45 ACP Boolit seating

[ddredd99]

I am a newbie to this and have a question. I cast some .452 and lubed and ran though a sizer. My problem is when I seat the bullet, there seems to be like shaved lead sitting at the junction of where the brass and lead meet. Also. the point where the bullet meets the seating die has a ring also where the lube is being removed (it is about half way up the angled part of the bullet, I am using a 230 grain flat nose bullet) in this process, possibly due to hard insertion at this stage. I feel the case mouth is flared sufficiently, so not sure why this is occurring. I was wondering if anyone has any ideas as to why this is happening, and how to potentially correct this, or is this normal? Thanks!

[depoloni]

Seating and crimping in one step?

[smokeywolf]

If you're taper crimping with the seating plug in place, that would cause what you describe.

45 ACP must be crimped in a separate operation (for the sake of convenience, using a Lee Factory Crimp die), after the seating plug has done its job.

[BNE]

Ths drives me crazy!! I use a Lyman "M" die to expand and flare the brass. It allows you to seat the bollit a little deeper and (I think) a little straighter. I then begrudgingly seated the boolit and then applied the crimp in two separate steps. You do not have this problem with jacketed bullets.

Once I figured this out, it was not that bad. (I had a lot of help from this sight also.)

It is important that you do not have that lead built up on the front edge of the brass. It will mess up your head spacing and your gun will jam.

Take your gun apart and put a factory round intot the barrel. Observe the "Plunk" sound and the depth that it goes into the barrel. If the rounds you are making do the same thing, your boolits will fuction just fine. Welcome to the addiction!

[ddredd99]

I am seating and crimping in 2 steps. I have a LFCD also as my final stage.

[depoloni]

Hmm. Interesting.

I would try belling just a hair or two wider, then seeing if this resolves your problem as a first go. You'd have to be shaving that lead off the circumference of the boolit with the brass one way or another it would seem... can't wrap my head around any other way around it off-hand.

[NC_JEFF]

It does sound like your not flaring the brass quite enough in the powder thru/charging die.

[oldfart1956]

It does sound like your not flaring the brass quite enough in the powder thru/charging die. Probably...this. Try turning your powder-thru-expanding die in just a smidge more. It won't take much and if you keep a boolit handy you can see if it slips just into the mouth of the case after expanding. Make little adjustments cause the Lee goes from no/little expansion to looking like a French horn! Now if your die is hitting the shell holder...this ain't gonna work. NOE (vendor here) sells expander plugs that will work. Keep in mind the expander from Lee is designed for jacketed bullets (.451 probably) and not the oversize boolits we're using. Next possibility, the seating die is also a crimp/taper crimp die. If it's trying to seat&crimp at the same time this can shave the boolit. Try backing that die out a full turn or 2 and then run the seater adjustment in until you get the o.a.l. you're shooting for. You should be able to put an expanded case in the shell holder and run it up in the seater die and feel...nothing. (no boolit of course) Now you can crimp on the next stage. I'm assuming the Lee 4 die set as you mentioned the LFCD. Excellent choice by the way. Set the LFCD up so it just barely touches the mouth of the case at full height of the ram by adjusting the center part of the die. Audie...the Oldfart..

[runfiverun]

and just for the fun of it back your seating die out about a half turn.
take the seating stem out.
put in one with a flat face on it.


the fcd is making your rounds small enough to fit in any gun.
the bad part of that means it generally is also squishing your boolit down.

[ffries61]

This sounds exactly like what was happening to me a while back, try flaring a case, then running it empty into seater, and check flare again, my Lee seating die had the bore so far undersize, it would take all the flare out, without ever crimping.


Fred

[MOA]

I am a newbie to this and have a question. I cast some .452 and lubed and ran though a sizer. My problem is when I seat the bullet, there seems to be like shaved lead sitting at the junction of where the brass and lead meet. Also. the point where the bullet meets the seating die has a ring also where the lube is being removed (it is about half way up the angled part of the bullet, I am using a 250 grain flat nose bullet) in this process, possibly due to hard insertion at this stage. I feel the case mouth is flared sufficiently, so not sure why this is occurring. I was wondering if anyone has any ideas as to why this is happening, and how to potentially correct this, or is this normal? Thanks!


Save yourself a lot of frustration loading cast boolits. Most , if not all reloading dies are made for J word bullets, not cast ones.

I decided at the get go to use the "M" die from Lyman as the easiest and most straight forward method to save my sanity..

http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab136/nitroexpress450400/Mobile%20Uploads/20150503_065730_zpsm4cbg0qn.jpg (http://s857.photobucket.com/user/nitroexpress450400/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20150503_065730_zpsm4cbg0qn.jpg.html)

[Dan Cash]

How big is your bullet? 250 grains suggests .454 not .452 which can well cause your described problem. If bullet is not oversized, others have told you how to fix the problem.

[prs]

Good advice about using internal size and flare die designed for lead boolits, M die or CowBoy die. I also avoid using the Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die on lead boolits. We take great care cast at correct size or size our cast boolits to correct size, no reason to mash them down two or three sizes with such die.

Consider the other tips, but also take time to disassemble your seating and your crimping dies to make sure they are clean and not jammed or gobbed-up with lube and lead shaves.

prs

[MOA]

prs is correct. Let's not be dime smart and dollar stupid. We struggle hard to cast good boolits, lets spend a few more dollars and get good tools that will not ruin all our hard work.

http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab136/nitroexpress450400/Mobile%20Uploads/20150503_092420_zpshfwcvix4.jpg (http://s857.photobucket.com/user/nitroexpress450400/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20150503_092420_zpshfwcvix4.jpg.html)

[ddredd99]

Thanks to all who took time to give advice and tips on this topic!

[runfiverun]

see those 2 pictures above?
yeah?
I own none [zero, zip, zilch, nada] of the tools pictured.
I somehow manage to struggle by without them and will probably manage to do so for the remainder of my lifetime.

[backhoe]

Yup what he said.

[MOA]

see those 2 pictures above?
yeah?
I own none [zero, zip, zilch, nada] of the tools pictured.
I somehow manage to struggle by without them and will probably manage to do so for the remainder of my lifetime.

I guess some like to struggle a long, long time!!

[gloob]

I somehow manage to struggle by without them and will probably manage to do so for the remainder of my lifetime.

I guess some like to struggle a long, long time!!
Some folks don't have problems. Doesn't mean these tools don't solve real problems. Your guys' sizing dies are probably on the loose side. I don't need anything special to load 45ACP or 38/357, either, but my sizing dies in those two calibers are observably generous. OTOH, I need aftermarket/custom expanders for my 9mm and 40SW, unless I want to scrape solid lead out of my barrels with a brass tube.

Rule of them, if your ammo doesn't have any observable coke-bottle effect, your sizing die is big enough where you probably won't see any effect from a larger expander plug, anyway. I went ahead and bought an oversize expander for my 45ACP, anyway, and guess what... it doesn't hardly do anything to 75% of my brass. But some of us have dies that are tighter. The larger expander plug just gets the brass to where your guys' starts out. E.g., after expanding my 9mm and 40 SW brass with oversize expanders, the case has a coke-bottle before even seating a bullet. And the bullets still get full neck tension.

But, the stock Lyman M die doesn't cut it for my pistol ammo. It's still too small for cast bullets, IMO. I have them for all my rifle calibers, and I use the M die body for my 40SW, but with a custom plug. NOE is a cheaper option, if you can find the right size. They make a good variety of plugs for 38 and 45 caliber. I had to go custom for my 40SW.

I measured my stock 40SW Lyman M die plug at 398, with a 402 flare. And with my sizing die and brass, this left the cases too tight, even for jacketed bullets IMO. Even the flare was too small, shaving my MBC cast bullets. Lyman customer service sent out a plug for a rife that was 404. I turned it down to 401 with a tiny bit of distal taper to 400 1/2, with a 404 flare, and that is working great. My 40SW ammo loaded with this expander has much more neck tension than my 45ACP ammo using a vastly undersized stock expander.

[prs]

prs is correct. Let's not be dime smart and dollar stupid. We struggle hard to cast good boolits, lets spend a few more dollars and get good tools that will not ruin all our hard work.

http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab136/nitroexpress450400/Mobile%20Uploads/20150503_092420_zpshfwcvix4.jpg (http://s857.photobucket.com/user/nitroexpress450400/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20150503_092420_zpshfwcvix4.jpg.html)
But I don't use those tools you show. I think the collet type may have promise, but I have none. I have used the .40 SW to use as the die in my bulge buster. The post about some full length size dies being tight, may well have merit too.

prs

[yman]

I had the same prob reloading 44's one time. I think there was not enough flare and I was crimping to much. I put in a little more flare and backed off on the crimp a little and Ta-Da, problem solved. That may not fix your specific problem, but its quick and easy way to try.

[DougGuy]

I have done every smidgen bit of my 30 or 35+yrs of reloading with Lee dies and gear. Yes it takes a little adjusting and modifying, deburring, polishing, sometimes replacing, whatever you gotta do to make it work smooth and consistently, and I don't have shaved lead, downsized boolits after loading, the loads are accurate and don't lead the bores. It ain't the gear, it ain't the color, it's how well you know your equipment, process, and results that count.

First off, OP comes in here and says "Forum members, I have this (______ <-- use these spaces to insert description of issue here) problem, how can I fix this? Next thing, OP takes all of the replies, tries some of the advice and sees what works and what doesn't. Next thing you know, he has a CLUE and knows what to do to fix the problem. This is how this forum works. Keep that up and you will get better and better at your craft.

2 things.. First, when you finish seating the boolit as the crimp ring in the die starts applying, it's closing the case mouth in at the same time the seating plug is still pushing the boolit down into the case. This is a prime candidate for shaving lead. You will have better results if you use a separate step for crimping, after the seating step. I set my seating die so that as the boolit is seated, the crimp barely takes the bell out of the case mouth and straightens the case sides, but doesn't apply any crimp. Then I move the boolit to the next step and crimp each round individually with either a taper crimp die if I am loading for .45 ACP, or a collet crimp die if I am loading for .44 mag or Ruger Only .45 colt. For standard pressure .45 colt, I use the roll crimp that is in the seating die. IF you are loading flat point, RF or TC style boolits, yes you would probably want to use a flat seating plug.

The Lee FCD with the carbide ring WILL swage a cast boolit down inside the case if the boolit is .452" if you are loading .451" boolits, it won't swage those down. So... If you want your .452" boolits to STAY .452" when you assemble them, ditch the FCD with the carbide ring in the bottom of it, and simply use a taper crimp die. The standard Lee .45 ACP set uses a roll type crimp in the seating die, and you don't want to use this with an autoloader. You can take some of the bell mouth out with it while it seats the boolit, but use a separate taper crimp die and I think you will have much better results.

[MOA]

prs,
Yes, the fl dies are tight when used for cast. I have always thought that was almost always a given.