Neck tension with cast bullets - how important?

[Bjornb]

I've been struggling with accuracy in my 30 XCB rifle lately; having changed several variables (seldom a good thing) and wondering how to get my mojo back.

An issue that's been brought up from time to time is felt neck tension when expanding the neck prior to loading, and I decided to perform a small experiment to see if different felt neck tension would make a difference on the target.

I had just finished prepping a batch of 200 fired cases, all from the same initial W-W batch. Neck sizing (Lee collet), inside neck polishing (0000 steel wool), primer pocket uniforming, re-chamfering with a new Lyman VLD chamfering tool, and cleaned with walnut media.

So using a custom expander from Goodsteel (.309"), I ran each case over the expander button and then sorted them into 3 groups: Light, medium and hard resistance when expanded. This was a subjective sorting and not everybody would have used the same "feel" criteria I used, but you get the idea.

I loaded up 3 strings of 10 shots each of the NOE XCB bullet. All 30 bullets were cast in the same session, and they all weighed the same: 153.4 grains when naked. Hornady gas checks, Lars 2700+ lube, and sized in a Buckshot .310 push thru die. Charge was 45 grains H-414. Here are the targets:

136746136747136748

The groups are nothing to write home about; I was pushing these bullets at a speed where accuracy normally starts to drop off with this rifle. What's more interesting to me was that the clear difference in felt neck tension did not seem to make a bit of difference where it counts: on the target.

[Yodogsandman]

Thanks for sharing your test. I like to see your results and sure hope that mojo comes back! I had thought that it was the felt resistance from boolit seating that was important but, never bothered with any testing. Just thought about it.

Another thing I think you've changed is using H414 instead of W760. Is the H414 from an older lot?

[Bjornb]

The locals ran out of 760. You better believe I'd like to pick up some. H-414 is SUPPOSED to be the same powder.......

[Yodogsandman]

Looks to be about 100 FPS difference and greater SD and ES from your earlier posts. Can you get any more powder in the case to see if it smooth's out with comparable velocities?

[35 shooter]

Years ago i had a rem. 7/08. I tried both 414 and 760 in it and 414 was the clear winner for groups, but at 100 fps. slower and less powder than 760. Both shot great though! 760 easily gave me another 100 fps. with almost as good accuracy, but not quite.
Just the difference in lots of powder? Different coating? Personally i think they are slightly different powders or different coatings. This was with jacketed bullets only at the time.
I've been trying to push the speed in my 35 whelen up a bit and picked up some 760 to try...we'll see.

[dtknowles]

.............3 groups: Light, medium and hard resistance when expanded. This was a subjective sorting and not everybody would have used the same "feel" criteria I used, but you get the idea.

I loaded up 3 strings of 10 shots each of the NOE XCB bullet. All 30 bullets were cast in the same session, and they all weighed the same: 153.4 grains when naked. Hornady gas checks, Lars 2700+ lube, and sized in a Buckshot .310 push thru die. Charge was 45 grains H-414. Here are the targets:

136746136747136748

The groups are nothing to write home about; I was pushing these bullets at a speed where accuracy normally starts to drop off with this rifle. What's more interesting to me was that the clear difference in felt neck tension did not seem to make a bit of difference where it counts: on the target.

I have great respect for your loading, shooting and reporting but I think you got it wrong this time. I think that while it is small the low neck tension loads were significantly if not greatly better than the others and judging by the groups it is reflected in the clustering as well as the group size. If you had not sorted them and fired them all mixed I think the groups would have been even larger.

Just an observation not a judgement.

Tim

[ascast]

I have great respect for your loading, shooting and reporting but I think you got it wrong this time. I think that while it is small the low neck tension loads were significantly if not greatly better than the others and judging by the groups it is reflected in the clustering as well as the group size. If you had not sorted them and fired them all mixed I think the groups would have been even larger.

Just an observation not a judgement.

Tim


looks like about a 10% reduction to me nice work and thanks for sharing

[TXGunNut]

When I feel a difference in case neck tension or see it on the target I bag up the brass and move on to a fresh batch of new brass. Some day I'll get around to annealing but I'll wait until I have a big bunch of brass that needs it.

[xvigauge]

Maybe it's just me, but I don't see much difference in any of the groups.
xvigauge

[runfiverun]

now if only you had a scale to measure that tension and it removed those flyers from the 'low' neck tension group.
or caught the other 6 that could have been in that group.
or sorted them into 5-6 shot groups of evenness..

this is the reason why those black powder silhouette shooters anneal their cases every time before they load them again.

[PAT303]

I can't help at all except to say if I could shoot 2'' 10 shot cast boolit groups at 100 at 2700fps I would be dancing a jig. Pat

[nekshot]

I agree, at that speed thats very good. I always thought with lube neck tension was better for powder burn(I think I was only mimicking others that know more than me) but with PC if a boolit feels differant when seating than the others, I can be sure that one will step out of the groub a little.

[Bjornb]

I have great respect for your loading, shooting and reporting but I think you got it wrong this time. I think that while it is small the low neck tension loads were significantly if not greatly better than the others and judging by the groups it is reflected in the clustering as well as the group size. If you had not sorted them and fired them all mixed I think the groups would have been even larger.

Just an observation not a judgement.

Tim

No offense taken Tim, I post this stuff so I can get feedback just like yours.

[Bjornb]

now if only you had a scale to measure that tension and it removed those flyers from the 'low' neck tension group.
or caught the other 6 that could have been in that group.
or sorted them into 5-6 shot groups of evenness..

this is the reason why those black powder silhouette shooters anneal their cases every time before they load them again.

Yeah, I'd love to have some kind of device for measuring the tension. And I'll be annealing these cases before next loading.

[44man]

now if only you had a scale to measure that tension and it removed those flyers from the 'low' neck tension group.
or caught the other 6 that could have been in that group.
or sorted them into 5-6 shot groups of evenness..

this is the reason why those black powder silhouette shooters anneal their cases every time before they load them again.
I noticed right away that this is the case. The amount of felt tension does not matter so much, what counts is that each round has the same as all the rest.
Much more important in revolvers because initial movement of the boolit is usually from primer pressure and there is nothing to retard that movement.
I have posted my way to measure many times and it works.136783136784 I use 1/8" piano wire (spring steel from the model airplane shop.) The small pin is held by a sliding link to the spring steel and has marks filed on. Just start a boolit barely and seat with the rod, it will bend and pull the pin through the handle and leave the faucet washer at a mark. Sort by marks. Reset the washer for each round.
You need to drill the handle and can use a stainless hose clamp at the bottom to hold the rod.
I can't figure an easier way until a strain gauge can be installed in the shell holders.
The next thing to look for in bottle neck brass is run out, you would not believe how much you can have. Much is caused by uneven brass thickness on the necks. Turn the necks and use good lube inside when you expand. A tight expander can bend shoulders.

[44man]

Another thing I forgot to add, handle weight can take over so catch it and any crimp is done with the handle.

[largom]

I also see a slight improvement in the low neck tension group. One thing I would suggest is to weigh sort the cases after sizing and trim. Heavy and light cases, due to brass thickness, will give different velocities and effect your group.

Larry

[44man]

I have done all of it, sorting brass, weighing boolits, neck size, FL and found you are working in thousandths of an inch improvement. Most is not worth the effort unless you are a BR shooter or shoot the .22's. I quit all of it but I will not deter you from it but most is psychological. That does help too. I have more problems with age and shaking now to worry about it. I wish I knew all when I was young. Cast takes more knowledge. Time slips away!

[Blackwater]

I've never done any neck tension tests, but it's been obvious that varying neck tensions CAN and DO affect group sizes. I've always assumed it was because any difference in how the bullet starts out, makes a difference in how it lands on the target. I'd anneal whenever it appeared to be called for I mostly use an old non-compound leverage RCBS Reloader Special press, and prefer it to the compound leverage types because it gives me more feedback as I pull the handle. I can tell when necks are getting hard and need annealing, but I have to really pay attention to do it. It gives me more feedback in crimping, too, when I do that.

However, I have a question that applies here: Different powders ignite more or less easily and readily. That's a given, and I've always assumed that the required neck tension for the harder to ignite powders should PROBABLY require more neck tension, and the easier to ignite ones less neck tension. Is anyone aware of any experiments that would prove this out??? I can't recall any, but my CRS disease makes that pretty much a given these days, so I thought I'd ask.

[44man]

Yes it can but not as much as you think. I was able to shoot the same size groups with a lighter tension as a tighter one but poi could be 10" different. Seems even is more important. You can not anneal revolver bass because you lose tension and rifle brass depends on a few degrees to be the same. One case can be red hot while another just changes color. so how do you control the anneal?

[waksupi]

I adjust neck tension by the amount I size the necks.

[44man]

How would you determine what each piece of brass needs sized to?
I bet the OP's problem is run out, did he run case necks under a dial indicator, cant measure on a boolit because none are round, Did he at least roll them on the bench? Since a boolit must be .002" or less, necks must have less.

[MBTcustom]

I am designing a special neck expanding die that will measure the pressure required to pull the mandrel from the necks. This has been done before, but I've not seen it utilized with bottle necked, HV, cast bullet cartridges.
Many have sorted by seating pressure, but I can't help wondering if seating pressure might be different than pull pressure (not only relatively different, but dynamically different. ie: the brass may be sorted differently using pull pressure verses insertion pressure).
By measuring the pressure required to pull the expanding mandrel from the neck of the brass, you have a much better measure of what the bullet will be experiencing........theoretically.
Does it make a difference?
I want to answer that question.

[popper]

wondering if seating pressure might be different than pull pressure. Definitely should be, not expanding the neck when pulling. If not neck turned for consistency in thickness, how do you know? Seems like the easiest test would be to seat dummies, cut the case off & push the boolit out. I US clean and don't polish the neck inside - which I assume you do to decrease neck tension (or make more consistent)? I also assume the 30XCB is throat fitted and into the lands, IMHO that is all the back pressure that is needed? In my BO testing it APPEARS that accuracy increases on the second firing of candle annealed brass. I don't use Lino but have notices some accuracy problems from chambering high Sb (5%) cast - suspect micro fractures when loaded into a autoloader, from runout problems. Just some ideas to ponder.

[fredj338]

I think consistent neck tension, jacketed or lead, is important for really good, repeatable accuracy. The issue is how to measure it. So I just sort my cases by headstamp for precision rifle & keep track of number of times fired.

[Bjornb]

Lots of good points from 44 Man. However my runout is good, both neck and bullet less than 2/1000, many show zero on Goodsteel's excellent runout gauge. These cases have 5 firings since last annealing, and as I said earlier I'll be annealing them this week to see if this improves the results. After annealing and inside neck polishing I'll be loading them unsorted.

[Mk42gunner]

It would be interesting to see how the cases react to sizing after firing- if you still have them segregated.

What I am wondering is if the brass has the same relative tension or not. Somehow I think that will make a difference, but we may just find out that you need to anneal that lot of brass more often.

Robert

[44man]

Good to hear run out is good.
Pull tension of a spud MIGHT say something so I will wait for results.
Somethings need considered too, like boolit lube and case neck lubes. I found a lube too slippery in revolver rounds was not good at all. Need some "sticky" and lanolin will do it just fine.
I have wondered what boolit lubes do with a reaction to brass if loaded for a long time. I have seen green on some lubes. Even Felix has some reaction so are the loads from 2 years ago as good as fresh ones?

[runfiverun]

I don't know if it's the lanolin or the castor oil that causes the corrosion.
but I put some case shavings in a 2-1 mix of the two and they turned a bright green in just a couple of months.
I have never seen this happen if I have a spot or two left on the cases after I use the mix for case sizing.

[Silverbulletsmith]

Am i just crazy to see an obvious difference in the "average" elevation of the three groups? Am I the only one that sees it?

[Hannibal]

Given the sample size, it's hard to form any hard conclusions other than if the man says he's out of his groove, you can bet he's not smoothing things over. I've seen his groups before, and he knows what he's doing.

[44man]

It's OK, my groove turned into a ditch! Can't see good enough to see if it has water in the bottom. :bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2:

[LynC2]

I have great respect for your loading, shooting and reporting but I think you got it wrong this time. I think that while it is small the low neck tension loads were significantly if not greatly better than the others and judging by the groups it is reflected in the clustering as well as the group size. If you had not sorted them and fired them all mixed I think the groups would have been even larger.

Just an observation not a judgement.

Tim

I agree with you Tim due to the tighter clustering of most of the shots rather than relying on the outlying shots to evaluate the group. That also would be backed up by the old "string measurement" method of measuring group size.

[popper]

Lanolin absorbs moisture. I've had RCBS case lube & chapstick leave green growth on 30/30 cases if not completely removed. Shot this today, 308W ~2500, LC07 brass, 170 GC, H4895, just US cleaned & FL sized. No inside neck cleaning. No neck turning. No powder trickling, etc. I know, not 2700 but this is a 16" 1:10 carbine. Some of the flyers were just cleaning the bore from previous loads, then this 6 shot group. Your doing all the other stuff right - something missing for sure.
136992
That load should be running ~ 39k psi, 3% Sb with 1/2% CU. I'll up the load to 42gr H4895 (~57K psi), move the scope to the 24" upper and try, chrony. Gonna be a while though.

[Larry Gibson]

Popper

You just picking the close shots to accept as "accuracy" and ignoring at least the other two?

Larry Gibson

[44man]

Popper

You just picking the close shots to accept as "accuracy" and ignoring at least the other two?

Larry Gibson
I wonder? I hate fliers and every shot must be counted.

[popper]

picking the close shots to accept as "accuracy" and ignoring at least the other two? No, I was testing some HiTek coated that weren't particularly good and was 'cleaning' the bore before the next load. The 'selected' group was the last of my PC coated and I was actually aiming, I should have aimed at a different point - didn't want to spoil the main results - my bad. Lost most of the rifle shooting season last year due to health, so I had some practicing to do, total 60 rnds. yesterday. Last spring was when I shot this rifle last. Wasn't bragging, just wondering why the 30XCB results weren't better - I'm thinking alloy - but don't really know. The PC'd H.T.'d ammo was loaded last spring, cast in Jan IIRC, maybe the 30XCB hasn't aged enough?

[45-70 Chevroner]

I can't help at all except to say if I could shoot 2'' 10 shot cast boolit groups at 100 at 2700fps I would be dancing a jig. Pat
Me too. I would be elated.

[Larry Gibson]

World record class cast bullet groups "cleaning" out the barrel! Is that impressive or what!

Larry Gibson

[44man]

I do NOT clean a barrel even with lube tests. I see immediate results. Unless you are filling a barrel with lead, why bother?

[popper]

Go to the coating section, PC vs HiTek and you will see why I 'cleaned' it. Range doesn't allow cleaning at the line. Phase of the moon? I don't know, it is what it is. AC low Sb @ 2500 didn't do too well. My point to Bjornb is as he does everything 'right', maybe alloy aging is the problem. This is a stock DPMS upper. Doing some calc., 24" with 42gr H4895 should give ~2900 fps, ~ 60K psi. GC'd some this mornning, we'll see.

[Larry Gibson]

popper

Are you "calculating" velocities or measuring them with a chronograph?

Larry Gibson

[Bjornb]

No,
it's not easily nailed down. After much mulling, and after discussing the options with Larry, here's what I did today:
137188137189137190

I re-cut the necks of the entire batch of 200 cases. There has clearly been substantial brass movement in the neck areas (the cases have been fired 5+ times), and there were only 4 cases that did NOT clean up with the K&M cutter (thickness and concentricity was unchanged from when they were formed). The case in the 2 pictures on the right show how unevenly the brass had moved is several cases. (The cutter would only remove material on one side). Thickness, which had been a uniform .0125 inches on every piece of brass initially, was now measuring from .012 to .0145. I used the same cutter and settings in both instances.

No annealing was done this time. I want to see if the neck cleanup makes a difference. I have 150 rounds loaded for Saturday, many with Mag primers (see Larry Gibson's post in the slow twist thread) to see if ES and SD numbers improve. I'll also be using dacron in a number of loads, in search of better accuracy.

I'll be back tomorrow if the weather holds (we're finally supposed to get some rain).

[44man]

Nice turning tool, far better then my first one that had to have each case clamped in and turned by hand, gave up and bought the RCBS, much better.
Brass is crazy! Back when we could not buy any 6.5X55 brass, I bought new Rem 30-06 brass, annealed and started with 250-300 die, then the 6.5. Trimmed, reamed and turned, then annealed again. Made nice cases and they shot well. I had a bunch loaded for a time and almost every neck split. Not shot, just hanging out in the MTM box.
Every split neck I ever had for revolvers has been with brand new brass, just sizing and expanding, after being fired, I never lose one until I get around 40+ loads out of them. Just lost one .44 case that has been loaded since about 1980-83! Yeah, I am cheap!
There is one more BR technique you can do. Sort any brass not in the group or by the POI if they are still tight. Works for revolvers too.
Made a test a few times with brand new brass and I had 7 different POI's, scattered all over paper.
Seems shooting them more will even things out a little. New brass is NOT even.
Some think brass means nothing but it is where most problems are and the most careful loading, weighing everything, etc, will just not correct it and make you lose more hair. To get boolits to 1/2 gr is wasted by your brass.
For the millionth time, brass is your enemy!

[popper]

Larry, I had chrony'd this load for the 16" last year (2450-2500, ~8 shots). Never have chrony'd the same load in the 24". Todo list. I used the pressure curve you sent me, calculated the force, accel., fps from it. adjusted with a fudge factor (slope of the fps curve) to get the fps you reported to me. Allows me to aprox. difference between jacket/cast data. Adjusted the hodgdon jacketed data with that fudge factor to get expected psi/fps for the 24" at a different (increased) load. My clunky version of QL.
But, for this thread, un-annealed LC07 brass from LL, just FL sized (RCBS), chamfer'd inside, expanded with M die, crimped with FCD. The limit of my tooling and experience a year ago. The HiTek loads were annealed, everything else the same but boolits (from the same cast session a year ago but loaded with H335) coated & some heat treated only a month ago.
Bad storm last nite so I'll spend most of the day getting out of safe mode on the computer.

[Mal Paso]

40+ loads from 44 brass, a man after my own heart.
So I broke down and actually bought 2,000 new 44Mag cases (Starline in 2 batches some time apart). First time through the dies the resistance was high and all over the place. Once Fired the brass is softer and much more consistent. Everything else in the New Brass is identical, why so much variation in hardness? And what does firing do that changes hardness? Is strait wall brass different?
I think I"m looking for the same consistent tension as the bottleneck guys.

[Larry Gibson]

Be aware the brass in the area of the case neck expands, flows and sizes differently between bottle necked and straight walled cases, especially at higher psi's and with the type of sizing and expanding dies used.

Larry Gibson

[44man]

No, rifle brass is the same. New brass has proven worse. I can't explain it at all. What happens? You have felt it and are well ahead of the game.
One of our good people here uses only new brass for every IHMSA shoot and I will say that is not good.137224 This is new .44 brass at 50 yards, shot with a scope and rest. I shot 50 rounds. No way to hit a 200 meter ram with this. I have to say I was set back a lot with all my tests, never expected this. I thought new was best too but it is not true.
Can anyone anneal for perfection? I don't think so and you dare not anneal revolver brass. Please do not do that. As you shoot, you will see groups get better then new brass. Yet you will still find different tension.

[Larry Gibson]

44man

You misunderstand. The brass is the same but what happens to it during sizing, firing and expanding is different. Also what is different is the amount of metal movement. Given the same brass thickness and sizing it equally (say .005) the .44 brass gets sized, compressed, moved reshaped, swaged (whatever you want to call it) a lot less than a .30 caliber neck.

The need to anneal the case necks was not the problem Bjorn was having.

Larry Gibson

[dtknowles]

I think this is one place (of many) where you have too treat the issue on a case by case basis. Not all brass is equal. Factory new unfired brass varies greatly from different manufacturers. Some are better at producing uniform brass and other do a better job of annealing. Once fired brass seems more accurate than new brass. In my experience strait cases get shorter when fired and bottle necked cases get longer but they both get thicker in the neck.

I get better accuracy with less neck tension except when neck tension is required and then I don't know because if you have to have the tension there is no point in testing without it. The most accurate ammo I have tested had almost zero neck tension, I could pull the bullets with my fingers. That is with both Jacketed and Cast. I don't shoot many semiauto rifles or lever actions so I almost never crimp my rifle ammo.

With ammo that has almost no neck tension the tension is the most uniform I can get, when you can pull the bullet with your fingers you can tell when one round has more or less tension than the others with a high degree of precision.

With cast bullets in neck turned brass, I can reload without sizing my brass. I can actually do this with some brass that is not neck turned like my .22 hornet, with some brass I have my as cast bullets are just the right fit in the cases.

Tim

[44man]

True and we can't predict or measure a thing. Brass is NOT the same. To expect every case to equal all the others will not hold water. To anneal every case the same does not hold water either. One case softer then another just makes a bigger problem. A few degrees will change things and brass structure. I have an anneal setup but if you think every piece of brass is the same, I have a bridge to sell.
If brass is work hardened, what expander or size die do you use? C'mon Larry. Explain it to me. I might have done more work with brass then anyone. I can not get it right after over 61 years because it can't be done.

[Bjornb]

44 man's tip about culling the brass of fliers or outer POIs is noted. I'll do that. Went to the range today with 150 rounds of ammo. When loading these I did NOT use a neck expander (this is the way I've done it since I started shooting the rifle); just seated the bullets with the RCBS competition die. I neck size to an ID of .309 so the .310 bullets seat easy, even more so now that I re-chamfered the cases with the VLD tool.
The rounds chambered much easier after turning the necks (duh), and results were pretty good. I'll post the targets over in Special Projects as soon as I get the Chronograph data printed out and pasted up.

[Larry Gibson]

44man

I never said we were going to "get it right" as far as equal and consistent bullet pull. In my experience since I started turning necks for several bottle necked cartridges in '79 and have turned necks in numerous since I have found the necks thicken in spots and thin in spots and very seldom is it uniform. How much that happens depends on a whole lot of variables. Suffice to say I've found it necessary to track the number of firings and to return the necks every 4 - 5 firings. Back when I was shooting long range matches (600 - 1000 yards) with my .308W match rifle I inside neck reamed every loading using a Lee target loader. Every time there was a bit of brass removed in some spot inside many of the necks.

Since beginning my serious HV cast bullet shooting with 10, 12 and 14" twist .308Ws and the 30x60 XCB I have maintained a careful record of the times the case were fired and return the necks every 4 firings. Some small amounts of brass are always removed in various locations on the necks. There is no consistency where the thickening appears on the necks. Keeping the necks concentric on the outside is necessary for best accuracy with a tight neck. Keeping the neck concentric also keeps the inside concentric if the neck is lightly expanded with and M - die or when the bullet is seated. Consistent concentricity of the cartridge/neck/bullet to the bore line is essential for best accuracy.

As to annealing; yes I know all the big BP shooters anneal their cases as to some others. I have not tested any of those so I won't address them. What I will address is whether or not annealing the necks is beneficial to the HV cast bullet loads using bottle necked cases. I have tested this with several different .30 caliber cartridges in different rifles with loads now using cast bullets from 2300 to 2950 fps. I have found that annealing the case necks is only beneficial to prolonging case life if the necks get brittle enough to split or when forming the cases initially if there is a large reduction forming the shoulder and neck down into the original cases body. Otherwise I have not been able to demonstrate any measurable consistent increase in accuracy. I have not annealed any of the Winchester cases used in the Palma rifle and they have been fired 12 times. I have not annealed any of the 30x60 XCB cases formed from '06 Winchester cases and that last group of 1.65" shown at 2950 fps was with cases that had been fired 5 times.

At the level of psi, velocity and RPM we are shooting these HV 30 XCB bullets at there are some things we can do to maintain consistency in bullet pull and some things are only wishful thinking. The proof of what happens to carefully turned and uniformed necks after a few firings and that they have to be trued up every so often to maintain accuracy is well proven in Bjorn's post. The fact that I do not anneal cases and am getting the accuracy I am with the Palma rifle and Dawn provides well documented proof of the value of annealing the necks in an attempt to improve accuracy. At this level there are other things we can affect that we should be paying attention to. Wasting time, effort and components on those things we can not effect is, to me, not very fruitful.

Larry Gibson

[44man]

Lee collet dies do an extremely accurate job of sizing. Eventually you will need to FL because of shoulder movement and a bolt will get very hard to close. They don't work good for lever guns with bolt spring.
Anytime something works, there is always a fly somewhere.
Not sizing does work if a boolit fits as long as you don't leave one behind when ejecting a live round. Makes a mess!
Even when I measure seating pressure I will have a few so far out I can't combine them with any other pile and if I want a 10 shot group I need to load a lot so I can get at least 10 close. At times I have had a dozen piles on the bench.
I have BR collar dies for the .44 and many size collars but there is no way to tell ahead of time what size a case needs. No expander needed, just a flare tool.
Using Hornady dies has loads much closer then any I have tried. I get as good as the BR dies. The .44 is a much larger pain then larger calibers. I suppose a .41 and under would be worse.
In my IHMSA days I used mostly jacketed and in the start I could barely keep bullets on steel. I was like everyone else with a revolver. Then the seating feel hit me aside the head and I went from unclassified to International class in very few shoots. Maybe the least ever shot to go that far as fast but I had perfect vision too. I was not popular shooting International scores from C class.
No way I would do like a few did, sandbag in a lower class until an important shoot.
I seen it with archery when there was a handicap system. I had no handicap points. The Ohio field was 300 points and I shot a 292 to lose to a guy with 360 points from handicap points added. How can anyone have more then possible? Seen it in bowling too. There are no points added when deer hunting!
See where I stand? Can't shoot and get no free lunch.
I shot ML silhouette at Fairfax Rod and Gun in VA and took home thousands in prizes and groceries. The few at the top got everything so they changed the rules so even a guy that missed all still got something. My friends and I quit.

[Nrut]

What does the last three paragraphs have to do with the subject at hand?
hmmm?

[44man]

What does the last three paragraphs have to do with the subject at hand?
hmmm?
It means to learn and get better for your own pride. It means work and thinking. Nobody holds a plate of goodies out to you. That would be my little dog!
You are on your own. You read everything but never test or prove so you are in a rut. I have memories. Ever put every ball in the bull with a flint lock off hand? Might it be that I made the guns shoot? Why would that be different then making a .44 shoot? I once took 4 out of five steel chickens at 200 meters with round balls with my .54 Hawken, off hand. I knew the sights and the load needed. How can you say it is not relevant? I might not shoot or see as good but anything you stick in your gun that is junk is nothing but stupid. I shoot one shot and do not need 1000 rounds from a Dillon to brag about how many loads I made. I cast 50 to 100 boolits that hit, never 2000 scuds. I won because I used my head and went against the rag writers and internet experts.

[kens]

I think Bjorn has answered his own question lately with the XCB project. He tried breech seating in his bolt action, and had good results.
So, I think the answer is the LEAST amount of neck tension is the best.
I say that because all of the above posts indicate least tension is better, and breech seating has ZERO neck tension,

Maybe we can try a test of loading bolt action in single shot mode where neck tension is very low, and closing the bolt seats the boolit to the leade.

[44man]

Maybe we can try a test of loading bolt action in single shot mode where neck tension is very low, and closing the bolt seats the boolit to the leade."Quote."
This would be good to test but you must engage the rifling so there is no jump, Now to worry about a boolit that can go deeper since the is nothing behind it like the powder charge. Even if powder is to the base of a boolit, you can settle the powder more if rounds get jostled around.
if there is any boolit movement from the primer alone before the powder takes off you can get an SEE event.
If you can pull a boolit with fingers, what prevents it from falling into the shell? You will need a filler.
I can't argue with Larry because bottle neck brass does flow and nothing says it will be even.
I also found a flaw with my seat measurement device, it doesn't work with long brass. I tried to measure the 30-30 and the die is too high so the handle will be too low to make use of the spring rod. Might have to look at spud pull.
The best might be to sort brass that does not go in the group, BR shooters use the best 5 cases and load them at the bench over and over.
What we need is a strain gauge setup to measure seating pressures. Seating pressure does have a relationship to boolit pull. Soft lead sized by brass makes it too hard.
I know I will not shoot anything from a rifle with no tension. You can destroy your gun. I will leave tests to others.

[Toymaker]

Read something the other day that I'm going to try with one caliber - after processing and loading the guy put them through the neck sizing collet again. Yes, with the bullet seated he sized the neck. That gave him the same amount of neck tension on each cartridge.

Now, the article didn't say if he did the second neck sizing with the same size collet as the first, of if he went to a slightly larger one. I figure on doing some more reading on this and then play with it some. If I'm going to neck size only, bevel and ream necks, trim to exact length, polish the inside of the neck, anneal, weigh cases, weigh bullets, etc., etc., etc. there's no reason not to add another step.

[Bjornb]

I was never able to finish up this experiment. Shortly after I posted this I started noticing deterioration of accuracy in Bertha, and after shipping her to Goodsteel he discovered a blackish "crud" buildup in the barrel's first 5 inches. We attributed it to shooting almost 8 pounds of WC867 milsurp powder over the last 5 months.

Kens has a point about trying the experiment with very low tension. However, having shot a couple of thousand rounds in this rifle, and developed a feel for different bullet seating scenarios, I have to agree with 44man that a bullet seated with zero neck tension would not be controllable as far as seating depth goes. Any friction while chambering the round would cause the bullet to be pushed deeper, to an unknown seating depth. I prefer at least to have enough tension so that the bullet gets seated by the closing of the bolt, consistently.

Breech seating continues to be my preferred way to keep the speed up with accuracy. There is zero neck tension, and all issues with launch concentricity have been solved.

Goodsteel is shipping me a "loaner" XCB rifle next week: it's his "Felix" rifle with 3 barrels fitted; a 30XCB in 1:17 twist, a 35XCB in 1:14 twist, and Tim's own 30XCB Brux in 1:14 twist. I had to promise not to shoot milsurp powder in the Brux.

My own target rifle is being fitted with a new stock from Richards Micro Fit, and a new Timney trigger after the 60 year old Canjar gave up the ghost.

[kens]

Perhaps you missed my point,
I say load in single shot mode. that is, do not run up the feed ramp, set a single round in the chamber and close it.
Yes, I understand running up the feed ramp could push a loose neck bullet into the case; that is why I say load it as a single shot, just like you would a Ruger #1.
I am proposing doing it this way so that a light neck tension could possibly seat the bullet onto the lands, and close the bolt right there.
Basically, when you cam the bolt closed, you are pressing the bullet in those final few thousands into the neck.

[44man]

Perhaps you missed my point,
I say load in single shot mode. that is, do not run up the feed ramp, set a single round in the chamber and close it.
Yes, I understand running up the feed ramp could push a loose neck bullet into the case; that is why I say load it as a single shot, just like you would a Ruger #1.
I am proposing doing it this way so that a light neck tension could possibly seat the bullet onto the lands, and close the bolt right there.
Basically, when you cam the bolt closed, you are pressing the bullet in those final few thousands into the neck.

Not going to happen. Touch anything and a boolit will move. If the boolit is loose how do you press a boolit?