Another patching question

[Marlin Junky]

If I patch my bullets up .010" in diameter with two wraps of .0025" paper and my grooves are only .003" deep, will my patches be cut by the lands to the point where the patch will leave the bullets upon exiting the muzzle? My bore diameter is about .351", my groove diameter about .357" and the diameter of the ball-seat is near .361".

MJ

[wonderwolf]

I'm not sure by the way you worded the Q if you are worried about the paper sticking to the bullet or the Patch being cut to the point its not effective.

You want the bullet to shed itself of the patch upon exiting the muzzle. Think of it like a sabot. :Fire:

[Marlin Junky]

You want the bullet to shed itself of the patch upon exiting the muzzle. Think of it like a sabot. :Fire:

I'm aware of that. Will it happen under the conditions I've outlined?

MJ

[4060MAY]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=22436

shows the patches after firing, they were about 6-8' in front of the bench

[Marlin Junky]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=22436

shows the patches after firing, they were about 6-8' in front of the bench

Three questions:

What thickness paper did you use? I assume you used two wraps.

Isn't shooting unlubed paper going to wear your barrel?

What is your bore and groove diameter?

MJ

[4060MAY]

paper thickness .0015-.002 9# onion skin 25%cotton
2 wraps
I'm not shooting unlubed, the barrel is wiped with Water Soluble oil and water, between shots--Black Powder, a coating of oil is in the barrel from the wiping patch. I tried using my BP lube on the PP, but it caused fliers in a very limited test.

I also tried LEE case lube, didn't seem to hurt the accuracy, I couldn't say if it kept the barrel from wearing.

bore is .400, groove is .408 near as I can measure
the freebore is .408-.409 dia. about .300 long, with a 3*incl throat
The Barrel is a Badger 1-16 twist the cal is 40-60Maynard

The bullets are .399 dia. straight, 400gr.

I'm not really concerned with barrel wear, on the Shilo forum ther is a long thread about PP and wear.

I have been shooting this gun and barrel since 1997 in competition with GG bullets, and the test with the PP bullet is the most consistent it has ever shot at the range, I will shoot it in some matches this year, hopefully it will hold up under match conditions.

[4060MAY]

By the way , are you using a Marlin MG barrel ?, we have one in 30-30 and were going to try patching it just to see.

I would be interested in your results.

also have you seen Brent Danielson's web site on PPatching?

I understand it has been taken down but someone said there is a backup on google.

or here
http://members.shaw.ca/bobschewe/

[longbow]

I downloaded Brent Danielson's website to PDF after it disappeared from his original website. I found it in the "backup" so made sure I got it.

I have looked again with no succes but if you want it I can e-mail it to you - or if someone can tell me how to attach it to a post I could do that.

Longbow

[Marlin Junky]

4060,

Nah, it's not a Marlin Microgroove by definition but the grooves are only .003" deep. It actually is a H&R .35 Whelen with a 16" twist.

So what do you think the chances for success are with a .3605" patched bullet (patched to fit the throat) going down a .351"/.357" barrel and shooting into 2MOA? I was planning to launch with a mild load of H380 and dip the patched bullets into a medium hard lube of mine which contains some carnauba. The bullet metal will be Pb with 4-5% Sn addded. I need a .351" push through die before I can proceed though.

MJ

[Buckshot]

............You shouldn't have any issues at all. The escaping gasses at the muzzle should blow the patch off the slug.

4060May I'm surprised to see those PP's so intact after a trip up the barrel. Even my Whitworth, which has nothing in the barrel that would actually score the paper (like lands) literally blows the patch into confetti as the slug exits. I have picked up pieces as large as a postage stamp, but that's about it!

..................Buckshot

[4060MAY]

Buckshot
I was surprised also, but it shot well, so I guess it doesn't matter.
I was in contact with Brent Danielson when i first started because he seemed to have the knowledge. He didn't think it was a problem. and as it tuned out it isn't. my 38-50 cuts the patches smaller but not much, not really shreds and the bore/groove is .368/.375 and I'm patching a .360 dia bullet to .370 1-20 alloy, Black Powder.

Using the same .40 cal bullet in my Ped/Sharps .399/.407 with .411 freebore, patched to .408 lots of shreds and some leading, still working out the bugs, patches lubed with LEE case sizing lube or Darr lube. both work as well, not dipped just lightly wiped on, trying not to soak the patch which I was told was detrimental to accuracy.

[405]

I think it should come off the bullet in shreds as the bullet leaves the muzzle. Also, I'm a little unclear as to your concerns. Accuracy and leading are what I look at with PP or any load for that matter. I would think if your final bullet diameter is at least larger than bore diameter the lands will score the patch... then the escaping muzzle blast will strip any remaining patch from the bullet. Also, using pure lead and having experimented with "shouldered" non-tapered swaged PP bullets and PP bullets sized to over groove diameter that in both situations accuracy suffered and leading became a problem. Finally, given bullets that were paper patched at something over bore diameter, the only time that I've heard of patches staying on bullets were when some form of glue or other sticky substance was used with water to wet the patches for wrapping.

After a lot of testing I found that in both my 45-70 and 45-110 a final paper patched diameter of the bullet (swaged, smooth sided, tapered, flat base, pure lead) of between bore and groove diameter gave the best accuracy and no leading.

Specifically

Both bores are:

Bore dia- .451
Groove dia- .458

Best bullet is:
Bare dia- .447
PP dia- .455

Paper is 100% cotton .0025" twice wrapped
adds .008" to bullet diameter when dried.

Paper strips are wet when wrapped and extend past the ogive/shank junction about .1-.2" and cover all but about a .1" diameter circle at center of base of bullet.

The paper patched bullets are very lightly lubed with either Rooster or Felix-like lube when dry.

Load is blackpowder, card, cookie, card, bullet with light compression.

The bullets are seated so paper engraves into lands about .1-.15" when the round is chambered.

I have never found a whole patch. I've had others shoot these loads and always see a shower of confetti a few feet in front of muzzle. When shooting over snow the largest pieces found are long rectangles maybe .1" x .5". Occassionally a base flap about 3/8" x 3/8" can be found.

pic of base of swaged, flat base PP bullet

[4060MAY]

MJ
Before we hijack your thread, try what you have, and see if it works.

Let us know.

[Marlin Junky]

Don't worry about hijacking the thread but I need a .351" push through die which may take some time to acquire.

MJ

P.S. Just a word about sizing dies though: I've noticed that my Lyman 450 dies size a soft lead bullet about .001" less than their indicated diameter. Should I ask Lee to cut a .352" die or a die that'll size soft lead to .351"? I also want to check the bore diameter of my .350RM before ordering the die in case the H-R (.35W) proves too difficult to work with.

[WyrTwister]

paper thickness .0015-.002 9# onion skin 25%cotton
2 wraps
I'm not shooting unlubed, the barrel is wiped with Water Soluble oil and water, between shots--Black Powder, a coating of oil is in the barrel from the wiping patch. I tried using my BP lube on the PP, but it caused fliers in a very limited test.

I also tried LEE case lube, didn't seem to hurt the accuracy, I couldn't say if it kept the barrel from wearing.

bore is .400, groove is .408 near as I can measure
the freebore is .408-.409 dia. about .300 long, with a 3*incl throat
The Barrel is a Badger 1-16 twist the cal is 40-60Maynard

The bullets are .399 dia. straight, 400gr.

I'm not really concerned with barrel wear, on the Shilo forum ther is a long thread about PP and wear.

I have been shooting this gun and barrel since 1997 in competition with GG bullets, and the test with the PP bullet is the most consistent it has ever shot at the range, I will shoot it in some matches this year, hopefully it will hold up under match conditions.


Might try Lee Liquid Alox bullet lube ?

God bless
Wyr

[WyrTwister]

Don't worry about hijacking the thread but I need a .351" push through die which may take some time to acquire.

MJ

P.S. Just a word about sizing dies though: I've noticed that my Lyman 450 dies size a soft lead bullet about .001" less than their indicated diameter. Should I ask Lee to cut a .352" die or a die that'll size soft lead to .351"? I also want to check the bore diameter of my .350RM before ordering the die in case the H-R (.35W) proves too difficult to work with.

Lee makes a .329 " push through die . They are inexpensive . You might try honeing one out to the diameter you want ?

They also make a .356" , but would that be too big ?

God bless
Wyr

[Marlin Junky]

Lee makes a .329 " push through die . They are inexpensive . You might try honeing one out to the diameter you want ?

They also make a .356" , but would that be too big ?

God bless
Wyr

I have no way to enlarge a .329" die to .351" or there abouts. Unfortunately I have to hire someone to do this piddlely little job.

MJ

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Marlinjunky,

If you're using something like pure lead, you could just size the patched bullets. This isn't a crazy idea. Sure some patches will rip, but not that many and all ya need to do is re-patch the bullet and size it again.

Do you have a .360 sizer? Heck even a .358 die would get you started.

You can't steer a parked car, it's gotta be moving first. You might just give things a try and decide later just how to spend your money.

What weight bullet do you intend to use? A .35 Whelen and a .350RM are capable of pushing the limits of pure lead. I think Paul Matthews says that pure lead can't handle the atmospheric friction past 2200 fps. Depending on the bullet weight, your .35s could easily exceed this velocity. That's partly why I elected to go with a 280 grain bullet mold, thinking that if I had to keep it under 2200 fps at least a heavy bullet would develop the full energy of a Whelen. As it turns out wheel weight alloy seems to tolerate a few hundred fps above that 2200 mark.

[Marlin Junky]

Black Jaque,

I have dies that will take a 1:30 bullet down to .3565" so I'll patch that diameter and size the patched bullet in my .360 die which actually sizes ACWW metal to .3605". I would think doing this would loosen the patch though.

Can I patch with tracing vellum? I'm not sure I can determine the grain direction even by tearing this stuff, but it looks to be running parallel to the long side of the sheet.

MJ

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

I would think doing this would loosen the patch though.

You'll be surprised. Look at it this way. What's the risk of trying? If nothing works at all, you'll only be out a sheet of paper and a few cast bullets.

You're better off giving some things a try first before you go spending any real money. Unless $80 for a mold is pocket change for ya.

That's partly why I'm encouraging you to try things out with just what you already have. I wouldn't see the point in buying a .351" sizing die if you end up deciding that paper patching ain't for you then what are ya gonna do with the die?


Can I patch with tracing vellum?

Dude, there are no hard-and-fast rules about what you can and cannot patch with. The only rule I was cautioned against was to never use whiskey to moisen cigarette paper, then roll onto a bullet: the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms would go apoplectic! Hee-hee.

[rhead]

Yes tracing paper works great. I use the Meade brand from Wal Mart. I also patch .358's as cast and then size to use in my 357's. The paper will tear on some of the bullets but if you repatch them they will almost always work the second time. I lube with Johnsons paste wax after patching and before sizing and use a twist tail cut short.
Jack is right you can't steer a parked car.

[oso]

. . . The only rule I was cautioned against was to never use whiskey to moisen cigarette paper, then roll onto a bullet: the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms would go apoplectic! Hee-hee.

Now you tell me! Do I need a license to do that?

[2bizzy]

Have had several interesting developments since my last post which I will get around to but one thing I have run into that is really annoying is when I seat my patched boolits in the cases, "sometimes"... the boolit seats but the patch does not! After all that work....Arrgh!! Here's what I'm using..... Baco molds .446 520gr boolits wet patched to .4585 then when dry, Rooster lube is applied with a Q-tip to the entire dry patch. I allow this to dry for several days. The cases have been either new un fired or FL sized fired with Lyman dies and either are given a couple of passes through a Lyman M-die. This patch stripping happens on average about 4 out of ten rounds when I seat...which is done by first finger seating in the expanded case, and then seated, (carefully) with a Lyman seating die. I then finish up the surviving correctly seated rounds with a gentle taper crimp to close up the slight bell created by the M-die. Accuracy with these completed rounds using 27 grs of Accurate 5744 is really quite good and I have begun to hone things down even further but this paper jacket "shedding" continues to annoy.... any suggestions?

[geargnasher]

2bizzy, if you'd use a grease-groove boolit with that smokeless powder your dried wet-patch wouldn't come off like that.

MJ, if your boolit is a thousandth or two larger than the bore diameter and there is enough paper thickness to make it larger than groove diameter, the patch will cut nicely. If you don't use anything to "glue" the patch to the boolit, and even spray the bare boolits with dry silicone lube before rolling, the patch will come off. When you have to start worrying about the patch not coming off is when you use really tough paper like 100% cotton vellum and use regular boolit lube, LLA, or glue between the booit and the patch. The patch can and will hang on for a split second too long and distrupt the flight of the boolit slightly.

Once you actually try it you'll see that there's really nothing to worry about if you just follow these basic guidelines, the rest is simply tweaking the load. Use JPW or regular boolit lube for a patch lube, really just about anything works. I've even tumble-lubed dried patched boolits in Recluse lube with very good results.

Gear

[zuke]

I apply my patch's with spit and twist the tail.
Put'em into an MTM ammo box to dry then load'em up.
I leave them dry,no lube at all.
I'm just starting to play with the 303 in a Ross Rifle with a black bore but after 20 rds it's starting to clear up!
I'm using an as cast LEE 308/180 gr bullet.
,and patching as is.
The scarry part is when the bullet's are patched their about 316-318 in dia and they chamber with no hangup's!

[Lead pot]

You guys should get some green Persimmons next summer and grind them up and use a potato ricer and get all the juice out of the pulp and dip your patches in the juice and wrap your bullets with it.
It will do to things for you.
#1 it will shrink the paper and maybe the bullet too.
#2 the groups will also shrink to sub MOA.

Y'all have a Happy New Year.

[2bizzy]

You guys should get some green Persimmons next summer and grind them up and use a potato ricer and get all the juice out of the pulp and dip your patches in the juice and wrap your bullets with it.
It will do to things for you.
#1 it will shrink the paper and maybe the bullet too.
#2 the groups will also shrink to sub MOA.

Y'all have a Happy New Year.

I'm intrigued ! Now, how did you come by this recipe?

[geargnasher]

You guys should get some green Persimmons next summer and grind them up and use a potato ricer and get all the juice out of the pulp and dip your patches in the juice and wrap your bullets with it.
It will do to things for you.
#1 it will shrink the paper and maybe the bullet too.
#2 the groups will also shrink to sub MOA.

Y'all have a Happy New Year.

:awesome::2_high5: That's funny right there!

I wonder, if you soaked strings in that stuff and tied them around slicks, would it make loob grooves? Maybe that's how Waksupi makes them ;-)

Gear

[Lead pot]

I'm intrigued ! Now, how did you come by this recipe?

[smilie=l: Just bite into a green one sometime and you will see how well it will pucker your mouth up :-o It just has to do the same with paper and groups :redneck:

I know you fellers up your way don't have them growing up there but there is always preparation H it will work too and it is a good lube.:bigsmyl2:

Lp.

[Lead pot]

:awesome::2_high5: That's funny right there!

I wonder, if you soaked strings in that stuff and tied them around slicks, would it make loob grooves? Maybe that's how Waksupi makes them ;-)

Gear
Yup it'l work too.

[Nrut]

2bizzy,
Try a different lube..
Dried Rooster Jacket is waxy and doesn't slide in the brass case neck that well..
I would lube with Rooster Jacket, let it dry, do final resize (if necessary), then seat long in the case so the bullets would get their final seating when I closed the breach block..
With Rooster Jacket a lot of the bullets stuck in the case neck and the bullets wouldn't chamber..
Then I switched to a paste floor/furniture wax (Trewax) when using push thru type dies and bullet lube when using regular lube/size dies..
Problem disappeared..
Other benefits, quicker and less messy..

[nanuk]

...
I know you fellers up your way don't have them growing up there but there is always preparation H it will work too and it is a good lube.:bigsmyl2:

Lp.


Leadpot: I have read that PrepH will actually shrink the boolit some if used as a lube.

so far the only use I've found for it, is when you have some of those "Dang things shot so bad, I'da been as successful if I stuck them up my behind"

seems the shrinking/lubing properties are just the ticket for them thar kinda boolits

[Lead pot]

Ya Nanuk but you have to be really careful how much you use or it will put too much choke in the barrel too.

[2bizzy]

Thanks Nrut, I will give that a try on the sized 45-70 cases. I have had better luck with no sizing at all, (rounds slip fit but not snug) and then taper crimp to finish. Accuracy in the Sharps is very good, but I do see occasional evidence of un burnt powder.