Neck tension issues in Cat Sneeze/Mouse Fart loads

[anhurset]

I had my first experience working with ultra light loads yesterday, I've got a FR-8 which I love, but which also beats the **** out of me when I shoot it, so I decided it would be a prime candidate for light loads. I had a handfull of 7.62 NATO brass which I had fired through this gun so, following the info I could find on this forum, I drilled the flash holes out with a #30 bit, neck sized with a Lee Collet sizer and loaded a 112gr 32-20 boolit sized to .309 in front of 3.2 gr of Bullseye.

All rounds fired and were fairly accurate at 50 yards, the problem arose when I attempted to reload those rounds. I again neck sized with the Lee Collet die, but when I got to the bullet seating stage I had three cases where the boolit just dropped into the case. I resized the necks on those three cases, marked them, finished loading them, fired and began reloading them again at which point I found the same issue with two other cases. I'm not sure what's going on here, I don't know if it's an oversized throat on the FR-8 (not unusual from what I understand) or if it's my technique with the Lee Collet sizer. Anyone had neck tension issues like this with Cat Sneeze/Mouse Fart loads?

[mehavey]

Don't think it has anything to do with the weapon/throat.
Rather it is under-adjustment of the die to fully reduce the neck to the internal mandrel diameter

See:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=MgHR43TN5Zk#t=182

Out of curiosity, are you sure all the cases have the same neck thickness ? (req'd if the collet is to work to a consistent result)_

[popper]

I never could get it to work for the 243 or 30/30. I polished everything and use a classic cast press, still didn't work. I found partial neck sizing with the FL die worked ok but ended up with a lot of split necks when shooting the hornady 110.

[Calamity Jake]

It's time to anneal.

[anhurset]

Don't think it has anything to do with the weapon/throat.
Rather it is under-adjustment of the die to fully reduce the neck to the internal mandrel diameter

See:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=MgHR43TN5Zk#t=182

Out of curiosity, are you sure all the cases have the same neck thickness ? (req'd if the collet is to work to a consistent result)_

All the cases were LC 94 headstamp, I don't have the proper tools to accurately check neck wall thickness, but I can't believe there would be to drastic a difference. This was my first time seriously using the Lee Collet die, I'll get it set up again later today and try it fiddling with it, I'm thinking you're right and that it needs to be screwed in another 1/4-1/2 turn.

[Artful]

Did you check the case length on all the cases you are using, and are they uniform?

[anhurset]

Did you check the case length on all the cases you are using, and are they uniform?

Yes, all cases were trimmed and double checked.

[gloob]

Oh, there is definitely neck thickness differences in same lot of brass. Work hardening will also cause variation, with the more hardened cases opening back up more after the collet sizing. Collet sizing is a little finicky unless you track your brass.

If you have continued issues with that batch of brass after making adjustments, you can screen your collet-sized cases by putting in your sizing die with the expander ball set long. Work the ram just enough to get the expander ball thru the neck. The ones where the expander ball doesn't drag, set those aside. Likewise any that seem to drag too hard. This is a way of cheaply uniforming your brass without turning equipment.

Disregard what the headstamp says. Expecting cases to be the same just because of what's stamped on the bottom is folly. The expander ball will tell you which of your cases are not like the others.

[MikeBitzenburger]

It's time to anneal.


and switch to a MAGNUM primer. I shoot a lot of MOUSE FART loads in several different guns. Both the annealing and mag primer operations seem to help most of the time.

[MT Chambers]

I would first check to see if your sizing die is doing it's job or if it is out of spec., it should size it down and the expander should open the mouth to be a proper fit of the bullet. I use Redding dies and have never had this problem, my Redding bushing dies allow me to fine tune that bullet fit with dif. sized bushings.

[gloob]

I would first check to see if your sizing die is doing it's job or if it is out of spec., it should size it down and the expander should open the mouth to be a proper fit of the bullet.I thought the point of collet sizing was to size just the neck of unsized or body-only sized cases. Could the sizing die be part of the problem if he's not using it?

[MT Chambers]

The OP needs to use a proper sizing die and see what that does to case neck tension, a proper expanding die would include an expander button, unless using proper bushing style dies that don't expand. By "proper" I mean not any collet die.

[Yodogsandman]

How about trying a boolit sized bigger like, .310",.311" or .312"?

[Hannibal]

How about trying a boolit sized bigger like, .310",.311" or .312"?

Wouldn't that be fitting the bullet to the case, rather than fitting the bullet to the barrel ? :veryconfu

[Cowboy_Dan]

Wouldn't that be fitting the bullet to the case, rather than fitting the bullet to the barrel ? :veryconfu

If the larger boolit chambers freely, then he is approaching fitting it to the throat. From what I hear, that is the way to go.

[Hannibal]

If the larger boolit chambers freely, then he is approaching fitting it to the throat. From what I hear, that is the way to go.

I presume the OP sized to .309" for a "fit" reason. He even mentions the performance on target was "fairly accurate". The only issue raised was with neck diameter after sizing. I agree with the position of previous posters that there is either a die set-up issue or the case necks are in need of annealing. I stand by my position that sizing the boolits larger to fit the irregular case neck diameters is sizing the boolits to fit the cases and not the rifle given the information we have at hand thus far.

[Yodogsandman]

I presume the OP sized to .309" for a "fit" reason. He even mentions the performance on target was "fairly accurate". The only issue raised was with neck diameter after sizing. I agree with the position of previous posters that there is either a die set-up issue or the case necks are in need of annealing. I stand by my position that sizing the boolits larger to fit the irregular case neck diameters is sizing the boolits to fit the cases and not the rifle given the information we have at hand thus far.

The OP has stated that he doesn't know if he has an oversized throat. We can presume that he did not do a pound slug of his chamber. Cowboy Dan is correct about fitting the boolit to the throat.

My FR-8 needs a boolit sized to .311".

[1johnlb]

Hardened case necks spring back to different sizes after collet sizing with lee dies. With varying cases and thicknesses some harden faster and some slower, that creats a varying amount of spring back. The collet die presses each case to the same size mandrel, thus creating the varied inside neck diameter.

In short as already stated, anneal the cases.

[anhurset]

Hardened case necks spring back to different sizes after collet sizing with lee dies. With varying cases and thicknesses some harden faster and some slower, that creats a varying amount of spring back. The collet die presses each case to the same size mandrel, thus creating the varied inside neck diameter.

In short as already stated, anneal the cases.

I got the Collet die set up again yesterday and fiddled with it a bit, I believe those of you who are suggesting anealing may be right. Regardless of how deep I had the die threaded (within reason) I was getting enough spring back that there was still a noticeable difference in neck tension between cases, with one case being open enough that the boolit just fell through again.
I've never anealed cases before, so this is going to be a learning experience.

[mehavey]

I've never anealed cases before, so this is going to be a learning experience.It can be very easy, but you will get as many opinions on how to do it as there are people on this board.
My way is best though. :bigsmyl2: :bigsmyl2: :kidding:
See: http://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4147934&postcount=8

[popper]

Rotate the neck in a candle flame till you can't hang onto it anymore (bare fingers on the base), wipe with a cotton towel to remove soot and dump in water. Fast, easy and cheap. My Lee for 243 (once fired Hornady brass) never worked, 30/30 barely did, some do, some don't. Anneal when it needs it, I FL and toss the brass when the neck splits or PP wears out, MANY times reloaded. Don't even resize the flash holes, no problems in 30/30, LRPs is all I use.

[Hannibal]

The OP has stated that he doesn't know if he has an oversized throat. We can presume that he did not do a pound slug of his chamber. Cowboy Dan is correct about fitting the boolit to the throat.

My FR-8 needs a boolit sized to .311".

Irregardless of the possibility of a 'generous' chamber or not, resized brass should grip a .309" bullet. If it does not, there is either a problem with the die set up, or the case neck / necks.

I did not pick up on the fact that you were switching the topic of discussion from neck tension to throat fit, hence the source of my confusion.
To correctly size the bullet to the throat requires either a chamber cast or pound cast. I would not recommend the 'try and see' method. Especially for one who appears to be new to cast boolit shooting. If the OP learns how to do this well now, it will continue to serve him in the future.

[Yodogsandman]

FWIW, after slugging, my thoughts are that the OP should full length resize the brass first and expand the neck with an "M" die. He seems to be having problems with his collet neck sizer.

[Hannibal]

I am not familiar with any collet-type neck sizing dies, so I can not speak to the use / set up of one. That said, given the information provided thus far, I would start investigation with that die myself.

[anhurset]

FWIW, after slugging, my thoughts are that the OP should full length resize the brass first and expand the neck with an "M" die. He seems to be having problems with his collet neck sizer.

I full length size when I need to, in this case I'm dealing with an FR-8 which has a fairly generous chamber and full length sizing with every reload kills the brass in 3-4 loads. Like I said, this was my first real run with both the Collet, I had played around with it a bit and loaded my first ultra light loads with it with no problem, it wasn't until the second reload that I started having an issue. Since I didn't have issues with the first loading I'm leaning toward a need to aneal, hopefully I'll get a chance to take a run at it this weekend.

[MT Chambers]

I have full length sized and/or neck sized with PROPER dies for ever and never had a problem with bullet not being held by the neck of case, I have had bullet fit that was too tight, and had to remedy that.

[Yodogsandman]

I shoot 308 Win brass in my FR-8 and even with full power jacketed, I get around 10 firings. With cast, I get about 25 firings. This is with full length sizing the cases each and every time and using a 30 cal "M" die for cast boolits. Maybe the thicker military brass does need annealing. Maybe it needs to be full length resized more often because it is thicker.

[1johnlb]

On a turn bolt with a good chamber, regardless of chamber size, the only time you need to FL size is when the bolt starts sticking on extraction and then you only need to bump the shoulder back.

[anhurset]

On a turn bolt with a good chamber, regardless of chamber size, the only time you need to FL size is when the bolt starts sticking on extraction and then you only need to bump the shoulder back.

Exactly, I'm having no chambering or extraction issues with these reloads in this rifle, thus I see no reason to full length resize except perhaps to gauge the difference in spring back between the FL sizer and the Collet die.

In response to the comment of using a "PROPPER" die, I'm not a fan of brand snobbery and I don't find comments of that type at all helpful. If i could afford better dies I would get them, but right now I purchase the dies that I can afford when I can afford them.

[Doc Highwall]

anhurset, you said you only get 3-4 loading's from a case when full length sizing, I believe you are over sizing your cases by having the sizing die screwed down too much. The headspace on a 308 only has a .010 tolerance from minimum to maximum, and with a 7/8-14 thread pitch in the dies makes setting headspace critical.

If you divide 1 by the thread pitch you will get the amount of travel per each full turn of your die/screw.
Example 1 divided by 14 = .071428... travel per full turn, lets round that up to .072" per full turn to make the math easy.

This means that
1/2 turn = .036" travel
1/4 turn = .018" travel
1/8 turn = .009" travel

From this you can see that you have to have your die within 1/16 of a full turn for + or - .0045" to get the correct head spacing of your cartridge case for your chamber.

I try to set my dies up to re-size or bump the shoulder back on a case that was fired in my chamber for a bolt gun .001" to .002" max smaller and for a semi auto .003" to .004" max smaller with new cases, this will allow for some spring back as the case work hardens. This extends case life and improves accuracy.

I use a Stoney Point head space gage now made by Hornady to measure cases and set up my reloading dies.

[Yodogsandman]

I smoke my cases, fired in that rifle and turn the F/L sizer down to just kiss the datum line of the shoulder, leaving barely a mark on the carbon from the smoke..

[rsrocket1]

You can screw that collet die 5 turns beyond contact with the shell holder and it won't make a difference. The Lee collet die has 4 fingers that close in on the neck and pushes it against a ~0.305" mandrel. The fingers are actuated when the bottom of the die body touches the shell holder. The force of the fingers on the neck is purely based on the force you push down on with the press handle. It's important to use the same force to get consistent neck tension, but if you push really hard, you won't do much more than to raise 4 grooves of brass where the fingers meet.

If you unscrewed the top of the die and pulled the mandrel out, you'd see how it works. Pretty simple and effective.

[anhurset]

You can screw that collet die 5 turns beyond contact with the shell holder and it won't make a difference. The Lee collet die has 4 fingers that close in on the neck and pushes it against a ~0.305" mandrel. The fingers are actuated when the bottom of the die body touches the shell holder. The force of the fingers on the neck is purely based on the force you push down on with the press handle. It's important to use the same force to get consistent neck tension, but if you push really hard, you won't do much more than to raise 4 grooves of brass where the fingers meet.

If you unscrewed the top of the die and pulled the mandrel out, you'd see how it works. Pretty simple and effective.

Okay, so I spent a good 2+ hours playing around with both the Collet die and FL sizer yesterday and I found that I've got two issues with the Collet sizer, first and foremost the mandrel is too large, it measures right at .308, so some of the springier cases are springing back to a larger size while the softer ones are staying to size. Second, without some sort of device to measure the pressure applied with the Collet die I just can't be consistent with it and I seem to be work hardening some of the brass which is amplifying the issue with the oversized mandrel. It should be fairly easy to nock .001 of of the mandrel, but it will have to wait until after finals next week.

Yodogsandman, that's precisely what I ended up doing yesterday, took case measurements, smoked the case and backed the FL sizer off and slowly dialed it down until I found a sweet spot that resized most of the neck without touching the body of the case. Results were far more consistent than with the Collet die and I had no issues with neck tension. For the time being I think I'll stick with using the FL sizer set high, at least until I can get the Collet die modified and then get the hang of using it in a consistent manner.

[popper]

full length sizing with every reload kills the brass in 3-4 loads (?) -sweet spot that resized most of the neck without touching the body of the case.
That will work, partial neck sizing BUT watch for shoulders NOT in the right place - too long. I do it right every time and don't think I'll ever get through the 500 pcs of LC brass I have. I anneal after ~ 5 loadings but don't track it very well.

[gloob]

Second, without some sort of device to measure the pressure applied with the Collet die I just can't be consistent with it and I seem to be work hardening some of the brass which is amplifying the issue with the oversized mandrel.
I wouldn't worry about overworking the cases. The mandrel provides the stop, here. It doesn't much matter how hard you press. Just don't press hard enough to imprint the brass, and you're fine.

Off on a tangent:
The mandrel is .308. Springback of the case can be in the ballpark of maybe 1 or 2 thous, depending on the brass, leaving the case necks to open back up to say .309-.310, which is bigger than your bullet. I'm surprised you get neck tension in any of the cases.

FL sizing, OTOH, in the ideal scenario the size die brings the ID of the neck at least 2-3 thou smaller than the bullet (again, will vary with brass). And then when you put, say, a .309 expander through the neck, it will open the neck up. And springback will take it back DOWN ~1-2 mils, to somewhere around .307-.308. A collet sizer with a .308 mandrel can obviously not get down to .308, even.

[1johnlb]

My mandrel mics .3055, exactly to spec

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