Cast 35 Rem. in Marlin Lever Exploratory Thread

[Just Duke]

After seeing the kind of accuracy a couple of the members have got with their Marlin 35 Remington 336 and cast bullets, I are very seriously looking at picking up two rifles for the wife and I.
The main reason for us is free and endless supply of lead bullets.
Heck even if the world came to an end we could just walk down the highway with a screw driver and a wheel barrel and pull weights off abandoned cars. lol ; )

The deciding factor would be BRASS LONGEVITY.
I had a 356 Winchester at on time I wanted and endless supply of bullets so I started casting for it. I never got past the jacketed reloads I made. (1992)
Chambering was a problem. Rimmed brass in a lever action do not like to be reloaded. Others here have proven that wrong and I would like to find out what I did wrong in the past so I can proceed to the future.

What dies would one use to reload 35 Remington with and what also escapes me is what flaring die I was going to use on my cast bullets.

Can you also recommend a bullet mould. We have given RANCH DOG a serious look but wish he had a 35 cal bullet (and a 500 grain 45-70 bullet). The fellow seems to have done his home work very well and made some fantastic strides in bullet design.
TIA,
Duke

[Just Duke]

Here is the post by Chuck that thoughly impressed me.



My 1950 Marlin 336A .30-30 (Ballard rifled) , 311041 WW+tin sized .3095 with 18 gr. IMR 4198 at 1595 fps. 50 yd,target w/irons
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c356/chuckleininger/IMG_1138.jpg


My Marlin 336 SC .35 Rem (Ballard rifled) Lyman 200 gr. RN sized .359, WW+tin IMR 4198 , 50yd. w/irons
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c356/chuckleininger/IMG_1143.jpg
Have fun:-D




336 MG...35 Rem....RCBS 200 FP...ACWW.

At 2050 fps. with WC846 it consistantly does 1.75" at 100, slightly better with IMR 3031.


Jerry






I took my 50's era Marlin 336A out to the range yesterday to try out some 220 grain GC bullets cast in a NEI mold. 17 grains of H4227 delivered so-so results, but the group shot with 30 grains of 4320 punched this excellent group at 100 yards.

John





Lloyd , I fool with all of Ranch Dogs moulds .

And I have tried them all in micro barrels with excellent results !!
Shot the 35 cal 180 grain bullet in a 336ER (356 WIN) this summer with some one hole 3 shot groups !!!

I used to be a doubter of micro and cast . But since starting to mess with the Ranch Dog variety of cast bullets I am a firm believer in micro and cast !!!!

[cbrick]

Duke,

Here's an article on the 35 Remington that will answer many of your questions.

The .35 Remington: (http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell35RemingtonLevergun.htm)

[felix]

You are in a great position with your Marlin 35 Remmie acquisitions. Starting from scratch. The following is exactly what I would do:

1. Purchase both guns at once, with serial numbers as close as is possible.
2. Purchase ONE 20 round box of factory rounds for each gun with 200 grain bullets.
3. Shoot both guns keeping their rounds (new and old) in their purchased boxes.
4. Shoot all of the rounds. Sight the guns in, if you will.
4. Clean 3 rounds from each box, and paint the primers with a unique color from
each box with finger nail paint. This will keep the cases separate by gun.
5. Send the cases to a die manufacturer having a straight line seater die.
That would be Hornady or Bonanza/Forester. I prefer the latter.
6. Have a single die set made using the cases from the smallest chambered gun.
The manufacturer will use a special optical comparator using the cases sent
to determine which gun will be selected. These dies then will make ammo for
both guns. Let the manufacturer know this is a Marlin lever gun, so the dies
can be made approximately smaller by 0.001 at the base of the dies than for
a high force camming bolt gun. Request that the neck portion of the dies be
made for LEAD bullets, which would generate only about 0.002 compression
on a bullet upward sized to meet the chamber specs. Emphasize that
specifically and emphatically. You are interested in what is called minimimum
sizing full length die set.
7. Prepare your cases with a 22 degree neck I.D. shaver. Lyman has them.
Do NOT use any belling operation.
8. Select bullet diameter to make the gun cycle completely with the magazine
completely full without moving the bullets back into, or out of, their respective
cases. Start with 358 diameter bullets. If they work fine, and shoot fine using
full magazine, then you know the boolit size required. Obtain sample boolits
from the board, preferably sized from 358 thru 360.
9. Have the die manufacturer send you a custom shell holder that will hold
headspace for the smallest length. You can back the sizing die out for the gun
having the longest length, or have two shell holders made, one for each gun.

... felix

[Just Duke]

Ouch! Custom die? How much do those run? I believe that was the problem with my 356 Wichester is my shell holder was too tall. Very much appreciate the info Felix but do most of the guys here have custom dies made up for grand-dads lever action? Respectfully speaking of course.

[felix]

If you can afford two new 35 Marlins, you can damn well afford a custom die set. ... felix

[Scrounger]

I'm with you, Duke. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link, and in this case the quality of the barrels, the two piece stock, the magazine tube, and probably the shooter (no offense) limit the accuracy that will be possible. All the benchrest technique and equipment in the world won't make a gun shoot better than its barrel is capable of. Excuse my grammar.

[Just Duke]

If you can afford two new 35 Marlins, you can damn well afford a custom die set. ... felix

Just got off the phone with Bonaza and they said the die set would be $160.00 and be more like bench rest die set. They said to send in the cast bullet I am going to use and they would make it fit to the seater. The cost is not the problem, it just seems like a lot of unnessary effort. I mean, I am sure people have been loading for years using box stock dies for 35 Rem. and 30-30 right?

[felix]

Yep! Just a couple of years ago they made mine for 100 even. The objective in that situation reported to you on the phone is to see how big the boolits have to be before sending in the cases. You will need chamber casts in that situation. ... felix

[garandsrus]

Duke,

I load .35 Rem with Lee dies and don't have any trouble...

The RCBS-35-200 mold is very well thought of for .35 Rem.

John

[KYCaster]

Duke,

I load .35 Rem with Lee dies and don't have any trouble...

The RCBS-35-200 mold is very well thought of for .35 Rem.

John


Yeah, what John said. It works OK for me.

Jerry

[35remington]

Might I suggest the Lee Collet Die? It is excellent for sizing with minimal runout and is tailor made for cast bullets. Using it, one can size the case minimally and adjustably depending upon how much of a squeeze you decide the collet needs to put on the case neck. Runout is very minimal which is just what is desired.

You can reduce the neck diameter less for lead bullets, more for the skinnier jacketed.

This is an in stock item, and the price is quite reasonable. As in 35 bucks for the two die set, as I recall. While the Lee Factory Crimp die is a nice item for jacketed bullets, I avoid it for cast, as the crimp does not iron out of the case upon firing and it tends to put the squeeze on the lead bullet as it passes through the case mouth.

Be advised the "dead length" Lee seating die is bored out with minimal clearance for jacketed bullets; lead bullets that measure .360-.361", which I prefer for Microgroove Marlins, get swaged down to .358-.359" when passing through this die. In my use I size with the Lee Collet and seat with an RCBS seating die, which has a straight line feature; RCBS does not state as much but this feature has been part of their seating dies since the beginning. With sticky lubes you may be doing some cleaning; Lee Liquid Alox is a pain in the butt in this seating die, as cleaning it out demands a soak in carb cleaner. I prefer filling the lube grooves as the necessity of seating die cleanout is delayed considerably

Flaring die? Lyman "M" die in .35 Short using conventional neck or full length sizing dies.

With the Collet die, you may size minimally for the lead bullet and forego the M die, flaring with a pair of needlenose pliers or the Lee flaring die if you're loading semi progressively and need a die to do the job.

For some reason I've been having a bad run of luck with excessive runout in my full length .35 Remington sizing dies, and the Lee Collet was purchased as a quick cure. When I say excessive, I mean .005-.009 thousandths. No kidding. Even after messing with the expander ball and sizing without it. The Lee Collet reduces this to .001-.002 thousandths at most depending upon how ham handed I am. This definitely shows up on target. This drove me to distraction for awhile until I checked the rounds for runout.

Mould? I agree with the RCBS 200 FN. Try 33-35 grains IMR 3031 to start if full power loads are of interest. The ideal situation is a good Microgroove rifle with a bit of wear in the leade; it will shoot this bullet cast of straight wheelweights from 1950-2070 fps with good accuracy for about 12-15 shots before groups start opening up. I mention this specifically because straight wheelweights make a fine deer bullet, slightly soft though they may be. To have accuracy hold up over a string of shots, try a somewhat harder alloy but don't go overboard. The RCBS usually casts from .3585-.359" or a smidge over depending upon alloy and works well, but in a perfect world I prefer larger in diameter if I can get it somehow.

I'm sorry to say you just missed out on a modified RCBS design having a larger diameter as cast dimension (.360-.361") and a larger forepart diameter we just ran in a six cavity design. Weight with gas check and lube runs to 222 grains or so, about 8 grains heavier than the RCBS mould throws. The idea with this one was to optimize the bullet for the Marlin. RCBS did a fair job of that already; we just took it a little further. Beagle your mould and see if that makes any difference. With an obturating wheelweight bullet you may figure the as cast diameter will change when bumped but a bullet that starts out a little bigger is better. Given all that the RCBS off the shelf mould shoots fine.

Speaking of throat, most .35 336's don't really have one, just an overlong chamber neck with a short, sharp taper to the rifling origin. When seated to the crimp groove, the RCBS bullet has the gascheck protruding just below the neck/shoulder junction. Taking all this in, it's remarkable that they shoot lead as well as they do, but they will do it.

As to case life, if the case is not fitted to the chamber on initial firing, and assuming your rifle has agreeable headspace, case life with the aforementioned 3031 load is around 28-29 firings/reloadings before a head separation becomes imminent in my rifles (Microgroove 336's). That's not bad. Fitting the case to the chamber using new brass extends that another 4-5 reloadings or so. Good case life with a mild load.

[Just Duke]

Did I read that right? 28 to 29 firings for case life?

[35remington]

Yes, if headspace is minimal and factory brass does not stretch excessively on first firing. Or if new cases are carefully fitted to the chamber to eliminate first shot stretching from somewhat undersized factory or new brass.

My older 336 has somewhat more generous headspace and this case life is only obtained when cases are fit to this gun. Shooting factory loads or new brass without fitting halves case life from what is possible in this gun.

This was done for my information only and is not a recommendation nor a guarantee of what you will receive in case life, just what is possible with a load that is actually generating somewhere around 28-30,000 psi.

It is possible, if loads are held to this level, to go the whole distance only neck sizing cases without one full length sizing needed. However, neck sizing does not extend case life one iota. Case life is the same regardless of sizing method if full length sizing is properly done.

[S.B.]

I load for my 336 RC with RCBS production dies and it does quite well, thankyou. After reading this thread, I'm going to look at some lyman molds(or whoever) for a 200 grainer?
Thanks, good thread!

[cbrick]

S.B., have a look at the RCBS 200 gr that 35remington mentioned, an accurate heavy FP. Its 212 gr in WW with my mould.

[S.B.]

cbrick, Thanks, I'll take a peek?
Steve

[jlchucker]

I agree with GARANDSRUS. I use RCBS and Lee off-the-shelf dies. I have a brother who uses Lyman. We both use the proper lyman M die prior to bullet seating. No problems. I don't save my paper targets, but my 35 Rems, when shooting either Remington Corelocts (200 gr) or wheelweight bullets cast with an RCBS 200gr flatnose mold group nearly as well as those depicted in the photos sent in by other posters. FELIX may have his own good reasons for his recommendations, but in my personal experience I have found off-the shelf dies to work perfectly well. One thing, though. The little shoulder on the 35 Rem case is easy to set back while crimping. This problem goes away if you take the extra step to crimp with a Lee Factory Crimp Die. Enjoy your 35s.

[felix]

See post #14. ... felix

[Larry Gibson]

Duke Nukem

I agree with 35Remington (other posts provide good info too) except that I don't have a Marlin rifle. I have a M91 Argentine Mauser that I rebarreled to 35 Remington with a Shilen barrel. I use a Redding neck size die and a regular set of RCBS dies for FL sizing (only needed when initially sizing new cases) and seating. I also have the Lee collet die but the cap on the collet stripped (got to get a new one one of these days) and found that that cast bullets over .359 get swaged down also. The RCBS works just fine with my .360 bullets. I also use a 35-200-FN RCBS bullet (standard RCBS mould) over 32-37 gr of 4895 for 1950-2125 fps. I recently used on new W-W case and loaded it 20 times with the 32 gr load (1950 fps) just neck sizingand it is still fine. That load is comparable to 35Remington's and thus I expect case life to be pretty much the same.

The .35 Remington is an excellent cast bullet cartridge. With 200-225 gr cast bullets it is an excellent deer/elk/blk bear cartridge. With the pleathora of molds available for 38/357s alongwith commercial cast available the plinking and hunting possibilities are pretty much endless. A 358156 GC SWC at 2000 fps is no slouch in the hunting department either.

Larry Gibson

[Just Duke]

:-d.............

[Lloyd Smale]

duke i load them with a set of lee dies and havent had a problem. What ive done recently is bought a lee collet die too and keep my brass seperated to the gun they were shot in and neck size with it when im using light cast loads and the brass lasts ALONG time. The rcbs bullet is a good one and i just recently had veral smith cut me a 220 lfngc (he calls it a round flat) I bought that bullet mold mostly for the 356 but it works great in the 35rem too. I use an m die to flare and just crimp enough to remove the flair. Ive shot many groups under 2 inch at a 100 yards and some one inch like that. For a fun load try a 150 grain cast pistol bullet and 7 grains of unique. Its like shooting a 22.

[Just Duke]

duke i load them with a set of lee dies and havent had a problem. What ive done recently is bought a lee collet die too and keep my brass seperated to the gun they were shot in and neck size with it when im using light cast loads and the brass lasts ALONG time. The rcbs bullet is a good one and i just recently had veral smith cut me a 220 lfngc (he calls it a round flat) I bought that bullet mold mostly for the 356 but it works great in the 35rem too. I use an m die to flare and just crimp enough to remove the flair. Ive shot many groups under 2 inch at a 100 yards and some one inch like that. For a fun load try a 150 grain cast pistol bullet and 7 grains of unique. Its like shooting a 22.

Wow! I am going to have to loads some 150's up for the wife to plink with. Thanks that sounds reall cool! :-D

[Just Duke]

Another happy camper. [smilie=1:


http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=24067

[Wayne Smith]

Duke

Felix didn't tell you but he was addressing the case to chamber fit issue which is essential in lever actions to minimize case expansion. If you want maximum case life re-read his first post. Any other die will oversize the shells causing brass movement upon firing. If you have dies made to your chamber you essentially replicate the process of neck sizing in a bolt action rifle, but in a lever. At this point, just as in the bolt, you need to also think of neck annealing of your brass 'cause that's where they will fail. just as they typical failure without custom dies will be base separation.

Granted, its an expensive way to go, but if you want to maximize case life and accuracy in a lever action its the only way to go.

[Scrounger]

There are some fellows that set up their dies to size only that portion of the case that the bullet occupies. Neck sizing pistol cases I guess you'd call that.