Another good tip for newbies

[Blackwater]

Was going back and re-reading Elmer Keith's "Sixguns" today, and re-found it amazing how much one can pick up from his work and this book. His advice on casting and loading and powders, and pretty much anything else he wrote about STILL makes sense. In his time, he didn't have many of the powders or bullets we do today, but he really knew what he DID have to work with, and was masterful at relating that to any who might be interested in trying any of it. His words and advice on casting and loading and shooting are still first rate, and the only difficulty I can see is his use of the American English language is a bit coloquial at times, but it's still pretty easily understood, so that's not a problem.

And BTW, if ya' doubt anything ol' Elmer says, don't. Everybody who ever knew him will avow to his simple and direct honesty. It seriously hurt his feelings that some doubted his tale of shooting a wounded and running buck at 600 yds. with his 4" .44. Honesty for men of his type and era was a sacred thing, and he'd NEVER have stretched the truth an inch for the sake of a "good story." I wish more of our current writers were so scrupulous. If he gave a gun a report, you could rest assured it was what he REALLY thought, and that if anyone edited out any detrimental comments, they'd dang well hear about it form ol' Elmer, and PRONTO, too! If you've never known a man of this type, you've missed something very special.

So if you're learning casting, or any other aspect of shooting or reloading, you really NEED a copy of this book. It's money you'll NEVER regret spending, and you'll enjoy the book for many, many years, and continue to profit form it no matter what stage of development you're in at any given time. This may seem TOO much to be true, but I promise it's not. Just a word to the wise, and those who WANT to be.

[leftiye]

He once shot a deer twice at 500 plus yards. He was asked why he shot it twice. He said - so you would know that it was not a fluke.

[Blackwater]

Mostly, I just like his style, and the fact that his observations and advice are as solid as granite. Things HAVE progressed, but not nearly as far as the glossy ads would have us believe. The basics, and what newbies really need and want IS the basics, at least to start with, are FULLY covered in his chapters on bullets, reloading and shooting, and I can't think of a better place to start. Manuals sometimes tend to reinforce the more exacting aspects of reloading, but Keith's "down home" manner of presentation and explanation tends to make most any reader think, "Yeah! I could do THAT!" and there's really no substitute for that attitude. Today, in our litigious society, we CAN sometimes tend to overemphasize the liabilities of doing something that COULD conceivably hurt us, but Keith's simple and straightforward manner of presentation would, I think, help many who've become a bit skeptical of their abilities to deal with these matters overcome their hesitance, and explore the pursuit more fully and safely. He DOES, after all, caution the loader many times. He just expects people to LISTEN, rather than hammering it in. That, in my opinion, strikes a much more intelligent balance of all the applicable factors, and it's this balance, along with the stuff we learn as we progress, is what allows the more adventurous among us to innovate and expand our beloved hobby and pursuit. That ain't no small thing for a newbie! Just a FWIW post.

[goofyoldfart]

Blackwater, that is a very good post. His writing was easy to understand and he really knew his stuff. thanks for saying what needed to be said. God Bless to all and theirs.
Goofy aka Godfrey:D

[hydraulic]

Doc Carlson, Upper Missouri Trading Co., black powder editor for Gun Digest, is from Salmon, Idaho and so was Elmer Kieth. Doc knew him well and has a somewhat different take on the veracity of old Elmer.

[waksupi]

Doc Carlson, Upper Missouri Trading Co., black powder editor for Gun Digest, is from Salmon, Idaho and so was Elmer Kieth. Doc knew him well and has a somewhat different take on the veracity of old Elmer.

I first met Doc over 40 years ago. He is a bit opinionated, himself!

By the way, he has lived in Nebraska for decades! I know that is where he was from when I met him.

[olafhardt]

I won't get in an argument over it but when I have analyzed some of Keith's stuff I found it flawed. I also have problems with Whelen, Cooper, Ayoob, Venturino, and others. I am not going to be specific or try to defend my position.

[44man]

I won't get in an argument over it but when I have analyzed some of Keith's stuff I found it flawed. I also have problems with Whelen, Cooper, Ayoob, Venturino, and others. I am not going to be specific or try to defend my position.
My position too. But Elmer was the reason I was shooting the .44 to over 500 yards back in 56. I learned a lot since and a lot of printed matter WAS flawed and still is. One of the worst is Taffin. I would love to teach him how to load and shoot. He uses factory loads at 20 yards from a Ransom rest and has a younger guy shoot now since he never shot right and ruined his wrists.
Mike was a down home type until we had a tiff over how he could afford his guns and all the loading stuff.
Then one gun writer got guns to test with an option to buy at cost, never paid for a single one and kept them all. Why would anyone cheat those that support you?
Today, writers push products, good or bad. Back then truth was told, now read about something and the last page is a full size add. I would prefer Elmer was back. How about Waters or the real hunters like Jack O'Connor?
Just got the Rifleman and the stuff costs more then my first house. My first Ruger .44 cost me $96 and the S&W 29 was $140. Nothing shot better then the old Ruger flat top but I was lead astray by gun rags and have wasted too much.
I miss the old days with Elmer and George Leonard Herter.

[Blackwater]

Elmer always had his detractors, especially with regard to some of the things he reported doing with his guns, and in particular with his handguns. Most people won't believe anyone can do something unlesss THEY can do it themselves, which is simply agnosticism gone mad. However, if one spends as much of his life in the field, at the times and in the places ol' Elmer did, he'd find there's a LOT of stuff that happens, usually due to necessity or fluke occurances, that almost defies explanation. I never knew Elmer, but have known a few who were cast in very similar molds, and to a man, they've been the most scrupulously honest men I've ever known, and they expected the same from others. Like Elmer, they didn't care much if anyone didn't or wasn't able to believe a story they told, but they DID care when their honesty was questioned, and they'd defend themselves by referring to witnesses, but I've never seen or heard anyone checking with those witnesses. Funny how that works out, ain't it? I have done a few things that I seldom refer to because of not liking to be called a liar. I have a friend who has done MANY things that have caused folks to call him a liar too, and on a few occasions, have had stories about him told to support their contention of his liarhood, but I'd been there and seen the instance cited, and let them know it did in fact happen just as described. We live in an agnostic age, where folks tend to disbelieve a lot of things that are indeed True. Mostly, I think this is just because it's become fashionable to think everybody is "equal" in talent, and what one man can do, others, and almost anyone else ought to be able to do. This is without investing the time and thought and effort to become as good at the task in question as the old timer has done. Shoot often enough and in quantity enough, and strange, lucky and exceptional things will happen to YOU, too! Then I guess it'll be YOUR turn to be called a liar if you speak of it???

Elmer was opinionated, but it was due to his EXPERIENCE and his own personal trials and use that he got that way. We used to call that "educated," but in today's PC environment, we like to think anyone should be able to guess what's right and wrong and true or untrue at will. It's just never worked out that way in the real world. He became a controversial figure for his simple, direct honesty, and opinions formed from actual use in practical and necessary pursuits. When some think he was "bragging," he was actually just giving an uncut report of what happened. Men like Elmer DID have a certain amount of pride in their accomplishments, not the least of which was surviving under hard conditions and through perilous adventures, but he ALSO had gratitude for the simple opportunity to have been where he'd been and done what he'd done, and survived. He also had, and it can be clearly seen for those actually seeking the Truth about him rather than just exercising their agnosticism, the simple humility that any man who'd been through all the things he'd experienced. Tough times and tough situations always keep a man humble, and what some see as lack of humility is a simple recounting of what happened, though his coloquial use of an earlier manner of using the English language probably helped with that. He just grew up with and among the culture where that type lingo was used, and naturally melded himself into his own particular situation, that had changed little for the previous century, other than having a few "modern" conveniences, like good ctg. brass, good guns, electricity (in his adult years), and things like that. If you've never known anyone from that era and time and locale, it'd be pretty much impossible to believe someone like Elmer. If you have, and there are fewer and fewer of us left who have, you know. It's just not something to doubt in any way at all.

In many instances, he'd always report that YMMV, and it takes experimentation to find what works best for any given gun, etc., etc., but he'll NEVER be remembered for that. He usually just ASSUMED folks knew elementary things like that, and acted and wrote accordingly. The more "modern" we get, the more that assumption can be legitimately questioned, and the more controversial old timers like Elmer get bashed in print by those who
neither knew him, nor anyone like him, and who just can't MAKE themselves believe some of his writings, or find some of his recommendations don't suit as well as something else. C'est la' vie, I guess? We humans tend to think in a group-think mode these days, and crusty old individualists who simply tell the truths they've found or experienced are resented for being "different" from the herd. That's a dang shame, but it's what we "moderns" have come to do, nevertheless.

As to whether his advice is worthy of perusal and trial by newbies, though, it'd be awfully hard to find a better source of casting advice. Maybe not impossible, but his easy (if coloquial at times) manner DOES, as I originally said, tend to make the beginner or newbie think, "Yeah, I could do that," and THAT, brothers, is a very important part of getting folks into casting, and finally realizing the real potential of cast bullets, and I don't think anyone here can see that as a bad thing, can they? More technical info is available, but that's the fine points, and anyone who simply observes and pays attention to what happens when they do this or that, CAN learn themselves as they go along, and that I think was Elmer's original intent in the things he included in the book, "Sixguns." It was mostly intended as a good, thorough primer, not as a PhD level treatise, and taken as that, I can't think of another single source that'd do what all this book can, if we but pay attention to what he says, and try it, instead of decrying him from simple agnosticism. But since I'm not a "modern," and don't ever want or intend to be, I guess I'm just a little out of step with "current" thinking. I'm grateful for that, but of course, YMMV at will, if not in actual fact. Newbies who DO read it, AND heed it, will likely benefit from the experience. Isn't that what this whole forum is supposed to be all about???

[dsbock]

I used to have a link for a free PDF download of this and many other classic gun books.

Does anyone know if there is still such a place?

Thanks.

David

[Blackwater]

I think Wolfe publishing sells copies, but don't have info on PDF's.

[44man]

I had a friend in Ohio that told stories about hunting and everyone called him a fiction writer and liar. I started to hunt with him and for many years. We went back to work and he would tell the tales. He never, ever varied from what happened and I know because I was there. Sadly one of the best friends I had has passed but I will never forget him.
Elmer was like that, if he said it, he did it. We lost an honest and great man. Most of the best are gone to our detriment.
I have to thank the OP and others that feel the same. All we have left is to give a prayer. Back then it was truth and dedication, not profit. Now a gun rag is not worth a sit on the commode before it is done. Too bad the pages are not as good as an old Sears catalog!

[Blackwater]

Amen, 44! I quit subscribing to any of the glossy mags years ago. I just can't see paying for what mostly amounts to advertising for the advertisers in the mags. When Ross Seyfried got canned from one of the mags, I bought few subsequent issues, and ONLY if it contained an article I was particularly interested in. Seyfried said what he actually thought, and wouldn't compromise that for ANY reason. It's a danged shame that what we get fed today is a type of "group think" based on what people WANT to think so they're not challenged very hard, instead of good info that, while it'll challenge them, CAN, with experience and trial and effort in application, make them rise to heights of proficiency they'd never before expected they had the talent to rise to. We're homogenizing ourselves, and THAT is DANGEROUS! Look at the muslim terrorists. They take a gun and leave their fate up to Allah. They learn how to operate the gun and figure Allah will guide the bullets. In a fight, they jump from cover, fully exposing themselves and spraying a magazine full of ammo in the general direction of their adversary (our boys), while making loud and harsh noises and maybe cursing us, while one of our boys pops him and settles that little matter quickly. BIG difference, and the results speak for themselves, or at least they do for anyone who still has decent observational skills. Today, though, we too often and too typically ONLY look for what we WANT to see. The Good Book says, "Seek and ye shall find," but it didn't explain that you'll find whatever it is you're seeking, and if you go into a situation WANTING to find something, then you'll diddle about with the facts available until you come up with your pre-conceived notion. But what does a dumb redneck down in the swamps know? I just watch what happens, and try to figure it all out, and don't subscribe to any set of pre-judged results that I WANT to be true. Some of us are just out'a step with the rest of the world today. I'm comfortable with that, though. VERY comfortable. Ol' Elmer didn't have time, literally, for anything that didn't work, and work well. We could all benefit from that today, but sadly, we are in too big a hurry to bother with much real thinking or reflection. Dang shame about that, too.

[Mal Paso]

I think Wolfe publishing sells copies, but don't have info on PDF's.

I bought Sixguns and Sixgun Cartridges and Loads on Amazon so cheap I didn't have to think about it. Less than Half of what Wolfe charges.

Elmer wasn't perfect but I haven't seen one critic that came close to what Elmer accomplished.

[44man]

My life is trial and error, more error actually. I might make more mistakes then any one because I listen to others. I should know better since I have debunked a lot about guns.
Had air in my well water. I was told I was picking up dirt in the pump, keeping the valve from shutting. I replaced the pump, wire and line. Raised the pump 3 times before I was in the center of the water column. Still air! Blow the top off the toilet tank.
I made a test tool with a tire valve and gauge to put pressure in the line in the yard. Gauge dropped as soon as I removed the air pressure. I dug and found a broken connecter.
I spent too much money by listening to those that were wrong.
You know darn well I did not want to face the truth and use a shovel, easy way out. I knew it but avoided the facts.
Many today are doing what I did, easy way out. I am as guilty as anyone else.
I listened to those that said a big meplat is all you need to kill. same thing, it is NOT true. Failures drive me nuts so I did more work. TL is accurate and stops leading, NOT true so I tested every boolit lube on earth. You can shoot a real heavy boolit slow, NOT true. Twist does not mean anything in a revolver, NOT true.
It never ends but the old timers had a good insight after making mistakes. If you never make a mistake to learn from, you came from another planet.
Today it is always the easy way out. Ask a question and you can have 100 wrong answers so how do you pick, Darn it you must test for yourself.
When anyone asks something, they flow to the easy way even if wrong.
I am harsh from 77 years of failures. I remember my uncle with me on his shoulders going through a doorway, banging my head. I think I was one at the time.
I watched my father working on a car with no luck. I was about 5, Told him to do it this way and he cussed at me "WHAT DO YOU KNOW." He struggled until he did what I said and it worked. I already knew about a file that was full of shavings and he had one in his toolbox so I tapped it and broke it. Put it back and never said a word. Don't hit a file hard!
If you don't think early writers never had failures to learn from you are nuts. they deserve respect.
Today you need a $2500 scope to shoot deer. Not when a $50 Bushnell does the same. The last Rifleman was worth a fart on the porcelain fitting.

[Blackwater]

You really make me smile, 44man. It seems we have much in common. Maybe not all the same, but very similar. It's always good to communicate with a real kindred spirit. My grandkids, and even my son just can't make themselves believe some of the stories I have, but I don't waste my or their time with anything but the Truth. They just live in a very different world now, than the one you and I grew up in. Back then, we were outside, finding stuff to get into and play or "work" with. We learned some very practical and useful things from that, and we learned how to "sort it out" as the Brits used to say. Leo Fender used to make his guitars and amps by the simple "cut and try" method, and his designs are STILL the best, so much so that really knowledgeable and intensely passionate players pay very big bucks for old ones in great condition, or restored ones with the right size and value and type of caps and resistors. Cut and try DOES involve making mistakes, but it darn sure leads to really good results in the end, and it's pretty interesting and a great challenge along the way. Today, most want ready-made pat answers, and mostly just want to follow the leader, whoever and whatever that leader is, notwithstanding sometimes. I guess we're just relics of a bygone day? I'll take that. There's no learning like PERSONAL learning that's PROVEN itself, is there?

[DrCaveman]

Great thread, blackwater, great posts too. A few more paragraph breaks would be my only request ;)

I never had Sixguns to read growing up, i only learned about it after seeing reference to mr Keith on this site and others. Reading it lent a whole new attitude to my approach, much in the way you describe

Great book. If bullseye, unique, or 2400 were available in any continuous supply, Sixguns is about all the data one needs for loading 38 thru 44 mag.

Unfortunately, powder is in short supply so other references are needed for actual load data. Shucks on that. Furthermore, the world is full of liars whose main intention is to make a buck.

There are more people like this than ever before, by sheer numbers. They make their voices loud because they stand to make some free money from convincing someone else to spend their hard earned wages on a product they do not need. This occurs in SO many walks of life these days that it is, sadly, a fool who walks into a sales situation with the belief that the seller is being totally truthful

Bigger towns and cities are the worst. In any case, it makes people gun-shy and not wanting to be bamboozled by amazing claims. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

[44man]

Blackwater, I always love your posts.
Having a family and losing a job from a lay off is tough and back then we went looking for work or earning from side jobs. It brought great fear into our lives.
Today people don't care, just sign up and never need to work. Wife watched a real fat slob at the meat counter grabbing the best roasts and steaks, filled two carts with the best. Wife was behind her in check out, over $300 and she swiped a snap card.
Long ago I had a lot of TV problems and could not afford to get them fixed so I took a cheap course. Soon I was the repair man for all the neighborhood and even found TV's in my garage when I came home from work from over 100 miles away. I did the best job i could do and everyone said it looks better then when new. All setup after fixing a problem was not charged for and I worked cheap. It let me give my check from work to the wife and I had TV money for guns, etc. I always had over $300 in my wallet but it took many TV's to get it, not from one or two.
I found how the TV repairmen around were cheating people, it was unreal. I could not do that so I have pride to this day in my work. I charged $25 for a lightning strike when the TV shop was charging $79 for a fuse change and maybe a diode. So you see income was a trickle from a lot of work. The amount of friends I made can't be set to money.
I had to move and everyone around here that needs a mower fixed or whatever, I will go. I now have the best hunting ever in my life since I can go anywhere.
The lady down the road lets me bring any friends and last year her truck would not start. We came out of the woods and my friend Don and I worked on it to find it needed wires, spark plugs, rotor and cap. Plugs were frozen in and needed Kroil and working back and forth to get out. I installed new plugs with anti seize on them.
Same old thing, she was told plugs never needed changed. Her cost was parts!
Gunsmith work has always been a part and I fixed thousands, built custom rifles, checkered stocks and made long rifles, carved and engraved, never over charged. I find stuff and post to make an enemy or a detractor, fine, I no longer care but it hurts to have an enemy.
I say some bad things but will apologize. I am thought as gruff sometimes, but maybe I earned it. I might be more like Elmer and Herter then anyone. I will never lie or cheat.
Lessons learned by work and mistakes are life, better then getting handed all you want free. Darn I hate that fat slob! You should see her fat kids, fat on my taxes.
Ever see the Wallmartions pictures?

[Blackwater]

Again, 44man, you make me smile. I understand completely. We're pretty similar in a lot of ways. I too can be rather "abrupt" according to some today, but as you say, I came by it honestly. I've never understood how the PC folks today think they're ever going to learn much when they say and act how they THINK others expect them to, rather than how they REALLY think and want to act? When people differ, it's best to acknowledege it and work things out, even if it's just to agree to disagree. "Group think" has NEVER worked out well, but that seems to be how most folks think and act today. Those who actually get "out there" and DO things tend to be rather quiet, unless they really have something of value to say, but many decry their straying from the herd nowadays, which is no skin off'a my nose, since I've no desire to EVER subscribe to PCness. I generally try to just stay quiet, since making a fuss rarely changes anything or anyone's mind. You just can't teach anyone who doesn't WANT to learn, or who thinks they already have all the answers. I surely don't, but I KNOW I don't. I DO have a body of info that's as concrete for me as I could ever want, but there are FAR too many things in this life for anyone to ever know all that's worth knowing. I keep trying to expand my knowledge, and will do so until I die. It's such a vast universe, and so very much to learn in it. If THAT didn't keep a man humble, what could? It's a lot like scientists: The more they learn, the more questions they have IF they're worth their salt. The LESS they know, the more opinionated they tend to be, and the more loudly they proclaim their "opinions." The only thing I really resent about today's "rules" of etiquette and common parlance is when someone calls me a liar when they clearly have no idea what is involved in the subject at hand. And it's not uncommon at all now. I think this might well be a very large portion of the REASON our nation is falling to its lowest ebb ever, with little to suggest a turnaround in the forseeable future? But we've already digressed from the purpose of this thread and the board, so I guess we ought to get back to "business" now? And BTW, I love your posts, too. They always make sense, and add to our body of knowledge here, and I think I see why now.

[1Shirt]

Have known Doc for many years, a good man. Saw Elmer at an NRA convention in DC many years back. As far as I am concerned, If Elmer said he could do it, I take it as fact.
1Shirt!

[cephas53]

I used to have a link for a free PDF download of this and many other classic gun books.

Does anyone know if there is still such a place?

Thanks.

David

Here's one to some of his articles.
http://elmerkeithshoot.org/GA/

[TXGunNut]

Haven't gotten my hands on "Sixguns" yet but "Hell, I Was There" convinced me he was a man I could trust. I don't agree with some of his ideas but can assure you there are very few folks who loaded, shot and hunted as much as he did. Yes, he blew up a few ( ;-) ) guns, stepped on a few ( ;-) ) toes and didn't suffer fools gladly. He also enjoyed his Scotch and cigars, on occasion I do as well.

[olafhardt]

I cannot agree with this beatifaction of ol Elmer. The internet and forums like this one have led me to the conclusion that a quality gun magazine stores and feeds ammo.

[Blackwater]

I don't think there's any beatification going on. Just simply an acknowledgement of a man of substance who contributed very significantly to our beloved sport. I can think of nobody who's ever promoted casting their own bullets as much or as effectively as Elmer. Most people today have never known a man like Elmer, and therefore just don't know how to take him, and often impute things into his stories that he never intended to be put into them. It's just another case of two separate and distinct cultures failing to understand each other. Moderns have never faced the often rather brutal realities Elmer did, nor have they thought through to the end the consequences of their actions or inaction in the circumstances Elmer and many like him faced. Therefore, there's no BASIS for understanding Elmer, and the result is that people just simply doubt his veracity and/or judgment. In a world where we're all "supposed" to be just alike and hold hands and agree and sing "Cum bay yah," guys who are honestly rugged individualists just aren't regarded as "normal," and in such worlds, anyone who isn't "normal" is regarded as daft, untrustworthy and very, very strange. But he wasn't. He was just a simple, hard-working, honest man who knew he had to have a moral and ethical code to survive, and to help others survive, and he just very simply did just that, no matter WHAT befell him .... and there was always PLENTY to befall him in that time and place.

It's always seemed to me that those who think like this are severely limiting their own abilities to understand and deal with the world around them, and the people in it. That's a terrible price to pay just so we can think things are simpler and easier than they really are in this "veil of tears." But what do us rednecks down in the swamp know anyway? We've just known many people cut from the same mould Elmer was, and thus have the first-hand knowledge of what those people are like, and why they're that way, and how they got that way. My eldest uncle was a for-real cowboy in Fl. back when Fl. had more REAL cowboys than Texas. The last time I hunted with him, he was 81 and never missed a shot the whole day on a dove field. He was 79 on his last roundup, ricing his old buckskin horse through the palmettos, brush, trees, spider webs and everything else that was out there, and doing it at full tilt very much of the time. Those Fl. cattle were wild, especially since his breeding bull was a Brahma.

Many people don't LIKE admitting there are still people like that around. It tends to bring questions to their own front door steps, and that's not a "comfortable" proposition for us moderns, so .... they poo poo what they just don't understand or want to accept. A rather contrived solution to a telling problem. No wonder the nation keeps sliding into the dumper!

[lightload]

Elmer graduated from the school of hard knocks. He was an accomplished experimenter, shooter, hunter, and writer who also was a good shot with handgun, rifle, and shotgun. Elmer was an expert field shooter with revolver and rifle and had the ability to point, aim, fire and hit his target. My age is 67, and I started reading his work since about 1962. I don't recall his writings between 1925 and 1965 being particularly controversial. He discussed revolver shooting and reloading and rifle shooting and reloading. Few argued with him unless it was those from the small bullet high velocity school of thought. Many forget that his game was not bulls-eye target shooting or bench rest rifle shooting or skeet shooting. From having carried and fired handguns and rifles almost on a daily basis over a life time and from having conducted trial and error firearms related research for decades, Elmer became a highly informed ballistician, reloader, shooter, and writer who was also an expert hunter. And he was a cowboy.

[TXGunNut]

I cannot agree with this beatifaction of ol Elmer. The internet and forums like this one have led me to the conclusion that a quality gun magazine stores and feeds ammo.


You're not dissing Uncle Elmer are you? ;-) Quite honestly I doubt he'd mind. He's been there, done that and did a more than passable job of telling us about it so that we could learn from his experiences. Yes, he has his detractors. Had them while he was around too and he didn't let them bother him much. I'll put his accomplishments up against any of them.

[Butchman205]

What I've learned from Elmer's writings...is they need to be read "several" times to get all that he is saying. He laid it out flat...and if you cared to take his advice, you can probably pick up a thing or two that he was referring to, as your knowledge on the matter increased. Quite different than the stump preacher type salesmen which now grace the "resource" literature. Like you guys have said several times...they pump up the folks that are paying them to "review" whatever they're discussing.

Swapping gears....I have a 12-yr-old son. We don't play with "I promise". If I say "I promise"...it means I'll answer as honestly as I possibly can.
If he says "I promise"...it is the highest degree of truthfulness he can speak. We simply do not play with the word "promise"...it means we are serious.

He has seen firsthand how his friends lie, and think nothing of it. He has seen how his friends' parents lie to their kids, and think nothing of it.

I also have had to teach him that just because someone asks you a question, you aren't obligated to answer them...because dishonest folks will use your honesty against you.

Going back to Elmer...I think he was an honest guy when it came to his "reviews" or opinions on a matter. Was he perfectly right every time? Nope. But I think he shot a LOT straighter than most of the so called experts in today's world of experts with opinions for rent or hire.

Lead is still lead. Holes are still holes. I think his opinions are still worth reading.

[Blackwater]

Yes, Butchman, you're right. Most of us older types grew up reading Elmer, and even if we didn't believe him all the time at first, time usually proved him right. We'd just not understood properly at first. And this is a very fine point, and mostly just semantics, but his "opinions" were really more his "experience" than just opinions. He was a lot like Joe Friday, if anyone remembers him, in that he was only interested in the facts. All else was periphery and didn't matter much to him.

The reason I posted this originally is because he was ALWAYS willing to help ANY newbie, and was pretty darned good at it, and most especially at getting the newbie to understand that this wasn't brain surgery, and can be done by just about anybody IF they'll just pay attention, observe, think about what they see, and adjust accordingly. Just the plain, simple old scientific method: identify the problem, observe & gather data, formulate a hypothesis, test, observe results and come to a conclusion, and retest to test the veracity of the conclusion. So simple, even I can do it!!! Now THAT, boys, is SIMPLE!

[TXGunNut]

I've had the pleasure of visiting with a few gunwriters; one over the period of several years, one over the period of several days and a couple in a bar in Des Moines one night. (Don't ask, there were a couple other notables there and I tried to hang with them long enough to buy a round. I failed. ;-)) To a man they are decent folks, but they have a few gripes that seem almost universal. First, they dislike "journalistic whores". 'Nuff said. Second, they are assigned stories and products to review knowing full well what big ad will be placed very near their story when it's published. Sometimes that's a good thing; some new products need a bit of explanation and review. I think most gunwriters do a good job of doing that.
Quite honestly if the mainstream gunrags wrote about what members of this forum wanted to read or about the guns they were really interested the magazine would be out of business in less than a year. Don't be too hard on gunwriters, they're just trying to make a living writing about something they truly enjoy.

[olafhardt]

TXGN, of course I am dissing Saint Elmer. Butchman, I think you have a lot to learn about growing boys. I am glad you are interested enough to talk to him and I sincerely hope you also listen. Saint Elmer was on the same level as todays writers. He did have his differences but just wasn't that good.
I think we might force gunwriters to be the way they are. We want several good articles a month and they want the money. We make graven images of them and the advertisers facilitate our donations. Their preists try to recruit novices with sermons of advice to noobs.

[waksupi]

When I see someone make posts with as much first hand experience as Elmer, I will start considering their comments relevant. Very few meet the standard. Very few.

[Blackwater]

Quoting Olaf: "Saint Elmer was on the same level as todays writers. He did have his differences but just wasn't that good."

I don't think I quite understand what you mean there. No biggie, since I'm used to dissent, but gun writers like Elmer DID have significantly more leeway from their editors than most gun writers do today. That was just because readers back then really WANTED to read Elmer's articles, because they TRUSTED him and his words. Elmer DID get censored occasionally, but not nearly as often as he'd be censored today. Bank on it. Even then, editors didn't relish having to defend what Elmer might write to a given advertiser, and I'm sure a few advertisers pulled their ads over an article or two. However, the editor knew that the rag would earn more money by carrying Elmer's articles than it would lose in ads lost due to his content. Simple economics. Readers liked Elmer because they could trust him and his word. He was unique, even in his day, due to his real world experience, and though he'd get censored now and then, he never retracted a word he wrote. Things like that is what EARNED him respect among his readers. They simply appreciated the "straight dope," and anyone who gave it to them.


We're just a different culture today, and we value "opinions" equally, whether they merit such treatment or not. This is just a fact, whether anyone wants to admit it or not. There are few gun writers today who stand out enough to be able to survive as writers and write like Keith did. The liberalization (some would say "elimination") of standards today most definitely HAS changed our discourse, and what is ALLOWED to be put into magazines. Fear of lawsuits from advertisers may occasionally be a part of this. Even if they lost the suit, it'd cost plenty just to defend against it, and most corporations have more money for that than most periodicals. Big business, trial lawyers and big gov't controls more and more of what we all do today than when I was growing up. It's a plain and simple fact. Men in any profession, and probably particularly in writing, can only do what they're ALLOWED to do, and this isn't necessarily the fault of the writers, but the system within which they have to work. In this regard, I think TXGN has a point, and I'll concede it gladly. I do still buy a glossy mag now and then, and likely as not, it'll be due to an article by John Barsness or Brian Pearce. Occasionally others, but those are probably my two most trusted writers today.

I used to read Jeff Cooper, and though I wasn't always in agreement with him on every detail, he was always worth reading. After all, if we don't read things we don't necessarily agree with, how in heck are we to broaden our horizons??? I just get tired of all the praise given new guns that are just plain ugly, don't balance or handle well, and as someone pointed out, not as accurate as I want. If it's blocky, the articles concentrate on price or some features that are supposed to make up for its ungainly appearance and long trigger reach, or other more practical and useful factors. I just can't see paying to read the ads, and articles that read like ads. Sue me. We all have opinions, but after decades of what I deem to be a decline in the quality of the info in the glossies, I just almost always pass on them. Many younger readers just don't know what's been lost because they simply weren't around back when. That's natural, and no fault of their own. How could they realize what they don't know?

For illustration, when's the last time you read an article on a gun evaluation where it was soundly criticized? I think I can rest my case there. A few will point out some "niggles" here and there, but overall, mainly they always sing the praises of whatever product they are assigned to evaluate. Some fine guns HAVE been brought out since the Colt SAA and the 1911, to be SURE, but when the lowest quality gun receives close to the same type review that the very best do, I think I can safely say that SOMETHING is amiss somewhere, can't I?

Again, this is no real biggie, and I'm glad there are those who still read them. The mags DO play an important part in helping newbies learn. My only gripe is that I miss reading them for their content. I really do. The whole world seems to be gravitating increasingly toward uniformity in all pursuits and all results. Funny, but the world has NEVER in all its history been very uniform in any way at all, really, but that doesn't seem to deter us "moderns" from adopting that philosophy. Some of us just can't and won't ever find that realistic or acceptable. C'est la' vie. Life is what it is, and thinking of it differently than what it is doesn't change anything. It just further muddles our already simple minds. Humble people, who can still admit their weaknesses and mistakes, can accept Truth, which sometimes DOES fool us. Proud people, like us "moderns," have trouble with that. Very simple. Just a common, ordinary fact. C'est la' vie.

[olafhardt]

When I see someone make posts with as much first hand experience as Elmer, I will start considering their comments relevant. Very few meet the standard. Very few.
So no man is qualified to be an OB/GYN? Saint Elmer was a feminist?

[Blackwater]

Agnosticism seems to have no real cure, and facts are commonly denied, disrespected and decried, so believe what you will. Just know that simple facts have a way of never going away, and they always have to be dealt with eventually, in one manner or another. You seem to wish to poke fun at those who have the experience of knowing men very much like Elmer. That's your privilege, always, but it also has a price when we let our agnosticism rule our better judgment. You've no doubt seen Jerry Miculek and others do things that none of us here can do. Do you doubt what you see there, too???

[olafhardt]

BW you are welcome to the last word or judging from your past the last 1000 words so get your little fingers busy in service to Saint Elmer. I am unsuscribing to your post.

[Blackwater]

Well, Olaf, you post poking fun at me. What did you expect? For me to tuck tail and run???? If you can't defend your own words, then it's probably not a bad idea to just go away from this post if you have no interest in it, or can't benefit from any of the info in it. Don't waste your time on stuff you deem a lie. I wouldn't.

[mongoose33]

I'm a mod on another site; if I were one on this site, I'd lock this thread.

[gon2shoot]

I never got to shoot with Elmer, but was blessed to know some like him who didn't get the press he got. Knew a few who shot with the old greats and trusted every word they said; because they showed me they could do it!
It's easy to make light of another mans accomplishments if you can't do it.
just sayin.

[Three44s]

One day, I shot a ground squirrel @ 100 yds with a K22 Smith ....... no witnesses ........ whether anyone believes me or not.

That shot came after reading Keith's books "Sixguns" and "Hell I Was There" and after much practice.

It was not even a shot I was planning on .......... it just presented itself.

Here is what Keith wrote on long shots:

"Such long shots are accidents ....... but the more you practice ......... the more such accidents happen".

Mindset, work and equipment ........ it happens ........ and I don't doubt for one minute that Keith did the work he said he did.

Whether anyone else believes that makes not one wit to me.

I believe him because I have seen similar things happen. If I can drop a standing grey digger at a 100 ....... I have little doubt that a shooter of his quality can drill a deer at 500 or 600.

Three 44s

[RogerDat]

If someone knows more than I do on a subject or can do something better than I do picking their brains just makes sense. The stuff I read that I already know does not teach me much. The stuff I have to read a few times and study is when I'm learning.

Elmer knew more than I do so I read his stuff, I also ask questions here. I get lots of different suggestions. As someone pointed out people come from different perspectives, some very different than my own or those making different suggestions. My job is to sift through it all and try what seems most promising. My ability to determine the most promising is influenced by whatever knowledge, or experience I already have.

Sometimes it seems counter intuitive, softer lead for less leading, or less velocity for increased accuracy. When multiple people offer the same advice based on experience it is silly to ignore it. Elmer and other leading figures tried a lot of things, shared what they learned which influenced what many members have tried themselves. These members add their experiences which either confirm information from other sources or highlight an exception.

Sainthood? No but respect for those that have been there and done that seems appropriate. New technologies or techniques do arise and it is silly to ignore them. Lots of those get a great deal of hype, they will revolutionize whatever. Lot of them don't work out, some do. The parasail style parachute was a huge innovation, the skills and techniques for getting the most out of it are different than what came before. On the other hand have you ever seen the delta shaped parasail parachute? Probably not, things were an innovative and incredibly maneuverable but had a bad habit of not opening. Innovations in casting and shooting are the same, the stuff that works will persist, that which does not will fall by the wayside, don't matter what the magazine writers say. If it don't work people won't continue to use it.

Some casters only buy foundry metal, others like me use scrap. If either one did not work people would not do it. Different approaches sometimes suit different people. But bottom line is always going to be does it work. Powder measure that blows up guns will not see continued sales and use. Anyone bought an orange press lately? If Elmer wrote it I'll read it, think on it, read it again. If it helps me do something great, if not maybe it helps someone else solve a problem.

[Blackwater]

Mongoose, your post is respected and understood, as this "house" belongs to others and not us posters, and it's a given that the owners of the house get to establish and if necessary, enforce those rules. If I may respectfully do so, though, please allow me to make a suggestion. While we live in a world where any sort of spat is frowned on, that philosophy doesn't seem to be working very well anywhere it's being enforced strictly. The reason is simple: If people are not allowed to argue, so long as it's within the approximate bounds of rationality, to the conclusion of the matter, or until they just get tired of arguing and agree to disagree (which is the most usual end to these matters) they generate grudges that last and last and last, thereby resulting in the very thing that strict enforcement of decorum seeks to avoid. It's not my decision to make, of course, but I'm talking about a principle here, not just an idea, and it's reflected in most of our human behavior. If you've ever observed unruly kids kept mum by overly strict parents, you'll note that when free of those parents, they get to be even worse than they normally would have been.

"Modern" discourse seems mostly to be governed by the philosophy of "political correctness," which dictates that disagreements NOT be dealt with, but avoided. Thereby, it actually prevents any settling of any contentions matters .... and there are ALWAYS contentious matters that need to and ought to be settled. How else can mankind learn except by following any discourse to its final, logical and inevitable end? Just makes plain old common sense, but of course, it's not PC as we've been "trained" to think.

Also, the act of casting bullets itself inherently contains a quite natural philosophy of self-help, simple intrigue, and technical sophistication, and the use of our beloved cast projectiles inherently encompasses the moral, ethical and spiritual use thereof, so the field is a LOT broader in reality than most of us commonly consciously realize. If given our reins to work things out, I think all of us here will rein in at an appropriate point. Passions may arise from time to time, and I'm as subject to that as anyone, due to my old Scots ancestry and the DNA inherent in that descent. it's just life, and to control it TOO sharply and strictly may yield more problems than it solves.

You have a VERY difficult job and responsibility, and one that I'd hate to have myself, but if any poster, myself included, posts something grossly inordinate, I'm glad you're here to keep the most outlandish and offensive stuff out. VERY glad. However, if it's just a little tiff incidental to a discussion, I can't see much real harm in letting it progress toward a conclusion if it's not TOO outlandish or bothersome.

That's just my take, but as I said, this isn't "my house," so I don't make the rules. I know if I was a moderator, I'd appreciate some thoughtful input so I didn't become a tyrant of sorts, and I have enough faith in you and the other mods to believe you feel at least somewhat similarly. Hope this is taken in the spirit it's sent, since it is in NO way meant to disparage your judgment or authority or rightfulness to same. Just a FWIW of sorts. Thanks for listening, and hope I never offend. When challenged I WILL respond, but I always try hard to make it as agreeable as I can. Again, thanks for just listening.

[blackthorn]

Well said Blackwater!!! As for Mongoose, all I will say is I am thankful he/she is not a moderator on this forum!!! One of the great advantages of being a member of this forum is the open discussion that is allowed to take place. If/when someone gets out of line here, the issue is dealt with in accordance with our site rules. "Other" forums lose a lot by being "lock Happy". Oh well---their loss!