Lyman 356637 Close Call

[rbwillnj]

I wanted to try a new 9mm bullet for IDPA, so I picked up a Lyman 4 cavity 356637. It's supposed to cast a 147 grain bullet, but with my alloy it comes out at about 154 grains. I cast a bunch of good looking bullets and went to my Lyman Pistol and Revolver Reloading Handbook to find a load that would meet my requirments.

For IDPA I need a power factor of 125,000, so that means that I need a velocity of at least 812 ft/sec. with this bullet. The reloading manual says 1.9 grains of Clays gives 669 ft/sec, and the max load of 2.8 grains gives 873 ft/sec. So I figured I would start with 2.5 grains and see how that worked.

I loaded up about 20 rounds (2.5 grains, 1.058 OAL) and headed to the range. I shot off the first couple, and the load felt good, and they hit the target pretty close to the point of aim (I wasn't really trying at this point) So I loaded a magazine with 5 and let them go down range....well not all of them. The gun (Colt Combat Comander) jammed after four rounds. I couldn't move the slide. Then I noticed some of my brass on the floor. The cases had no primers. I found some primers on the floor, and they were flat as a pancake, and mushroomed a bit. The brass had a clear line indicating the portion that wasn't supported, but wasn't fractured as far as I could tell.

When I got home, I was able to get the gun apart and found a piece of brass wedged between the barrel and slide, and no damage to the gun. Anyway, close call for me and the gun. Yes, I know I should have started with the starting load. Valuable lesson learned. I just never had a problem before with a midrange load from a loading manual. I think I'll try a slower more dense powder next, and start with the starting load.

Long Story, but I thought it was worth telling

[Blammer]

very interesting!

glad no one or nothing was hurt or damaged!

[utk]

Could the boolits have telescoped into the cases when they hit the feed ramp? Case grip?
Assemble a couple of "dummies", i.e. without primer and powder and cycle them "as violently as you can" through the gun. Has COL decreased?

[rbwillnj]

I doubt that the COL shortened, but I will give your suggestion a try. The rounds seemed to feed very smoothly.

The max load of 2.8 grains is listed as a compressed load. The load I used probably wasn't compressed, but didn't leave much if any void space. Of course that doesn't mean the COL couldn't have shortened.

[1_Ogre]

I am looking for a 356637 4 cavity mold. Anyone out there have one they would like to get rid of? I have a lot of stuff to trade for it, go to "http://www.thegascheckstore.com" and see if there is anything of interest. Look under "Other Items for Sale".
Thanks for checking:
Lead47

[noylj]

I will say it again--Clays is NOT a powder to fool around with. You HAVE to work up from starting load carefully. You should always use the longest COL that will function in your gun. Clays as an almost hockey-stick like pressure curve. It is fine in low pressure rounds like .45 Auto and .38 Special but is real challenge for action pistol shooters trying to make any PF.
The 1.9-2.8 grain wasn't enough warning that this is NOT a powder that is really applicable to a case as small as the 9x19 with a bullet that is WAY over-weight for the cartridge? Did you carefully weigh each load or just load by volume where the standard metering error could easily take you over max?
"Safe" powders, forgetting any action pistol requirements and just loading for safety, are Silhouette, True Blue, HS6, AA7, and Blue Dot.
These powders all have a decent range from start to max and use an amount of powder that a measure can accurately handle.
Also, Please ALWAYS check your loads for bullet tension. Realize that 9x19, .380 Auto, and .40 S&W just love to blow up guns if there is ANY bullet set-back.
Next, you ALWAYS look at the first couple of cases you fire with a new load.
You were very lucky...

[wacki]

Yes, I know I should have started with the starting load. Valuable lesson learned. I just never had a problem before with a midrange load from a loading manual. I think I'll try a slower more dense powder next, and start with the starting load.



What's a starting load? How do you know if it's ok to move up?

[rintinglen]

Power pistol is your friend--not the most economical powder, but it groups well and is useful for PF loads. 4.1 grains is the recommended start load.

[357maximum]

WHEW glad you are ok.....screw the gun that can be replaced...glad you are ok.

BTW...I do not care if I am trying only 1 grain of unique in a 30/06...the first thing I do after the first round goes bang is to thoroughly inspect that piece of brass......that habit is a good one to get into.

[Doc1]

I will say it again--Clays is NOT a powder to fool around with. You HAVE to work up from starting load carefully. You should always use the longest COL that will function in your gun. Clays as an almost hockey-stick like pressure curve. It is fine in low pressure rounds like .45 Auto and .38 Special but is real challenge for action pistol shooters trying to make any PF.
The 1.9-2.8 grain wasn't enough warning that this is NOT a powder that is really applicable to a case as small as the 9x19 with a bullet that is WAY over-weight for the cartridge? Did you carefully weigh each load or just load by volume where the standard metering error could easily take you over max?
"Safe" powders, forgetting any action pistol requirements and just loading for safety, are Silhouette, True Blue, HS6, AA7, and Blue Dot.
These powders all have a decent range from start to max and use an amount of powder that a measure can accurately handle.
Also, Please ALWAYS check your loads for bullet tension. Realize that 9x19, .380 Auto, and .40 S&W just love to blow up guns if there is ANY bullet set-back.
Next, you ALWAYS look at the first couple of cases you fire with a new load.
You were very lucky...

Noylj,

Excellent post and this is the one reason I have never loaded Clays. I was aware of its reputation as a "problem" powder WRT pressure spikes. Reloaders should research their propellants and
try to understand as much about their characteristics as possible.

Too many guys only read pressure levels in their manual and assume that this translates into identical performance in other cartridges and other powders across the board when nothing could be further from the truth. FWIW, I'm an extremely conservative reloader and while I will try different powders if I get a deal or some is given to me, I study the new stuff carefully and extensively before use! Otherwise, I have a short list of favorite, tried and true propellants I use regularly which will not provide unpleasant surprises!

Oh - just to throw something sorta' related into the mix - here's a true reloading story of the sort that should make folks' hair stand on end. I knew a guy ... I won't call him a friend ... who thought he was some kind of expert on firearms. He wasn't. Let's call him "Bob." Bob owned a few guns, but really didn't understand much about firearms and absolutely nothing about reloading. He liked to drop by and visit with me semi-frequently because of my interest in firearms and the fact that I was a reloader. The guy was a PITA (Pain-In-The-***) and I probably tolerated him longer than I should have because I'd like to think of myself as a fairly nice fella. Anyway, the thing is that he absolutely would not listen to any reloading advice. He'd say he wanted to learn something, but as soon as you tried to explain he'd have a knee-jerk response where he had to interject his clueless opinion about whatever it was you were saying.

I went through Hurricane Katrina and in the months after the storm I came into huge amounts of flooded ammunition. Being poor and wiped out from the storm, I salvaged as much of this as I could and while little of it was good (or IMHO safe) for shooting, it was great to break down for components. As some of you guys will realize, there are safe ways to salvage even mystery powder from flooded ammo if it hasn't been wetted, by carefully working up loads with comparable cartridges. Mostly though, I was pulling, saving and cleaning brass and bullets.

So one day Bob stopped by my place and saw the thousands of rounds of flooded ammo I had laying around the shop. I briefly mentioned what I was doing with saving flooded ammunition components, but we didn't discuss any of the particulars and he didn't stay long.

The next time I saw Bob he was happily beaming and said something to the effect of "I took your advice!" Since I hadn't given him any advice I was a bit perplexed as to what the 'ell he was talking about! "I've been salvaging flooded ammunition," he explained. As you can imagine, alarm bells were going off and I asked him exactly what he was doing.

It turns out that Bob was emptying the powder from various different cartridges into a can and was then using this unknown, mixed powder to load revolver rounds! He wasn't weighing anything, but just pouring his mixed mystery powder into cases and then - lacking a press - was tapping salvaged bullets into the cases with a little hammer!!! I must've turned purple when I screamed, "You can't do that!!!" but he just smiled and assured me that it was working fine.

I believe that was the very last time I saw Bob...

Best regards
Doc

[500MAG]

Wow! Very lucky that gun wasn't damaged or at least bulged the grips.