How much time between casting, and sizing?

[varminter66]

Hello Gentlemen. I am brand spanking new to the forum, and a little less new to bullet casting. I am learning like crazy, casting, and developing loads for my .357 Magnum.

I am also out of work on Medical Leave for the next month, so I am studying anything I can find on casting till the Dr clears me for lifting more than 5 lbs. That all said....

I noticed that bullet hardness can change for weeks after a bullet has been cast. Since that is the case, does sizing and lubing need to wait till the bullets "settle", too?

I am using Lyman #2 Alloy from Rotometals for all my casting, at this time. Also, I am using the Lee bullet sizing dies, and have tried both the Lee Liquid Alox lube, and the NRA alox lube formula, with best grouping results coming from the Lee lube, so far. My bullets use gas checks, and are the Lee 158 gr FP.

Any insight into this would be greatly appreciated!

Mike

[JWFilips]

I think you should re-phraze question: how much time between casting & shooting:
For me 4 weeks minimum.....However you can and (for me) should size as soon as you can ( if you water quench)
Just what I do based on what I have experienced .......My 2 Cents

[dragon813gt]

The answer as usual is that it's up to you. Certain alloys will test the strength of your lubesizer if you wait to long to size. I now store them in bulk unlubed. I size and lube when they will be loaded in short order. It's always easier to size ASAP after casting. But it isn't a necessity w/ certain alloys.

[varminter66]

JW, I have been using air-cooled bullets so far, and resizing them the same day. Just last weekend, before surgery, I tried my hand at water quenching a few bullets, and have not sized them yet. I am wondering if there may be some shrinkage that would affect diameter consistency after sizing. Also, I was wondering if sizing them too soon would affect the hardness in unpredictable ways. It seems that, as soon as I think I am overthinking it, I read something that makes me think I am not thinking enough... LOL!!

[varminter66]

Dragon, Thank you for your response. I guess a good way to test it, would be to cast some extra bullets, size some ASAP, and leave the rest for a later time, then compare the groups after testing. The nice thing about casting, is if I don't like the results of one or the other, I can always melt them down, and start over!

[Tenbender]

Good thread. I have some of the same questions. Do boolits shrink after casting ? if so you don't want to size until time to use them. If they get harder will the sizer stand the pressure ? I'm new at this and I have researched the forum but there's to many answers to my questions. This is not rocket science but I know the seasoned caster's on here have been there and done that.:oops:

[JWFilips]

JW, I have been using air-cooled bullets so far, and resizing them the same day. Just last weekend, before surgery, I tried my hand at water quenching a few bullets, and have not sized them yet. I am wondering if there may be some shrinkage that would affect diameter consistency after sizing. Also, I was wondering if sizing them too soon would affect the hardness in unpredictable ways. It seems that, as soon as I think I am overthinking it, I read something that makes me think I am not thinking enough... LOL!!

If I water quench I like to resize as soon as possible because in the first 24 hours the quenched haven't reached full hardness ( much easier on your dies) Then a week later you're talking near double the hardness of your alloy ...on average

[TXGunNut]

I have a different approach; on the boolits that need hardening I size them with a push-thru Lee sizer and then heat-treat them in my oven. I feel that every second after the pour stops and before the boolit hits the water is crucial and I don't think my timing is consistent enough to give consistent results. Also I understand sizing softens lead so sizing after hardening may forfeit some of the hardness. After I HT I either lube and install GC's in my Lyman sizer (with die same size as the Lee) or install GC's in the Lee sizer and TL. I know this sounds rather tedious but it works for me when I want a boolit that will break big bones in a big hog.

[454PB]

Using Lyman #2 and air cooling, it really doesn't matter much how soon you size them. While they do harden a bit, it's not enough to notice. If you water quench, they should be sized ASAP. The ones you did weeks ago are going to be very hard to size, and the sizing process may resoften them if it reduces their diameter much.

[pworley1]

I try to size the same day I cast, I also try to load them within a few days. After that I can shoot when I get ready.

[varminter66]

Interesting... I was not aware that cast bullets could harden so substantially in the matter of a few weeks. I have been casting numerous small batches, usually 50 at a time, lubing, sizing, and putting gas checks on them, and then working up loads over the course of a couple weeks. According to all your input here, I am shooting bullets of different hardness's and diameters, depending on the elapsed time since I cast and sized the batch. I don't need another variable when doing load development. Now I am thinking I should cast a couple hundred bullets at a time, and allow them some weeks to harden, and then do my load development. I wonder why the Lyman Cast Bullet manual didn't warn readers of this? Thanks for your help!!

[WHITETAIL]

I also cast in large batches.
And store them for awhile.
Then I will make up a few test
loads.
When I find what I like I load the rest.:shock:

[JeffG]

I let mine age harden for several weeks then when I need to load some, I size and lube at that time. It's never been an issue for me. That said, I don't have a hardness tester and haven't done any tests to confirm or deny anything. It's just a process that has worked for me, no muss no fuss.

[ascast]

mike, I have cast and shot bullets in the same day and hit rams at 500 meters. It all depends on what you want to do and how far you want to go to get there.
I suggest you start simple, like wait until the bullet cool down before lubing and add more steps when you think it might help you.
my 2 cents

[GP100man]

In the end the hardness returns to the original of the parent alloy , composition & heat treating/ water droppin just alters the time/duration .

I did a test on the 358429 , I stored a few for 90 days loobed , then cast some & loobed/sized on the same day . NO difference loaded up to 1k fps ,but more pressure & the fresh wanted to strip a little lead.

The stored tested 1 bhn harder than the fresh 1s according to my Lee tester.

GP

[1Shirt]

I water drop every thing, and I size and lube the same day if possible, but not longer than 24 hours.
1Shirt

[varminter66]

Here is something you may find of interest... 135763

[bangerjim]

Certain alloys like #2 get harder over several weeks. Water-dropping hardness gain is a non-predictable factor. If you must shoot those ultra hard boolits, you will have to work out the timing vs hardness for yourself. I would recommend sizing right after casting/dropping.....unless you are using a swaging press for sizing!!!

Many of us are now powdercoating to forget about the water dropping and hardness worrys. PC protects the barrel extremely well from leading. Many on here are shooting PC'd/GC'd rifle rounds at full jacketed loads with excellent results. And PC allows you to make many more boolits, since you can stretch your sweetening alloys a looooooooooong way.....I cast 9-12 + PC for almost everything. 14 + PC for rifles.

I have found (for experimentation only) that some of my Sb rich alloys will gain 12-18 over several weeks with WD. One particular alloy is 20 air and 38 WD! Sizing needs to be done right after WD.

Good luck on your quest. Lost of good ideas on here.

banger-j

[varminter66]

Thanks Banger-j!. I have decided to stick with air-cooled bullets for now, size ASAP after casting, leaving lube and GC off till I am ready to use them. Powder coating looks interesting, and I may try it after acclimating myself to the basics of good, accurate casting in the pistol and rifles. In the mean time, I am simply having fun learning, even if I have to re-melt bullets and waste gas checks till I get it right!

I have begun to see some promising load development for the .357 Magnum in the short time I have casting, and there is no better feeling than shooting a nice, tight group with bullets and loads I have made.

It's funny.... over the years of reloading jacketed bullets, I have worked to reduce the number of variables. Then, I opened the Pandora's box of bullet casting, and new variables are all over the place!

[44man]

According to Bill Ferguson, water dropped should be sized within 1/2 hour from casting. Not hardly so do what you must but antimony alloys harden with age and also expand, then will soften over time.
I get away with sizing anytime since I do not make boolits smaller then cast. The only boolit I wonder about is my .476" that I lube soon. They will expand to .478" in time but still shoot great.
Yes an antimony alloy will get larger and is a benefit to fit in most guns. Size soon after casting and let them age.

[BenW]

I have been limited in my supply of hard lead, and so have been forced to experiment with softer alloys. You will be surprised how soft you can get your boolits and still work with great accuracy.

I have shot 10mm with 25-1 alloy without leading at 1200 fps. I had to bump up the alloy to 96-2-2 Pb-Sb-Sn. Not because of any leading, but because accuracy dropped off at higher loads.

I am a firm believer that you should try casting as soft as materials allow, and harden only to the point that leading disappears and accuracy remains at the load you need.

Going soft has several benefits.
1. You don't have to find super hard sources of lead.
2. More consistency since you don't have to water quench and have differing hardnesses and diameters.
3. A soft alloy will obturate better in bores that are not caster friendly (my 40 throat is 0.401, with largest groove diameter is 0.402. I size to 0.4015 with 8-10 bhn with no leading).
4. Terminal ballistics are better. Less likely to shatter on impact, and will expand slightly while still penetrating deeply.

I'm not saying there is never a case where you need 18 Bhn in a 9mm or 357 mag. Just that you should give softer alloys a chance. Increase hardness to fix problems as they arrise, dont just jump to a hard, finicky alloy.

-Ben

[JWFilips]

I have been limited in my supply of hard lead, and so have been forced to experiment with softer alloys. You will be surprised how soft you can get your boolits and still work with great accuracy.

I have shot 10mm with 25-1 alloy without leading at 1200 fps. I had to bump up the alloy to 96-2-2 Pb-Sb-Sn. Not because of any leading, but because accuracy dropped off at higher loads.

I am a firm believer that you should try casting as soft as materials allow, and harden only to the point that leading disappears and accuracy remains at the load you need.

Going soft has several benefits.
1. You don't have to find super hard sources of lead.
2. More consistency since you don't have to water quench and have differing hardnesses and diameters.
3. A soft alloy will obturate better in bores that are not caster friendly (my 40 throat is 0.401, with largest groove diameter is 0.402. I size to 0.4015 with 8-10 bhn with no leading).
4. Terminal ballistics are better. Less likely to shatter on impact, and will expand slightly while still penetrating deeply.

I'm not saying there is never a case where you need 18 Bhn in a 9mm or 357 mag. Just that you should give softer alloys a chance. Increase hardness to fix problems as they arrise, dont just jump to a hard, finicky alloy.

-Ben

I have to concur with pistol rounds: I also have switched to softer alloy. Even in my 40 S&W I'm not firing it hot and a BHN 11 alloy is really great & no leading under 900 fps My favorite alloy mix is 50% COWW + 50 % Pure PB to that I add an additional 2% tin for good fillout. I shoot this exclusivly in all my Pistols as well as my .30 + bore rifles. Only now since I have been shooting cast in my .223 & .243 rifles have I started water dropping that alloy which gives me a bhn around 22

A good rule of thumb is....... shooting slow: soft and fat shoots good with that! Shooting fast: "right size and hard will cut the card!"
(The above pertains to pistol vs rifle shooting)

[BenW]

Treat boolit hardness as something to work up, just like powder charges. In pistols (haven't delved into rifle yet), work up to your max charge with a soft alloy.

My load process:
1. Work up a load from min to max with a soft alloy.
2. Note when accuracy drops off or when leading starts during work up.
3. Harden alloy. If accuracy dropped off early, you need a much harder alloy (say, 4-5 bhn). If near the max, just a little.
4. Work up load again with harder boolits. If accuracy doesn't drop off during work-up, you've got a hard enough alloy and can now concentrate on changing powder charges for accuracy.
5. Now that you've found the needed bhn, you can choose to get there by alloy (as before) or heat treating / water dropping.

I have yet to need to water drop to get to the hardness I need. Going straight to water dropping means skipping a lot of possibly fertile ground between dead soft and 20bhn. I won't say no 9mm needs 20bhn, but I know that many don't need it.

I bet rifles (non-pistol caliber) are similar, but you pretty much can't get hard enough with alloy alone, and so are tricker to work up.

The good thing about pistols is they are far more forgiving (casting wise) than you think.

[dragon813gt]

I just sized and lubed some 96/3/1 bullets that I cast back around Thanksgiving. No noticeable difference in required pressure to size them. They were air cooled due to cold temp at time of casting. Time to find out how well they stand up out of a Single 7 at right around 1400fps :)

[Doggonekid]

I cast in bulk. After casting a couple thousand rounds I will I PC my boolits. That whole process could take a couple of weeks. It can take me several more weeks to size them. I'm not saying that is the best way to do it. I am just working in the time frame I have with my life. I don't notice any excess pressure on my sizer. I think the RCBS lube sizer is strong and I never have had a problem with it. my boolits shoot accurately and I don't have a problem with leading.

[Yodogsandman]

I just figured out a problem I had last week and it was caused by sizing too soon. I was loading up some 6.5x55's using a 270 win seating die due to the boolit diameter size of .269". C.O.A.L.'s were all over the map from 2.730-2.795". I found that I had bumped up the noses during sizing. Probably because of the little extra push to make sure the gas checks were seated square. So, the noses were catching on the cup for the bullet head at different depths when seating.

I had heat treated the boolits at 450*F and quenched in ice cold water immediately after an hour of heating. Not wanting to wait and have to work harder to size them, I didn't wait much. Had a cup of coffee and sized, lubed and GC'd about an hour after HT'ing.

Never had that happen before! Must be due to the small diameter, long boolit. I was in a hurry. I would normally cast, size and then heat treat. Then a few days later run them through the sizer again after, just to lube and install gas checks.

[JWT]

I am going to cast some copper enriched boolits for my 375H-H and 416 rigby. Should these be sized asap or should they settle for some time before sizing?

[varminter66]

JWT, what is a "copper enriched boolit"?

Regarding the topic of allowing time between casting and sizing, I have been tinkering this past week, and have decided that, using my Lee Sizing Dies, it is best to size them after casting, and let them set... this also requires that I use some type of lube in order to get the GC to seat properly. I am fine with that, and it will be interesting to test different alloys and determine if boolit shrinkage will cause better/worse accuracy in my guns.

I mixed up about 11 lbs of the 10/1 lead/tin alloy yesterday, and will be doing side by side comparisons at 25 yds with the Lyman#2 alloy bullets of the same design. (.357 Magnum) Lyman # 2 should stay pretty close to the same diameter after aging, 10/1 is expected to shrink slightly over time.

One thing is good about all this, it keeps me out of trouble....

[JWT]

There are a couple of threads on enhancing the toughness of the boolit by adding copper.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?172475-High-Copper-Alloys-Lets-discuss-this-further

I shoot a few heavy guns (375H-H, 416 rigby, 458 WinMag) and have been planning on trying this technique out. This thread is what brought me to this site in the first place.

[varminter66]

JWT

Thank you for the link, and info!! This is great stuff to know.

In fact, I am wondering if I inadvertently added some copper to my Lyman #2 when I recycled some boolits that had crooked GCs. I do not have a hardness tester, as I am not too concerned about measured hardness of alloys.... I am ok with ball park figures at this point of the game... but now.... one more variable to consider.... This stuff sure is interesting!!