Undersized (?) 311332

[Innosol]

Folks I just recently acquired a Lyman 311332 and the bullets it drops have driving bands of 0.314 and the "bore riding" nose at 0.2995. I am trying to use this bullet in my 03A3 which slugs 3085 x .301.

The bullet shoots very well in my 7.5 Swiss 1911 which slugs .3075 x .299 but the results were initially disappointing in my 03A3.

I read the article on Beagling and tried it and things got better for sure. Bullets were dropping with an rider of .3015 - .302. As good as this seems it is asthetically not very pleasing...

The question is since this mold is a production item if I were to purchase another would I be likely to encounter the same undersize condition or is there a lot of variablity?

Thanks in advance.

Bob

[Ben]

I owned ( for a short period of time ) the same mold, had the same identical problems as you're experienced. Nose was bad out of spec. for my rifles. Seems like the nose section on mine was in the .297 neighborhood.

Ben

[Maven]

Innosol, Like Ben, the one I owned also had an undersized nose. It was just OK in my K-31's, but not nearly as good as Ly. #311291 or Lee C-309-180R, whose noses are too small for the .30-06, but large enough for the Swiss. Lyman, and perhaps other mold manufacturers, need to invest in properly dimensioned cherries so as to avoid the non-bore-riding nose, which has been a pet peeve of mine. I've since traded #311332 to another caster.

[Ben]

Maven... I was thinking of a much stronger description ( than pet peeve ) for my feelings for Lyman's inability to make a bullet mold of the proper dimensions. I've bought .30 cal. Lyman molds ( new and used ) which basically ended up to be useless. That obviously cost me money. I bought their products in good faith and found that they were useless for their intended purpose because of their inability to hold their production standards within specs. My experience has been that the worst caliber for this to be observed in is their .30 cal. molds. So many have nose diameters that will mike .299 .298 and some even .297.

I shoot my .30 cast bullets in the 308 Win. and the 30 / 06, so bullets with a nose dia that is " sub .301 " is basically a useless item for me.

You would think that Lyman would eventually " catch on " and get into the swing of things. You know that they've received hundreds of complaints about molds being out of spec.

Maven, I like you don't want to imply that Lyman is the only company with this problem, but it does seem to me that in the past 10 yrs. or so that I've had a greater problem with Lyman .30 cal molds than the other brands.


Ben

[Maven]

Ben, I was merely being polite by referring to it (the undersized nose*) as a pet peeve. Maybe rip off would be a more accurate description? Odd, isn't it that Lyman's Loverin designs seem to be so well dimensioned (Come to think of it, I did have one of those too.), but not their bore-riders. Odder still is the fact that #311291 with its too-small nose shoots very well in both of my K-31's (@.309") and in my Sako-made Finn. Nagant (@.311"), but not my .30-06 (at any diameter). Yes, I'm in complete agreement with you about this, but that begs the questions, Are the mold manufacturer's aware of the problem? And, Are they willing to invest $$ if they are?


*Had a #311284 with the same problem and sold it as well. I hated to do it since it cast so well.

[Le Loup Solitaire]

For decades Lyman ruled the roost as "king of the oversize". Phil Sharpe and others along the way complained about it and it fell on deaf ears. The boys at Lyman, and then a few others that picked up the practice along the way, were only interested in sharpening the mold cherry cutters less and having them go further at a lesser expense. They also promoted and touted an idea, and sold it to the public that sizing was good for the boolit and everyone needed to do it to get good accuracy. Well maybe to some degree in a barrel that was worn. But Col. Harrison as well as other notable authorities also pointed out that boolits obturate or upset on ignition and fill the bore, so if your grooves measure .308 in a .30 caliber rifle, why are molds being made that cast at 311 and on up to .314 and then have to be sized smaller. And they also incidently, reaffirmed what Dr. Mann and lots of schutzen riflemen knew 100 years ago, i.e sizing damages the boolit,...the more sizing, then the more the damage. Then at some point a light bulb went on at Lyman and there came the so called undersize boolit molds (.30 cal). But they not only reduced the body section of the boolit which was a move in the right direction...they also blindly reduced the nose sections to sub-land riding diameters. The result was boolits that slumped off the longitudinal axis and went cockeyed down range. This was clearly and definitively pointed out by Harrison in his work on .30 cal boolits for the classic NRA publication. That also was totally ignored. So you have a shining example of the problem in #311332 and there are other examples as well. Another noted authority and marksman named R. Sears in his writings advocated testing the nose sections of .30 cal boolits by trying them in the muzzle, nose first, to test for "slop" and his good suggestion was to try and rectify the condition by "bumping" them in the lubri sizer to increase the diameter of the nose. It works, but you have to go back to Col. Harrison who said in his bottom line, " A good bullet comes from a good mold to start with". Of course there are other good alternatives (in the absence of any interest by the mold manufacturers) such as lapping and beagling, and the handloader that casts his own has to fix the problem, struggle and/ or put up with some poor results. Yet another way to cope with the undersize is to alloy in some tin with WW in particular as this can also produce a slightly larger boolit diameter. (The Terracorp furmula) Some tin, around 2-4% is good for it increases pouring fluidity and boolit fill out, but tin ain't cheap.(what is anymore?) In sum, lest this diatribe overstate the point, nobody has really listened for a long time because its all about $$$$ and "good business". If you have had any luck complaining with the moldmakers and realizing any change to the contrary then I and many others, salute you. LLS

[Innosol]

Well I guess I can take solice in the fact that I am not alone. But I don't think I will bother trying to find another 311332 that is closer to what I need. This sounds like a systemic short coming.

It does raise the question however - what is a good bullet and/or manufacturer for the 03A3 if not Lyman.

The other bullet that I have is the Lyman 311314 which has shown some promise but I have not put much time into it as yet. Has anyone had any experience with making that one work? I know from some of the other threads there seems to be mixed emotions.

Bob

[Ben]

Points well made Maven......My 311466 & 311467 are dimensioned properly and shoot great !

Le Loup Solitaire....I really don't plan on complaining to Lyman, my Granddaddy always told me " If you go to a party and 40 people at the party tell you that you're drunk, you might be."

With that point made I'd like to point out that Lyman KNOWS what their problems are. I don't have any plans to communicate with them about something that they are already aware of.

The buying public learns their lessons much quicker than corporate America. Those in corporate America who become deaf to their clientele's pleas will fall by the wayside.

I'm at a point in my casting where I'll pay $$$ for a quality mold, if it is from Lyman , so be it, if it is from RCBS, so be it, if it is from SAECO, so be it. I just want a quality mold. I'd rather pay a little more for a useful mold than save $15 - $20 and end up with a useless mold.

Ben

[Slowpoke]

I wonder for a band aid type fix for under sized noses if you could knurl a portion of the nose and then run it thru a appropriate sized nose die and find happiness.

I was goofing around the other evening and knurled some scrap boolits that were .360 and after knurling they were .363-64 . I ran them back thru a .360 size die and was surprised at the amount of resistance.

good luck






good luck

[nicholst55]

So, if Lyman's .30 molds tend to cast undersize, whose .30 molds would y'all recommend? I'd like to buy one or two .30 molds that would, ideally, work in everything including .30-30, .30-40 Krag, .308 and .30-06.

For the 'fat thirties' like 7.65 Argie, .303 British and 7.62X54R, I find myself highly tempted to order either a custom .30 or 8mm mold that will throw a 200 grain boolit at around .315-316". That should work for the three calibers I mentioned with minimal sizing.

[TCFAN]

Well at one time Lyman made at least one of the 311332 correct.I bought a double cav. about 15 years ago and it cast .311 on the bands and .301+ on the nose.This is out of 3 parts WW and one part Type.

My mould is marked 311332CW.It would be interesting to know if there is any body else that has one marked this way and what it might mike out....Terry

[HeavyMetal]

Here's a left field idea. Take a look at Lee's C312-155-2R mold. This is designed for the 7.62x39 but I have been using it successfully in my 30-30 contender as well as a 340 savage in 30-30. nose mikes around 303. I run it through a 308 sizer and lube it on a Star nose first.

[Ben]

heavyMetal is right, the Lee 155 gr. 312 bullet shoots well in just about ever .30 cal. rifle that I've ever shot it in ! !

Best shooting .30 cal. cast bullet for less than $20 that you'll probably ever shoot.

Ben

[Vly]

To answer the question about which bullet DOES shoot well in the 03A3, I would vote for the RCBS 180gr SP. Both of my 03A3's love this boolit using surplus SR-4759, Varget, or XMP-5744.

My favorite load is the RCBS 180gr sized to .310 and lubed with Felix Lube, over 20 grs of XMP-5744, using any standard primer, seated to an OAL of 3.16". Very good load.

[Le Loup Solitaire]

I have an old (no longer produced) Lyman #311334 that was made (by luck) to the right dimensions....casts with WW at .310 in the body and .301 in the nose. It shoots excellently in my 03-A3 because to start with it is the right shape(design) for a 2 groove barrel. In 2 groove tubes, the lands make up 5/8 ths of the bore circumference. That configuration requires a fairly short boolit body and a long nose that rides on the lands and is guided positively by them. A couple of good looking possibilities that ought to qualify in a similar design are the two SIL boolits made by RCBS, the 165 and 200 grainers that are listed as casting at .309+ What the nose sections are casting at I don't know, but the design is at least right for the 2 groove O3-A3. Might be worth a try. .309+ doesn't sound too bad...one can live with .310 and maybe, if the barrel is a bit worn, .311. If the nose is a little light one can do a little lapping with some fine grade valve grinding compound put on a short boolit cast onto a nail for the nose section only and revolving it slowly and carefully, ought to get it up to .300 or .301. The Lee designs by C.E. Harris for the 7.62x39's would work well in the O3-A3 2 groovers as well because of their similar design although I don't know what their as cast dimensions are. Depends on the alloy I suppose. Of course there are other molds produced by the other manufacturers that have worked well; molds made by Lyman particularly 311291(an excellent boolit) or Saeco's (RG4) 301, but only if the people making these molds make them to the right dimensions to start with. "Almost" doesn't count except in horse-shoes, dancing and handgrenades. LLS

[TAWILDCATT]

I have an older 311291 that I cast with WW.it is a tack driver in my 1914 springfield.with 13 grs red dot.at 1680fps.I have never shot the gun with anything else be cause of the low no.
I think Lyman really does not make that much profit on their goods.if the factory is like I think it is the machinery is old.I have many Ideal and lyman moulds.before WW2 the bores were varios sizes and it did not matter to much about the moulds
size.
Lee lathe bores and can make any size with out expensive tools. the machines cost 100,000 of thousands.If unhappy go to one of the custom mold makers on this site.I personally have many Lee moulds and never had a bad one.but I was a machinist and prep the moulds.:coffee:---[smilie=1:---:Fire:

[geraldchainsaw]

hi, new to the forum, i have a H&G mold, #68, can anyone tell me what i have?, thanks

[45nut]

Welcome to CB , the H&G 68 is considered one of the all time best 45acp designs out there, 200gr SWC, hold on to it.

[Brownie]

I shoot Lee 150GR FN in my Model of 1917, sized .308, with cream of wheat. works very well.

[Boomer Mikey]

My old standby has been the RCBS 30-165-SIL and 30-180-SP. The 165 has traditionally had a nose on the small side.

The old 165 has a 0.301" nose and 0.310" body, the 180 had a 0.302" nose and 0.311" body.

Midwayusa had the 165-SIL available with a price reduction when I ordered the 30-200-SIL last week so I ordered another one.

I was surprised to find the new 165 mold produced slightly heavier bullets with a 0.302" nose and 0.311" body and a slightly larger meplate... good to identify which mold.


The 200-SIL is interesting... the nose is a long taper from 0.299" to 0.308" with a 0.311 body. Three fourths of the nose tapers from 0.299" to 0.302".

I just cast these yesterday and haven't had a chance to try fit in my throats yet. Both of the new molds cast beautiful boolits without any release issues.

Alloy 50/50 WW/Linotype WQ:
Naked weights.
Old 165 167 grains
New 165 169 grains
200-SIL 201 grains

Boomer :Fire:

[mtnman31]

I see this thread is a little older. Interesting it has been resurrected. I got a 311332 mold at a gunshow in NC about a year and a half ago, it was steal (?) at 5 bucks. The dealer was a pawn shop and showed no interest in the reloading items he had on his table. Who knows. Anyway, I put the mold away and forgot about it. Pulled it out last month and cast with it. The bullets it dropped were pretty undersized, if I remember correct around .306 body. Maybe we all had molds cut with the same cherry or they passed through the same quality assurance inspector - on a day that he was hung-over...
I suppose I could call Lyman and see about getting it replaced.

[Brownie]

I have a 311332. bullets made from Lyman#2 measure .311 & 299.