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View Full Version : No meplat; will this cause a problem?



Jevyod
04-27-2015, 09:34 AM
In case I haven't said enough about it yet, goodsteel is building me a 358 Winchester. I was on the phone with him on Fri eve, and we were talking boolit selection for my rifle. He mentioned the 35 xcb boolit as being a great boolit design. I looked at the design, and my heart sank. It is a very pointy boolit. Below is what it will look like. I always thought that meplat is rather important is cast. This will be shot out of a 358 Winchester, am hoping to get around 2,200-2,300 MV. Although most shots will be close, where I hunt there are a lot of fields. I limit myself to 250 yards. I have shot deer out to 225 yards there. My concern is at 225 yards, how well will this boolit kill? I know a lot of these questions are subjective, But what do you think? I copied a picture of the prototype and posted it so you can see the design. It should weigh in at 215 grains.http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=131027&d=1424106995&thumb=1 (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=131027&d=1424106995)

Love Life
04-27-2015, 09:41 AM
Should kill things dead as long as they are hit in the right spot. I believe the XCB line of boolits is more for target work than hunting, but that is just an assumption and I very well may be making an a-word of myself.

Heck, buy 2 moulds! One with a larger meplat and this one and experiment with both.

runfiverun
04-27-2015, 10:57 AM
as the velocity goes up the need for a large meplat is negated.
look at a 30-30 bullet and a 30-06 bullet.
this is even moreso when it comes to cast, you don't want it to expand all at once you need it to actually take a second.
look at tims sticky in the hunting section we have a good discussion on the subject.

Yodogsandman
04-27-2015, 05:14 PM
Here's the NOE Ranch Dog 360-230, it's a great boolit!

http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=35&products_id=1068

PS Paul
04-27-2015, 05:45 PM
I think the link Goodsteel has attached to his threads on the subject of cast in 358, hi velocity and meat damage/killing power tells us A LOT about the design of boolit as speed increases!!

Id take just about ANY suggestion by Goodsteel on THIS subject as gospel, you know?

John Boy
04-27-2015, 06:17 PM
I always thought that meplat is rather important is cast.
Here is a 30 caliber bullet made by Ideal called "the Squabb". Ideal advertised it as the most accurate bullet to 500yds...
138131
I've shot it in a 30-30 to 500 meters and it is very accurate. There are many bullet designs that are spitzer and round nose that have no metplat and accurate

MBTcustom
04-27-2015, 06:34 PM
Read the link in my signature line carefully. If you cast the 35 XCB bullet out of the same alloy I used to explode the deer in that photo, the results would be very favorable, and I dare say the range of effectiveness would be extended. I designed it to fly at high velocity with a medium soft alloy and kill stuff at long ranges. 35 gives a noticeable edge over the 30 as far as killing power at distance. I would also submit to you that you can't kill what you cant hit, and you must be able to put the bullet in the right spot in order to get the job done in the first place, and therefore, the bullet design defers to speed and ballistic coefficient rather than just the typical "flying ingot with the BC of a brick" mentality (which I love, admire, and subscribe to for close range hunting at LOW velocity).
This bullet was designed for a long toss at high velocity just like its older brother the 30 XCB. Both were designed to be used in the field, but not the way we are used to.

white eagle
04-27-2015, 06:43 PM
the meplat does not have to be like for your typical handgun boolit
check out some of Tom's designs at Accurate Molds
he has some very nice molds in that cal.
I shoot the 358 as well I have one of Tom's molds one from RCBS and a design I made on
Dan's Mountain Molds web page designer
all shoot real well

runfiverun
04-27-2015, 08:50 PM
this is a pretty caliber specific question.
that boolit will be limping along at 2500 fps [seriously]
testing for hunting will be necessary no matter what the nose looks like but for sure at that velocity the smaller meplat will be a huge bonus.
I use a 250gr boolit in my 358 Winchester and I still backed the velocity down from 2400 to more like 2300 fps.
I use the saeco #248 which would have what most consider a tiny meplat for hunting.
and at 1800 fps it would be on the too small side [unless I modified the noses alloy to work properly]

at the higher velocity of the XCB series of cartridges the alloy's composition is going to make it work super similar to a jacketed bullet.
now whether that's a fmj, a varmint type, or a hornady interlock is up to the tester.

Jevyod
04-27-2015, 10:23 PM
Ok I was hoping to get answers like this! I am really hoping to use this mold! Also, can goodsteel or anybody else tell me what the ballistic coefficient will be on this design?

Jevyod
04-27-2015, 10:27 PM
this is a pretty caliber specific question.
that boolit will be limping along at 2500 fps [seriously]
testing for hunting will be necessary no matter what the nose looks like but for sure at that velocity the smaller meplat will be a huge bonus.
I use a 250gr boolit in my 358 Winchester and I still backed the velocity down from 2400 to more like 2300 fps.
I use the saeco #248 which would have what most consider a tiny meplat for hunting.
and at 1800 fps it would be on the too small side [unless I modified the noses alloy to work properly]

at the higher velocity of the XCB series of cartridges the alloy's composition is going to make it work super similar to a jacketed bullet.
now whether that's a fmj, a varmint type, or a hornady interlock is up to the tester.

What powder were you using to get 2400 fps out of a 250 grain boolit? That seems like a pretty stiff load considering powder capacity.

MBTcustom
04-27-2015, 10:45 PM
The only true way to get a real BC on the 35XCB bullet is to get Larry Gibson to measure it, but the advertised BC according to NOE is .313.

runfiverun
04-27-2015, 11:01 PM
RL-19, 50 grs will get you there.

bhn22
04-28-2015, 10:00 AM
There are BC calculators on line, but I have yet to see one that is accurate. FWIW, lube grooves alter a bullets ballistic coefficient, and I have yet to see a calculator that takes lube grooves into account. Then there are the issues raised by the different ogives as well. a high BC is not a guarantee of accuracy, only a measure of a bullets efficiency as it travels through the air. The differences between tangent and secant ogives would cause a fifty page thread around here, and there still would be no definitive conclusion because there are different issues with both designs that can be mitigated by throat (actually leade) design, and other factors. Read the first line of R5Rs sig line. Don't rely on calculations and mystical numbers. Get out and research and experiment to find the answers that fit your individual, unique circumstances.

A public service announcement from the guy who hasn't had his morning coffee yet.

ETA: I personally wouldn't choose that bullet design if I expected to shoot 250 yards with a 358 Winchester, especially when the RCBS 200 gr or (even better) the afore mentioned RD 230 gr bullets moulds are readily available.

44man
04-28-2015, 10:28 AM
What is going to count is the alloy and some expansion.

Jevyod
04-28-2015, 03:04 PM
I use the saeco #248 which would have what most consider a tiny meplat for hunting.
and at 1800 fps it would be on the too small side [unless I modified the noses alloy to work properly]

Statements like this are honestly what makes it hard for me to know which way to go. So take the above boolit. If I get that boolit moving to 2,500 fps and if it has a ballistic coefficient of .315, at 250 yards my velocity is down to 1800+ fps, which seems like a pretty slow speed for the lack of meplat. I know I would have to shoot into wet packs or some other medium to really see. But it seems like the thing that worked for 0-175 yards becomes a question at 175-250 yards. So maybe I need to just limit myself to 175 yards. Or just abandon the design entirely, and go for a more traditional size meplat. But if goodsteel thinks it is a good shooting boolit, I really want to try it. It just seems in this game, you cant have your cake and eat it to.

Jevyod
04-28-2015, 03:07 PM
I should state, that where I hunt, there is a tree line coming part way into the field at 250 yards out. That is an easy place to draw the line, and deer will travel out across the field about right at the tree line. So it would be very nice to have a combo worked out that allows me to shoot deer at the edge of the woods where I sit, out to that tree line.

gwpercle
04-28-2015, 04:03 PM
We all know the right answer to this question.......buy two , three or four moulds.
Pointed, flat point , round nose and hollow point! Yeah...that's the ticket, one of each.
Life's too dang short for only one mould!

MBTcustom
04-28-2015, 06:07 PM
I will do the same thing for the 35XCB that I did for the 30XCB. There will be a truncated cone duplicate of the 35XCB sent to Accurate Molds. It will have a .190 meplat, but all the parts that touch the rifleing will be identical in every way. That will make the choice very easy.

Now in my opinion, the most important thing about putting any creature down is the ability to stick the bullet in the right place. Many a deer has been dropped by a 22LR.
Trying to overcome hideous accuracy with a rapidly expanding bullet is like giving an apprentice carpenter a bigger hammer so he will quit missing the nails and scarring the furniture. You really don't help matters by giving a man who cannot hit his mark, more power.

Now if you have the power and the precision, you can use it more effectively.
Here is the very first 35XCB wildcat I created with it's first trip to the range.
138196

Two shots, a scope adjustment, and six more. (BTW, this is not a bull barrel. An accurate rifle is an accurate rifle. The barrel was very hot while this clover leaf was being shot).
138197

So now we have precision and accuracy. With a rifle that shoots like this, picking your spot becomes much less of a "chunk a hand grenade in there amongst 'em and hope they bleed out" kind of a proposition. You put the bullet in the right spot, and at 250 yards, if you're shooting a bullet with a .084 meplat, you're still going to put that deer down humanely if you're cooking along at 1500 FPS.

BTW, here is the 35 XCB bullet drawing. If anybody wants to get in on it, send Al Nelson a PM on the NOE website.
138199

runfiverun
04-29-2015, 12:38 AM
well according to every gun writer I ever seen write about the 358 win you can't hit them with a jacketed bullet at 250 yds.

your just gonna have to get a mold and work with it, you'll quickly make your own discoveries on where YOU draw the line.
for me it's @ 200yds [with my 35 cal combination] that is the absolute limit.
if I need to go further [and I got the room to go 10,000 yds] then I need something else.
lowering the bar to 1900 fps lowers my personal distance and comfort level by another 75 yards.

if I have a chance at a buck [any buck] out past 350 yards I probably need to get closer no matter what rifle I have with me.
anything within 300 yds is a point and press with any kind of stable position with several of my rifles [shrug] but quite often that just ain't needed so something else gets to come along.
where I'm at I have to hunt and hunt dang hard I could take 3-4 rifles along with me during most days and still not cover all the options I could have.
so I gotta settle and work within the capability's of the rifle [and mine]

35 shooter
04-29-2015, 02:22 AM
Looks like one more 35 cal. mould will be added to the stable soon. I'm going to order a 30 cal.xcb mould this week and will go ahead and dive on this 35xcb too! I like flat meplats or big round noses too, but i intend to hunt with both xcb boolits this year.
I shot 2 deer last season with a 35 whelen and a 358009 rn boolit @ 2200 fps. Both ran but left blood trails about 1 1/2 feet wide almost solid on the ground. One made it 30 yds. straight to me and the other made it almost 100 yds. and hit every tree and tripped over every log in it's path.

My point is i had a hard (27 bhn) boolit and had no expansion and they still didn't go far. I would expect the same from the 35 xcb. Anything from a drt to a short dash and one big blood trail! With a softer alloy i would be expecting drt's mostly.

MBTcustom
04-29-2015, 08:33 AM
Looks like one more 35 cal. mould will be added to the stable soon. I'm going to order a 30 cal.xcb mould this week and will go ahead and dive on this 35xcb too! I like flat meplats or big round noses too, but i intend to hunt with both xcb boolits this year.
I shot 2 deer last season with a 35 whelen and a 358009 rn boolit @ 2200 fps. Both ran but left blood trails about 1 1/2 feet wide almost solid on the ground. One made it 30 yds. straight to me and the other made it almost 100 yds. and hit every tree and tripped over every log in it's path.

My point is i had a hard (27 bhn) boolit and had no expansion and they still didn't go far. I would expect the same from the 35 xcb. Anything from a drt to a short dash and one big blood trail! With a softer alloy i would be expecting drt's mostly.

With the 358009, it's very possible that the dramatic effect you observed was due to the bullet tumbling on impact. It's ever so effective, and it wouldn't matter if your bullet was made of titanium if it performed like that. The 358318 does the same. We call it the "venison boomerang" for this very reason:
A. because it goes through the deer end over end like la boomerang and
B. because one deer I shot at 75 yards ran straight towards me and died 15 yards in front of my boots.

MBTcustom
04-29-2015, 08:38 AM
For those of you interested in the 35XCB, here is what the bullet will look like:
138235

GLynn41
04-29-2015, 09:26 AM
I have killed just one deer with the Saeco 245 -- close range--12 steps-- 41 gr of H322 never clocked it-- the bullet made a .60 in and out -- - i bought the bullets so do not know the alloy -- it worked just fine -- but in my .358 250 yards is my max (22'' rebarrelled Vanguard) 200 FTX work just fine-- I do not see my self using that Saeco boolit at any thing but woods-- I might do like I do with .22 solds file a some what larger meplat -- I have been reading a lot on this and looking at molds-- time will tell

35 shooter
04-29-2015, 01:19 PM
With the 358009, it's very possible that the dramatic effect you observed was due to the bullet tumbling on impact. It's ever so effective, and it wouldn't matter if your bullet was made of titanium if it performed like that. The 358318 does the same. We call it the "venison boomerang" for this very reason:
A. because it goes through the deer end over end like la boomerang and
B. because one deer I shot at 75 yards ran straight towards me and died 15 yards in front of my boots.

I've read your reports on the 318 boolit before and lol, i guess the boomerang effect is ok as long as the boolit doesn't come back to you :wink:!!!

As for the 358009 it looked like straight line in and out with the 27 bhn i was using. About a 1" wound channel through the lungs and not much more than a full cal. hole out the offside in the hide. Both deer were shot at 60 and 40 yds. and took off in a blind run, but weren't going anywhere!

44man
04-30-2015, 10:32 AM
I will do the same thing for the 35XCB that I did for the 30XCB. There will be a truncated cone duplicate of the 35XCB sent to Accurate Molds. It will have a .190 meplat, but all the parts that touch the rifleing will be identical in every way. That will make the choice very easy.

Now in my opinion, the most important thing about putting any creature down is the ability to stick the bullet in the right place. Many a deer has been dropped by a 22LR.
Trying to overcome hideous accuracy with a rapidly expanding bullet is like giving an apprentice carpenter a bigger hammer so he will quit missing the nails and scarring the furniture. You really don't help matters by giving a man who cannot hit his mark, more power.

Now if you have the power and the precision, you can use it more effectively.
Here is the very first 35XCB wildcat I created with it's first trip to the range.
138196

Two shots, a scope adjustment, and six more. (BTW, this is not a bull barrel. An accurate rifle is an accurate rifle. The barrel was very hot while this clover leaf was being shot).
138197

So now we have precision and accuracy. With a rifle that shoots like this, picking your spot becomes much less of a "chunk a hand grenade in there amongst 'em and hope they bleed out" kind of a proposition. You put the bullet in the right spot, and at 250 yards, if you're shooting a bullet with a .084 meplat, you're still going to put that deer down humanely if you're cooking along at 1500 FPS.

BTW, here is the 35 XCB bullet drawing. If anybody wants to get in on it, send Al Nelson a PM on the NOE website.
138199
I love this, truth is accuracy and where you hit. There is no "good enough for deer" even though I have said 2" at 100 is good enough. Not so good at 200 or 250.