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View Full Version : Loading for 25+ years/ lead in all my bores/ nightmare



weasel 21
04-04-2015, 11:58 PM
All this time I thought I only have issues w/9mm & then I look in my other guns & I have out of control leading in ALL my guns I shoot lead in. 9ns, 38, 357, 44, 45acp, 45 colt, 25/35,30/30, 32mag, 45/70. Im overwhelmed . I cant believe people can get then right combo of powder, bullet, primer, lube to make a load that will be clean w/ a couple patches.

Ford SD
04-05-2015, 12:45 AM
All this time I thought I only have issues w/9mm & then I look in my other guns & I have out of control leading in ALL my guns I shoot lead in. 9ns, 38, 357, 44, 45acp, 45 colt, 25/35,30/30, 32mag, 45/70. Im overwhelmed . I cant believe people can get then right combo of powder, bullet, primer, lube to make a load that will be clean w/ a couple patches.

I think you jumped in with too many calibers all at once

45 acp should be the easiest to load lead bullets for.

Post you loads / what you are shooting in them and you should get lots of help here

I would almost say you have undersized bullets or trying to push them too fast

altheating
04-05-2015, 05:51 AM
Please tell us, do you use gas checks, what size are you sizing your boolits to?

NC_JEFF
04-05-2015, 06:28 AM
Look on the bright side, you get a lot of tries at dialing in a load for each gun. I would start with the 38/357 or one of the 45s. FordSD had a great suggestion, post some load data and gun manufacturer info and help will show up. Have fun with it, this has the potential of being a nice summer project. Good luck weasel

kweidner
04-05-2015, 07:17 AM
Use a chore boy, it will get the lead out in no time flat. Pick a low pressure round as stated 45 acp would be great to start, Use a good lube or coat. Not all alloy will work under all conditions. 92/6/2 will do most but in reality only good for competition and plinking. 3 things possible here alloy, lube, sizing.

weasel 21
04-05-2015, 08:38 AM
Chore boy didn't work-pieces of copper everywhere . Latest failure was 4.7 gr bullseye w/230gr bullet in a Colt 1911 lead smeared all over the bore in less than 50 shots Took me over3 days of scrubbing w/ a lewis lead remover . That worked on the lands; I still got lead smeared in the grooves. Ive used commercially cast & hand cast sized .001-.002 over bore size .I know the concept is to prevent leading in the first place by getting the right formula- But even when I follow well established criteria I still seem to have lead in the bore & a nightmare in removing it

Beagle333
04-05-2015, 08:47 AM
You gotta take the Chore Boy and unravel it. Then wind and weave a single strand at a time around and down into a regular bronze brush for that caliber until it almost wont fit in the barrel. That'll add a LOT of cleaning power to a brush and will pull all the lead out, even if you can't see the grooves any more. Go at it with a bottle Hoppes #9 and it'll shine up pretty nicely and fast too.

If you got a really really leaded up barrel..... start out with one caliber smaller bronze brush than you should be using, and wrap and weave that one full of Chore Boy strands and clean it out until you can get the one that is the right caliber size in there.

Be sure you have a 100% pure copper Chore Boy. There are some pure copper coated scrubbing pads out there that you don't want. Always get Chore Boy or O'Cedar.

dragon813gt
04-05-2015, 08:55 AM
You have some lube issues if you're leading up every one. 45 is one of the most forgiving rounds so something is seriously wrong if you leaded one up.

dubber123
04-05-2015, 09:11 AM
Leading can happen for sure, but something is seriously amiss if you are getting that much in that array of calibers. My 1911 has only had the chamber brushed out in close to 10,000 rounds. It is spotless other than a little unburnt powder. These are full power loads too. The latest .357 mag I have been shooting has perhaps a few hundred through it, and it likewise spotless. The load is very close to 1,500 fps. I hope you get your issue ironed out. Good luck.

zomby woof
04-05-2015, 09:17 AM
sounds like a lube problem. Try coated boolits.

RobsTV
04-05-2015, 09:24 AM
sounds like a lube problem. Try coated boolits.

With so many calibers going wrong, I agree 100% with this advice. Since it seems you need to start all over again with everything, I suggest DTPC. Easier than conventional lube, much less mess, no smoke or leading. In all those calibers never had leading issues using Carnauba Red, and I still am switching over to PC boolits for the simplicity and less cleanup required.

longbow
04-05-2015, 09:55 AM
A little more information would be helpful:

- slugged bore sizes
- bullet sized diameters
- gas check or plain base
- with or without gas check
- lube type
- lead alloy
- powder and charge
- how many shots until the bores leaded
- photos of the bores would help too ~ a gray wash is not leading
- accuracy

I can't imagine that you have shot all those calibers until leading was so bad that none are shootable anymore. Assuming you have then the lead has to be removed. If you are not getting anywhere with a copper scrub pad and with so many to do then you might want to look into an electronic lead removal method. You can buy one or make it yourself quite easily.

Like I said, it would help to have more facts and some photos of the bores.

If leading is that bad then you have some fundamental loading issues wrong.

Longbow

w5pv
04-05-2015, 09:58 AM
Make you some of Ben's Red lube,I think that your leading problem will be over.I have used it it ever caliber from 32,380,9mm,gas checked 3006,45 acp and 45 colt with no leading.I don't hot rod any of these calibers.Just medium loading at the top end on all.

RobS
04-05-2015, 10:17 AM
Your boolit diameter may be .001 to .002" over bore diameter when first starting out. You may want to pull a boolit from a loaded round and measure the very edge of the base of the boolit. In the reloading process a boolit can be swaged down to a smaller diameter either during the seating process or the crimping. It sounds like you may have undersized boolits. The advice to use powder coat or Hi-tek coating isn't a end all solution by the way as an undersized boolit will still not be as accurate even though it may not lead etc.

The list above about more information would definitely help so we can better figure things out.

fredj338
04-05-2015, 10:39 AM
You would be one of the few to have such a problem, if you are doing things right. Some bores just lead, nothing to do for them but possibly lapping. I agree, if starting bullet size is correct, could be your dies or process resizing at seating. Could be lube, but just about anything works for low pressure 45. I've gone 1000rds before cleaning many of my 45s.
i run non gc bullets in all my stuff, 9mm thru hvy 45colt, even 45-70, multiple guns in each.There has never been an issue w/ leading I can't get done with a patch & solvent at best or a couple passes with a ChorBoy wrapped brush. That is running vel of 750-1550fps.

canyon-ghost
04-05-2015, 11:01 AM
Let's get you back to working. Bronze brush, acetone for carnuba lube. Acetone is the dissolver of lubes but, is only for this type use. Mineral spirits to follow. If you shoot jacketed before switching to lead, it makes a mess like that. Once you think they're sparkling clean (almost), then use a copper solvent to get any copper fouling out. Mineral spirits is all I have to use to keep them clean. I did this sort of thing on the 41 mag blackhawk, dang.

I use Red Label Carnuba lube for everything out of convenience in a Lyman 4500. The right sizing helps but, you gotta start from NO copper fouling. I have a 44 special that has never had a jacketed or half jacket fired in it. Just my lead reloads.

I sympathize, that's a ton of cleaning.

Blackwater
04-05-2015, 11:08 AM
First, I think we need to know the real extent of the problem. When you say you have "out of control" leading all over the bore, just exactly what does that mean? Sometimes, a given load may leave streaks of lead in the grooves, but they'll shoot out with each successive shot, and do not build up. It's when the leading builds up that you need to worry. To what extent is the lead there? Words are a poor tool to "draw a picture" with, but it's all we've got in this electronic netherworld.

How long have you been shooting the gun between cleanings?

Your problem may be several issues, like too small a bullet diameter, cylinder throats tighter than the barrel groove diameter, too soft an alloy for the pressures you're loading at, poor lube .... any number of things. To work it out, we need to know the specifics of what you're doing: Alloy, have you slugged your barrel and cylinder throats, what load(s) you're typically using, and what lube you're using and how you're applying it. Give us the info and we'll git-r-done PDQ, I think. There's way too much collective knowledge and experience here to keep shooting problem loads and let all of it go to waste.

DougGuy
04-05-2015, 11:38 AM
Alloy really hard? Lube hard? Will lead the dickens out of a bore no matter what powder/velocity you use. I'm shooting 50/50+2% and 20:1 and some Lyman #2 in .45 Colt and .44 Magnum, with Felix lube, and I don't even clean the barrels. I get a black bore with lube, a lube star at the muzzle, and NO leading to speak of. I'm shooting the Lee RF boolits and they are gas checked, but the alloy and lube combo is what keeps the leading down. 1200f/s in the .44 Magnum and 1100f/s in the .45 Colt.

The WORST leaders, are the hard commercially cast boolits with hard blue lube. It would not surprise me, to see one lead the bore from pushing it through trying to slug the bore with it.


As mentioned by Blackwater, ALL it takes to lead a single action Ruger, is to shoot cast boolits through cylinder throats that are smaller than groove diameter.

If your autopistols have no throat and you are seating deep in the case so they will chamber and fire, the end of the chamber will shave lead and subsequent rounds will push it through the bore.

Every one of your guns you need to look at what's going on with them on a one-on-one basis. Take one and slug the cylinder throats or mic them or use a pin gage, slug it's bore, and post the measurements, post the boolit diameter, hardness, what lube, what powder and what charge weight.

rsrocket1
04-05-2015, 11:45 AM
This much Chore Boy:

I do think something is terribly wrong with your setup. Chances are your bullets are too small for the bore.

texassako
04-05-2015, 11:56 AM
Your topic is so broad that it could be something different in each gun, and probably multiple issues. I suggest pick one and give as many details of the loads and gun as you can. I would say start with the 38. Also keep in mind a high antimony alloy can leave an antimony wash that can trick you into thinking everything is leaded.

weasel 21
04-05-2015, 12:37 PM
45colt-ruger
44mag-ruger/smith
38/357-ruger/smith
32mag-ruger
Ive read about revolver cylinder to barrel fit,dont really know that much about how to fix that
The bullets I bought were .001 over, I have no knowledge of alloy; the ones I cast were wheelweights, I have pan lubed w/Darr
the posted picture looks like strands of cb over a mop of steel wool. I know that st should never be run down the bore

DougGuy
04-05-2015, 02:23 PM
Start with one gun. Do you know how to slug a barrel? How to slug a cylinder throat? There are threads on this forum where you can read how to measure all these things. So far, you are giving us zilch to work with. This stuff is done in thousandths and ten thousandths and there are ways to measure this. Without measurements, it's like buying tires for a car, you walk in and say I need 4 tires for this car, they say what model car is it? You say "a blue one."

The Ruger in .45 Colt. Start with that one since most of us know those are notorious for having cylinder throats too small to shoot cast boolits decently because they will undersize the boolit when you shoot them. This causes leading like mad because you have a boolit smaller than the bore diameter with burning powder gas escaping all down the sides of it melting lead and depositing it in the barrel like crazy.

What do you size your .45 Colt boolits to? Try this simple test.. Can you push one of the boolits into the cylinder throats from the front? If not, then the throat is too tight and will need the cylinder sent to a guy like me who reams and hones these out to half a thousandth over the boolit diameter so that when you shoot it, the boolit is not undersized and it will fit the bore and seal and this alone cuts down on the leading and gives about a 4x boost to the accuracy. This is very common with the .44 and .45 caliber Ruger single action revolvers, and they respond VERY favorably to having the cylinder throats "dimensionally corrected" for shooting cast boolits. This is one of the BEST things you can do for a Ruger SA revolver.

Then, you need to work on your loads. Mix your wheel weight with equal part pure lead to soften it up a bit. Use soft lube, size the boolit to .452" and load them. What is your load data for the .45 Colt? What boolit style/mold?

My own Ruger Vaquero, cylinder throats reamed to .4525" barrel Taylor throated to remove a really bad thread choke, I load the fat Lee 300gr RF boolits over Ruger Only charges of LilGun for 1100 fps velocity, I can scratch the boolit with a fingernail, lube is Felix lube, and I never even clean this gun. It doesn't lead. AT ALL. I have found the combination to be in the dimensions of the cylinder throats, and alloy matched to the barrel twist at the velocity I shoot it with. It just works. THIS is what we can try for in yours, but you have to start with one, list the dimensions, list the components of your load, the boolit, size, powder, primer, brass, etc... It all starts here. People here will be glad to help you try and find what your guns like and try to make some progress. You just got to come up with the answers when someone asks a question.

Larry Gibson
04-05-2015, 02:29 PM
weasel 21

Can you post a picture of the bullets you bought and the ones you cast?

Also what loads were you using?

Larry Gibson

jonp
04-05-2015, 02:42 PM
Chore boy didn't work-pieces of copper everywhere . Latest failure was 4.7 gr bullseye w/230gr bullet in a Colt 1911 lead smeared all over the bore in less than 50 shots Took me over3 days of scrubbing w/ a lewis lead remover . That worked on the lands; I still got lead smeared in the grooves. Ive used commercially cast & hand cast sized .001-.002 over bore size .I know the concept is to prevent leading in the first place by getting the right formula- But even when I follow well established criteria I still seem to have lead in the bore & a nightmare in removing it

Take the barrel out of the pistol. Run a goodly amount of Kroil down the bore then zip up the barrel in a ziploc bag with a saturated patch and let sit over night or for a couple of days then run the copper choirboy unstrung and wrapped around an old brush down the bore

bangerjim
04-05-2015, 03:10 PM
Dump the grease. I switched to power coating in EVERYTHING I shoot (223-45) and now have absolutely ZERO leading in every gun! It really works!

No leading. No smoke. No sticky dirty boolits. Easy to do. Infinite storage. Minimum worry about the "right alloy". Stretch your alloys by shooting softer boolits.

Cant beat that! Works for me and thousands of others on here. Try it....you WILL be amazed at how easy the clean-up is after several hundred rounds thru a gun (2 patches for me).

banger-j

runfiverun
04-05-2015, 03:52 PM
if you got problems in everything powder coating won't save you.

you got a problem somewhere else besides the boolits and lube.
look to your reloading practices or die sets.

bangerjim
04-05-2015, 04:56 PM
if you got problems in everything powder coating won't save you.

you got a problem somewhere else besides the boolits and lube.
look to your reloading practices or die sets.

Agree 100%. PC will only help if one is casting & loading correctly. It is NOT a cure-all! B4 PC, I had minimum leading. Now none. But most things were "tweeked" correctly to start with. Problems that severe across the entire range of guns is unusual! The OP needs to start with one cal he likes and work on that until he learns what is wrong and how to correct it. Then transfoer that knowledge to the other guns.

Good luck!

banger-j

nicholst55
04-05-2015, 05:00 PM
if you got problems in everything powder coating won't save you.

you got a problem somewhere else besides the boolits and lube.
look to your reloading practices or die sets.

Lots of very good advice here in this thread. I agree that in this instance, simply switching to powder coated bullets would, at best, be a band-aid approach. Once in a while a person gets lucky and assembles a cast bullet load at random and it works. That's usually not the case, and it's why so many try cast bullets one time and then quit, bad-mouthing everything about the subject for the rest of their lives.

If you match the alloy to the pressure, the bullet diameter to the barrel groove diameter, and use an adequate lube, everything SHOULD come together. If it doesn't, something else is wrong. You just have to troubleshoot one variable at a time until you determine exactly what is wrong.

bhn22
04-05-2015, 05:54 PM
Cast bullets have different reloading rules from jacketed. First things first, did you follow the advice given about using threads of Chore Boy on a brass brush to remove the leading? It will take a little bit, but the bores will come clean again, I promise. Leading is actually easier to remove than jacketed fouling is.

Next, my understanding is that you used commercial cast bullets. Most commercially cast bullets are too hard for many lower pressure calibers and loads. Bullets that are too hard often lead the bores if their sizing isn't absolutely perfect for the particular bore size, and very few really are. There are a number of threads here on slugging bores to determine bore size. This will be the next thing to check. Let us know what you find and someone will be along to help you from there.

canyon-ghost
04-05-2015, 06:49 PM
You aren't by chance mistaking powder fouling for lead, are you? Powder fouling is gray in color too.

gefiltephish
04-05-2015, 09:05 PM
Loading for 25+ years/ lead in all my bores/ nightmare

All this time I thought I only have issues w/9mm & then I look in my other guns & I have out of control leading in ALL my guns I shoot lead in. 9ns, 38, 357, 44, 45acp, 45 colt, 25/35,30/30, 32mag, 45/70. Im overwhelmed . I cant believe people can get then right combo of powder, bullet, primer, lube to make a load that will be clean w/ a couple patches.

Does this mean you've been reloading lead for 25 years and are just now realizing you've got a leading issue? Or, does this mean that after 25 years of reloading jacketed bullets you've just recently started loading lead? I (and apparently others) presume the latter, but it wouldn't hurt to clarify.

You also really need to be more forthcoming with the details, especially relating to guns, groove diameters, exact bullets, alloy and bhn if possible, lube, powder and charge etc, as others have already pointed out. The minimal info you've supplied so far is not really enough for anyone to return anything meaningful beyond generic suggestions.

As someone else mentioned, if you haven't thoroughly cleaned your bores of all copper fouling BEFORE shooting lead, you're likely just spitting into the wind.

All that said, I too have had zero leading problems after converting to powder coating.

weasel 21
04-06-2015, 12:02 AM
Ive been reloading for 25 + yrs. All the handguns were loaded w/commercial cast at the begining .My rifles M1, M1 carbine always used jacketed. Ive always knew what was necessary to make cast bullets shoot. When I would start to develop a load I would usually start in the middle w/ data from all the published manuals. My handgun powders were usually fast burning; bullseye, red dot, green dot, unique.I noticed right away that there was a lot of lead in the bores of the guns & it was pretty hard to get rid of it. I follow the data from the manuals as I figured why would the manufacturers put out bunk info. No I really haven't slugged the bores. I guess that should be done.

RobsTV
04-06-2015, 07:43 AM
Ive been reloading for 25 + yrs. All the handguns were loaded w/commercial cast at the begining .My rifles M1, M1 carbine always used jacketed. Ive always knew what was necessary to make cast bullets shoot......No I really haven't slugged the bores. I guess that should be done.

There you go, you already knew the answer for the first place to start. Don't forget to slug the cylinders as well.

Reloading dies are usually geared toward jacketed. You will need to pull a few of your rounds to see if the lead is being sized down by your dies or brass. Also, too much crimp is bad. Don't count on the advertised hardness of commercial being correct, as it usually is the starting point, with most harder, sometimes much harder than advertised. With light loads that could create leading problems, especially using crappy lube designed more for shipping than shooting.

runfiverun
04-06-2015, 10:10 AM
weasel I think you're getting a bit scattered here.

pick one gun out of the bunch and start from scratch.
clean the barrel down to bare metal, this includes the copper fouling.
now read what doug guy wrote, I didn't read it but I know it's good advice.
he can help you find your dimensions [and can probably fix those dimensions depending on the revolver/pistol you have]

once you have done that you'll start to get an understanding on how cast boolits work in a gun.
[and why I still haven't bought a new 9mm pistol even though I have been looking for over a year now.]
there are workarounds for just about every combination of boolit bhn and diameter versus gun dimensions out there.
but you have to understand what your working with first.

1Shirt
04-06-2015, 10:25 AM
Pay attention to runfiverun! Chances are you are running to small a projectile to start out with! Get a good lube (White Label or Ben's red), then go back and read DougGuy.
1Shirt!

1bluehorse
04-06-2015, 11:56 AM
All very good advice, and correct as well..........but if we're going first things first then lets forget about lubes, alloys, and loads for a moment....to shoot cast bullets successfully, (read accurately with little to no leading) FIRST THE GUN NEEDS TO BE DIMENSIONALLY CORRECT.........revolvers, (I know little of auto's) cylinder throats need to be at least 1 to 2 thousandths LARGER than bore diameter and preferably all the same, (easy to do or have done if needed) bore should have no constrictions/restrictions (can be fixed by fire lapping if needed)......once you obtain these goals THEN you start with the bullet sizing needed, lube, and load work.....start at the start line...JMO...

Prospector Howard
04-06-2015, 12:20 PM
RobsTV touched on something that is overlooked alot. You didn't mention if you're using a crimp die. The pistol Lee factory crimp dies can cause problems swaging the boolit down in size depending on how it's used, and then you'll have leading issues. The taper crimp die is a much better option for pistol cartridges IMO.

Larry Gibson
04-06-2015, 12:57 PM
Ive been reloading for 25 + yrs. All the handguns were loaded w/commercial cast at the begining .My rifles M1, M1 carbine always used jacketed. Ive always knew what was necessary to make cast bullets shoot. When I would start to develop a load I would usually start in the middle w/ data from all the published manuals. My handgun powders were usually fast burning; bullseye, red dot, green dot, unique.I noticed right away that there was a lot of lead in the bores of the guns & it was pretty hard to get rid of it. I follow the data from the manuals as I figured why would the manufacturers put out bunk info. No I really haven't slugged the bores. I guess that should be done.

Data for cast bullets or for jacketed bullets? Start loads are generally there as "start" loads". Starting in the "middle", especially with jacketed loads could be a problem.

Most commercial cast bullets use a very poor lube which probably accounts for the leading with those.

What specific loads are you using?

What specific cast bullets are you using?

Are you using GC'd bullets in the M1 Carbine and M1 Rifle?

Hard to give answers what to do when we don't really have any idea what you ARE doing.

Larry Gibson

waksupi
04-06-2015, 02:01 PM
Keep in mind, little that you learned when reloading applies to handloading with cast bullets. See my tag line!

fredj338
04-06-2015, 02:25 PM
TO be honest, I don't slug my bores. I go 0.001-0.002" over spec bore dia. I have too many guns running lead bullets. I am not about to do custom ammo for all. I do pin gage my rev cyl, if too small I have them opened up. Any leading I get is minimal & easily cleaned with normal methods. Stubborn leading, if any, gets ChorBoy. I also try to never run lead over copper & vise versa. The only rifles I currently run lead bullets in are 45-70. I like to cast boolits & shoot but I am no purist.:oops:

gloob
04-06-2015, 09:46 PM
Simplified loading for cast bullets: it's all about size. The end-game is to ensure the bullet is completely filling the bore, all the way from the leade to the crown, as well as is possible.

If the bullet is too small, it will foul the bore. The case and/or crimp die can make the bullet smaller, so pull bullets to check diameter, use the proper expanders where indicated, and crimp as little as is necessary. Make sure you aren't shaving lead while seating/crimping. Do NOT use an FCD on pistol ammo.

If the bullet is too big... nonsense. There is no such thing, until it can't fit in the chamber/cylinder.

So you will need to buy the right bullet sizer... NOT. If you're paying attention, it will follow that the only reason to buy a bullet sizer is if your bullets are too big to chamber. Bullet sizers cannot make your bullet bigger, only smaller. Fouling is caused by bullets that are too small. Sizing bullets cannot decrease fouling.

If you're using the biggest bullets that will fit the chamber and you still get fouling, then you have to start looking at other factors. This can include slugging the bore to rule out bore to chamber/cylinder mismatches and constrictions. Sorting and using thinner brass, so you can load larger bullets. Checking timing on your revo's. Using SOFTER alloys to bump up and seal if you have minor constrictions or minor chamber/bore mismatch (when using softer alloys, make sure to recheck your bullets for case-swaging; you may need a new expander). Lapping bores that are rough or have constrictions. But if you are having issues with that many guns, you probably don't have a gun/mechanical issue with ALL of them.

If all else fails, buy a Glock. By virtue of how they are make, Glock bores are smooth as a baby's bottom and 99% of the time you will not have a constriction nor an overly tight chamber. Clean out all traces of copper fouling. Follow all of the preceding advice. If you can't get a Glock to shoot cast bullets, cleanly, you should just give up, because you have two left thumbs.