Noobie fixing to smelt on a budget

[tpepper70]

Good moring folks,

I've been lurking on here for a while and finally joined a while back. I have a mold coming for my 9mm and will be looking for a mold for my 30-30. I have a manager friend at a tire shop that supplies me with wheel weights once a month. So far I have around 70lbs of lead wheel weights to smelt into ingots which I plan on starting this weekend, life and weather permitting. I'm a tightwad and refuse to spend lots of money on a hobby, so I decided to find what I could at thrift stores. I already had an old Coleman 2 burner propane stove, circa late 70's, that has been sitting in the shop, unused for the last 20+ years, bottles of propane and a sturdy stand. I found a 12" x 6" pan that looks like a WOK but is all steel and fairly heavy, a stainless slotted spoon, a cast iron 4" ladle and an ingot mold at Goodwill for $15. The mold is cast iron that has five, 3" x 1" molds, with a long handle attached. It also came with a top that has the same amount and size molds. Not sure what it is, but it should produce nice size ingots for my Lee pot. I have a very good respirator that I'll be using and fans to blow fumes away from me. I found a probe type thermometer at Cabelas that goes to 750 that I think will work. I don't plan on smelting any hotter than 700. I have pine sawdust and small candles to flux with and metal 5 gallon buckets for the steel dross. I have a few questions because I want to clarify with the folks here. I've already separated all my WW's but I'm sure a few steel and Zinc may have slipped past me.

1-Do I flux before removing the steel clips or after and how many times?
2-Should I smelt the SOWW separate, due to lead type, or does it matter?

I'm brand new to this so and and all helpful tips and advice will be much appreciative. Thanks, Tim

[bangerjim]

Make you have verified your "70 pounds" of weight are all Pb! Today we are seeing almost 50% loss due to Fe and Zn in there. You need to sort well prior to re-melting anything to insure you get pure lead alloy out of the process. Do not rely on your melt temp to sort for you. An uncontrolled open flame on a pan can get real hot real fast, even with a thermometer.

All the wok-like pans I have ever seen have a very small bottom/base and are designed to sit down in a holder over the burner. Small bottom = danger, Will Robinson! It can tip over very easy. Just plan ahead!

Back when I used to mess with COWW's, I fluxed with the clips still in to get all the Sn I could keep. Then skim and flux 3X afterward, stiring well. Last time, I put a small piece of candle wax in with the dust.

COWW's are generally 10-12 Bhn. SOWW's are pretty close to pure lead, but can vary slightly. Keep them separate......in my book anyway.

You will/may need some Sn added to your casting pot when you get around to dropping boolits. WW's only have 0.5% and most try to stay around 2% for excellent fill-out. Low Sn can create wrinkles and poor fillout of grease grooves and bottoms.

Being frugal is one thing. Being a cheap "tightwad" is another. You are saving lots of money re-melting lead for boolits over buying comcast and FMJ's so plan on spending some sufficient $$ on good eqipment.

Good luck on your initial endevour. This is not rocket science.....just simply re-melting lead into ingots! Have fun. And do it SAFELY!!!!!

banger-l

[quilbilly]

So you have a Lee pot. Keep things simple at first and use that to melt the first 8-10# of wheel weights (after weeding out the suspected zinc, of course) then scoop out the clips that will be floating on the surface with the spoon. Scoop out the dross with a not slotted spoon as well. Make yourself a few ingots and test them for hardness with your fingernail and then by dropping them on a concrete floor to listen for the sound (thud is good while a clang requires more testing). Don't let the bottom pour Lee pot go dry but leave at least an inch of lead on the bottom.
Next time you visit Walmart, pick up a package of "lead free" tin splitshot fishing sinkers in the fishing isle and add a size 7 per pound of ingots when you are ready to make some boolits. Have fun. You will soon be an official alchemist who turns lead to "gold" (really good boolits).
Welcome to our group!!!

[trixter]

After you are done 'spooning' everything you can get off the top of the melt, then use the sawdust, you cover about 1/2 if the top and let it charcoal. You can light it with a bbq lighter and help it charcoal. Stir it in as best as possible and then I like to do it again and then clean every thing off. When I put my ingots in the pot, then I use the candle wax and also stir it in good (I use a paint stir stick). 2- If you want soft boolits(45's or target pistol), you can mix in the SOWW, but I would use them as is (COWW). I usually seperate the SOWW and melt them into seperate ingots and mark them and sell them to fishing weight casters.

Have fun.

[country gent]

Keeping the clip ons and Stick ons seperate is eaier and allows more choice in alloy. Once blended together they can never be unblended, But kept seperate and poured into ingots on thier own they can be added as needed. Everything you stated sounds good. I would flux with clips in place the first time ( if pot allows this as the clips can make stiring tough at times) then remove clips and flux with sawdust again the a 3rd time with sawdust and wax. You will know when its clean and blended by the lack of crud and the nice mirror like surface. If your pan dosnt have the ring bend one up out of 1/8"X1" to set it in ( 1" is just a guess amke it tall enough to get with in 1/2" of edge all way around and support the pan by the uptside.). A good idea that makes it much easier and faster is to think this thru and have a plan, Set up with casting and pouring a place for ingots to cool and a place for them to set. Everything where it needs to be and in place while lead is melting. Slotted spoon solid spoon at pot ladle at pot and ingot moulds on hard fireproof surface. Heavy pliers for moving still hot ingots to cooling area are a plus.

[fredj338]

I melt them separate. I flux before removing the clips, helps get any lead off them, then again just before I start pouring ingots. Keep the melt below 725 & the zinc wts float to the top. The steel are always going to float out.

[tpepper70]

Thanks guys. Ya'll are quick. The lead I have is lead, no Zinc or steel unless I missed one. 1st 5 gallon bucket yielded 56lbs of lead and 60lbs of steel/zinc. I picked up another 1/2 bucket yesterday but haven't separated it yet. I'll double check my pot/pan, but pretty sure it has a rather large base. True, I don't mind spending money to do things safely and will when needed. The Lee pot is coming for fathers day. What I told wife and kids I wanted. I'll keep ya'll updated as to how things go. Thanks again for this amazing site. I've learned so much in the last few months.

[bangerjim]

I started out with a coleman stove, too, and found I had a hard time waiting a half an hour for it to melt 30 lbs of lead. It wouldn't really want to support more than that with the flimsy grill it came with. I upgraded to a turkey deep-fryer stove, and I recommend the Bayou Classic. Get a 14" or 16" stove ($60 US made, shipping is ridiculous on these so try to buy local) and either a dutch oven, or a deep stainless steel pot (14-18" diameter). It seriously improves the quality of life, in regards to casting ingots.

$60 http://www.bayouclassicstore.com/Turkey%20Fryers/SQ14tf.html
http://www.bayouclassicstore.com/assets/product_thumbs/SQ14.jpg

Good point.

OP......watch for a turkey or fish fryer like that on sale somewhere. Faaaaaaar better than a flimsy camp stove for what we do. Get a good SOLID one (don't go cheap) because you will want it to safely support many pounds of lead! RE-melting will be much more pleasurable and fun with a higher BTU burner under you soup.

banger-j

[tpepper70]

Thanks guys. I'll prob be getting a turkey fryer in the future. Due to the age, and how well built, my Coleman is, the grate is pretty beefy and holds my bucket with 50lbs of lead with ease. The newer stoves are pretty flimsy, I agree. We'll see how it works. Good way to kill an afternoon outside. Thanks again guys.

[tpepper70]

I got ya. I was concerned about that as well, but it seems to hold a hefty amount pretty good. I prob won't be melting that much lead at a time, but who knows.

[mold maker]

That grill on the Coleman will sag when it gets red hot. I have 2 (1960s -1970s) that failed.

[Mk42gunner]

Actually the grate on a coleman stove is plenty heavy to support a cold pot of lead; its when things warm up the problem occurs. Mine used to glow red before the lead would liquefy, and my pot at the time was a 10" Chinese dutch oven.

I have since gotten a turkey fryer and a homemade steel pot (eight inch section of 8" steel pipe with a ¼" plate bottom welded on) for smelting.

It seems like I get about the same volume of clips as I do lead when smelting, so I scoop most of them off between first and second fluxing. Flux until the alloy is clean; if it takes two or three times, it takes two or three times.

Separate the stick on from the clip on, and mark them.

Robert

[bangerjim]

tpepper70............as you can see, these fine people on here are only concerned about your safety and well being. You will not find a better collection of ideas and valuable knowledge in one place!

Just listen to the voices of experience, spend a little money, and avoid a trip to the ER!

Safe melting!

banger-j

[tpepper70]

I didn't think about the heat. Duh. Why I come to forums like this. Simple common sense issues that get overlooked. You got that right banger. I, being 44, learned a long time ago to listen to the experienced due to their wisdom from trial and error. Keeps you from making the same mistakes, if you listen to them. If only our young folks would listen to the wise, but that's a whole other thread. Thanks guys.

[s mac]

Worth mentioning that some COWW's are very soft, and some SOWW's are very hard. Separate the "very soft" from the rest, you don't want to dilute your WW alloy. And "very soft alloy" is hard to come by in quantity.

Yes some stick on weights are iron or zinc, very hard indeed. They are a different size than the lead ones.

[lightman]

These guys have pretty well covered it. In your original post you mentioned a shop. If you have any scrap metal and a welder or know a welder, I have a plan that I used for a home made burner that I'll share with you. Happy smelting.

[tpepper70]

Heck yeah lightman. Pm if you don't mind. Thanks

[fredj338]

I also cover the pot loosely with a lid or even heavy alum foil. The trapped heat helps speed things up.

[tpepper70]

I was wondering about that fredj338. That would surely help.

[afish4570]

Make you have verified your "70 pounds" of weight are all Pb! Today we are seeing almost 50% loss due to Fe and Zn in there. You need to sort well prior to re-melting anything to insure you get pure lead alloy out of the process. Do not rely on your melt temp to sort for you. An uncontrolled open flame on a pan can get real hot real fast, even with a thermometer.

All the wok-like pans I have ever seen have a very small bottom/base and are designed to sit down in a holder over the burner. Small bottom = danger, Will Robinson! It can tip over very easy. Just plan ahead!

Back when I used to mess with COWW's, I fluxed with the clips still in to get all the Sn I could keep. Then skim and flux 3X afterward, stiring well. Last time, I put a small piece of candle wax in with the dust.

COWW's are generally 10-12 Bhn. SOWW's are pretty close to pure lead, but can vary slightly. Keep them separate......in my book anyway.

You will/may need some Sn added to your casting pot when you get around to dropping boolits. WW's only have 0.5% and most try to stay around 2% for excellent fill-out. Low Sn can create wrinkles and poor fillout of grease grooves and bottoms.

Being frugal is one thing. Being a cheap "tightwad" is another. You are saving lots of money re-melting lead for boolits over buying comcast and FMJ's so plan on spending some sufficient $$ on good eqipment.

Good luck on your initial endevour. This is not rocket science.....just simply re-melting lead into ingots! Have fun. And do it SAFELY!!!!!

banger-l

With any use your Coleman stove will end up with deformed sagging grates from the high heat, green paint will be burned off all around where smelting dutch oven is placed. With continued use the severe rusting will weaken and the sides of the stove will corrode and sag. Pop riveting some sheet metal will strengthen it and make a worthy of using again. The stove will be trashed if you value what it looks like and decide to cook breakfast for the kids again. Keep your eyes open and see if can buy an old Turkey Fryer cheap....don't want or need the alum. pot....just the burner portion.....never smelt in aluminum as it will fail eventually. Alittle experiences being passed on. afish4570

[blackthorn]

Apot can be made from an old 20 pound propane cylinder. Screw out the valve,fill the tank with water, use a zip-cut tool to cut a larger hole in the top ofthe tank. Next, dump out the water, lay the tank on its side and cut around thecircumference close to the "shoulder" on the tank. A makeshift burnercan be made using a Tiger torch, a 45 degree steel, galvanized or cast plumingelbow and 4 cement building blocks. Place the elbow on the ground, held inplace by the 4 blocks. Set the tank over the hole in the middle of the blocksand place the tiger torch in the lower end of the elbow. Fill (or whatever) thepot with scrap, light the torch and away you go. Be prepared to dip the meltedmetal out of the tank---you for sure will not lift it to pour! Have fun!

[tpepper70]

That's good idea. I'm starting off small till I get the hang of it then, knowing me, I'll step up to bigger stuff. Thanks for all the ideas and help. I plan on starting tomorrow.

[lightman]

PM on the way!

[tpepper70]

Great day at the house today. Got home from church and decided to smelt since the rain looked like it was gonna hold off. While my wife worked her harden, I got set up. Started out small with the 1st pot to figure it out. Smelted 3 pans which was all my COWW's. Ended up with 26 ingots weighing 35lbs total. I lost 11 pounds in steel clips etc. Things I learned; easier than I thought, things get very hot, my pan had some kind of coating that turned into a dust like particle that fluxed out, give the ingots plenty of time to cool and it goes quicker than I thought. I was done in less than an hour. Thanks for all the help and advice. I came away without injury thoroughly enjoying my new hobby. Thanks again. http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/04/12/4adf23f459a0ca78d6fbb53505fb45e2.jpg

[Mk42gunner]

Things I learned; easier than I thought, ...

I have tried to tell people that before, but until they actually do it they do not believe. What did you use for an ingot mold?

Stay safe and enjoy the hobby,

Robert

[tpepper70]

Mk42, so right. Very easy. I'm not sure what exactly it is. Some kind of cooking pan. I'll take a pic and post it this evening. The ingots came out weighing about 1.35lbs. Perfect size for a 10lb Lee pot.

[pappy4]

I use my coleman stove but I don't do that much at a time. 15 lbs when done. I put it in a stainless steel mixing bowl and dip it out with a soup ladle, into muffin pans. They pop out, its Teflon coated and just under 1lb ea . Never had any problems with it getting too hot. Stove is from the 60s. Started casting sinkers with it in the 70s and camping. Only thing I changed was the gas tube to burn reg gas. Still going strong, used it 2 week ago. Use the 20lb lee too cast with. Use the stove to clean up ww before it goes in the lee. Just my 2 cents.

[tpepper70]

I hear ya. I did 3 pans that netted a total of 35lb of ingots, so each pan was around 15lbs gross. Worked real good. The grates by the burner were glowing red when done, but nothing bent. I predict this stove was probably made late 60's to early 70's. Still works great.

[tpepper70]

Sorry MK. I forgot to post the pic a while back. Here's what I use for ingots. Not sure what it is but it makes ingots a little over a pound. http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/25/5b0cb60f4d48b4e27d327a65f62ede49.jpg