbor where a student entered the wrong house and was killed.

Sounds like the other part of the "working theory" is that the guy thought this was the house he shared with others and he should be able to enter once the door was unlocked. My feeling is why would I unlock the door to what seemed like an intruder or person whom I do not want to be in my home in the middle of the night? No reason to do so. Door stays shut and locked. I call police and talk to the nice dispatch officer from my side of the door. Intruder being on his side of the door is not a threat. Intruder also happens to be the side the police are going to show up on. The phone might be in the left hand for this in case there was a forced entry but until the person attempts to force entry how am I in any danger?

In this country most states count all deaths by violence at the hands of another as homicide for statistical purposes. We do not differentiate between justifiable homicide and murder for those statistics. Escaped rapist shot in the middle of a gun battle with police outside the bank he just robbed is a homicide. Same as we count the dead bank teller just shot by the rapist turned robber. Not all states use this way of counting homicides they report to the FBI for crime statistics but most do.

Greater willingness to kill or just better at it when push comes to shove? One is an attitude or threshold, the other is shall we say a skill set.

[MtGun44]

Sounds like my supposition was on the mark.

[birddog]

Well let me think on this for a moment, alright I've thought long enough and I would have shot the SOB too!!
Charlie

[MUSTANG]

I was in the same circumstances as the Utah homeowner in 1985 living in Fredricksburg Va. About 0130 a loud obnoxious drunk began beating on the front door and yelling, we ignored it until he began to try forcing the door by ramming it with his shoulder trying to knock it down. That's when I unlocked and opened the door, followed by a hammer back .357 pointed at the drunks face. He sobered up pretty rapidly and said "You ain't Joe". I replied no, Joe doesn't live here and neither do you, at which time he beat a hasty retreat (as best a drunk can).

I believe that one should avoid pulling the trigger if at all possible, but be prepared to do so, and feel no grief if there is no choice. I am confident there are far more cases never reported of people defending their homes and families than those where shots are fired.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I was in the same circumstances as the Utah homeowner in 1985 living in Fredricksburg Va. About 0130 a loud obnoxious drunk began beating on the front door and yelling, we ignored it until he began to try forcing the door by ramming it with his shoulder trying to knock it down. That's when I unlocked and opened the door, followed by a hammer back .357 pointed at the drunks face. He sobered up pretty rapidly and said "You ain't Joe". I replied no, Joe doesn't live here and neither do you, at which time he beat a hasty retreat (as best a drunk can).

I believe that one should avoid pulling the trigger if at all possible, but be prepared to do so, and feel no grief if there is no choice. I am confident there are far more cases never reported of people defending their homes and families than those where shots are fired.


Exactly. A bit of allowance really should be made for an alarmed and perhaps newly woken up householder acting differently from what his answer would be in a law enforcement examination. But we shouldn't delude ourselves that he was panicking for honour and justice. The circumstances - living in the same housing area and some far from unusual degree of acquaintance with drugs and untimely refreshment, appear to be moving things a bit the householder's way. But he and his must be praying for the right results from the blood analysis, or neighbours having heard the right things. If he talked publicly about his action the way some of his fan club do on the internet, he would deserve to have his head examined, and quite possibly get it.



Attempts to quibble figures which are indisputably the highest in the developed world just show how convincing the figures are. The examples I quoted do not have secret mass graves and collect intentional homicide figures on the basis of whether someone was intentionally killed. Many are like the UK, where the criterion of a coroner's inquest, held on any death of unusual or indeterminate cause, hands down a verdict of "unlawful killing"(murder if that is clear) "by person or persons unknown." France sends in an examining magistrate in the early stages of an inquiry, who has no vested interest in conviction, non-prosecution or proving police excesses.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

[QUOTE=RogerDat;3241581] We do not differentiate between justifiable homicide and murder for those statistics. Escaped rapist shot in the middle of a gun battle with police outside the bank he just robbed is a homicide. Same as we count the dead bank teller just shot by the rapist turned robber. QUOTE]


I agree with what you say about slightly illegal alcohol and marijuana use not making a homicidal maniac. But for the rest of the above, how many fewer cases of deadly violence per homicide do your examples make?

[woodbutcher]

Back in the mid `60`s one of our neighbors had some idiot kick in his front door.SERIOUS mistake of the first water.Home owner was a Marine veteran of the Pacific campaigns.Grabbed the first thing that came to hand,which was a 6.6 Arisaka with the pig sticker attached.One of his bring backs.Lets just sat the door kicker got the point.Hehehe.
Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
Leo

[OeldeWolf]

A friend if mine moved to the Netherlands to marry a Dutch man. He and I had a discussion of the question of if the USA actually had higher rates if gun violence than that of disarmed Europe. We took the FBI statistics for a given year, and the Interpol (I think it was) figures, and then started adding countries up to get them to the same general population figures as the USA. Europe was actually a bit AHEAD of the USA in gun deaths. We did not do the same with total murder rates, as he admitted that the Europeans were more likely to stab or bash that shoot (lack of guns?), and would likely have higher numbers than the USA.

What no European I have talked to has ever realized (without actually touring the country), is the sheer SIZE of the USA and its population. We are apparently less inherently violent that Europe. But the fact is, that they are thinking country and thinking of their own when they hear our news mongers. And instead they should be thinking of the EU when they hear the reports. Their mistake is quite natural, and is played upon ruthlessly by the media, and the international gun haters.

[robg]

if you act outside the law the law should not protect you.he tried to break in hes dead one less criminal isn't that a good thing

[Ballistics in Scotland]

A friend if mine moved to the Netherlands to marry a Dutch man. He and I had a discussion of the question of if the USA actually had higher rates if gun violence than that of disarmed Europe. We took the FBI statistics for a given year, and the Interpol (I think it was) figures, and then started adding countries up to get them to the same general population figures as the USA. Europe was actually a bit AHEAD of the USA in gun deaths. We did not do the same with total murder rates, as he admitted that the Europeans were more likely to stab or bash that shoot (lack of guns?), and would likely have higher numbers than the USA.

What no European I have talked to has ever realized (without actually touring the country), is the sheer SIZE of the USA and its population. We are apparently less inherently violent that Europe. But the fact is, that they are thinking country and thinking of their own when they hear our news mongers. And instead they should be thinking of the EU when they hear the reports. Their mistake is quite natural, and is played upon ruthlessly by the media, and the international gun haters.

The United Nations figures I quoted were adjusted to numbers per hundred thousand. If the United States has 4.7 intentional homicides per 100,000, while the Netherlands has 0.9 with a higher proportion of stabbings but more gun deaths, it must be a statistical technique worth hearing about in detail. I don't think we will, though.

Why should thinking about the EU be better than thinking about, in my words, every European country that wasn't a member of the former Soviet Union or Yugoslavia, and many that were? Here is the source again, for anyone who isn't too interested to be interested.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

[Ballistics in Scotland]

if you act outside the law the law should not protect you.he tried to break in hes dead one less criminal isn't that a good thing

It certainly is if he is a criminal who can be expected to use dangerous violence on someone. It's murder if he is known not to be. If he comes into someone's house where the householder can't know or can't be expected to meticulously calculate the chances, it is an unfortunate incident. If he is just trying to break in, you would be better off going for your camera.

Much was made in the UK about the case of Tony Martin, who was jailed for killing a burglar, but he was the exception which proves the rule. He seems to have cut away the stairs of his house, because he was so afraid of burglars, and provided himself with at least two illegal guns after being deprived of his licences when he shot a man's car some time before. He claimed to have shot the man from upstairs, but forensic evidence showed that he fired from close range downstairs. He refused his lawyer's suggestion of a plea of mental illness (which would have been pretty convincing) and served three months in jail - the same, by coincidence, as the sentence on the surviving but perforated burglar.

I expect he thought one less criminal was a good thing.

[458mag]

2 things:

1. This needs to go to the Pit

2. The *non* American(s) commenting in this thread obviously just don't get it and never will. Which is too bad, because it's pretty simple really. Lays hands on me or trespass into my home and you should expect bodily harm, up to, and possibly including, your life. Yep, and due to the ammunition shortage, No warning shot will be fired!!

[458mag]

It certainly is if he is a criminal who can be expected to use dangerous violence on someone. It's murder if he is known not to be. If he comes into someone's house where the householder can't know or can't be expected to meticulously calculate the chances, it is an unfortunate incident. If he is just trying to break in, you would be better off going for your camera.

Much was made in the UK about the case of Tony Martin, who was jailed for killing a burglar, but he was the exception which proves the rule. He seems to have cut away the stairs of his house, because he was so afraid of burglars, and provided himself with at least two illegal guns after being deprived of his licences when he shot a man's car some time before. He claimed to have shot the man from upstairs, but forensic evidence showed that he fired from close range downstairs. He refused his lawyer's suggestion of a plea of mental illness (which would have been pretty convincing) and served three months in jail - the same, by coincidence, as the sentence on the surviving but perforated burglar.

I expect he thought one less criminal was a good thing.No one seems to have the right to defend themselves or family across the pond. Rest assured, if it were me, when the authorities showed up, the burgler would be armed to the teeth with my axe or the biggest butcher knife from my kitchen.

[TXGunNut]

There's a toll road between Austin and San Antonio with a speed limit of 85 mph (112 kph).

David


Yep, drive it on the way to my brother's hunting lease in my 97 Ford 4X4. Lots easier since I rebuilt the front end and put new tires on her, lol.
Watch out for hogs and pavement buckles on the south end.
Last article certainly sheds some light on the situation but that info wasn't available to the resident at the time when he needed to make his decision. He made the right call, the intruder made a bad one. Sometimes being drunk, stupid and aggressive is fatal.

[TXGunNut]

No one seems to have the right to defend themselves or family across the pond. Rest assured, if it were me, when the authorities showed up, the burgler would be armed to the teeth with my axe or the biggest butcher knife from my kitchen.


Bad idea. Crime scene investigators will likely catch you in this lie and then everything you say or said will be suspect. Folks in LE get lied to on a regular basis. They learn to recognize it easily and for most it is quite offensive.

[458mag]

Bad idea. Crime scene investigators will likely catch you in this lie and then everything you say or said will be suspect. Folks in LE get lied to on a regular basis. They learn to recognize it easily and for most it is quite offensive.If some low life breaks into my Castle with ill intent I will happily be tried by 12 than carried by 6.

[dualsport]

Utah is about thisclose to voting democrat.
I seen all this coming and bailed years ago.
glad I did too I couldn't stand all the Californians trying to make the place just like home.
Probably both the shooter and dead guy are former Californians. We all know they cause all the trouble. Not like the nice people where you live, who would never act like that. No wonder all the Californians want to move to your paradise. My guess is the homeowner wishes to God this never happened and most likely deeply regrets firing his gun.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

No one seems to have the right to defend themselves or family across the pond. Rest assured, if it were me, when the authorities showed up, the burgler would be armed to the teeth with my axe or the biggest butcher knife from my kitchen.

Of course statistics are in short supply when burglary of an occupied house is such a rarity, but both the Government and the Crown Prosecution Service have indicated that armed self-defence in the home is pretty safe, as long as it offers the usual chance of actually being defence against something.

While it is hard to ask a man to go against his instincts, it is true that both law enforcement and courts develop a fine instinct for lie detection, and are liable to be more skeptical about anything else you say. Tony Martin got paid £125,000 for his story by a newspaper, and they don't pay that much for "I will never forgive myself, but I had to." How much do you think it would take to make the deceased's family remember that he had been invited to visit a man who owed him money?

How do you plan to avoid getting your DNA in his pockets when you check if he brought a weapon of his own along?

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Probably both the shooter and dead guy are former Californians. We all know they cause all the trouble. Not like the nice people where you live, who would never act like that. No wonder all the Californians want to move to your paradise. My guess is the homeowner wishes to God this never happened and most likely deeply regrets firing his gun.

I can think of several sorts of person who would feel that way. Unless there was a previous background to the dispute, I can't see what was wrong with standing at the back of a dark room to see if he would try to break in.

[458mag]

joe biden says just run out on your back porch and let loose with your shotgun.

[starmac]

It certainly is if he is a criminal who can be expected to use dangerous violence on someone. It's murder if he is known not to be. If he comes into someone's house where the householder can't know or can't be expected to meticulously calculate the chances, it is an unfortunate incident. If he is just trying to break in, you would be better off going for your camera.

If a guy is breaking in, he is a criminal in the eyes of the law and pretty much everybody else.
Not sure what you mean by it is murder if he is known not to be a criminal, exactly how is one not to know anybody is not a criminal, especially if that someone has done climbed up on your balcony and is beating the door down??
And, grab your camera, what kind of thinking is that??????

From the info given, it was a justified shooting. The shooter probably feels worse than bad, and will have to live with it the rest of his life. I do not know if I would have shot or not, wasn't there, but I do not have had to been there to be able to say that I would not have had a camera in my hand.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

It certainly is if he is a criminal who can be expected to use dangerous violence on someone. It's murder if he is known not to be. If he comes into someone's house where the householder can't know or can't be expected to meticulously calculate the chances, it is an unfortunate incident. If he is just trying to break in, you would be better off going for your camera.

If a guy is breaking in, he is a criminal in the eyes of the law and pretty much everybody else.
Not sure what you mean by it is murder if he is known not to be a criminal, exactly how is one not to know anybody is not a criminal, especially if that someone has done climbed up on your balcony and is beating the door down??
And, grab your camera, what kind of thinking is that??????

From the info given, it was a justified shooting. The shooter probably feels worse than bad, and will have to live with it the rest of his life. I do not know if I would have shot or not, wasn't there, but I do not have had to been there to be able to say that I would not have had a camera in my hand.

I think my words, quoted without benefit of the quote utiiity, will bear the interpretation that it is murder if he is known not to be "a criminal who can be expected to use dangerous violence on someone." Previous acquaintance between the protagonists might cast very strong doubt on that defence. If they were totally unknown to one another, there wouid surely be a strong tendency to assume the householder either right or within a reasonable degree of error. A record of saying "I wish a burglar would try my house" might undo that.

Opening the door is the thing that most needs explaining away, and a lot depends on architecture which we don't know about. Maybe neighbours or toolmarks will support a claim that he was working on another balcony door, which led to a wife's or children's room. Maybe the door was double glazed and at an angle to the sight picture, which will often deflect a bullet. "Often" could be an argumet for opening that door for a shot without glass, before the interloper could try a shot with. The possibilities are endless.

[mold maker]

Come on guys. We can arm chair quarterback this to death, without a conclusion.
If the homeowner opened the door for whatever reason, he didn't shoot through an unopened door. He didn't shoot a non aggressive intruder. He had ample reason to fear when the guy climbed to the second floor and continued to break in. The intruder wasn't asking to borrow sugar. He was aggressively beating on more than one door in an attempt to gain entry without permission, at an extremely early hr.
It's unfortunate that the home owner has to carry the burden for the rest of his life. If the intruder had killed the owner would we be having this discussion? At least this way the criminal is the one paying the ultimate price.

[TXGunNut]

If some low life breaks into my Castle with ill intent I will happily be tried by 12 than carried by 6.


Have it your way, tampering with a crime scene is a good way to ensure the opportunity to be tried by a jury of your peers even after a justifiable shooting and could result in separate criminal charges. I've spent a fair amount on legal fees over the last several years on relatively minor matters, I suspect a serious criminal defense would cost me all I have and ever hope to have, quite likely including my right to own firearms. Don't know about the cops where you live but if you think you can pull one over on the crime scene folks around here you've been watching too much TV.

[starmac]

I think my words, quoted without benefit of the quote utiiity, will bear the interpretation that it is murder if he is known not to be "a criminal who can be expected to use dangerous violence on someone." Previous acquaintance between the protagonists might cast very strong doubt on that defence. If they were totally unknown to one another, there wouid surely be a strong tendency to assume the householder either right or within a reasonable degree of error. A record of saying "I wish a burglar would try my house" might undo that.

Opening the door is the thing that most needs explaining away, and a lot depends on architecture which we don't know about. Maybe neighbours or toolmarks will support a claim that he was working on another balcony door, which led to a wife's or children's room. Maybe the door was double glazed and at an angle to the sight picture, which will often deflect a bullet. "Often" could be an argumet for opening that door for a shot without glass, before the interloper could try a shot with. The possibilities are endless.

Lots of what if's. All I know is the same reports that you have read, where it was claimed the shooter apparently did not know the intruder, so unless they come up with more info, that is what we have to go with.
As far as a criminal with intent to harm, how would one determine that? Luckily we do not need to prove the guy intended bodily harm.
As far as how the house was built, unless the guy was living in a fort, that has very little to do with it.
I seldom lock my doors when I'm home, but that doesn't mean anyone can safely walk through them.

[TXGunNut]

Proving intent is not necessary around here either, partly due to the Castle Doctrine. Proving intent of an irrational person is about as easy as hitting a moving target with a cannon. Most balcony doors I've seen are mostly glass and provide no real barrier anyway, might as well open the door and tell the intruder in a loud and clear voice that he has erred badly and it's about to get worse.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Lots of what if's. All I know is the same reports that you have read, where it was claimed the shooter apparently did not know the intruder, so unless they come up with more info, that is what we have to go with.
As far as a criminal with intent to harm, how would one determine that? Luckily we do not need to prove the guy intended bodily harm.
As far as how the house was built, unless the guy was living in a fort, that has very little to do with it.
I seldom lock my doors when I'm home, but that doesn't mean anyone can safely walk through them.

Unknown factors are indeed important, and it seems to me that some people have devised a lot more certainties than I have "ifs". I don't believe anybody has yet found out whether Utah accepts the castle doctrine, or which of the many ways it can be interpreted. I think there is likely to be an assumption, and should be, that this householder had a realistic fear of violence. Certainly though, some forms of the doctrine don't confer a blanket right to perforate anyone making a noisy nuisance of himself at night. He needs more of the right sort of evidence.

[blixen01]

To wrap this up:

http://www.sltrib.com/news/2484559-155/utah-law-allows-gun-owners-to