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Blackwater
04-30-2015, 06:26 PM
This has been discussed occasionally for years, but I though a newer update on the subject might be in order here and now.

Who uses the ultra slow burners like WCC-870, et al, with or without "priming charges" of very small amounts of faster burning powders against the primer? What are your observations with regard to accuracy, velocity, unburned powder in the bore, and anything else you care to note or opine on. With these powders being available and cheap, they're becoming an attractive alternative to me, but I've never tried them.

Thought others may be considering same, and that this might help some of us shoot more economically as well as broaden our horizons a bit? One old friend who was an avid cast shooter doted on these type loads. I just never got my round tuit to try them. What can you guys report?

MT Chambers
04-30-2015, 06:29 PM
I would be more concerned with detonation, using small charges of slow burning powders, powders like Varget and 4895 are good for me.

gloob
04-30-2015, 06:44 PM
^ These aren't usually small charges. Using way slow powders with faster priming charges, you are usually loading compressed with jacketed loads. With cast loads, I suppose you might have some room leftover.

You have to take charge weight into consideration. If the powder costs 50% less, but you're using 30% more, it isn't really saving you much, and at the cost of duplex loading and such.

If you want cheap plinking, small charges of pistol powder are another thing to consider. In some calibers you are only losing a few hundred feet per second from top end cast loads, anyhow.

This is a case of cast rifles loads being very flexible. If you have it (an oddball powder), you can use it. But I wouldn't go out of my way to go get it, unless the cost is very attractive. When I read how other folks are doing this or that, such as what you're talking about, the first thing I do is go out and see how much that surplus powder costs. Well, if I tried to do what they're doing, it would cost me more. They are doing it because they bought that powder in the 60's for a dollar a pound, lol.

MT Gianni
04-30-2015, 06:50 PM
I use WC 860 and 872 with out fillers in 06 cases filled to compression.

Hamish
04-30-2015, 07:04 PM
This morning shot .30 Badger with WC870 over Unique with cast, 870 in .243 with jacketed. 175 gr cast in 8mm, 200 gr cast in the ought six. Others as time goes on,,,

Was actually impressed with it in the little Badger, will chrono next time.

There is a large amount of information in Castpics.

gloob
04-30-2015, 07:08 PM
Jacketed or cast? And what's the charge weight of a compressed load?

I see 860 is avail at Bartlett's for $50-56 per 8 lb keg. Darn that IS cheap, now that rifle powders cost almost three times as much.

But I still bet you're gonna be able to reach max cast velocities with SR4759 (or other magnum pistol or fast rifle powders) at something close to half the charge weight or less in most calibers. And shooting "the load" of 13 grains of Promo at 100 per keg is going to cheaper, yet.

Blackwater
04-30-2015, 07:24 PM
With the ultra slow burners, you fill the case, ordinarily, but pressures are still low enough that some use very small charges of fast burning powders to get ignition more consistent. The theory of doing this is that a slow, more comparatively gradual acceleration tends to allow more velocity, less ledding, less stress and challenge to your lube, and often excellent accuracy. Part of the theory says that the slower acceleration lets the bullet correct and adjust its alignment during its trip down the bore a little better. Sounds enticing, but not all theories prove out, but those that have played with these powders have come up with some mighty impressive loads. I'm considering getting some to try. If it doesn't work out, I'm sure I can sell it off to some of the guys shooting the largely overbored ctgs, so there's not really much risk involved. Just was curious who's doing this, and what their results are nowadays.

Bjornb
04-30-2015, 07:41 PM
Look in Special Projects, I'm using WC867 in the 30 XCB rifle to get velocities in the 2200-2400 fps range with good accuracy. I have not seen the need for boosters or other duplex methods.

Nobade
04-30-2015, 08:15 PM
As a bonus, you can often get quite high velocities with good accuracy without using gaschecks. The slow ball powder seems to act as a very good sealer and allows the bullet to enter the bore undamaged.

-Nobade

Bjornb
04-30-2015, 09:07 PM
As a bonus, you can often get quite high velocities with good accuracy without using gaschecks. The slow ball powder seems to act as a very good sealer and allows the bullet to enter the bore undamaged.

-Nobade

That's a cool tip Nobade. I'm getting ready to start casting frnkeore's new ELCO bullets, and my NOE mould is a 2 gc 2pb. I'll be trying that out. Thanks.

Shiloh
05-02-2015, 10:11 AM
Other than the large magnum type cases, can you get enough powder in a .30-06 type case for consistent performance?

Shiloh

Blackwater
05-02-2015, 11:42 AM
IIRC (always an iffy proposition given my CRS disease), I think I've seen its use in cases as small as the .30/30. Can't recall if a priming charge was used, though. Was just curious about who is using this type loads now, and what their results have been. Accuracy has usually been reported as very good, and often stellar. Thus my interest.

badbob454
05-02-2015, 11:55 AM
i have found with wc 860 that a 2-3 grain kicker is required to get the burn going for straight walled cases like the 45/70 and no powder residue left over .. without the kicker my barrel was dotted with unburned kernels of powder , now in bottleneck cartridges i hear it shoots clean with a heavy boolit.

alamogunr
05-02-2015, 12:05 PM
I've got an accumulation of information on using super slow powders that I gathered with the intention of trying it. Haven't done so yet. I really need to since I have a lot of WC860 that I bought for less than $50/8#.

I can't add to the information since I don't have any experience but will welcome any and all postings of information by those that do have experience.

Bjornb
05-02-2015, 12:55 PM
Other than the large magnum type cases, can you get enough powder in a .30-06 type case for consistent performance?

Shiloh

Shiloh,
with 53 grains of WC867 in a shortened 30-06 (the XCB 57 mm cartridge) and a 155 grain cast bullet I get 2400 fps with a 30 inch barrel with close to MOA accuracy. That's a full case, and no booster charge or unburnt powder.

Litl Red 3991
05-02-2015, 01:04 PM
Got a deal on an 8lb bottle of AA8700 about 15-20 years ago. It looked like it'd work in buffalo cartridges, so it got a trial (after talking to the mfg a bit). Turned out it works ok if you take care. As for duplex loading it, no way would I do that with two smokeless powders.

Using a chronograph every test showed very uniform velocities (combustion). Fouling looked like what you'd expect too. No punk shots, no shots with more or less fouling. Shooting single shot breech loaders is not only fun, but more can be seen shot to shot.

About that time, AA came out with 5744 and word went around it was a good smokeless for the old BP cartridges. It was and is, but later on you'd hear somebody who'd been told it was good in BP cartridges telling somebody else that it was made to be a replacement for black etc. hmmmm.....

Funny thing is that 5744 has proven over the years to be the one smokeless that comes closest to BP on giving consistent velocities shot after shot. Yet it's maybe the worst smokeless for leaving unburned grains. It taught me that unburned grains don't always mean much at all. It's definitely not a slow powder like the OP wanted to talk about, but it's the best powder I've found for cast in big cases if you want really uniform velocity and don't want to shoot black.

Blackwater
05-02-2015, 05:30 PM
Did you use std. or mag. primers? What brand?

Ed Barrett
05-02-2015, 05:54 PM
Back a few years when they were really cheap on IMR 5010, shot a lot of it with fast primer loads. The only problem was unburnt 5010 granules pitted my old Chrono's face plate. Very accurate in Rossi .357 and .303 Savage.

Litl Red 3991
05-02-2015, 07:32 PM
Did you use std. or mag. primers? What brand?

If you're asking me.....

Back when I was messing with the 8700, the first loads were with magnum primers. All the usage was in large volume cases and it just seemed safer to start with mag. But velocity spread seemed to suggest milder might be better so I switched over to std. The big surprise was there wasn't any surprise. The only "modern" cartridge I tried 8700 in was 30-06 and it was at the end of the playing with 8700 time. It never got magnums because it never showed promise for any purpose so why bother.

The 5744 use has always been with stds. It's so amazingly constant with velocities it didn't seem to be having an ignition problem. It has proven to improve accuracy in a couple of odd balls. I got a SMLE that needed a lot of things renewed and it never shot worth spit. It got the recommended by everyone, magic bedding fix and couldn't have cared less. So it got an unissued, NIB, buried in cosmoline barrel from 1940something and started hitting paper at least. One day it got to test some 5744 and started hitting the black part of the paper. Who would have thought it...

Blackwater
05-02-2015, 07:57 PM
Thanks, Red. I have an old No. 4 Mk I that has a terrible barrel that needs replacing. Know where I can get one? A buddy has a VERY nice sort of English/German style stock for the #1 Mk IV with short, slender schnabble forend and a very nice pistol grip stock with cheekpiece that tends to be a blend of English/German style, and it truly feels fabulous in the hands. It's been Bondo'd to get the exterior dimensions just right, and he plans to send it to a pantograph owner and have duplicates made. If he pulls the trigger, and I've been on him to do just that, I'll post here and let y'all know. It'd make one heckuva cast boolit shooter, and be a consumate pleasure to handle and shoot. Time alone will tell if he'll find his round tuit or not, though. Just a FWIW. Sure wish I could find a barrel for my old No. 4.

Litl Red 3991
05-03-2015, 07:48 AM
Heck, there might be another in my barrel bin. I'll look. I know there is one thing in the bottom wrapped in gauze and petrified cosmoline, just don't know if it's 303 or not. About 20 years ago, I got the hots to make a 1903a3 and had to buy 2 at a time to get the best price for stocks and barrels. Did the same thing for the SMLE. I know I got one "new" takeoff that wasn't fired much. (only driven on weekends by an old lady)

BTW, the receivers on those things never had the brittle problem like the 1903. They're nothing close to brittle.

Blackwater
05-03-2015, 07:36 PM
Gee whiz, Red! You sure you won't need it? I'd be forever grateful and we can work out a fair deal on it if it'll fit. That old gun's been sitting around waiting for me to work on for too long now. And BTW, I have 4 '03 Spflds., all the older models but all high numbers. One is full, undisturbed military configuration with the long 16" bayonett just like Dad carried in his old boot camp pic at Paris Island, and like he carried over in China in the 30's. He was there 7 yrs. before WWII, then did the Pacific campaign, then most of Korea. I've always loved the old '03's. Very slick and fast guns. I have one I stocked, and did my first really decent job on. Have two more that need varying degrees of attention. One I put a 26 5/8" Broghton heavy barrel on and have in a laminated Marksman style stock. Need to get the bolt bent and a side swing safety on it, and the old warhorse will again ride and campaign at some local long distance shoots. If I can challenge some of the younger shooters with their much more expensive super rifles, it'd make Dad smile down from Heaven, I'm sure. I like the old Brits because they're so slick and quick into action. Here in the south, that's a pretty useful quality in a rifle. It also makes hunts a little more enjoyable, too. All the young lions seem to look down on these old warhorses, but that seems to keep the ones that are left and in good condition a bit cheaper - not a bad thing for their admirers who want to actually SHOOT them instead of just collect them. Again, will let you know if my buddy pulls the trigger on those stocks. I really think you'd love one.

Litl Red 3991
05-03-2015, 08:28 PM
Turns out that I've got two. One was new on the SMLE when I got it. The other?? Got no idea where it came from but it's there. Both show shiny bores from the cleaning they got when I filed them away. They also got dust all over too. They're both just the barrel.

You say you're here in the south? Then shipping ought to be fairly cheap.