Jamming boolits into revolver throats

[44man]

I shot a pile of boolits today sized to jam into the start of my revolver throats. Sort of like contacting the rifling in a rifle. My throats are .4324 so I made the boolits .4335 and seated out to touch.
I did not find any improvement over .430, .431 or .432 boolits seated normally. In fact almost every group was larger then what I normally get.
At this point I don't like all the extra work for no gain.
Leading was only a few small pieces like normal.
It looks like I will just go back to my regular loading process.
But it was fun to try. I had a bunch of my older loads left and I shot them all up on steel and those little water bottles at 100 yd's.
Darn, now I need to cast again! :Fire:

[leftiye]

How about maybe the BRer's 1/32 short of the forcing cone, or just enough to not make contact? Not trying to get anyone to do more work, just a suggestion. On the surface, either one sounds like a good idea (maybe in combination with neck sized brass). I think I'll look at this idea in my future reloading for revolters.

[Bass Ackward]

Sometimes the answer is yes. And sometimes ...................

[44man]

They didn't shoot that bad but acted strange. I would have 3 in 1/2" and then 2 would go a little high. The next group would have 3 in 1/2" and 2 would go a little low. The shots alternated, like I shot from one spot to the other and back again.
I made up some goofy boolits for my Marlin to test. They have 2 gas checks! :roll:

[Johnch]

They didn't shoot that bad but acted strange. I would have 3 in 1/2" and then 2 would go a little high. The next group would have 3 in 1/2" and 2 would go a little low. The shots alternated, like I shot from one spot to the other and back again. :roll:

I was wondering if the bullet was centered
But the sized case allowed a slight tipping of the case in the chamber ?


For grinns I have 25 44 Mag cases I only sized 3/8" , but fired in a Contender barrel
I just expanded them enough to get the bullet in straight without damaging it

I am hoping the fire formed case centers the bullet better
I have not had a chance to shoot these for accuracy yeat
As there is still to much snow on the range

Not sure if you could do this with a wheel gun

John

[Bass Ackward]

They didn't shoot that bad but acted strange. I would have 3 in 1/2" and then 2 would go a little high. The next group would have 3 in 1/2" and 2 would go a little low. The shots alternated, like I shot from one spot to the other and back again.
I made up some goofy boolits for my Marlin to test. They have 2 gas checks! :roll:



Yes. Supermag had this same issue awhile back too. My theory is as johnch says, centering being the main factor. Another thing that works against this is how smooth your ramps are at the end of the chambers. These can remain rough for many rounds if no bullet contact has been made based upon how you shoot normally. When it works, the results can be dramatic improvement. Certainly worth trying before you give up on a mold or a gun.

As a side note, there was a guy out in Ohio that told me he sized .439 (no typo) for his .429 bore because they would chamber and was producing 4" groups at 200 yards. He was a clang banger. That would certainly polish those ramps.

2 checks? Just like Santa. :grin:

[44man]

I only neck size my brass so that the back of the case is tight.
That is interesting about the large boolit but a special mold is needed. My largest is .434".
That is what I am testing for my BPCR, using a .464" boolit.
I don't know if that is the answer because back in my IHMSA days I shot a lot of groups that size on the rams at 200 meters just using .430" Hornady bullets and I have had a lot with my BFR's, The last time I shot my .475 with my WFN at 200 yd's I had a 2-5/16" group. With a 4 minute Ultra Dot no less.
Doesn't happen too often, even 1" at 50 yd's is not done all the time and that is what I have been trying to cure all these years. Nobody can ever say they can do it on demand.
I have an old article where they went to extraordinary lengths to make a revolver that would shoot 1" groups at 100 yd's. Even then they did not do it all the time.
I have shot enough 1" and under groups at 100 yd's with factory guns that I consider the expense to build a special gun a waste of money. A lot of guns will do it right out of the box. I shot a bunch of pop cans at 200 yd's with my SRH.
The cure is going to be in the ammo and since most guys just throw revolver ammo together, they never know what their gun will do. If it goes bang and hits close at 25 yd's, a lot of guys are happy and I don't want to take anything away from them, they have fun! :drinks: My problem is that what I learned shooting IHMSA stuck with me so I will never give up and will never be happy. I have shot so good with .430 bullets/boolits in my .430 bore and also with larger boolits and all kinds of alloys that I will never say you need this or that and nothing else will work. I am convinced the brass itself is where it is at. How the brass is handled is important. My brass is old, I can't buy new brass every time I shoot so there is just no way to make each piece the same as the other.
Might have to use the benchrest tricks and load just certain cases at the bench over and over.
This is not to take away from finding the right boolit, lube, powder, load, primer, alloy, etc, because that has to be done first for each gun. It is AFTER the work when the brass problems crop up. Once you start to get a bunch of fantastic groups at ridiculous ranges, it is time to go out of your mind to make it happen ALL the time. [smilie=1: Does no good to sit and stare at your boolits! :mrgreen: Better to stare at the brass, get a big hammer! :coffee:

[cbrick]

No doubt 44man is right about the brass and about having the revolver and load that will do it in the first place.

There is another factor that I've always had to consider and work with when trying to shoot and/or repeat 2 or 3 inch 200 meter revolver groups. That other factor is me. To shoot five consecutive rounds into a group like that takes a very, very high level of concentration for each shot just as in bench rest shooting. Everything involved from the rest to grip, trigger and every single aspect of a good shot has to be there for every shot and from day to day that's tough to do. Many times I have shot a 2 or 3 inch 200 meter group scoped from the bench and the next day with the same box of ammo cannot do better than 6 or 7 inches. Another day still using the same box of ammo it'll do 2 or 3 inches again and there is no doubt in my mind that the difference is me. I've done enough of this type of shooting that I can usually tell immediately after shooting a group if my concentration level was as good as it should have been on every one of the five shots, the groups normally match that conclusion.

I doubt I am unusual in this, maybe I am but I cannot get and hold my concentration level to the needed high degree every single time I go to the range. Sometimes it's just not there.

I'm not talking about thinking about what your doing, of coarse you are. I'm talking about an extradonary level of concentration that comes from years of competition and group shooting. The top shooters in every disipline get to this level of concentration quicker and maintain it longer, that's why they are the top shooters. When I'm shooting in a championship match and my level of concentration is where it should be I have complete tunnel vision, my mind blanks out everything except rear sight, front sight, target, grip, trigger. I don't hear people talking or even other guns. There is no next shot, no last shot, there is not even me at the firing line, these 5 things are the universe, there is nothing else in the universe.

Tough to do, much harder yet to do it every time. I call it getting my brain right and truth be told sometimes the worst piece of equipment I can take to the firing line with me is my brain, I'll talk myself out of perfectly good shots everytime by simply letting my concentration slip just a little.

Rick

[44man]

You forgot the most important thing though---VISION! :-?
I used to be able to focus on the front sight, rear sight and also the target all at once. As the years have gone by, one thing and then the next sort of disappeared. Now even with glasses, some days I see sharper then other days. Some days I wonder if someone stole my sights.
Even the red dot gets fuzzy as all get out and I need a huge target at 200 yd's.
I need new glasses before BPCR shoots start. It gets tougher every year.
That in itself might be the cause of some of my shots out of the group.
Cbrick is right about keeping it all together every time, you just can't let up. On those days you can't see good, nothing can be done. I find most of my problems with age is when shooting offhand. Some days I can hold pretty still, other days some gremlin is shaking the hell out of my gun.
If there is one big secret to shooting, it is DON'T GET OLD! :mrgreen:

[felix]

Offhand are days gone by, especially when you cannot see. With your experience, 44man, your guesstimation of where the target is, is plenty sufficient. ... felix

[cbrick]

Sure got this thread off subject but yep 44man, I know all about the eyes. I had to stop shooting matches and went to the bench with a scope and did that until both the target and the cross hairs got too fuzzy. Eyes got worse and worse and I kept blaming diabetes till I couldn't even drive anymore. Not driving is tough, I drive for a living. Finally got off my hieny and went to see an ophthalmologist and was told I was legally blind, now that puts a serious crimp on shooting.

Several tests (and weeks) later determined there was no diabetes eye damage, it was all cataracts and very correctable. One eye surgery at a time and in six months including all the tests and it’s a whole new world. 20/20 in one eye and 20/25 in the other. As better as life is now it’s not perfect for shooting, lens replacement gives you the best distance vision that your eyes are capable of while removing close up vision. I can use shooting glasses and the sights look great except no target. So that's my choice now, no glasses and the target looks good but no sights, glasses and the sights look good but no target. Oh well, back to the bench with a scope testing and experimenting, not too bad a deal considering what the alternative was and how much better life is now.

The moral of the story is for anyone out there whose eyes are going south and have not had their eyes checked by an ophthalmologist, NOT an Optometrist you really should. Amazing things them Docs can do this day and age.

Rick

[floodgate]

cbrick:

Go back to your ophthalmologist and get a mid-distance prescription that will focus somewhat beyond your front sight, and let you see the target fairly well. An aperture rear sight will then clear things upto the point you can get shooting properly again. Been there, done that! That cataract surgery is sure great; had ours done (me and wife) about 15 years back, and everything has held up well since then.

floodgate

[cbrick]

floodgate,

I use the Champion brand shooting glasses with the aperture and have a box full of various interchangeable lens. It was with this system that I determined that with any combination of lens I had the sights or the target. The alternative is a compromise of both target and sights degrading both enough that in long range open sight handgun competition your in for a very long frustrating and not very fruitful day.

Rick

[44man]

I am 70 and have no signs of cataracts. For all of you sun worshipers, wear sunglasses at all times or you will get them.
The big problem with age is the lens gets hard and the muscles can't form it anymore. I wear lineless bifocals and by adjusting my head I can get everything in kind of good focus but your eyes get weaker with glasses and need replaced all the time.

[cbrick]

44man, have you spoken with an Ophthalmologist? What he may tell you could be well worth knowing. I'll say it again . . . Amazing things them Docs can do this day and age.

Rick

[TAWILDCATT]

Had the operation on left eye two marchs ago and last yr the right eye.next day took my 1911,looked at sights and the front ,rear and the target area were clear man I have never had sight like that in my life [83 yrs]I swear by the VA.great doctors.:coffee:--[smilie=1:----:Fire:

[floodgate]

cbrick:

Then you've got a tough one; maybe the pistol scope is your answer.

floodgate

[Johnch]

My Ophthalmologist gave me a pamplet about permant contacts

Since I can't ........Will not stick my finger onto my eye for normal contacts

I will have to talk to him abot them , he is a big time hunter and shooter

As I am due for new glasses

John

[44man]

No way I can wear contacts. I still have allergy problems, I would rub them things so they would have to look in my ears for them. :mrgreen: