577-.450 Martini Henry

[BLTsandwedge]

This is strange. My brother has a Martini-Henry in the abovementioned cambering. By the proof/cartouche markings, we know it circulated around the Near East in the 1880s. We fired it a few days ago. We used Kynoch rounds from 1949- they were loaded with 480g paper patched solid lead round nose projectiles. It was a kick in the butt!

The odd thing (other than my brother) is that these rounds had a severe delay in firing- as in almost a full second. Each fired, but not after a delay far worse than what I've ever experienced with a flinter (but then again I've always tuned my flintlocks to fire just about as quickly as any cap gun).

What could cause such a massive delay? They all fired.

Thanks in advance......

[Idz]

Old ammunition probably stored under poor conditions. I load my own MH ammo with a 405 gr soft lead and about 70 gr of 1Fg, a nice mild load. I know my shoulder would object to full power loads and don't trust a 140 year gun with full power.

[BLTsandwedge]

Old ammunition probably stored under poor conditions. I load my own MH ammo with a 405 gr soft lead and about 70 gr of 1Fg, a nice mild load. I know my shoulder would object to full power loads and don't trust a 140 year gun with full power.

Bonus points- thank you! But how-why would a priming compound (or original cordite loading?) fire- but simply take a month to ignite? I can hear the pin strike...and still wait...but each fires as sure as dawn.

[JeffinNZ]

I'm surprised ammo was still made even in 1949. How's his follow through. :-)

Those MHs are as brutal at the back as they at the front. Imagine the average sized (small) British serviceman using that beast.

[Green Lizzard]

hey sandwedge, a few years ago i pulled down some old cordite 303 click bangs to reuse the bullets, after removing the cordite sticks i fired some of them(primer only) and they didnt even pop, it sounded like far off bacon frying just a faint sizzle. i still have a whole wooden case of them

[Frank V]

I'd say extreem age & poor storage.
Boy one second hang fire would get your attention!
What kind of accuracy did you get?

[pworley1]

I would agree with the majority of those posting that poor storage is the most likely cause.

[zuke]

But at least they did go off!
Too bad their berdan primed.

[BLTsandwedge]

I'd say extreem age & poor storage.
Boy one second hang fire would get your attention!
What kind of accuracy did you get?

As you'd expect- nada!

[BLTsandwedge]

But at least they did go off!
Too bad their berdan primed.

Especially at $4 per round! I do know there are cases available- I'm really interested in what this rifle can produce. BP loads aren't much more vigorous than .45-70 but the history on this rifle fascinates me. The loaded cartridges look like they'd be much more powerful, but they is what they is..............

[zuke]

I made mine from 24 Magtech brass

[Frank V]

Berdan can be dealt with, RCBS used to sell a berdan decapper & there are some sources of berdan primers.
I'd take a spent boxer primer, see if it'll fit in the berdan pocket (I found they would years ago in the old Blazer aluminum .45 Auto cases) if they do you could remove the intergal anvil & use boxer primers???
There may be a source of new Boxer primed cases????
Heck a cartridge duplicating the .45-70 is duplicating a pretty decent ctg.
I'm staying tuned to follow this thread.

[Mauser48]

Ive heard that this is a very common problem with this ammo not sure why though.

[BLTsandwedge]

Ive heard that this is a very common problem with this ammo not sure why though.

'Zacly. A light-anywhere match will burn as quickly. What, in that chemical reaction, would allow the (old) priming compound to ignite- but still burn so slowly as to take almost a second to ignite the powder charge inside a closed system? To shoot one of these things is an exercise in the bizarre. The recoil is enough to cause a significant flinch. If you gotta wait almost a second for it to fire- the expectation is that it won't fire but it does.

I will reload because a) they're ridiculously expensive and b) I'd like to see what performance the rifle is capable of. My first thought is 2Fg but I'm sure IMR 4198 is a good smokeless candidate. And yep, there are ways around berdan priming but there are also a handful of brass/die manufacturers that'll either produce the finished case or make sizing dies to work with .577 basic cases. All are expensive.....but in my mind the history is worth it.

[Von Gruff]

I load mine with 20 gr Green dot for 1150fps and very good accuracy at 50 yds here but I have stretched it out a bit and it seems linear for accuracy as long as my eyes to the right thing with the sights.. Magtech brass I formed for my cases and I lapped out a Lee 450gn mould and pp the bullet to get to .468. Like you, the history of these old rifles is fascinating and they are a hoot to shoot. I have a carbine in 303 as well.

http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv39/VonGruff/577-450%20Martini%20Henry/Photo0968_zps6f3e3377.jpg (http://s667.photobucket.com/user/VonGruff/media/577-450%20Martini%20Henry/Photo0968_zps6f3e3377.jpg.html)

[zuke]

I have 303,8mm and 8x56R ammo that's all pre WWII and there's no hangfire. 303 pre WWI is a little hit and miss

[Blackwater]

I have two friends who shoot the .577/.450, but only one reloads his. He also uses the Mag Tec 24 ga. brass. At @ $1 round, it's the cheapest alternative out there, but brass life seems to be good. He actually "sizes" his by driving them into his chamber with a large dia. wooden dowel, but he's not an avid reloader, and just wants to make up something that'll go bang. He's actually had passable results, though, which surprised me. I guess it's all in just how you swing the hammer, and how squarely you hold the dowel??? IIRC, he used lard or Crisco for lube, and real black powder, as the gun was originally designed for. He's played with the idea of trying it on deer, but he's not much of a hunter, either, and hasn't pulled the trigger on that one yet. He's retired now, though, so it COULD happen. I'm sure if he hits one right, it'll be curtains for the deer, though. He really needs to practice more with it, but he also doesn't like the recoil with that steel butt plate. Very neat old rifles.

[Von Gruff]

Once I formed my brass from the Magtech 24 g shot shells and fireformed them I use the 480 Ruger dies with a spacer to restrict depth and just neck size the case. It is about perfect for the .468dia bullet

[Frank V]

Wow I've heard of several different sizing methods, but think this is the first time I've heard of using the chamber.
At least it'd be sized to his chamber!:lol:

I have actually shot light cast bullet loads in the .45-70 without resizing at all. I'd let the chamber seat the bullet which after a firing was a light push into the case. Wouldn't work if you wanted to carry extra ammo though.

[zuke]

Once I formed my brass from the Magtech 24 g shot shells and fireformed them I use the 480 Ruger dies with a spacer to restrict depth and just neck size the case. It is about perfect for the .468dia bullet

What are you using for a spacer?

[Von Gruff]

Just a length of copper tube I slip over the case as I put it in the shell holder so it bumps against the base of the die to set the depth of sizing on the neck.

[zuke]

Thank you

[MtGun44]

This is typical of my experience with British priming compounds.
Compared to American ammo, Brit ammo has very short lived priming.

I have fired lots and lots of 50-90 year old American ammo that shot
absolutely normally and had good accuracy. I have several cases
of various kinds of Brit and Brit colony ammo, either dead or hangfire.

I cannot prove that it isn't storage, but why is it that I have never
found it in American ammo? I had a large quantity of UMC 7x57
ammo and it was wonderful stuff, even though 1902 mfg date on
the boxes. Good bit of European ammo, Belgian, Portugese and German
and it all goes bang, even when 50-80 years old, but I have given up
even buying old British or colonies surplus ammo, not worth the
trouble. My '30s Carcano ammo is starting to have failing priming, too,
with hangfires of about one tenth of a second or so, and a few that
are dead, so not only Brit stuff. Somehow I haven't had this issue
with any old US ammo, regardless of age. Must be some signficant
difference in chemistry in the priming.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I have 303,8mm and 8x56R ammo that's all pre WWII and there's no hangfire. 303 pre WWI is a little hit and miss

The pre-WW2 ammunition you mention would be chlorate-prime, corrosive but respond well to storage. I agree that poor storage was probably responsible, but the primers could have been early non-corrosive ones, which often deteriorated easily, or made for black powder. The latter might ignite any smokless powder badly, but cordite more than most.

Powder to powder ignition obviously took place, and if it was smokeless on feeble compensation, at that price, was that the recoil could have been worse if it wasn't. It might be a good thing you weren't trying rapid fire, and ejecting as soon as you fired. An unchambered round doesn't burst with great vigour, but a lot more than you would want just in front of your face.

[zuke]

Just a length of copper tube I slip over the case as I put it in the shell holder so it bumps against the base of the die to set the depth of sizing on the neck.

I'll have to go to the scrap yard to buy a chunk of copper pipe. What dia. is it?

[Von Gruff]

It is 3/4 ID and 1.662 long. I have squashed the top in by about an 1/8 so it contacts the base of the die rather than having the base of the die start to enter the tube because of the radius on the bottom of the die

[zuke]

It is 3/4 ID and 1.662 long. I have squashed the top in by about an 1/8 so it contacts the base of the die rather than having the base of the die start to enter the tube because of the radius on the bottom of the die

Thank You