45-70 Mold For Hunting And Target Shooting

[brasshog]

Hello everyone. I acquired a very nice 1885 Browning High Wall with the Browning tang sight yesterday at a very good deal. I have never owned a 45-70 and wanted it for hunting in Vermont and Canada if I get to go next year. These Florida deer are so tiny so it's been on my mind as to what bullet/velocity to use. We also have some nice 300lb hogs here. This is the mold that I was thinking of purchasing to cover all of my hunting needs http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=42&products_id=666. Has anyone had any experience with it or a similar mold ? I would like for it to be my "do it all mold" for a while but as we all know I'll be buying several molds for this caliber as the addiction grows. I have never loaded 45-70 before so I have no preference in powders atm for this cartridge. I am looking for a soft lead hollowpoint that will expand under mild velocity...aka low recoil due to my open heart surgery last year that hasn't fully healed. I figure that if I can't accomplish that then I could always use the 405 grainers for two hole shots. I posted here in the hunting section because I'm looking for hunting mold/CB advice. If it needs to be in the "mold" section then I apologize in advance. Thanks.

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[Smoke4320]

I can tell you that the above NOE 405 and Also the NOE 350 Rg molds are great molds .
At 1400-1600 FPS it will kill any living animal in the US
the 350 will give you a little less kick for the same speed

Mighty " purty " gun you have there

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Brasshog,

From my personal experience, I'd say go with a cast bullet of over 400gr, but with what ever bullet hold that velocity down WELL below 2000fps!!!!!!!!!!

Then, forget the soft or expanding cast bullets and simply use a cast bullet with a LARGE meplat, many times called a Wide Flat or Long Flat Nose (WFN - LFN)

I currently use/shoot a 465gr WFN at 1650fps and it is awesome on deer and elk.

However, a 355gr WFN at 2300fps not only kicked waaaaay harder, but was devastating with a huge wound channel. I mean really huge!

While there are folk that use bullets that expand, I much prefer the simple and very reliable use of the WFN cast bullet.

My alloy is a 50/50 mix of Wheel Weights/lead, water quenched as the bullets fall from the hot mold.

While I may have some expansion, it is not needed with the WFN.

AS said, folk do use expanding cast bullets, but it took many years for jacketed bullets to come to the point of great reliability and predictability in the expansion department, so expansion with a bullet that has no controlling factor of a high tech jacket etc. can only be less reliable or predictable.

From personal experience, I'd suggest checking with Tom at Accurate Molds for a very fine product.

Then as Smoke has already said, 1400 - 1600fps will get er done, and I'll add, especially if your using a WFN cast bullet.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[brasshog]

ty smoke and coot. The last Florida "Large" doe that i shot weighed in at about 125lbs lol. I know that any 45-70 boolit is gonna be a pass through here. There are some big deer up north in the 250-300lb range. I'll check with Tom about a mold. My NOE 358 mold is great but can be a PITA sometimes. I prefer steel molds over aluminum. I have used some 430 WFNGC in 44 mag before and loved them. I have to stay with light recoiling rounds for now since my breastbone still hasn't healed fully (been 1 1/2 years now). My wife will kill me if I rip my chest open again and go to bleeding with all of these blood thinners I'm on :groner:. I was "thinking" something like a 405 at 1100-1300 fps would be "ideal" atm for a recoil "assumption" since I have a crescent butt plate. This figure is not based upon personal experience but rather info from the net. So far I have only fired a 223 (bench) with no problems. She is out of town atm and doesn't know about the rifle "yet" :wink:. I'd hate to fire some of this ammo that came with it and have to hear her lecture.

[pjames32]

Pretty gun! I'm sticking with 400+ grain flat nose moving SLOW for hunting.
PJ

[brasshog]

Thanks PJ. Crusty...I'm looking at Tom's molds...I assume that any meplate that is 80% of the diameter or larger is considered wide ?

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Brasshog,

I'd really think that the 1100 - 1300fps will get er done with a WFN cast.

I'm and old "J" bullet shooter and hunter, but had shot handguns and had gone to a LFN (Long Flat Nose) of 310gr in the .44. But even with that, I did do a lot of reading and checking before I jumped on the WFN cast bandwagon for the 45/70.

In truth, that 355gr I mentioned earlier caught me totally by surprise but sure made a believer out of me. I was completely unprepared for the size of wound channel it gave at 100yds with a Muzzle velocity of 2300fps.

I saw the results and wondered just what in the world I'd turned loose on the game population.

The 465gr WFN at the much more sedate velocity of 1650fps is just soooo much better and as my growing pile of deer and a couple of big cow elk attest, it is ever so effective.

The bullet you mention from Accurate Molds should do just fine.

The RCBS 405gr flat nose has a good following, but I just wanted the larger meplat and also more then a 2 cavity mold.

I have had great luck with the Aluminum molds other then the cheapies that Lee produced in single and double cavity molds.

My aluminum molds from LBT, Bruce - BABore ( sorry that he is no longer making molds) and Tom have been first rate. I'll now give the edge to Tom because of his sprew plate hold down.

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The before/after image is of the 465gr bullet from Bruce's mold. I was surprised to find this one and don't expect to find another. This "after" bullet took a large cow elk with a quartering shot through the heavy upper front leg bone, a rib, the lungs, all the way through a very full and heavy paunch, stopping under the hide just in front of the off side hind. Weight of the "after" bullet is 327.9gr.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[irishtoo]

sir, i currently load and shoot a win1885 45-70. my load is 14grs of unique with a mihec .462 425 gr wfn. in that 10lb gun recoil is very tolerable. a far cry from factory loads. with you being on blood thinners i would be concerned about reopening your wounds and creating a hematoma in your shoulder from the recoil. i would advise you to stay away from factory loads untill well healed. you can ,sir, kill a whitetail quite well with factory .223s with no recoil. the lecture will be more painful then the kick from any rifle!! irishtoo

[Edward]

I would swap you my 30-30 for your 45-70 just to save you from yourself though yours looks prettier ,mine doesn"t recoil ! That is one fine looking gun!!!!!!!

[brasshog]

Thanks for the info Irish. I didn't think about a hematoma in my shoulder either. Good looking out. Thanks Edward but I'm afraid that I must decline your offer atm :-D. Crusty... I was just about to send you a message earlier asking if that was a GC boolit at 1600 fps. Thanks for the pic. It answered that question.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Brasshog,

Yes gas checked and the 355gr at 2300fps I mentioned earlier were also G.C. I did a good amount of testing trying to get the accuracy and consistency I wanted from that bullet and tested it to a touch over 2500fps.

With the velocity levels you are considering gas checks should not be needed to prevent leading.

Just make sure you have proper bullet to bore fit.

However, there are some schools of thought that a G.C. bullet may be more accurate. I think this would be a case by cast situation, and with the huge amount of variability in cast bullets, the gas check may or may not be the reason.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[hockeynick39]

Just ordered an Accurate Molds 46-400M. We'll see how it does this summer. Have some IMR 3031, IMR/H 4895, RE-7, H322, H4198, and AA2400, should be fun!

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Nick, you have several listed that seem to get a lot of good press.

If you have some H335, that is what rings the bell on my rifle.

I really like my Accurate molds, and hope to order 2 - 3 more this Summer.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Ramjet-SS]

A Gould deaign 322 grain HP running at 1400 FPS will make short work of an Elk within 150 yards and recoil is low.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

But say the same bullet and velocity is put into an elk at 25yds. Likely an over expansion situation there or if the range is 200 - 250yds the opposite is possibly the result.

That is why, near or far, I'm so happy with the results of the Wide Flat Nose cast bullets.

I simply do not need expansion with the 45/70 and a WFN bullet, if it does a bit, fine, so be it, but if it doesn't the large meplat just keeps on doing it's job.

It has proven awesomely effective on deer and elk.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[oldfart1956]

Brasshog once you've settled on a mold and while awaiting it's arrival something you might consider is fitting up a slip-on or lace-on recoil pad. Just looking at that butt-plate makes me wince. You'll need to cut some pieces of firm foam or even heavy felt (boot insoles?) to fill in the curved part before slipping on the pad. I'd pick the widest pad I could find to spread the recoil out over a larger area. Pachmayr and a dozen others make them or if you have an old pair of boots with soft leather uppers and some duct-tape, you could fashion one up for free. And don't be afraid to download that 45/70 for paper punching. I'm pootin' a 320gr. boolit out there so slow I can eat lunch before it hits the 100yd. backstop :) and I'll guarantee it would still kill a deer at that range. Audie...the Oldfart..

[Duckiller]

I have a Marlin 1895 cowboy with a 26" barrel. 405 gr 10X load for single shot was pretty brutal without a recoil pad. Got two Lee molds,330gr and 405gr. Cheap but after they were cleaned up they cast good boolits. Either boolit loaded over minimum loads of Trailboss had very little recoil and put good holes in Coke cans.

[Lonegun1894]

I'm with Ramjet on this one. If you want effective but low recoil, the 330gr Gould HP can't be beat. Get it moving 1200-1600fps and it expands like designed for deer or hogs of any size. If velocity drops below what it needs to expand, it just acts like a flat point, and still does the job. What's not to like? It's what I use in my H&R BC for deer and hogs and it is excellent. Recoils less than a factory .30-30, and works at least as well and probably better.

[JesterGrin_1]

I have read many good reports on the 330gr Gould HP for hunting purposes and it has been around a very long time. And like said you do not need to push them very fast as they were designed for the black powder range of speeds for hunting.

The now available NOE 460-350Gr RNFP/GC as mentioned of which was originally designed by Ranch Dog Outdoors of which is no longer producing these. This mold has served me well on Deer and Hogs up to around 400LBS at distances no greater than 140 yards.

The rifle is a Marlin 1895GS in 45-70 Government. There are two benefits to these two bullet designs and that is since the bullets are in the 350Gr range you will save lead and also due to the lighter weight over the heavier designs it will decrease felt recoil depending on your loads. But again you do not need to push these bullets for good game taking ability.

As for powders I wish I could give you some lengthy information on different powders but I am not able to. What I can say is that for higher end loads H-322 has proven to be a very accurate powder. I started with that powder and due to the less than 3/4" groups at 100 yards with a scope I decided the search for other powders would not be worth it lol. BUT due to the heavy loads I used of which are slobber knockers I gave Unique a try due to all of the reports on the accuracy and low recoil with its use in the 45-70 Government that I can report that the powder is also very accurate with very low felt recoil. The downside in my own opinion is due to the small amount of powder used in the big 45-70 Government case one must be on there game as to not double or triple charge a case. So if one is not comfortable with this then I would look for another powder that will fill the case as much as possible yet still give a lower FPS that will still be enough for hunting. And of course lower felt recoil. Such as Trail Boss.

Again sorry that I do not have a report on hunting game with this Unique load as of yet. I hope for a Hog in the next few weeks. :)

Forgot to mention BEAUTIFUL RIFLE. I hope one day to have one. :)

[GooseGestapo]

You're way-way over thinking it.
I started with the .45/70 and heavy molds. Mostly Lee 400-485gr boolits.
Now for everything, I use the RCBS 300-FNGC mold.
I've run it and killed deer with loads as fast/high speed as 45.0gr of IMR4198 for speeds approaching 2,000fps from my Marlin Guide Gun.
Now, I use 30.0gr of #2400. Kills deer just as dead, accuracy is amazing (under 1.5" at 100yds for 5-shots), economical (free bullet for every 4 cast compared to 400+gr boolits), and Much MUCH easier on the shoulder.
An aquaintance last fall bought a similar Browning to hunt some property he has in Ohio. He shot a couple of Hornady 325's I loaded him to factory level speed.... He shot mostly some 405HP's and 340gr FN Lee boolits I loaded for him over modest loads of TrailBoss, but he ended up hunting with the cast 300gr FNGC. They were equally accurate in his Browning and recoiled considerably less in the Browning. (not to mention they hurt a LOT less with the metal curved butt plate...).
Simply, they kill "LESS" on "your" end... But shoot flatter at ~1,600fps, than a heavy at ~1,100-1,300fps.
Helpful on the ~100lb Florida deer.

[JesterGrin_1]

GooseGestapo I found the same thing with the 300Gr both cast and jacketed as far as accuracy as in the 1.5-2.0" range at 100 yards but by simply going to the 350Gr I cut that down to 3/4" and less at 100 yards. The difference may not matter to some but I do try and wring the best accuracy that I can out of a hunting firearm if I am able.

[brasshog]

Thanks for all of the information and recommendations guys. I knew that I would most likely end up purchasing three or so molds to try it all out and see what the rifle likes. Of course the fun is in trying something new in lots of different ways. I guess it'll be a 300-350gr, 405gr WFN, and a 475gr for starters. I'm interested in seeing which weight of boolit is going to be more accurate in this rifle. I can't wait till the season gets here so I can post some results on this thread ;)

[JimP.]

my powder of choice for the 45-70 is RL-7 and AA 5744. Those two work best for me. i use two molds. SAECO 883 and the Lyman 457125. Both throw a RN 500 gr bullet. I load both to 1250 fps in my rifles and kill everything i shoot with them. (deer, hogs). This was the original ballistics and no need to change. In my 1876 45-75 i use the Oregon Trails 350 gr FP with AA 5744. 1400 fps and shoots to the sights, love that rifle. JimP.

[dh2]

I have the NOE 460-405 mold in your link, my Marlin does very well with it, I push it 1500fps with IMR4198. I have no worry about ant thing walking a way from a hit with it.

[Dormin]

Good luck with the breast bone/cartilage healing. It took me over two years since I overworked myself several times.
I'll be bringing my 45-70 Rossi Rio Grande to Florida for the winter and hope to find a quality hog hunt setup.
I just got the gun last week and will be casting boolits for it next week. I'm new at casting so lots of fun ahead as I experiment.

[brasshog]

Since I started firing my 45-70 BFR and my Browning High Wall I have learned a few things recently. The BFR kicks ..alot lol. My buddy fired one of the 325gr Leverloution reloads that came with the rifle and was done for the day. I managed to get six rounds off from the bench and acquired a nice group at 100 yards that was about two inches dead center. The High Walls official name now is "Mule". That steel butt plate really transfers that recoil. I was sore for a week in the shoulder but was ok with my chest. I have purchased a 475gr Whitworth mold (457121PH) and plan to get several more soon. My mold is throwing them at .457 and the barrel is approximately .456/.457 . Thanks for the info dh2. I still would like to have one of those NOE molds. Apparently I have grown to liking the single cavity steel molds these days for big boolits since I started this thread but I'm still considering some two cavity aluminum models. Dormin...where in Florida are you moving/visiting too ? Thanks.

[Ramslammer]

G'Day Brasshog
We use the mold you first mentioned with 16 grns of trailboss and it works with little recoil. Both the Toad and I have 1895CLs with cresent butts and they are ok to shoot 80 shots in cowboy silhouette in a day.
Juddy

[white eagle]

Brass
here is the boolit of choice for me from Tom @ Accurate
http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=46-420C-D.png,
I have used this design with exceptional results on northern woodland whitetail deer
I cast them out of a lead tin alloy of 25/1 because of the gas check
never recovered a boolit but the animals hit just plain ol died no need to track if hit correctly

[smoked turkey]

white eagle I don't need another 45 caliber mold but that 46-420 sure does look good!
To all thanks for this very informative thread on loads for the wonderful old 47-70.

[mikeyman]

I have a 350 RD mold from NOE that I have been playing around with. Just ordered an accurate mold 2 cavity with 2 different boolit types 460-415VG and 460-490V. Now I will have a wide range of weights to play with. Not sure how many 490 gr boolits my shoulder will handle out of my Marlin 1895 CB though...

[hockeynick39]

I picked up an Accurate Molds 460400M to go with my original Winchester 1886 in 45-70 Government. Didn't know what was going to happen, but it shoots great!

The bullet:
http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y338/hockeynick39/46-400M-D1_zpslvezmfiu.png

The mold, bullets, brass, and completed cartridges:
http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y338/hockeynick39/Winchester%201886%20084_zpsquzo493c.jpg

The rifle with a compliment of cartridges:
http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y338/hockeynick39/Winchester%201886%20089_zpszbszfye6.jpg
(http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y338/hockeynick39/Winchester%201886%20089_zpszbszfye6.jpg[/IMG])

Final data and target:
http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y338/hockeynick39/Winchester%201886%2050%20yd%20Target%20III%20001_z psxa8wwngu.jpg

[MBTcustom]

Hockeynick39, very nice pictures! Would you share the range at which the above group was fired?
Thank you sir.

[oscarflytyer]

405 grn Lee HB. WW + 2% tin, pan lubed. 38.5 grns IMR 3031. ~1350 fps muzzle velocity. This is a very low (maybe below min) Trapdoor Load. From Waters' Pet Loads. In my Marlin, shoots very well (this one IS a .460 bullet - Marlin micro-groove bbl likes a little bigger - if your bore is smaller or likes a smaller bullet, another ~400 grn bullet should work also). Recoil is very easy, even with hard curved butt plate, light rifle and my rebuilt shoulder. Flipped a small deer last year with it at ~80 yds.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Hockeynick,

That big meplat will get er done.

I'm just so impressed with the results provided by the WFN cast bullets and you don't need warp speeds to do the job.

Nice group also!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[brasshog]

I like that rifle Hockeynick39

[Cornbread]

I bought a gas checked 405grn mold from Accurate to shoot high velocity out of a bolt action 45-70, the gun ended up not liking the bullet, it shot fine but doesn't like to feed them properly so I went with a different mold for that gun but my 7.5" BFR in 45-70 absolutely loves this bullet pushed at 1,250fps at the muzzle of a 7.5" barrel which is 38.5grn of 3031. This is the bullet and below that is the average five round groups I get with it at 50 yards, this is not in a gun rest of any kind, I think it would do one hole groups if I did that. Please ignore the ugly target. I shoot a lot because I have a 100 yard range at my house and rather than waste money on targets I just take a pen and draw a black dot on copy paper with a pen using the inside of a scotch tape role as a guide and then shoot at it.

Bullet:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y27/AndyTheCornbread/46-405C_zpszfrvwwuc.png

Average 5 round group at 50 yards:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y27/AndyTheCornbread/IMG_6575_zpskt6nrdpy.jpg

[brasshog]

I had planned on getting a checked version of my 405 PB mold after Christmas. That would be a nice one.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Tom of Accurate Molds makes a good product!

I have 2 or 3 more in my mental wish list.

All are 4 - 5 cavity.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[mikeyman]

I just tested out the 46-490V shot several sub MOA groups today I was super impressed and can't wait to try this on a moose hopefully. From the marlin 1895cb going 1350fps the recoil is not bad at all. Sighted it in at 200y and is 11in high at 100y.

[Good Cheer]

http://i791.photobucket.com/albums/yy192/SNARGLEFLERK/DSCF2862_zps8zl20oyd.jpg (http://s791.photobucket.com/user/SNARGLEFLERK/media/DSCF2862_zps8zl20oyd.jpg.html)

That one on the top is my brother's 500 grain pure lead 1500 plus feet per second sub minute of angle hunting load for his 1885. He used Paul Matthews' techniques all the way through. I think he got the entrance into the rifling adjusted to 1/2 degree.

[725]

Ramjet-SS & Goose Gestapo are giving you good advice. A 300 - 350 gr cast boolit at moderate speeds will serve you well. Take care not to injure yourself further. You will be very happy with the light weights and your freezer will be full. Save the recoil producers for a year or two from now. I've whacked many deer and hogs with those 300 - 350's. Dead is dead. Dead without recoil issues is delightful.

[Good Cheer]

Spoke with my brother today.
He said his 500 grain swaged spire point in that picture is going 1800 with H4895.
He sent a picture of a 350 or so pound boar he's fixing to cull. Said it's run off the deer and it has to go. So he's breaking out the single shot AAA.