shot placement above all else

[nagantguy]

Hope this is in the right spot, fell free to move if its not....something happened the other day that jogged a memory from deep in my foggy mind. A good friend works weekend as a butcher, they had a buffalo get out of the holding pen and run across two and into a back yard. My buddy had only his carry gun on him a 9mm pistol and his woodchuck gun a .243 model 70. After some attempts to coral the agitated bison he dispatched it with one round of soft point .243 said it dropped like the rug had been pulled out, between the ear and eye at about 40 yards. It made me remember as a young marine in on a float to a nasty place we did some training in Spain, a truck hit a bull a very large bull who was probably mad at the best of times well now he was furious spittle and bawling a platoon mate of mine we called him swamp rat; thing swamp people on history channel, he said " I can put him down on the spot, he was given a full mag, stood on the hood of a Humvee and with one round to the top of the head at about 65 yards....DRT. Neither of these stories involved cast boolits but the point is shot placement trumps all other considerations and variables. .5.56 nor .243 is by any stretch "Buffalo"guns but cool hands with a rifle won the day.

[dragon813gt]

Placement is more important than any other factor. I've passed on more shots than I can count because of this. Wounding an animal is one of the worse things you can do IMO.

[Digital Dan]

Watched an elephant drop from a single 5.56 round in Nam. Cost me a case of beer, but I call it a cheap education. No ele here abouts so I shoot pigs with CB Shorts. Once.

[blikseme300]

Reminds me of the expression: A miss is as good as a mile.

Tracked a number of wounded animals after bad shooting by hunters using super-duper magnums that were used poorly soured me to long range and poor shooting. I don't care how well somebody can shoot at long range from a bench as hunting should be done within capabilities in the field.

As a kid I took a number of Springbok using a Remington Target Master .22 using iron sights and shots to the head. It took patience and some luck as these animals are very wary. This experience stood me to good stead when I upgraded to a 8mm Mauser and larger game in the bushveld. I passed on many possible shots because I was not sure I could pull it off so tried again another day. Ethical hunting is a large part of my upbringing and I despise bad hunting ethics. I only shoot what I will eat and trophies leave me cold also.

[nagantguy]

Reminds me of the expression: A miss is as good as a mile.

Tracked a number of wounded animals after bad shooting by hunters using super-duper magnums that were used poorly soured me to long range and poor shooting. I don't care how well somebody can shoot at long range from a bench as hunting should be done within capabilities in the field.

As a kid I took a number of Springbok using a Remington Target Master .22 using iron sights and shots to the head. It took patience and some luck as these animals are very wary. This experience stood me to good stead when I upgraded to a 8mm Mauser and larger game in the bushveld. I passed on many possible shots because I was not sure I could pull it off so tried again another day. Ethical hunting is a large part of my upbringing and I despise bad hunting ethics. I only shoot what I will eat and trophies leave me cold also.

Right on, learning things like that in youth it sticks with ya, sound like you are the product of good upbringing! I don't trophy hunt either but funny thing is my freezer is full of "trophy" meat and fish! I got started hunting with a single shot 20gauge dad said when I got good with it I could get a pump 12, my dream at the time.....I got good 25 rabbits one December with 25 shells! Took my first buck with it also, 12 pumps sxs over understand and autos have come and gone by the scores still have that 20 and my grandkids will learn on it.

[white eagle]

reminds me of a story my father told me about a deer he killed
it was the last day of the gun deer season
the last push he did for my grandfather
he said a buck stood up in front of him at around 30 yds and was looking in the opposite direction
from which he was coming
he told me he shot right behind the ear and like your stories it was drt
It is a beautiful symmetric 8 pt.with a 19.5" inside spread

[olafhardt]

I read a report of a tiger stalking an APC when i was in Vietnam. The gunner cut loose with a 50BMG. The tiger attacked the ACP and was finished off with M 16's. I have often wondered why a shot to the CNS results in DRT, why do chickens run and jump when they get their heads chopped off.

[Djones]

I read a report of a tiger stalking an APC when i was in Vietnam. The gunner cut loose with a 50BMG. The tiger attacked the ACP and was finished off with M 16's. I have often wondered why a shot to the CNS results in DRT, why do chickens run and jump when they get their heads chopped off.


Same reason frog legs jump in the frying pan I reckin

[GoodOlBoy]

Same reason a cottonmouth or rattler will still bite ya with a cut off head

GoodOlBoy

[sixshot]

Bullet placement & penetration are way more important than caliber. A big gun just buys you more distance....& recoil. Also remember that recoil increases about twice the rate of velocity.

Dick

[ksfowler166]

Recently my next door neighbor's son who is 12 I think shot a Bison with a 243 win out of a truck window. He dropped it with one shot.

Along the lines of 5.56 for tigers many years ago Savage came out with what was designed as a deer round called the 22 Savage Hi Power also called the 22 Imp or 5.6 X 52mm R in Europe. The round was a .227 or .228 diameter 70gr bullet at 3100 fps. The round wound up being used on African game as well as tigers in India.

[leeggen]

There once was a guy that was allowed to hunt deer on our property, he normally used a 270 but for some reason he decided to use his 300 mag. He shot a deer at about 75yd said he had tracked it for a mile before losing it. I found it todays later 50 yds from where he had shot and wounded it, he shot the whole lower jaw off. I ask him about it and he states he wanted to do a head shot so he would not mess up the meat. Needless to say he never hunted here nor anywhere I found out he was hunting when on other peoples property. The reasoning for useing his 300 was "if I don't get a good hit I'll still kill the deer cause of the harder hitting slug.
I have passed up way more shots than I have taken because I just didn't like the 1 in XXX posibilities of a wound and not a dead on the spot shot.
Just me and the way I hunt.
CD

[quickdraw66]

I've seen plenty of deer taken cleanly with a .223 and a good hunting bullet (I like the 65gr GameKings). A well placed shot with a .223 is always better than a poor shot with a 458 Win Mag.

[condor257]

I hunted with a guy who swore by his 300 win mag, he shot a little blacktail buck maybe 110 pounds at 25 yards that deer never flinched until the dirt blew up behind him after it passed through the buck. We tracked that deer for a mile and lost the trail we did circles until it got to dark to see then came back the next morning for another look and never found him, the next day his son had a similar shot but using a 22-250 and the outcome was backstrap's for breakfast. Its not about power its about placement.

[44man]

Placement is always needed of course but most of us shoot off hand so a little discrepancy must be allowed for. As long as not a gut shot, the boolit should work for a fast kill. Shooting an animal in the brain is just not the norm. You can do that with a .22. Most hunt deer with an 06 or larger. Still takes a good hit. Still takes accuracy and a calm head.
Ever try and shoot a rooster in the head with a .22 pistol?

[Blammer]

Same reason a cottonmouth or rattler will still bite ya with a cut off head

GoodOlBoy


tenacity!

[44man]

I've seen plenty of deer taken cleanly with a .223 and a good hunting bullet (I like the 65gr GameKings). A well placed shot with a .223 is always better than a poor shot with a 458 Win Mag.
Not from me. My mailman brought his daughter to hunt, super good shot with a .223. She shot a big doe in the front, direct path to the heart. No blood at all. Lost deer. I went to my stand an hour later and found her deer. Maybe 150 yards from where hit. I gutted it and seen 6" of penetration only.
Whitworth was with us and 4 of us found no sign at all.
I convinced her father into a 30-30 and I call her the deer master now.
Maybe you kill deer with the toy but is it the right way?
I seen the skin blown off deer with no penetration with a .220 Swift but others claim kills. Bullet choice is a butt biter.

[quickdraw66]

Not from me. My mailman brought his daughter to hunt, super good shot with a .223. She shot a big doe in the front, direct path to the heart. No blood at all. Lost deer. I went to my stand an hour later and found her deer. Maybe 150 yards from where hit. I gutted it and seen 6" of penetration only.
Whitworth was with us and 4 of us found no sign at all.
I convinced her father into a 30-30 and I call her the deer master now.
Maybe you kill deer with the toy but is it the right way?
I seen the skin blown off deer with no penetration with a .220 Swift but others claim kills. Bullet choice is a butt biter.
With rounds like the .223, bullet selection is extremely important. You need one that will penetrate well, but also expand sufficiently. With the right bullet, and good shot placement, it will drop a deer in its tracks.

[44man]

More deer are lost around here from 7mm mags and .300's then anything else. I will add 30-06's and .308's. Best gun here is a revolver or 30-30. .35 Rem would be a good one.
Once helped a man drag a deer in PA, tiny thing so I carried his gun and stuff. He hit the deer and dropped it, got up and ran off. Snow, so he tracked and shot and shot, 30-06 with 180 gr bullets. After 6 shots it stayed down. All shots behind the shoulder that I could cover with my hand. Placement is lost if you use the wrong bullet. See me hunt with a .223? I don't think so.
.357 revolver can lose 50% of deer hit. .44 is better and the .475 BFR and .500 JRH BFR will drop every deer in place with no meat damage.

[1Shirt]

Sure is hard to beat 44Mans logic!
1Shirt!

[44man]

With rounds like the .223, bullet selection is extremely important. You need one that will penetrate well, but also expand sufficiently. With the right bullet, and good shot placement, it will drop a deer in its tracks.
You are correct and it is what I say for every single caliber. Bullet/boolit work! But how do you know unless you kill animals and see? I do not want to lose a single deer. I did from being wrong.

[nagantguy]

44man your wisdom is sound and I've never known you to give bad council! The two stories to start this post was not to advocate small guns on big game, just using what was on hand to end bad situations both were first hand accounts, one I saw my self the other saw the outcome of and heard the tale from several witnesses . im an advocate of using enough gun, any rifle in the hands of a true student of the rifle beats a sharp stick or a miss with a cannon. IT left an impression on me to see that enraged bull go lights out like that.

[44man]

44man your wisdom is sound and I've never known you to give bad council! The two stories to start this post was not to advocate small guns on big game, just using what was on hand to end bad situations both were first hand accounts, one I saw my self the other saw the outcome of and heard the tale from several witnesses . im an advocate of using enough gun, any rifle in the hands of a true student of the rifle beats a sharp stick or a miss with a cannon. IT left an impression on me to see that enraged bull go lights out like that.
I agree, most cows are killed with some hammer with a low charge. Takes very little to kill if in the right spot. But animals are not wanting to die and a deer can be very tough.

[white eagle]

that brings up a whole new dimension in the hunting and ceasing of the animals life.
if the animal is calm and unaware it is in danger or if the animal has been shot at or
was disturbed before the shot or shots make a world of difference as to how easy the
end is and what it takes to do the deed.

[jhalcott]

Quite true! A deer on alert or scared can go a long way after its heart is shot out. A hit to the brain or spine slows them down a lot!

[Geezer in NH]

Ever try and shoot a rooster in the head with a .22 pistol? Yep took the whole magazine but I got the bastard who spurred me the second time.

[1911cherry]

I have repeatedly tracked deer shot with a .223 for a long way, 3200 fps is pointless without enough bullet weight to penetrate tissue , or pass through. Bullets that enter in line with the heart behind the shoulder can wind up in a hind quarter , or disintegrate completely just wounding a deer. I dont teach head shots on deer so I switched my little huntress to a 30 cal boolit, it is not as pin point accurate as her .223 but I think a 185grn lead slug will make a much cleaner kill with a shot to the vitals. Disrupting the nervous system is always the most effective way , but not always practical or possible.

[Love Life]

Back when I still hunted (not to be confused with still hunting), I used a .223 quite a bit. I shot the deer in the head. Usually blew the eyeballs out of the sockets and they dropped in their tracks. If you can't hit a deer head within 100 yds with an accurate .223 then you need to spend more time at the range. If a deer was farther than I was comfortable shooting, then I would do the ol' sneak-a-roo and get closer or pass on the shot. I upgraded to a 30-30 at one point, and started shooting in the vitals. Some dropped where hit, and some ran a little ways. I then started waiting until they were closer and shooting them in the head again. If I couldn't assure myself of a clean head shot, then I didn't shoot.

I eventually upgraded to a 8mm Mauser. It was a pristine M48A yugo. Behind the shoulder hits with Remington Cor-lokt bullets usually resulted in dropping where hit or a very little running. So I used the 8mm for the rest of my hunting days. These were Georgia deer. Not very large most of the time.

Having spent many years (not as many as some of the ancient members here (said jokingly)), I find hunter accuracy pretty poor more often than not. Every year since I have been shooting, sight in week before hunting season has always been amusing and dangerous. I often asked myself how some of these people ever kilted a deer. Pie plates, shooting a box of rounds until you hit the pie plate (without ever touching the scope adjustments) and calling the rifle zeroed. 10 inch groups at 100 yds with the declaration "She usually shoots under and inch in the field!"

Ahh. Good times.

Summary: Shot placement is very important, but combining shot placement with an adequate caliber tilts the odds further in your favor.

[pmer]

The smallest cartridge I ever used was a .300-221. I had a nice doe coming and was going to try for a chest shot but chickened out and went for neck, the neck seems bigger than the head and therefore more forgiving. I used a Nosler 150 grain Ballisitc Tip, I figured it would hold up good because of the lower velocity. It worked good in that case. Shot placement means as much today as when the .32-20 was new.

I too think you have use what you have on hand sometimes. Then it helps to have some knowledge of the animal, luck and a nice shot. At home,I recently had a quick chance on a big female coyote. It was about as quick as I could "grab and go". I happened to be working with a AR and a prairie dog load and also had a loaded magazine (luck). She turned on the first shot and running broad side went down on the third shot (nice shot). First was a miss, second was a lower graze, third blew in the chest like small nuke went off. .20-.223, 40 grain Hornaday V-max

[Markbo]

... The reasoning for useing his 300 was "if I don't get a good hit I'll still kill the deer cause of the harder hitting slug.".....

I cannot call that guy an idiot because it kind of makes sense if you re not a gun guy. I have met an awful lot of hunters with this same mistaken belief. However...we that do know better owe it to everyone to take every opportunity to dispel this very dangerous assumption. I have personally tracked more lost deer shot with the 7mm Mag than all other calibers combined.

Just be nice about it and explain with stories and personal experience why this dangerous assumption is so wrong. I have found once a knowledgeable gun guy starts talking your average hunter will listen because it's obvious you know way more than them.

[44man]

Same as anyone saying they can hit a deer in the brain every shot. Can you give me a break?

[BAGTIC]

Freshly dressed chicken, rabbit, frog legs will often twitch or jerk when sprinkled with a little salt. It is a purely chemical reaction no brains needed. It is the same thing that makes it possible for many politicians to give opinions on things they know nothing about. Twitching of the tongue, no brains needed.

[FSR]

When I was a new hunter all you could use in my part of Michigan was 1. A shotgun 2. A Muzzle loader.
My Dad made sure I had both. My first deer went down to an Ithaca 12 gauge using a paper patched Lyman foster style slug. In fact most of my deer have fallen to this combo. We spent a lot of time working up that load and it has served me well ovewr the years.

[44man]

What worries me about deer is they can move their head with any sound right at trigger break. Best way to head shoot them is when you blind them with a spot light. :kidding:

[waksupi]

Those who say they can hit a deer in the brain every time, will also lie to you about other things.

[44man]

Those who say they can hit a deer in the brain every time, will also lie to you about other things.
That would be night hunting from the truck!

[GhostHawk]

My problem with head shots on a deer is that head moves a LOT. If they are head down feeding, that head comes up FAST at any sound not normal to the area. I've sat and watched does and small bucks feeding in mid afternoon. Farm quarter mile away, screen door slams, not even a blink. Car starts, tractor starts, nada. A single twig snaps in the trees and all heads are up instantly, all ears pointed toward the sound. It all depends on what is "Normal" to the area.

I have seen them outjump shotgun slugs at 40 yards easily.

If however you aimed for the neck where it connects to the shoulders. If the deer should jump up and forward. Well you just landed a still fatal round. In theory at least.

I will freely admit that I got most of my deer following a simple piece of advice from an old friend.
Don't stand out there like a fencepost, and if they are coming at you, let them come.

My big 10 pointer on my wall was less than 6" above the end of my shotgun barrel, he never saw me, jumped right over the firebush I was tucked into, and me. One shot into the heart from super close range. The 20 gauge slug ripped up through his heart, lung lodged into the right shoulder.

My best one though was a straight on shot at a nice doe, I was tucked into a small weed cluster around a power pole.
She was coming straight at me, so I waited till she was can't miss close. Straight into the chest from the front, she sumersaulted 3 times and landed with her nose on my left shoe. That was almost too close. My old hunting buddy came wandering that way, I'm still hunkered down. He says "I heard you shoot" Right beside me I said, and he walked around the pole. Looked at the deer, back tracked it, it was pretty plain where she took the shot. "*** over teakettle?" he asked. Yep, 3 times.

Boy, that is almost too close.

Yep.

Hunker down, if they are coming your way, let them come. Take a good bead, try to stay just out of falling deer range. :)

[waksupi]

That would be night hunting from the truck!

Know how they close the hunting season on the reservation? Take all the window cranks off the pick ups!

[44man]

Know how they close the hunting season on the reservation? Take all the window cranks off the pick ups!
That's a good one! :bigsmyl2:
But some red necks put a battery drill on them!

[Bad Water Bill]

Take all the window cranks off the pick ups and how can they throw their beer cans along the trail leading to their T Pee?

[44man]

Yeah, had a redneck next door that snuck where he had no permission, put a board across trees to sit. He stole a neighbors buck once. I found where he was and there was at least 100 beer cans tossed. I took a bag and got money for all of them, tore the seat down. I had permission to hunt there but not him.
The jerk that owns the property has race horses and lets those working the track come over. His brother was the guy hunting. From his drive, up the road is always full of beer cans and bottles. i was looking for berries across the road once and found all kinds of trash that was not there before. I spent a few hours tossing all of it over the fence back where it came from. I also pick up the bottles on the road and toss into his horse pasture.
Once I found all kinds of beer bottles and cans in my yard, picked them up and also cleaned the road. I dumped the whole bag in his drive. Things are better now.

[barrabruce]

Never shot deer but a LOT of wabbits cats etc plus other assorted creatures.
Most tenacious animal that I have shot would be a cat.
Put a load of six shot 12 gauge at around 20 yrds into its head with full choke.
That thing sprung up and must of ran 50 yrds.
After I picked it up the head was still intact but just a bag of mush.

Only over thing I can remember being worse is fresh water eels when I visited my grand parents when I was a kid.
After the inaugural skinning gutting and chopping up they were place in the fridge over night.
Next morning in the frypan some of the sections kept squirming for a while.
:)
Sometimes things just don't wanna die regardless.

Ohh I found that a well placed shot into the ear hole usually is pretty much a dead cert for the dropped like a stone effect.

Its just getting the shot away and in there with them being not aware can be the trickiest part.

I haven't hunted for years ....but I detest the bigger is more is better syndrome if you cant shoot the damn thing.
I will only shoot something if I am comfortable pulling the shot off.
Could be 50 yrds or 500yds I suppose I have learnt to shoot with in my limitations at the time very early on when I was kid growing up.

[HABCAN]

Adequate skill to place the projectile in a vital area, plus adequate caliber for the game hunted, plus adequate projectile performance after the hit = the perfect equilateral triangle for fair chase hunting, regardless of 'range'. "Run whut ya brung!" is fine IF you can 'run' it under those specific circumstances.

[SavageMan2506]

Most people round here use 30-06 and 300 ultra mags to shoot blacktail... I use a 25-06 and .257 Roberts and everyone I hunt with do too... My uncle shot a big buck at 462 yds with it, and broke his shoulders and got a clean 2 lung shot... So **** placement is key. He was using a 120 grain bullet but now uses 100, we just shoot a little shorter range

[SavageMan2506]

*shot, not s h i t

[M-Tecs]

no shot!!!!!!