Anyone travel outside the US with fireamrs recently?

[elk hunter]

There is a new? US Customs Service requirement that you must first obtain an export permit in order to take your personal firearms out of the US to hunt abroad. The old rule of needing a Customs certificate of ownership to bring them back apparently is not enough though you still need that certificate.

After considerable looking at the AES (Automated Export Service) rules I'm still not sure what exactly you must do in order to be in compliance.

Anyone done this? Any tips or advice?

[waksupi]

Call or email the US Customs Service. They will help you out. Which country are you headed for?

https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/323/kw/travel



What is the process for a traveler temporarily taking a firearm, rifle, gun, shotgun or ammunition abroad for hunting purposes?

To temporarily export a firearm, regulations require that the traveler declare their firearms to CBP using the Automated Export System (AES). AES has a free web-based internet application known as AESDirect that allows the traveling public to make their declarations electronically. The submission of the information is known as the Electronic Export Information. The travelers must file their declarations for controlled commodities, including rifles, handguns, and associated ammunition, at least eight hours prior to their departure from the United States. The export of shotguns can be made up to two hours prior to departure from the United States. Under the Department of State regulations, 22 CFR Parts 120-130 the export of rifles, handguns and associated ammunition is controlled. Under the Department of Commerce regulations, 15 CFR Parts 730-779, the export of shotguns and shotgun shells are also controlled, depending upon the destination.

The phone number for the Dept. of State Help Desk is 202-663-2838

The phone number for the Dept. of Commerce, Exporter Services is 202-482-4811

More information about using AESDirect can be found at http://aesdirect.census.gov/

CBP advises travelers to become familiar with the importing requirements of the countries that they may be traveling through or visiting. The countries may have more restrictive laws and regulations regarding the use of firearms within their countries.

The traveler may also have a Certificate of Registration completed, CBP Form 4457. This document is supplemental support document for the declaration and entry of the firearm(s) upon return to the United States. However, it does not meet the requirements for export.

Upon returning to the United States, the traveler will make a regular declaration regarding the personal effects and goods that they are carrying and ensure that they declare any firearms and ammunition. To satisfy the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives requirements for the re-importation of a firearm please refer to 27 CFR 478.115(a). The ATF regulations allow for the use of the CF 4457 upon re-importation, and does not require an approved import permit (ATF-6), provided that CBP is satisfied that the firearm was previously exported from the United States and is now being returned. To establish such proof, a bill of sale, receipt, copy of ATF Form 4473, household effects inventory, packing list, or registration on Customs Forms 4457 or 4455 may be used, if the registration form is completed prior to departure from the U.S. For military personnel, a properly executed Department of Defense Form 12521 signed by either the serviceman's commanding officer or an authorized Customs officer may be used. The acceptability of such proof is within the purview of the Customs officials at the port of entry.

Customs and Border Protection (CBP) advises travelers to register their firearms prior to taking them overseas to expedite clearance upon their return to the United States.

[shooter93]

Do what Ric says....the customs dept. will probably be the most help. When I went to Zimbabwe the outfitter supplied me with everything we needed but I don't know where you're going or if it is a hunt or not. I was surprised how easily it was to move through various countries in Africa with firearms. They actually had a better system than we do.

[MtGun44]

Not new, I had to do it 10 years ago. Took the guns up to the Customs location,
filled out forms, they looked at them and signed and stamped the papers. This is so you
can prove you exported them so you can bring them back without hassle - otherwise
they would be considered "importing a firearm" and that is some giant bureacratic
boondoggle you do not want to learn about.

Also, some other countries require some sort of ownership proof paperwork and cannot
get their heads around the fact that in Free America, no such documents are required
or exist. Maybe in NJ or DC or Cali or NYC, but not in Free America. They wanted
our "gun registration" and since there is no such thing, there is a serious problem that
the Customs form solves.

Not sure the system is the same, so - as recommended above - call Customs and
ask. They were very helpful all through the process for me.

[fouronesix]

Yep, this one really smells! Call it "soft" registration, harassment, poorly cloaked intimidation or whatever. Seems since the current @!*!#$!&s in DC can't go straight after the 2nd Amend., they're perfectly happy with chipping away at the edges like this. Maybe a "get even" after the push back over "Fast and Furious".

Currently, all the hunting travel agents and booking agents are working very hard and working overtime to get through this. I'm currently in process right now. First you have to go onto the US gov site to register for an EIN as "Sole Proprietor" and for "AES Purposes Only". That's right, the IRS is also in this up to their eyeballs. I can only figure everyone is afraid of them so will comply like sheep. The EIN form is easy to complete online and takes about 15 minutes. But there is not a single issue relating to non-business recreational hunting and travel with a firearm involved here that has anything to do with the job or charter of the IRS. Of course not!! Guess which agency is in charge of Ocare compliance. But that doesn't seem to matter with our gov these days. The IRS is a good place for the powers that be to start simply because they have the power and know compliance of the sheeple will follow. Also, if the media picks it up, expect little understanding- they (and probably most of the American public) probably think people shouldn't be allowed to travel with firearms, much less hunt internationally. You know- just a bunch of old, fat, rich white guys. (think easy target of opportunity)

Anyway, once you get the EIN, the process gets even more convoluted. I'm using a booking agent, a hunting travel agent and Coppersmith for completing the hoop jumping. There are several hunting travel agents and hunting booking agents out there. Most all of them are in the loop, so I strongly advise using them for working through this latest iteration of nonsense (insanity).

Rant could continue but must be restrained :x, so rant over and good luck Amerika.

[MtGun44]

Strange. I went up to the Customs offices with the guns, three rifles and a pistol and
had it done by helpful agents in about 30 min total. Perhaps it has changed.

Personally, I understand that other countries have much more restrictive laws and REQUIRE
some sort of official ownership/registration documentation and US Customs wants to know
that you actually took the guns out when you are bringing them back. Two birds with one
stone.

Once took a few months old EXPENSIVE camera to the US Virgin Islands without proof of ownership,
had no concept that it would be helpful. Had quite a discussion with 4 Customs agents upon my
return because I didn't know that USVI was a duty free zone and high end Jap cameras were big
sellers down there at low prices, but need to pay duty when you bring them back. A proof of export
document would have helped a lot. They almost confiscated the camera right there and had me
fight it out via mail and such. . . . . . fortunately I won the discussion.

[fouronesix]

Strange. I went up to the Customs offices with the guns, three rifles and a pistol and
had it done by helpful agents in about 30 min total. Perhaps it has changed.


Yes it has!! That was the reason for the OP and the posts in this thread. It is due to go into effect May 1. And there has even been confusion with in BP-Customs as to that date- (naw, couldn't happen).

Before, you simply went to a US Port of Entry Customs office and presented personal items which could require proof of ownership upon return to the US- like cameras, scopes, electronics, firearms, binocs, etc. You presented those items to Customs before departure and they would record the info and you would receive a Form 4457. You presented that form for those items upon return to the US.

This is a completely different and new requirement which is pointed straight at firearms/ammo. You have to get a separate, sole proprietor EIN from the IRS. Then you apply through the AES system (Customs, Automated Export System) for clearance to travel internationally with and return with your firearm and ammo.

Like fitting a round peg into a square hole- but the bureaucrats and politicians are good at that as it creates job security for even greater numbers of bureaucrats.

[xacex]

Wow, being a dual citizen with Canada it looks like it would be less hassle for me to take the firearms acquisition licence and purchase my firearm up there to go hunting. Do they have gun safe deposit boxes up there so I can just keep a firearm ready for me when I visit lol.
Edit: Took an online exam practice test for both the non-restricted,, and restricted firearms. Scored 100% on both of them in about 5 minutes. Thier system is a joke,but I can see how someone unfamiliar with firearms could have a difficult time.

[fouronesix]

An update on this fiasco. Apparently the C-BP has at least temporarily backed down on fully implementing the AES system for international travel of US citizens with guns. The SCI, NRA, NSSF and others had a small victory in this battle. A battle centering around the Feds creating a bureaucracy to address a problem that doesn't exist- sound familiar? Who knows how this will finally end up though. So, looks like hunters will be allowed to continue to use the 4457 for such purposes…. at least for time being.

http://www.hoeven.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/2015/4/hoeven-u-s-hunters-no-longer-required-to-register-with-irs-to-take-personal-firearms-on-international-hunts

[montana_charlie]

I saw a news item yesterday which said Obama has pulled out of his push for this change in requirements to take guns out of the country.

[dragon813gt]

I saw a news item yesterday which said Obama has pulled out of his push for this change in requirements to take guns out of the country.

So what is he up to now? You'd think he'd want firearms taken out of the country and then just deny them re-entry. Sure it's a small number but every one counts.

[montana_charlie]

Here is the news story I saw yesterday.
http://thehill.com/regulation/administration/239850-hunting-rule-withdrawn-by-customs


This might be a helpful 'quiz' for any who are wondering what is required for carrying personal firearms out of the country.
https://www.ice.gov/exec/ice-gov/cpiquiz.htm

[fouronesix]

What's wrong is revealed in the ICE quiz and it's premise as it pertains (or doesn't) to an individual US citizen traveling internationally with firearm or ammo for no other purpose than to hunt (or even shoot competitively for that matter).

Kudos to Senator John Hoeven, R- ND for pushing this and calling out the Fed administrator in the hearing. Of course he (the administrator) "had no idea it was such a stooopid idea to begin with" (even though he is the boss of that division). Too bad it won't go higher but no chance of that. Plausible deniability for the boss don't you know- set up the power and boogie man mentality then let the underling spear catchers run with it and take the heat when challenged. Still has the odor of a probe for weakness since they know they can't go head-on at the 2nd A- just a jab at a perceived soft target. What's said about absolute power……? I just hope there aren't "face saving" and "coup counting" deals being drawn up to ease the bruised egos.


Again, all in all, seems like a bureaucracy empowering itself by creating more bureaucracy to address a problem that doesn't exist.

[montana_charlie]

This is the web version of the NRA-ILA newsletter for today.
The first article touches upon this topic.
https://www.nraila.org/email/grassroots-alerts/2015/vol-22-no-16-04242015/

[elk hunter]

Just saw it myself. I'm going to call customs on Monday just to make sure.

[BwBrown]

Strange. I went up to the Customs offices with the guns, three rifles and a pistol and
had it done by helpful agents in about 30 min total. Perhaps it has changed.

Personally, I understand that other countries have much more restrictive laws and REQUIRE
some sort of official ownership/registration documentation and US Customs wants to know
that you actually took the guns out when you are bringing them back. Two birds with one
stone.

Once took a few months old EXPENSIVE camera to the US Virgin Islands without proof of ownership,
had no concept that it would be helpful. Had quite a discussion with 4 Customs agents upon my
return because I didn't know that USVI was a duty free zone and high end Jap cameras were big
sellers down there at low prices, but need to pay duty when you bring them back. A proof of export
document would have helped a lot. They almost confiscated the camera right there and had me
fight it out via mail and such. . . . . . fortunately I won the discussion.

The change, as I understand it (or not) is as recent as this year.
Up till this $#!7, I was looking forward to a bear hunt in New Brunswick.
It all has gotten (maybe too) complicated for me to go.
An EIN??!!??

[fishhawk]

My last hunt for moose in Canada in 2009 all I needed was the temporary PAL from the Canadian customs to bring mine back and that was good for 60 days. Going to be a lot of hunts that are planed or being a dream of doing that will not happen.

[TXGunNut]

Don't let an EIN stop you, I had to get one to handle my dad's estate and it's no big deal.
OTOH I recently heard a hunting story from a guy who simply borrowed/rented a rifle from the outfitter. As much as I'd like to hunt with my own rifles and ammo I think I'm make an exception if I went to Africa. I can't think of a single rifle I'd like to lose to a bureaucratic mess.

[fouronesix]

[smilie=b:
Yep, renting or borrowing a rifle/shotgun while out of country is an option and always has been. This whole thing really has little to do with permitting required while in your destination country. Each country has their own permitting system for firearms and ammo when in that country- has been that way for a long time. It's not just the various African countries but any country… like Canada for deer, bear or caribou or Argentina for stag or birds or New Zealand for stag or Australia for water buffalo, etc. It has to do with a US citizen traveling from and back to the US with their own gun or ammo.

When not using your own, obviously you have to use what is available for the gun and ammo… which ranges from OK to poor. No familiarity with the firearm or caliber. Limited caliber options. How about an old beat up open sighted 375, 458 or 9.3 for hunting plains game ranging for duiker to kudu??? Old ammo, questionable bullets. The availability or options for quality or appropriate ammo in most foreign countries ranges from limited to nearly non-existent. I've seen some very poor results (1st hand!!) when borrowed/rented/available guns and ammo have been used- including botched clean killing of elephants and crippled and lost cape buffalo.

Getting an EIN from the IRS takes about 10 minutes on the net. But, what in the world does the IRS have to do with a US citizen simply traveling with a personal firearm or ammo??? AGAIN, after you get the EIN (the easy part) you have to get registered within the AES system and in effect become an Exporter/Importer for this kind of travel (an even more convoluted system)…. never mind that traveling with your own firearm and ammo has nothing to do with Import or Export!!! That is the crux of the problem and the basic insanity of the proposed policy/law/regulation/rule!!!

Thank goodness, SCI, NRA, NSSF, etc. and Sen Hoeven carried the issue, via a Senate hearing, right to the C-BP and the administrator backed down…. at least temporarily.

[BwBrown]

fouronesix,
You stated it much more succinctly than I - thanks.

It does appear that they have backed down for the time being.
It was just getting "bureaucratic-stupid!"
I've made a deposit on a first time in my life Canada hunting trip/retirement present to myself this fall. I'm really hoping it works out.