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JIMinPHX
03-10-2008, 12:34 AM
I shot my first batch of home cast .22s today. I was using 13-BNH 55-grain Lyman 225415 FN GC boolits over W-748 in a .223 with a 1:12 twist. I shot into a crumb rubber trap at 50 yards. Terminal performance was very good in the 2200-2800fps range. I got very good mushrooming. Depth of penetration in the crumb rubber was about 10-16". I got no leading in the barrel, even though I ran the speed all the way up to 3,000fps. I did get some leading on the muzzle that I didn’t see until I cleaned the gun. My accuracy was best with my early shots. After about 2600fps, I was off the (8-1/2 x 11) paper most of the time. My early shots grouped about 2”. I don’t know if the problem was the high speed or the lead building up on the muzzle crown. Also, Due to a chip out of the rack on my dial calipers, I was working off a bad number when I decided what size to make this batch of boolits. I ran them at .2285”. Now that I have taken a better reading of my lead slug, I see that they should have been .225”. I’ll correct that for the next batch. Does anybody have any advice on other things I might try to get my group size down?

DLCTEX
03-10-2008, 12:44 AM
I find my best accuracy is at 2100 fps, however I'm using a 44 gr. Lyman boolit over 7.5 gr.
SR7625. I have been sizing at .224 but I'm going to try .225 next batch and see what that gets me. I'm water quenching WW, I haven't recovered any but 20 oz. water bottles explode impressively. DALE

Buckshot
03-10-2008, 02:08 AM
...............Keep your velocity in the 2200 to 2400 range. Weigh your boolits into 0.2gr batches, weight your powder charges and scale your brass into batches of 1/2 gr lots.

http://www.fototime.com/9301FAA8AEDC420/standard.jpg

Also, try some H4198. Lyman 55gr 225646 at 50 yards. These were 3 shot groups except the last, which was only 2. What is interesting too, is that the point of impact over the velocity range was almost the same. Of the 20 rounds fired, if combined into one group, they would be just barely over 1".

I have a early Savage M112 single shot, 26" bull bbl in 223 also with a 12" twist and 24x scope. What is REALLY fun is to back down to 22RF velocities. Accuracy can be outstanding and it's a real gas to see the boolit pop up into view, and then watch it's ballistic arc to the target where a little hole goes "Bing!" into existance. Hey, I'm easy to entertain what can I say?

.................Buckshot

JIMinPHX
03-10-2008, 08:24 PM
Thanks to both you gents for responding. I’m going to get my sizing in line first & see what effect that has. After that, I may try the powders that you are using. First, I want to see if I can get good performance out of a powder that I already have. I water dropped some of the boolits that I made. I may try them soon too if I don’t get what I want from the soft ones. I had hoped to stay with the soft ones though. I was looking to use these things as coyote poison & I think that the expansion will help.

Buckshot, that is some mighty fine shootin.

beagle
03-10-2008, 10:14 PM
In my experiments with WW alloy, after 2400 FPS almost to the foot, accuracy seems to go south.

Try mixing some babbitt in with your WW alloy and you can up the velocity. I've gone to 2600 FPS with it in the .223 and decent accuracy and no leading./beagle

1Shirt
03-11-2008, 02:09 PM
In my less than humble opinion, if Beagle and or Buckshot recommends something in referance to 22 cast, make book on it. Also suggest you read some of Beagle's writting on the subject of shooting 22's. His 3 part article on 223 will provide you with a world of knowledge. Good Luck!
1Shirt!:coffee:

JIMinPHX
03-11-2008, 10:32 PM
Can you maybe give me a link to that 3-part series? I did a search for posts by beagle that contained .223 & about 20 threads came up, but none looked like a 3-part series.

Buckshot
03-12-2008, 01:09 AM
Can you maybe give me a link to that 3-part series? I did a search for posts by beagle that contained .223 & about 20 threads came up, but none looked like a 3-part series.

..............On Castpics.

...........Buckshot

JIMinPHX
03-12-2008, 01:31 AM
Wow, now I've got a lot of reading to do. You guys may not see me back here again for a while.

Thanks,
Jim

Ben
03-12-2008, 06:25 AM
Here is the link, good reading on cast in the .223 Rem, Parts I, II, & III written by Beagle.

http://www.castpics.net/

Boomer Mikey
03-12-2008, 12:56 PM
Thanks for the Hornet and 223 articles Beagle - saved me a lot of work - I have the same 22 hornet rifle and the rest of the Ruger target series rifles in my collection, they're outstanding.

Boomer :Fire:

JIMinPHX
03-12-2008, 07:41 PM
Wow Beagle, you did a lot of well-documented research there. You probably saved me months of frustration. I thank you for that. The only thing you wrote there that did not make sense to me intuitively was the part about the HPs flying better because the center of mass was further back. I always thought that things like arrows & badminton birdies flew well because the weight was up front & the center of drag was in the back. For that reason, I would have expected the HP to fly worse. But there I go spouting off theory as I understand it in the face of actual real world test results. If the HPs worked better for you, then I will certainly try them & perhaps I’ll learn something in the process. I may rig up a different method of putting the hole in the front of those little buggers though. A casting pin at that size just looks too problematic to me. I’ll see if I can come up with some sort of drilling fixture or something. I’ll post my results if I end up with something that I like. I thank you again sir for sharing your good work with the rest of us.

JIMinPHX
04-20-2008, 08:03 PM
Well, I’ve managed to try out a few of these things now & I have a few things to report. First, the good news, I have had no leading at all with any velocity that I have tried & I have gone up over 3,000fps. Now the bad news, My accuracy, although improved, is still not as good as I would like it to be. I have found some problems that I have managed to eliminate, but I’m still not in the promised land yet.

I brought my velocity down to around 2,000fps, which got my groups down to the size of a baseball, from being off the paper. That was a good start. I tried hollow pointing a few of my boolits, which has had no noticeable effect on my group sizes yet, but that may be because the groups are still so big that the difference the HP would make is still too small to show up. More on my HP trials here -
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=324919&posted=1#post324919

I now suspect that my powder may be part of my problem. I am using some second hand 2400 that is older than dirt. Although my velocity variations are not off by more than 100fps & the powder looks & smells OK, the powder may be getting a little erratic from old age & unknown storage conditions. I just shot some j-word handloads that I made up for another rifle about 5-years ago & they printed a golf ball size group right next to a cast group that was a little bigger than a baseball. The J’s were loaded over some RE-15 that I had bought new. Since the brass, primers & dies used were the same, that knocks at least a few variables off the list of possible problems.

I did find one thing that was probably the source of the occasional wild shot that I was experiencing. A few of my gas checks had the corners shaved off them by a sizing die that had a bit of a sharp edge on it. I noticed this when I seated the gas checks & sized with no lube on the hollow points before drilling out the cavities. I did this because I figured that after the point was drilled, I didn’t want to put too much pressure on the nose of the boolit with the top punch. Since there was no Moly Lube to block my view, I was able to see the shaved corners of the gas checks. I’ve since put a better lead radius on the sizing die, so its not an issue any more.

I’ll post more as things unfold.

Buckshot
04-20-2008, 11:37 PM
..............Are you scaling your boolits? Did you weigh cases into batches yet?

..............Buckshot

JIMinPHX
04-20-2008, 11:44 PM
The cases are from the same lot that is shooting well with the J-word slugs. I did not weigh them. The cast boolits all weigh the same within 0.1gr of each other. Even the hollow points were all that consistent in weight.

beagle
04-21-2008, 08:53 AM
Try the nose first sizing route. That usually eliminates any GC deformation problems and also insures that the bullets are straight. I once nose first lubed some 62 grain NEIs and they looked like small, crooked wads of chewing gum. After that, I was a beleiver in nose first sizing.

Thanks for the comments on the articles. I just bought a new chrony and have two of the uprights in place for my shooting shed here on the farm. So, by this fall, I should have some new stuff written./beagle

JIMinPHX
04-21-2008, 10:16 AM
By nose first sizing, I assume that you mean like the Lee push through sizers. What I have been doing so far with the hollow points, is to crimp the GC on in a lubrisizer using a .228 die with no lube. Then I drill out the cavities. then I run them through the same .228 die to squirt in the lube. This requires almost no force to get them back in the die that they already went through earlier. I then sized them down to .225 with a Lee push through. I’ve been doing it this way because I want to use the Lyman Moly lube & I don’t have a lubrisizer die in .225”. The Boolits appear to be straight & not crushed, but I'll inspect them more closely with a machinist's square.

JIMinPHX
04-21-2008, 10:18 AM
My boolit bases have some minor sprue marks in them. Perhaps I should file them dead flat before crimping on the GC. I have noticed that the GC deforms to the shape of the minor defect when it is fired.

JIMinPHX
04-29-2008, 12:53 PM
Well I tried a few more things. I tried hand selecting the boolits with the best looking bases. They shot about the same. I tried Unique & RE-15 in addition to 2400. Groups were still similar. I haven’t tried weighing out my brass yet, but that will be next now that I have some fired brass to play with again. I feel like I’m still missing something big here. J-word bullets shoot good out of this gun & the lands look good ‘n deep, so it should be able to shoot lead. My best group to date with lead in this rifle is still not much better than 3” @ 50 yards. I’ve done that with a handgun before. I’ve got to be missing something big.

leftiye
04-29-2008, 12:58 PM
Still using the 13 BHN boolits? (50/50 WW/Pure?) Maybe try heat treating them (450 for 1 hour, then dump in bucket of cold water) I use the same alloy, and it's pretty soft for these velocities unless heat treated.

Larry Gibson
04-29-2008, 01:36 PM
JIMinPHX

I started shooting 225415s in a M700V back in '74 or '75. The M700V has a 12" tist also. My interest in using 225415 was to duplicate a .22 Hornet and i figured some expansion wold be great for shooting ground squirrels and rock chucks. I pretty much had your experience with softer alloys. I could get very good accuracy of 1-1.5" at 100 yards in the 1800-2000 fps range but above that velocity accuracy was pretty bad for shooting the little ground squirrels. I then went to WQ'd WWs (old alloyed ones) and things improved with decent accuracy (still not what I wanted) in the 2200 fps range. I shot a few squirrels at about 100-150 yards (missed a few at 100+ yards as the squirrels were still smaller than the cone of fire) with them and terminal performance was very good. I figured that perhaps expansion was not necessary for use on the little critters.

I thus cast some of straight linotype. The lino 225415s were dropping from the mould at .227-.228". I had been sizing .224 prviously. I used the .224 H die in the 450 to just crimp on the GC and then pan lubed the as cast bullets. I cut the head off a fired 22-250 case (had signs of incipient head seperation so it was not a loss) to make a lube cutter. With H4895 those bullets shoot 1-1.5" at 100 yards right at 2350 fps which is 141,000 RPM. Any higher than that and accuracy again gets worse. I killed a lot of squirrels with that load out to 200 yards.

At one time the M788 was made in .222 with a 14" twist 24" barrel. I got several of them and rechambered them to .223 for several friends. I also got one and kept it in .222. Regretably I let a friend talk me out of it. With the same 225415 cast of lino and shot as cast I could get 2550 fps or so with the same 1-1.5" accuracy at 100 yards. RPM was then 131,200. That sure enough equaled the 22 Hornet and was a great squirrel shooter.

I have recently got a .228 sizer and will do some more work with the .223. My point being is that getting accuracy over 2300 fps with your 12" twist barrel and that 225415 bullet will be difficult. You don't mention what you're sizing the bullets at but I'd suggest sizing as cast and using a harder alloy to begin with.

Larry Gibson

beagle
04-29-2008, 04:27 PM
Don't think it's necessary to file them flat although I've read of that./beagle


My boolit bases have some minor sprue marks in them. Perhaps I should file them dead flat before crimping on the GC. I have noticed that the GC deforms to the shape of the minor defect when it is fired.

beagle
04-29-2008, 04:35 PM
Well, the Lee sizers work pretty well if you have the correct diameter.

Look at the article entitled "Nose First Sizing". Several years ago, Crazy Mark and myself worked on a method to adapt Lyman and RCBS sizers to a single stage press to allow nose first sizing. We ended up opening some dies to .700" to accept the Lyman and RCBC sizers. Then, Mark modified a Lee shellholder to take screw in shanks. We made these in .22, .25, .30, .35, and .44. These sizes seem to do all of our need. Basically, it allows you to insert a sizer die in the sleeve and setscrew it down. Then, you can nose first size with any sizing die you have on hand. Works really good. Not better than the Lees but if you have sizing dies, you might as well use them as buying custom Lee sizers, it gets pricey./beagle


By nose first sizing, I assume that you mean like the Lee push through sizers. What I have been doing so far with the hollow points, is to crimp the GC on in a lubrisizer using a .228 die with no lube. Then I drill out the cavities. then I run them through the same .228 die to squirt in the lube. This requires almost no force to get them back in the die that they already went through earlier. I then sized them down to .225 with a Lee push through. I’ve been doing it this way because I want to use the Lyman Moly lube & I don’t have a lubrisizer die in .225”. The Boolits appear to be straight & not crushed, but I'll inspect them more closely with a machinist's square.

Ricochet
04-29-2008, 11:16 PM
The only thing you wrote there that did not make sense to me intuitively was the part about the HPs flying better because the center of mass was further back. I always thought that things like arrows & badminton birdies flew well because the weight was up front & the center of drag was in the back. For that reason, I would have expected the HP to fly worse. That's had me puzzled, too. But people have several times posted how hollowpointing boolits made them shoot better. And there's got to be a reason why rifle match bullets have generally been hollowpointed with a rather large empty cavity in the nose for a long time.

The reason's got to be tied in with gyroscopic force and how it converts the result of a yawing force as though it were acting 90° away on the following side as it rotates. I've thought about it a little, but I'm not good enough to explain why that would cause a bullet to better resist forces trying to overturn it with the center of mass farther behind the center of pressure. Maybe someone on here can explain it?

rhead
04-29-2008, 11:49 PM
Hollow pointing will move the mass out to the circumfrance of a spinning bullet which will give an increase in stability. Also in a cast bullet as the lead cools from the outside in an area of lower density will form near the center of the bullet (Look at an ice cube) . If the area is off center it will create an instability in flight. In some cases hollow pointing will remove the lower density area.

JIMinPHX
04-30-2008, 02:16 AM
I started with my standard alloy at 13bnh. It’s basically a pound of birdshot to 6” of 95/5 solder. I’ve had good luck with it in all my pistols. I then tried the same boolits that were water dropped & came out about 23bnh. I saw little difference. I tried some boolits that were sized in a .228 die & also some that were sized at .225. The raw boolits were about .2275-.228.

So far my best accuracy was with a 23bnh HP over 10 grains of 2400 at a little over 2000 fps. The group was my best, but it was only a little better than most of my others. It looks like the water dropping may help a little & the HP may help a little. The good group was still about 3” at 50 yards, so I think that I’m still missing the big problem here, whatever it is. Hand selecting boolits with pristine bases did not really seem to help, which surprised me. My boolit weight variation is about 0.1gr across just about the whole batch of a few hundred pieces that I cast. I’m going to weigh out a few that are exactly the same weight as closely as I can measure on a beam scale & see if that makes a difference. I am also going to start weighing my brass to see if that makes a difference. I may also try a different lube. So far I have liked sticking with Lyman Moly lube because it got me up over 3000 fps with no leading. Something else may give me better accuracy though. Maybe the moly stuff partially comes off when fired & leaves the boolit unbalanced or something. I may also try a richer alloy. I do have a little lino kicking around. I may cast up a little of that to see what difference it makes. It sure would be a shame to have to scrap the hundreds of boolits that I already cast though.

Larry, if I could hold an inch at 2300fps like you did, I would call this project a success. I was originally hoping for 2400-2600 with inch groups, but at this point I would be very happy to get 2300 & call it good. My terminal performance is plenty good down to 2000.

Larry & Beagle, what lube were you guys using? You were both getting the good results that I’m looking for. There has to be something that you were doing that I am not. It might be something as simple as the choice of lube.

JIMinPHX
04-30-2008, 02:27 AM
rifle match bullets have generally been hollowpointed with a rather large empty cavity in the nose for a long time.



I did not know that.

Larry Gibson
04-30-2008, 02:56 AM
JIMinPHX

I've been using Javelina and Hornady GCs. One question as to expected accuracy; the m700V I have is a .5 - .7 moa rifle with 55 gr SXs over H335 in prepped and FF'd cases. It will would shoot in the .2s and .3s with the old Speer Gold 52 gr HPs. What I'm saying here is I can get consistant 1 moa groups with cast but at only 1800-1900 fps. What kind of accuracy with real quality jacketed bullets are you getting? Equaling jacketed bullet accuracy with cast at high velocity can be a very difficult quest.

Larry Gibson

JIMinPHX
04-30-2008, 03:03 PM
What kind of accuracy with real quality jacketed bullets are you getting?

3/8" group @ 100 yards with 50-grain SPSX over RE-15 @ 2900fps. Nearly as good with 40-grain V-max red tip & 40-grain V-max Moly.

Rustyleee
04-30-2008, 03:50 PM
Larry,
Remember to only change one thing at a time or you'll drive yourself nuts.

JIMinPHX
04-30-2008, 06:08 PM
Larry,
Remember to only change one thing at a time or you'll drive yourself nuts.

Troubleshooting is a large portion of what I do for a living. One thing at a time is one of my mantras. I’ve got that one down.

JIMinPHX
06-23-2008, 11:56 PM
I think that I stumbled onto what one of my big problems was. I stretched my C.O.A.L. out to 2.145 & my group size got cut in half.

I had been loading the boolits so that the upper lube groove was just covered by the case neck. This time I left the top lube groove sticking out of the case & just covered the lower lube groove. Naturally, the top groove had no lube in it. I shot two groups of 5 shots each. One was from 25 yards, the other was from 50. Even the 50-yard group had 4 out of 5 in less than a 2” group. The 5th shot was a flinch that I knew about as soon as I pulled the trigger. I was still just using the same 10 grain charge of some really old 2400 that I’ve been using for a while now, so I think that this is a pretty good indication that this one change was a big factor. I was really surprised that I did this well with 13BNH slugs at just under 2,000fps. Next, I’m going to try that seating depth with some HPs & then start to dial in my powder charge. These things are starting to show promise again.

Bass Ackward
06-24-2008, 06:50 AM
Yes. You must establish alignment and the easiest way is to seat out and touch the lands.

Lube and hardness interact. Your rifle is telling you that either your bullet is too soft or your lube is not performing properly for some reason. The logical choice is to increase hardness or go to a slower powder to achieve the same velocity at a lower pressure.

When you start to open up, you are already leading, your check, with increased pressure behind it, is scraping it all out. When you see it at the muzzle, your check filled up beyond it's capacity to handle it and it had to size down or deform to allow the gas check to get passed it.

My secret to rapid high velocity load success is to look in a reloading manual for the same weight jacketed bullet. I then look for the powder that produces the highest velocity with that weight and working down. NEVER above. This follows the basic premise with cast to start the bullet off as gently as possible, so I start my cast load search by selecting the next SLOWER powder from that point down. The heavier the bullet is for the caliber or the larger the bore diameter, the farther down this scale, below the peak point, you will need to go if you can't increase case capacity. But you will need the barrel length to burn it. That's the only disadvantage to this technique.

In my manuals, Varget, 748, RL15 are the peak powders for this scenariio. So I would start with 4350 and go down.

But since I know that it's 4831 with that soft mix already, I just jump down there. Can't win fair in life, cheat!

felix
06-24-2008, 09:43 AM
The quality of the alignment necessary for the entire system goes way up as the bore diameter decreases. The affect of only one of the lands can exhibit a serious problem in the 22's accuracy at the target, for example. The percentage of land engagement to the entire circumference is way, way higher for a 22 when compared to a 45. Shoot these Hornets using condoms with the hottest loads possible for as long as necessary to make the accuracy grade desired with boolits. For the fastest break-in, the barrel should be as hot to the touch as you can stand during a sitting. However, that might never happen with a heavy barreled Hornet in cool, nice shooting weather. ... felix

jhalcott
06-24-2008, 12:04 PM
I may sound like a fool with this question,but.. It seems you have shot this gun with both JACKETED and cast bullets. The smaller bore must be super clean of any copper fouling to get the best results from cast bullets. What are your cleaning procedures when going from Jacketed back to cast loads? I am waiting for a .22 caliber mold now and this thread REALLY has my attention.

JIMinPHX
06-24-2008, 12:38 PM
What are your cleaning procedures when going from Jacketed back to cast loads?

I clean like the dickens. My normal procedure is plain old Hoppie's 9, cotton patches & a brush. As long as I see ANY blue or green on a patch, I'm not done yet. I let the bore sit overnight with Hoppie's in it to do my final blue/green check.

In extreme cases of copper fouling (very rare for me unless I just bought a used gun) I use the battery, steel rod & electrolyte trick, followed by 1 round of normal cleaning, followed by vigorous scrubbing with lead-away cloth, followed by normal cleaning. I use a small ammeter & a potentiometer with the battery connection. I start it out at about 10ma. When I see a 20% change in the current draw, I STOP THE PROCESS QUICKLY. It usually takes about an hour or so for a really bad barrel. The lead-away cloth is slightly abrasive & smoothes out the fine imperfections in surface finish that the electrolyte leaves behind. THIS METHOD IS NOT FOR REGULAR USE.

For extreme leading, I will use the lead-away cloth. If I find myself needing that option, then I am also looking for a way to prevent that leading from happening again. Regular use of lead-away will wear out a barrel.

I also have Wipe Out & a few of the commercial copper solvents that I've tried a few times. The Wipe Out is a quick & easy way to get a lot done on a bad barrel, but I don't use it often. The copper solvents don't seem to work as well as the battery trick.

I've cleaned this gun at least 10 times since it last saw jackets. I'm pretty sure that there is no copper residue left.

JIMinPHX
06-24-2008, 12:50 PM
This barrel has a pretty long throat. Even at my now-extended C.O.A.L. I am still not touching lands with the nose of my boolit due to the boolit’s rather long taper on the nose. I really can’t stick it out any further without exposing my last remaining lube groove. One of the two grooves stuffed with lube seemed to be enough, but I don’t think that I would get away with only lubing in the small crevice above the gas check. I still have high hopes of improving my results with hollow points at the longer C.O.A.L. & some powder charge tuning. A harder lube that would be less likely to distort or partially separate from the boolit after leaving the muzzle may also help.

My highest hopes are actually pinned on the Bator boolit when that mould finally gets here. It was ordered in February & unfortunately it is still not here yet. With the short ogive on the Bator, I have a better chance of reaching the lands. If it doesn’t reach, I may stick that mould in the lathe & push the nose of one cavity out far enough so that it will.

Larry Gibson
06-24-2008, 01:10 PM
Larry,
Remember to only change one thing at a time or you'll drive yourself nuts.

Not sure why this is directed to me? I have only been changing one thing at a time in load development for 40+ years. That is how you control the variables and therefore can make intelligent decissons based on actual results.

Larry Gibson

Larry Gibson
06-24-2008, 01:21 PM
JIMinPHX

Alignment is critical with the smaller cast bullet. The bullet must fit the throat with the least minimal clearance. A .001" clearence between the diameter of a .224 cast bullet and the throat is of greater significance than that same .001" clearence to a .308 - .458 cal bullets. Misalignment and obturation are much more percentagewise with the smaller bullet. This is why it can be very difficult with the smaller bullets to achieve accuracy at higher velocity/RPM.

Let me add that with the M70V the throat was long enough that the 225415s were seated out with the base of the GC at the base of the case neck. The front lube groove was exposed but I had lube in it anyway. The driving band was just touching the lands. It will be interesting to see if that bullet shot as cast will improve accuracy.

Larry Gibson

carpetman
06-24-2008, 02:11 PM
Jiminphx---My .223 has shot a one holer with jacketed bullets,but just keeping them on paper with cast is a feat. I've tried several powders and loads--same results. Same cast bullets in .222 or 22-250 do great. In fact in those two it is harder to find something that doesnt work than something that does.

leftiye
06-24-2008, 02:33 PM
If you can't reach the lands with the boolit seating, then be SURE to fill the freebore with a tightly fitted boolit. Lots of rifles shoot well with lots of freebore (though it is not optimal). In this situation it's very nice to not have a tapered freebore (maybe do a chamber cast)! Conversely, if it were me I'd fill both lube grooves (do some testing to see if that's too much lube), and I'd seat out to the rifling if that's at all possible (given how little of the boolit would then be in the case). I'd find a way to keep the lube clean and go with lube showing.

Larry Gibson
06-24-2008, 03:28 PM
Jiminphx---My .223 has shot a one holer with jacketed bullets,but just keeping them on paper with cast is a feat. I've tried several powders and loads--same results. Same cast bullets in .222 or 22-250 do great. In fact in those two it is harder to find something that doesnt work than something that does.

Carpetman

You might want to take note of the twist difference between your .223 barrel and your .222 and 22-250 barrels.

Larry Gibson

JIMinPHX
06-24-2008, 06:12 PM
I'd seat out to the rifling if that's at all possible (given how little of the boolit would then be in the case). I'd find a way to keep the lube clean and go with lube showing.

That would be interesting for academic purposes, but not so good for real world use. I was planning on using these for hunting small game. Exposed lube would not work so well for the spare cartridges that I carry on the side of my stock in boolit loops.

JIMinPHX
06-24-2008, 06:14 PM
Carpetman

You might want to take note of the twist difference between your .223 barrel and your .222 and 22-250 barrels.

Larry Gibson


Larry,
In my case, with a 1:12 twist .223, do you see much difference from the other calibers?

felix
06-24-2008, 07:26 PM
Jim, I shoot in dust storms around here. Actually not, but they seem like it coming across those plowed fields when the humidity is low enough to go shoot at the river. Before loading the rounds, just wipe the boolits off with your bare hands, not around the exposed boolits, but along them so you won't take the lube out of the grooves. I do it all the time with the BR gun, that is, shoot strongly exposed boolits. ... felix

compass will
06-24-2008, 07:53 PM
[QUOTE=leftiye;356607 and I'd seat out to the rifling if that's at all possible (given how little of the boolit would then be in the case). I'd find a way to keep the lube clean and go with lube showing.[/QUOTE]

How about paper patch the boolit using just a little teflon tape to hold the lube on?

Larry Gibson
06-24-2008, 08:28 PM
Larry,
In my case, with a 1:12 twist .223, do you see much difference from the other calibers?

With the M788s with 14" twists (.222s rechambered to .223)I was pushing 2500+ with the same 1 - 1 1/2" accuracy with 225438. One particular M788 that I left in .222 would shoot 1" quite consistently at 2300 fps with 225415 and at 2500+ with 225462. My M700 22-250 would do pretty much the same. I'm going to do more work with the 22-250 and 225415 as soon as I finish a couple other tests.

Some years back a guy wrote and told me to try graphite mould release (Midways) on the bullet that was unlubed out side the neck. He said he sprayed it on a Q-tip then applied to the bullet after loading. Claimed no leading and it solved the lube collecting dirt outside the neck problem. I've been going to try it but haven't gotten to it yet. Might be worth trying.

Larry Gibson

Rustyleee
06-25-2008, 07:56 AM
Sorry Larry, I didn't mean for you to take it personal. It just came to mind, about the changes. I knew a guy once that seemed like he was always starting over.

I got some grease not long ago that I want to try with some beeswax. I drive a truck and I got this stuff in a truck stop. It's meant to be 5th wheel grease. It already has graphite mixed in it. As soon as my Bator mould gets here I think I'll give it a try.

JIMinPHX
06-26-2008, 01:39 AM
It looks like I just got lucky. I only had to go another .010” past where I was to get the boolit to hit the lands. I can still manage to just cover 1 lube groove with the case neck while still pushing the boolit into contact. I had no idea that I was so close. I just knew that I had chambered a round at the last C.O.A.L. & not gotten marks on the nose. Maybe I will end up liking this boolit.

Bass Ackward
06-26-2008, 07:13 AM
I had no idea that I was so close. I just knew that I had chambered a round at the last C.O.A.L. & not gotten marks on the nose. Maybe I will end up liking this boolit.


Good thing you had that chamber cast or slug to refer to or this might have escaped you. That's why I always advocate them. :grin:

Now if you just get a can of RPM proof 4831 and a pack of pistol primers, you are in business.

4831 has magical properties in the 223. Sometimes, when you start out loading, a squad of really cute cheerleaders will appear. They will start cheering: Jim take it up, take it up, way, way up! They're kind of distracting, but when you finally shoot good groups, they come all around you and make you feel good. If this doesn't happen for you though, the target has a similar effect.

JIMinPHX
06-26-2008, 01:27 PM
Sometimes, when you start out loading, a squad of really cute cheerleaders will appear. They will start cheering: Jim take it up, take it up, way, way up! They're kind of distracting

Geeze, It’s like you were there or something. That’s exactly what happened! I was thinking that maybe that’s why my groups opened up as far as they did, because I was distracted by all the jiggling & gyrations! Maybe I’ll get better groups if I try shooting the targets in the winter, when people around here wear more clothes. :mrgreen:

DLCTEX
06-26-2008, 03:24 PM
I gotta start shooting where you guys do, or drinking or smoking what you do! Did they look like Carpetman's avitar? DALE

Rustyleee
06-28-2008, 12:46 PM
To everyone that ordered a Lee Bator mould... they're here.


I just unpacked mine.

JIMinPHX
06-30-2008, 01:56 PM
I did a little more testing this morning with the longer C.O.A.L. 2” groups at 50 yards are the rule now rather than the exception. The 23BNH HPs still gave me a slightly better group than the other boolits that I tried, but it was a slim difference. 13 or 23 BNH seemed to fly about the same. .225” diameter & .2285” diameter seemed to fly about the same. I was still using 10 grains of 2400 for about 2,000 fps. Things look good enough now that it may be time to stick a scope on this thing & work off a proper bench rest rather than sitting on the tailgate of my truck so that I can dial things in with a bit more precision.

Thanks for all the help guys. I’m finally starting to see something that I can think about calling success.