Cap and ball revolver stock legality?

[texaswoodworker]

Sorry if this is the wrong forum for this thread. I didn't see a forum that it really fits into since its more about the legality of a gin and not the gun itself.

Some of you may be familiar with the this.

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/04/19/6d29b82f47f8c30ae2f2472dcffdb008.jpg

Its a stock for an 1860 Colt Army, and is correct for the period. My question is, is it legal to do this without going through the NFA process and paying $200 for a tax stamp? Its my understanding that black powder firearms such as this are not considered firearms by the federal government, and as such are exempt from NFA and GCA rules.

Of course, sticking a conversion cylinder in it would probably be a no no, but I just want the C&B version for the historical aspect.

[MtGun44]

According to the Feds and most states it is not a gun, so who cares?

However, if live outside of Free America - like NJ, CA, NY, etc, etc better
check your state laws.

Feds do not care. (Clarification: muzzle loaders are "not guns")

[GoodOlBoy]

Why would you need a tax stamp for a shoulder stock on a handgun (though blackpowder revolvers are not considered firearms but still)? The only thing I know of you need a tax stamp for in Texas is a suppressor, or a full auto rig, and there are laws they are trying to pass to remove the federal requirement so long as it is created, maintained, and kept within the state.

But back to the stock. You don't need a tax stamp for a stock for a broomhandle, nor for a luger as far as I know and they are MUCH newer AND considered firearms....

Sorry but the question confuses me... must be something I don't know (which granted there is alot I don't know)

GoodOlBoy

[texaswoodworker]

Why would you need a tax stamp for a shoulder stock on a handgun (though blackpowder revolvers are not considered firearms but still)? The only thing I know of you need a tax stamp for in Texas is a suppressor, or a full auto rig, and there are laws they are trying to pass to remove the federal requirement so long as it is created, maintained, and kept within the state.

But back to the stock. You don't need a tax stamp for a stock for a broomhandle, nor for a luger as far as I know and they are MUCH newer AND considered firearms....

Sorry but the question confuses me... must be something I don't know (which granted there is alot I don't know)

GoodOlBoy

Putting a stock on a handgun turns it into a short barreled rifle, which does require a tax stamp. This is why you see PPS-43Cs with their folding stock welded/pinned shut. They are legally a handgun, but the use of the stock turns them into a rifle. Stupid, but that's the law.

The Mauser and Luger have very specific exemptions IIRC. If someone were to make a replica of them today, they would likely require the tax stamp for the stock.

[texaswoodworker]

According to the Feds and most states it is not a gun, so who cares?

However, if live outside of Free America - like NJ, CA, NY, etc, etc better
check your state laws.

Feds do not care.
I'm in free America. :D

[GoodOlBoy]

OK now I see your point.

C&R use to protect you on anything under it's umbrella for vintage firearms and their repops, BUT I know that in states like california it's not legal anymore, but then again what is.

A brief search literally turned up NOTHING one way or the other for Texas, but turned up TONS of warning flags for california, and northeastern anti-gun territories.

short answer is I hope somebody has a better answer, but I don't think it's an issue on a BP revolver...

NOTE: I edited this back down for reading because I realized I had started to ramble and brought up a bunch of irrelevant points that had little to do with the topic. Sorry about that.

GoodOlBoy

[oldred]

Stupid, but that's the law..

Can't say it any better than that!

[doc1876]

This application is legal even in Illinois, but I am sure, some of the more restricted states, you better check with.
Don't try it on a modern pistol here

[lar45]

The Cap and Ball pistol in the picture is not considered a "Firearm" according to the GFA and NFA per the Antique clause. Don't take my word for it, look it up.
The Antique section has a part that covers replicas.
If it not a centerfire or rimfire then it is not a "Firearm"
If it was a centerfire or rimfire and the ammo for it could not be bought commercially, then it is not a "Firearm",
If it was a centerfire or rimfire and the ammo for it could be bought commercially, then it is a "Firearm", then the buttstock would make it illegal.
Again, don't take my word for it, look it up in the GCA- Gun Control Act, and the NFA- National Firearms Act. These used to be fairly easy to find on the ATF's website, but now they seem to be hidden and harder to find.

I just found this link on the subject.
http://www.atf.gov/content/firearms/firearms-industry/guides/national-firearms-act-definitions-antique-firearm
It appears to be different than the actual NFA that I read about 7 years ago. Now in the example they are putting Rimfire in the same category, as to where the actual NFA's wording was "central fire" ammunition.
I'll see if I can locate a current version of the NFA and GCA.
If someone else finds a current version from a reputable source, please paste a link here.


Putting a stock on a handgun turns it into a short barreled rifle, which does require a tax stamp. This is why you see PPS-43Cs with their folding stock welded/pinned shut. They are legally a handgun, but the use of the stock turns them into a rifle. Stupid, but that's the law.

The Mauser and Luger have very specific exemptions IIRC. If someone were to make a replica of them today, they would likely require the tax stamp for the stock.

[mjwcaster]

Just remember to check state laws.
I know it was stated earlier that it is legal in IL, but I am not sure, the law is confusing.
Is it a reproduction or original.
If original then IL may not define it as a firearm, depending on the state police exemptions.

I had a long post with relevant sections of IL code, but lost it during a reboot.
Short of it is that in IL everything is a FIREARM, black powder, air guns over 700fps/.18 cal, etc.
A short barrel rifle is now easier to build in IL (was available before in very limited circumstances).
The relevant codes do not refer to making a handgun a short barrel rifle, so I would look to federal codes on that.
So the questions becomes- If IL does not specifically regulate turning a handgun into a rifle, but relies on federal definitions, and the feds do not consider a black powder gun a FIREARM, what does that mean in IL?

Whatever the Judge decides.

There is probably much more buried in the statutes that I did not find in a quick search earlier, but it would probably just confuse the issue more, our laws do not make much sense when written and even less after being amended over the years.

Then again there may be something in there that specifically allows this and I haven't found it yet.

But since it seems that you are in Texas it should be Ok.
Some of us have to deal with more issues than others.

Matt

[doc1876]

Yes. I could not post very well at the time. while it is indeed legal in Illinois that doesn't mean it's legal everywhere in the state they violate every law they can. stay in Texas and enjoy it

[mjwcaster]

Yes. I could not post very well at the time. while it is indeed legal in Illinois that doesn't mean it's legal everywhere in the state they violate every law they can. stay in Texas and enjoy it

Would you mind pointing out how you know that this would be legal?

Like I have found, since it is blackpowder, it is considered a FIREARM in IL, unless original and EXEMPTED.

So unless there is some other exemption I am missing, I would assume that it is illegal, as IL sees no difference between a cap and ball revolver and a new glock.

The only thing is that IL did not word their laws the best, so it depends on how they view a SBR.

Just trying to learn.
The more I learn about the law here, the more confused I get.

Matt

[GhostHawk]

Only thing I've seen pertaining to this is that it is indeed not legal to take a rifle, and make it a pistol.

However, there is nothing that I know of in the law about taking a pistol and making it a rifle. Aka TC Contender.

[mjwcaster]

But a rifle has to have a 16" barrel, per federal law.
So unless you put a long barrel on your pistol, by adding just a stock you have just created an unregistered/untaxed short barrel rifle.
It also makes things a mess if you are trying to make an AR pistol.
You have to keep track of how the paperwork was filled out when purchased.

I'll be the first to say that this whole mess should be dropped, but for now it is what it is.

Fun historical Fact-
Do you know why we have the barrel length restrictions?
Because the first drafts of the 1934 National Firearms Act (NFA) banned handguns (ok so they highly regulated them just as fully automatic firearms).

If handguns were banned, the thinking was that people would just shorten rifles and shotguns, so they added barrel length restrictions.
Then dropped the handgun ban from the bill, but not the rifle/shotgun barrel length restrictions.

So there never was a valid for the restrictions in the first place, once the handgun prohibition was dropped.

[RogerDat]

The state police are your best source, they will know the state laws. Write down the name of the trooper you speak to, better done in person. Then you will have seen a badge number. Keep the name and badge number in your records in case it ever comes up. I should also point out that assuming you can present yourself well at a police station you will probably get good thoughtful consideration of your question. Where they consider how you might screw up an otherwise legal situation. In short more complete advice than you will get on the phone.

Don't forget the old guy busted for a freaking flintlock he was transporting. I think it was NJ.

[mjwcaster]

The state police are your best source, they will know the state laws.
...


I am glad I wasn't taking a drink when I read this.
I still managed to choke.

Maybe your state is better, but I would never take a law enforcement officers word on the law, about anything.

I have experienced too many LEO's, even at the state level and even those teaching about the law who didn't have a clue, to put it nicely.
And I have called down to their offices in the capitol to voice my concerns about specific instances before. Sometimes things were even straightened out.

Illinois state police told me in writing with picture illustrations to break federal law to meet their student information requirements for my concealed carry class.

They sent out an information packet to all CCW instructors on how to keep our records, and in writing with picture illustrations (did I mention this) showed a copy of a current issue US military ID.
It is against federal law to make copies of this ID for any reason other than some medical/insurance reasons.

They freaking told and gave instructions to every CCW instructor in the state advising them to break Federal law.

And to my knowledge they have never revised their documentation, at least I never got an update.

There is no way I would ever trust an answer from an LEO, it is not their job to understand the law. Just enforce it. Sounds stupid, but that is the way it seems to work.

And unfortunately that is where everyone wants to turn for answers, is an officer of the law.

Written documentation from the States Attorney General, then maybe you have something.

And even then I have seen instructions for arrest/charges disseminated to the police put out by a counties states attorney general that was so full of inaccuracies it wasn't even funny.
But it was crook county, so it was no surprise.

[beroen]

I would do that here in CA and not be worried one bit. like someone said they are not considered firearms by the letter of the law untell you do that one thing they don't want you to do. and that is carry one around on your person then all of a sudden they are firearms and not C&R

[RogerDat]

You are primarily concerned with enforcement. Here in Mich. being able to tell an officer that I went and talked to officer smith at post #23 and I was following his advice on what was appropriate or acceptable. Was this incorrect? What should I do differently officer? In the case of the OP since it is a C & B I would offer to remove the cylinder and store it elsewhere (if it wasn't already) in order to disable it as a firearm. Maybe offer to contact our local county sheriff when I get home to get clarification and have them contact the officer to keep them in the loop.

Always a chance you are going to be dealing with the lower end of the bell curve in the profession, or someone who has bad information or attitude but generally showing a little respect, cooperation and lack of criminal intent goes a long way toward resolving the issue with the person that gets to decide if it becomes an issue or not.

Best way I know to confirm transport requirements when going through several states is the state police. Just pack in a manner that covers the most restrictive state you are going through. One of the reasons I'm not going to or through a few places. Beating hunting knife into plowshares seems like a hassle :-)

[doc1876]

Would you mind pointing out how you know that this would be legal?

Like I have found, since it is blackpowder, it is considered a FIREARM in IL, unless original and EXEMPTED.

So unless there is some other exemption I am missing, I would assume that it is illegal, as IL sees no difference between a cap and ball revolver and a new glock.

The only thing is that IL did not word their laws the best, so it depends on how they view a SBR.

Just trying to learn.
The more I learn about the law here, the more confused I get.

Matt


I understand, I am saying that in certain counties what you are saying is true. I will confess that there have been numerous times in this state I laid my head on my pillow knowing everything was right in the world, and woke up the next morning to find out that I became a criminal over night.
That being said, it is quite possible the whole state did indeed make cap and ball a firearm, I do know that down here in the south part, I can still buy one off the shelves with no problem, however, I am not allowed to buy the powder unless I have the IFOID card.

[MtGun44]

Police FREQUENTLY have zero clue about what the law is in obscure situations.

Trusting that is nuts. Since state makes the non-gun into a gun, it would seem
to be a state issue as to whether the stock is legal to use or not. The Feds DO
NOT CARE, as far as they are concerned it is not a gun. So only the state
LEOs will be enforcing this, if anybody cares. State attorney general's office
would be a legit source, and a letter from them that it is OK is golden. I'd
make a copy and keep it with the gun if you can get them to do it.

[bullet maker 57]

There is Federal law about transporting a firearm. States are supposed to honor the transportation guidelines(HAHA). I carry the documentation in my truck at all times just in case.

PS. In NY a cap and ball is not a gun until the components are in the same place. It has to be on your pistol permit to be legal. Definetly no shoulder stock.

[mjwcaster]

I understand, I am saying that in certain counties what you are saying is true. I will confess that there have been numerous times in this state I laid my head on my pillow knowing everything was right in the world, and woke up the next morning to find out that I became a criminal over night.
That being said, it is quite possible the whole state did indeed make cap and ball a firearm, I do know that down here in the south part, I can still buy one off the shelves with no problem, however, I am not allowed to buy the powder unless I have the IFOID card.

That is backwards from everything i can find in the law.
Il FOID Act (http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/ilcs3.asp?ActID=1657&ChapterID=39)-
430 ILCS 65/1.1 (Definitions)

"Firearm" means any device, by whatever name known, which is designed to expel a projectile or projectiles by the action of an explosion, expansion of gas or escape of gas; excluding, however:
----------
"Firearm ammunition" means any self-contained cartridge or shotgun shell, by whatever name known, which is designed to be used or adaptable to use in a firearm; excluding, however

--------

So the FOID act definition of firearm includes black powder guns, since they work by the expansion of gas or explosion.

And it has for as long as I can remember.

And I have seen other sources that agree, IIRC even the state police web site/brochures used to address this question, but they have been wrong/out of date before.

But the definition of ammunition does not include black powder, since it is not self contained.

No where have I ever seen any FOID requirement for black powder, but it sure may be buried somewhere.

So if there are stores in IL selling black powder firearms without requiring a FOID, they are not following the law.

Same as I have seen pellet guns that are defined as FIREARMS (over .18cal/700fps) in IL for sale on the shelf in some IL stores, especially chain stores.
Even though they are doing it, does not make it legal.

And this where there are more issues with the law, just because someone says it is Ok or is doing it, does not make it legal.

I was just reading on another forum about threaded barrels in CA. The original poster contacted the states attorney general and they passed the buck to the local sheriff's department.
The local sherrif's department told him that a threaded barrel does make it an 'assault weapon' but people are doing it and you probably won't get in trouble.

That would be a great defense in court.

Personally I think all these laws are stupid, but I do want people to understand the law, and then they can make their own decisions.

How many people realize that putting a cheap plastic forward grip on a pistol like an AR-15 pistol is a federal violation, creating an unregistered AOW (any other weapon).
Same fore grip on your rifle is ok.

[RogerDat]

Police FREQUENTLY have zero clue about what the law is in obscure situations.

Trusting that is nuts. Since state makes the non-gun into a gun, it would seem
to be a state issue as to whether the stock is legal to use or not. The Feds DO
NOT CARE, as far as they are concerned it is not a gun. So only the state
LEOs will be enforcing this, if anybody cares. State attorney general's office
would be a legit source, and a letter from them that it is OK is golden. I'd
make a copy and keep it with the gun if you can get them to do it.

Something from the state attorney general's office be it a letter or an email printed off would be the best you can probably do. Better than the state police but more hassle. It won't stop someone who really wants to give you a hassle but you just smile and call an attorney, knowing your attorney will have pretty solid evidence for your case.

[mjwcaster]

I just found some more info on IL law regarding definition of 'Antique Firearm', which may be why muzzle loaders can be found on the shelves of stores here.
It would not apply to Black Powder Cartridge guns, though.
Title 20, Section 1230.10, "Definitions" (http://www.ilga.gov/commission/jcar/admincode/020/020012300000100R.html)
"Antique firearm" shall have the meaning ascribed to it in 18 USC 921(a)(16), i.e.: any firearm, including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system, manufactured in or before 1898; or any replica of any firearm described in the previous paragraph if the replica: is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition; or uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition that is no longer manufactured in the United States and that is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol that is designed to use black powder or a black powder substitute and that cannot use fixed ammunition.

The term "antique firearm" shall not include any weapon that incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm that is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon that can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock or any combination of these.
----

I'm not sure I would have ever found this myself, someone else posted it on another forum.
Goes to show how hard it is to understand the law, read the law, read a different law, then find the definitions page.