44 mag

[Blanket]

Bought a new Ruger Super Blackhawk last fall. Now that the snow, ice and all that is gone I have been ringing it out. Have shot about a 1000 rounds thru it and guess what? Elmer Keiths load of 22 gr of 2400 and a square groove hard cast 250 grain bullet sized at .430 is a clear winner. You'd think after my playing with 8 mags and more than 20 k of rounds I would learn

[shoot-n-lead]

Even a blind hog will find and acorn every now and then.

Enjoy it...great gun.

[telebasher]

" If it ain't broke.........."

[Blanket]

I hear ya, same thing with my first one in 1977 and all the others. Jacketed, other cast bullets, other powders, same results. I am one and done with the tinkering. Load up all the brass and call it good.

[Mal Paso]

Outstanding Load!

What's broke is the supply of 2400. 2 years since I found any. Thought I was done tinkering but now it's whatever I can find.

My only disagreement, Elmer thought his bullets should be .429, I think another thou or two just helps the gas seal.

[44man]

My favorite was the 429421 back in 56 with the same load.
Another was the 358156 HP in the .357 with 2400. That one bulged a chucks eyeballs!
However the GG stuff meant nothing, just the size and hardness was first.

[Shuz]

I used to shoot 22g of 2400 back in the 60's, 70's and 80's when my hands and wrists were younger! Now when I want to shoot 2400, I use 18g and the 429421 for 1125fps and good groups. That's enuf velocity to kill anything I'll ever shoot and much easier on the hands, wrists and gun.

[44man]

We get old my friend, shake like a rattler too. But memories will never go away.
Damned I am old! Where did the years go?

[SlippShodd]

I used to rattle my fillings with the 22 grain load in a SBH, but now I prefer the 18 grain load for fun, plinking, and training children, 20 grains for deer hunting and that's a plenty. The 7 1/2 inch Redhawk tames all of them nicely, but I don't enjoy getting shoved around as much as I used to.

mike

[44man]

it is strange with me loving larger like the .475 and .500 JRH because of deer hunting. Now any .44 load is like a bump in the night. Have to make sure the .44 went off. I used to think it was all you could take but now it is a toy. To reduce the .44 is not in my book. i am 77 years old and prefer to shoot the JRH over any gun. I would still shoot 22 gr of 2400 with the Keith. Elmer was tough and so am I. i will never wimp out.

[jeepyj]

Marked as a future reference.
jeepyj

[Mal Paso]

it is strange with me loving larger like the .475 and .500 JRH because of deer hunting. Now any .44 load is like a bump in the night. Have to make sure the .44 went off. I used to think it was all you could take but now it is a toy. To reduce the .44 is not in my book. i am 77 years old and prefer to shoot the JRH over any gun. I would still shoot 22 gr of 2400 with the Keith. Elmer was tough and so am I. i will never wimp out.

You've never been to Sensitivity Training have you? ;);););)

[44man]

NO, buy a .44 maq and look for 800 fps loads is so stupid and why did you buy the gun? More posts looking for light loads then anything for big bores. Sorry does not work. Would you ever see me look for a Unique load in a .500? Do not buy the gun if you are afraid. Red dot in a 30-30 that has no recoil with the hardest load ever! Pee in the cat box, momma will clean it.

[fredj338]

I agree with 44man. The only way to learn to deal with recoil is shoot guns that recoil. I love my 44mags, any flavor, any bbl length. I don't feed them max loads all the time anymore, just beats the poop out of the gun & shooter, but take a little off the top, both of us last a bit longer. I don't think any of my guns have seen a load much under 1000fps & that was in my 3".

[texaswoodworker]

NO, buy a .44 maq and look for 800 fps loads is so stupid and why did you buy the gun? More posts looking for light loads then anything for big bores. Sorry does not work. Would you ever see me look for a Unique load in a .500? Do not buy the gun if you are afraid. Red dot in a 30-30 that has no recoil with the hardest load ever! Pee in the cat box, momma will clean it.
I don't think its that people are afraid. I'm a recoil junky, and even I like to shoot light loads occasionally. Its easier to go through 100 light 44 mags loads than 100 full powered loads. The light loads are slightly cheaper too.

On top of that, if your shooting at paper, does that extra power really do anything?

There is nothing wrong with shooting light loads in a magnum.

[fixit]

with all this talk about recoil and the 44 I just have to brag on my baby girl. We went shooting today and she shot my 44 magnum with 310 lee casts at abt 1100 feet per out of my virginian dragon. It was wearing on her bythe end on
the second cylinder.but she took it all instride.she is 5 foot 4 and weighs 120 pounds. If she can handle it I suppose anybody should be able to

[ShooterAZ]

My "plinking" load of 18.5 2400 gets me to 1430 fps in my contender with the 429421. Pleasant to shoot and accurate. Not much it won't go right through and through.

[Blanket]

My use off a 44 mag is to shoot stuff with a heartbeat. That said in my opinion the best way to master the obnoxious things is to practice a lot with them and shoot them to their potential. If I want to plink around in the back yard it would be one of my last choices. My choice for that would be my Smiths in 38 and 44 spl or a few 45acp's. My post was simply about my trying to reinvent the wheel when Elmer got it right and I was not smart enough to except it. After about 50 years of shooting and loading I might be getting smarter Russ

[John Allen]

Oh, I wish I could find some 2400

[44man]

with all this talk about recoil and the 44 I just have to brag on my baby girl. We went shooting today and she shot my 44 magnum with 310 lee casts at abt 1100 feet per out of my virginian dragon. It was wearing on her bythe end on
the second cylinder.but she took it all instride.she is 5 foot 4 and weighs 120 pounds. If she can handle it I suppose anybody should be able to
I remember the day Carol shot my .44. I did have light loads for her but then stuck the 22 gr loads in and I asked her what she felt. She said some were louder then others.
I have had ladies shoot .500's here.
You better watch out, the girls can show what a wimp you are.

[Blanket]

Both of my daughters and my wife have shot my 4" M29 with that load and never cried foul.

[Blanket]

Oh, I wish I could find some 2400 Was lucky enough to have stashed the old gray metal kegs of 2400 and Unique years ago. Don't think I will run out in my lifetime. My dad stashed 4895 that was surplus in the 50's and I still have about 5 lbs left. He told me never to sleep at the switch, having gone thru the depression and serving in WW2 and ammo was in short supply when he got back. Who would have ever thought you could not buy all of the 22 ammo you wanted

[Doggonekid]

I also own a SW 500 mag, SW 460 mag, .475 Linebaugh, 45-70 gov in a handgun. I like to shoot them with heavy loads. Learning to control the recoil really helps when you drop your load down simple guns like .44 mag, and .41 mag. The big guns are fun to shoot they help teach you not to flinch. (My kids say just the opposite.) I am more accurate with my .44 mag than my big magnums but it's not because the gun cant do it. It is because I haven't mastered the big guns yet. I took a bunch of teenage girls out to shoot the big guns they all loved shooting them. 110 cheerleaders shooting the 500 mag. They shot till I ran out of boolits.

[44man]

It is so true that I start new shooters with recoil first. To work up from a .22 has not worked at all.
Their brain will say "LOOK OUT, STUPID, THAT SUCKER WILL KICK". I have had more kids get better after recoil first with training, then go smaller until even a .454 was nothing for them.
First you remove fear until they find a big caliber will not hurt them.
It is amazing to watch a kid take pop cans at 50 yards one after another with a .500, off hand and cans off hand at 100 with a .454.
I will never forget my friends son when I wanted him to shoot my JRH. BIG eyes and fear until I showed him it could be shot with one hand. He took to the gun like a duck to water and is a better shot with any gun now.
I am backwards but grew up with the .44 and the times I shot light loads can be counted on two fingers. I just loved the Ruger Flat Top with Elmer's loads. Unique in a .44 mag??? There is kitty litter in a pan somewhere. Now the .44 is a little sister. Smallest gun I own and if you ever see me looking for a light load for the .475 or larger, you can beat me upside my head. My new love is the BFR in .500 JRH, best ever .500 ever made, yeah the S&W is bigger but when hunting the JRH is all needed. Unique in it?? Go look for the litter pan.

[Doggonekid]

Good post 44man, I like your thinking. No litter pan around here!

[Blackwater]

44man, there is much in what you say. In teaching a number of women to shoot, I found your advice exactly as stated. Got them to wear ear muff since the noise is a MUCH bigger factor in fear than the actual recoil, and THEN, had them face the target, close their eyes, and fire a cylinder full into the ground at a 45 degree downward angle. To get them to do this, I had to tell them that they'd think I was crazy until they actually did this, but they'd understand after following my directions. When they did it, they were amazed, and I don't recall a one that didn't say something like, "You're right! It just jumps, but it's not bad at all!" Closing the eyes and wearing the muffs isolates their perception to the recoil ONLY, which is a great step forward in overcoming their prior perceptions and attitudes. Once that's overcome, the rest is easy - all just muscle memory and learning to move the trigger finger without squinching the whole hand on the trigger pull. I've never taught a woman (or man, for that matter) that wasn't nearly an instantaneously good shot. Shooting is the EASY part. It's overcoming fears that's the bugaboo. And it's amazing the attitude change you see in them when they learn the simple truths about shooting. It ain't rocket science, and it's really a LOT easier than most instructors make it out to be. A casual and good humored attitude in the instructor also seems to ease the path to the right attitude on the learner's part. After all, attitudes are contagious, and stern, overly serious instructors cause GREATER fear and uncertainty on the student's part. Then, once they overcome their initial fears, just make the shooting FUN, and they'll be challenging the instructor in very little time at all. Just ease them into shooting a little faster as they go, and the look on their faces is, as in the commercial, "priceless." Their confidence level and resistance to being intimidated increases immeasurably, too, which CAN be as important as the skills themselves, if they ever have to fire in anger. There's just no substitute for that. At all!

[44man]

One reason I like the bigger revolvers now is they seem easier to find extreme accuracy with. I suppose the hardest for me to wring out is the .357 but the old 27 I had was a tack driver with the 358156HP and 2400. I had the 8-3/8" ribbed barrel with the old Phantom scope. Tea cup accurate at 100 all day.
Since all of my revolvers are for deer I look for nothing but accuracy and most loads are near top end. The benefit is teaching with an accurate gun and I found nothing is more important or gives a new shooter more confidence then being able to hit at any range from a rest. Then to go off hand and still shoot as good as they can hold.
My old friend was up yesterday with his Ruger .41. He could not hold paper at 50 yards. I look at his loads and they are very poor but I can never explain anything to him. Some would not even chamber. I have oak that is less dense then his head. [smilie=l: I have had him bring his dies so I could show how to set them, how to seat and crimp but to no avail at all. Such a wonderful revolver that is useless.
Most here know of Dave, retired aircraft mechanic!!!!!. I replaced the brakes on his truck and jacket it up, told him to remove the wheels and he was trying to turn the lug nuts loose with the breaker bar against the hub. Same when he was putting the wheels back on, trying to tighten with the bar against the hub. My God, how can he load ammo???? When he shoots I develop a flinch!
Diplomacy only goes so far so you need to understand why I get grouchy.
He calls to come and shoot and I think "nuts", he is bringing more junk to shoot!
He blew up his .41 once because he was loading one at a time. His son asked him something and he forgot the powder, shot the boolit into the bore and the next blew the gun. Ruger sold him a new one at cost. If they knew him they would not sell him a gun! Took me a while to make him use a block and look into every case. NO, I do not trust one load at a time. Some do it but do you want to hear a GROUCH?

[Blackwater]

:| Yep. Been there and done that, too. I have a young lion type that calls me frequently and asks me questions, and when I answer, he'll either say, "But that's not what I want to do," or even worse, "You're crazy! That can't be right!" He's got real potential, but he's so into doing things the EASY way that he's constantly fiddle-fumbling around and wasting MUCH time. HIS "easy way" not only takes longer, it often doesn't work at all. He got an AR-10 and wanted to know why his reloads wouldn't feed. I asked if he'd lubed the inside of the case necks, and he said no. I told him to try that, because failure to lube them CAN and often WILL result in the shoulder being stretched out so that the rounds won't chamber. He said he couldn't see how that could make a difference, and argued against it, so I told him to go ahead and keep doing the same thing, and he'd keep getting the same results. He grudgingly tried it, mostly to prove me wrong, I'm sure, and .... lo and behold, every round functioned. He DID at least have the humility to admit it. How old is your friend? There's no limit on age in this, but I've definitely noticed that it seems to be much more prevalent among the "young lions" these days. Some really good shooters among that group, and my grandsons are taking their place in that group, but it sure is disheartening to try to teach someone who doesn't really want to learn as much as they want to find the "easy way out." They'll spend double the time and trouble finding an "easy" way as they will doing it the right way. Amazes me, but then, us old farts have to have SOMETHING to get crotchety about, don't we? Sadly, it's all to easy to find nowadays. :sad:

[lar45]

Well, I'm sorry if I irritate you so much;) You have always given me good advise, so I'll listen and think about it some.
Do you guys remember about the (12yo?) kid that died shooting a 454. I belive it was about 5 years ago in TX. It hit the national news. Anyway a bunch of guys were out Phesant hunting and stopped for lunch, so one guy pulls out his 454 and has the kid shoot it. The recoiling gun smacked the kid in the head and he died from a brain bleed or something.
This has always made me nervous about putting something large into anyones hands that I didn't think could handle it.
But on the other hand, my oldest son Steven(13 or 14yo at the time) had a terrible flinch while shooting his 30-06. His Grandpa started him out shooting his HOT loads that stuck the bolt closed in his Rem 721.
One day at the range I put him in the drivers seat of the 470NE
http://www.lsstuff.com/howdah/pics/470ne/470gun01.jpg
(400gn cast @ 2150fps)(I was shooting the 500gn cast @ 2150fps) and he had such a great time watching stacks of old phone books explode that he stopped thinking about the recoil. He does not have a flinch anymore and has killed a pile of Elk with that old 06.
I thought the RedDot 30-30 loads were a good idea to get the neighbor kid shooting his own reloads, and then we could turn the velocity up later to get him ready for hunting season.

[44man]

We grew up with recoil. Yank both triggers on a 12 double, spin a circle and laugh, gave that up when the forearm came off and the barrels hit the ground. Run a course with an Ithaca 12 from the hip. Those would keep shooting if you held the trigger back and pumped the action. .44 mag was nothing at all. .300 Weatherby was a toy and I never shot less then 1/2" at 100 with any load, settled on 88 gr of surplus 4831 with the 150 Hornady. .375 is pleasant, 06 is a toy. We were crazy and if a gun did not kick, it was no power.
But I have shot very light rifles in large calibers that sent barrels up 90*. I am not stupid enough for a second shot. I do NOT want a 2# .44 and my revolvers have enough weight. If you get hurt, you did wrong. The worst I ever shot was a Rem 870, 3-1/2" mag with slugs. Had to put a sandbag on my shoulder. There is a point of insanity.

[Don Purcell]

Started shooting 44 mags at 9 years old and Trapdoor 45/70 carbine. The worst was a Ruger No. 1 that had been rechambered to .460 Weatherby with factory loads. Recoil was just busted you. Started to drop the block and it was stuck. Took some force to get it opened. Handed it back to the owner and told him he had a problem somethings wrong. The muzzle was completely copper coated and this just from the one shot. Have shot 460's before no problem. I wondered later if when the rechambering took place that the half inch freebore was left out as this is done on original Weatherbys and increased the pressure drastically.

[44man]

My God, a .460 in a Ruger?

[Lloyd Smale]

I go both ways on this. I have some big guns. 500s 475s 454s ect. I do enjoy going out once in a while and shooting a couple hundred full power loads. I guess I feel ive done it for 20 years or so and don't have anything to prove to anyone as to whether I can handle it our not. That and a carpal tunnel operation on my wrist and two surgerys on my middle finger on my shooting hand for bones spurs which by the way is still twice as big as the knuckle on the other hand. So now when im out just knocking over beer cans or wondering the woods when no big game season is in and im carrying a gun with the first number in the caliber at least a 4 im doing it with light loads.

Nothing more pleasant to me then knocking over cans at 50-100 yards with my 500 shooting some 450s at about 900 fps. Its more pleasant then full power 44 mag loads. Ive found even when hunting that balls to the walls velocity doesn't by you much and tend to load my guns to around 1100 fps for the most part for that or load them where they shoot the most accurate. I also enjoy the heck out of a nice 4 inch n frame with 250s at about 900 fps. A guy can shoot them all day like a 22lr and still be packing enough power for any game animal in Michigan.

About the only round I don't down load is the 454 and that's mostly because its just hard to find accuracy with plinking loads in it or at least its easier to do with a 45 colt. I have to admit 44 man I even enjoy the heck out of taking my smith 15 out with a coffee can of shells and desimate the beer can population. Probably enjoy that more then shooting a 100 hand ripping loads out of my 500 or 475. If recoil is how you guage fun with a handgun maybe I can set you up with Kelly Brost and his 458 lott tc encore. It made me bleed in two shots! Heck of good time[smilie=l:

[44man]

I do not like pain and my middle knuckle is very large from shooting heavy hunting bows. It does not make a good filler behind a trigger guard! I won't give a nasty gun to anyone to shoot so I make sure they can handle them, have the proper grips and how they hold. I hate any gun too light for the caliber too. Had .357's here that were worse then my JRH.
Instruction is very important before anyone pulls a trigger. It is not right to give anyone a painful gun. I make them dry fire to get used to my triggers before putting any loads in and then I watch them like a hawk.
But everyone is different, had a friend here that dry fired his 30-30 dead still but once a round was in the gun, all hell broke loose and he made tater furrows from his super bad flinch. He even had the flinch with a .22! Sometimes nothing you can do will overcome fear. I feel fear should be removed when young enough.
By the way, do not dry fire a Marlin lever gun unless it has the safety or the firing pin can break.
My revolvers have weight and none have ever hurt me and 50 to 100 rounds is nothing but I have shot Freedoms that turned me off. Blackhawks with aluminum grip frames are not in favor either. My 12# Browning BPCR can turn a shoulder black and blue.
The best comment you can get is "gee, not as bad as I expected." It is up to you. Please don't hurt a new shooter. It is just not funny.
I heard about the kid that died but found he had a serious brain disorder and any hit to his head would have killed him. Still, it was wrong to hand him a .454 without proper instruction on how to hold it. My friend split his head and got a huge shiner from my BFR .475. He told me he likes to hold a revolver LOOSE! Seen a head split from a good shooter with a slippery Bisley that I refused to shoot. Never tell me a Bisley handles recoil better. They can ruin your wrist. Better to have a revolver raise your arm.

[44man]

Lloyd is right about the .454. it is the stupid primer. Cut down .460 brass and use a LP mag primer to see the true capabilities.
Also correct about too much velocity but each caliber has a sweet spot for deer. My JRH sucked until I softened half the nose. The .454 is a sad deer gun with a hard boolit too fast, so slow it or initiate some expansion.

[Dale53]

I have read these posts with great interest. All of my deer have been taken with the .44 Magnum (understand, just a fraction of the number of deer that 44Man has taken). During the summer, I competed in a number of matches that called for relatively light loads from .22 rimfire, .38 Special, and .45 ACP (NRA Bullseye, PPC, and full loads in IPSC when the power factor was 180,000, etc.). I've also done my share of Black Powder cartridge shooting in both Rifle and Pistol as well as muzzle loaders (the NMLRA Nationals are only 45 minutes away).

Before hunting season, my hunting buddy and I would each shoot about 2500 full charge home cast bullets in our .44 Magnums to get used to the recoil. When we went hunting we were READY. I was 100% confident on deer from field positions up to my self imposed distance limit of 125 yards. My .44's would pretty much stay on a playing card at 100 yards from a rest. My buddy, Frank, sold reloading gear at gun shows for a living. He related our practice regimen to a customer who asked and the customer was highly insulted. He stated no man alive could shoot 2500 rounds of .44 magnum and left in a huff. Shaking my head, gentlemen, shaking my head:veryconfu... My heaviest recoiling pistol is a TC with a barrel for the .375 JDJ (270 gr bullet at 2000 fps). One of my fondest memories is shooting, standing, a 100/10X's at 25 yards with the kicker on the timed fire target in front of witnesses...

At any rate, when my daughter was six years old we were at the home club range and I was practicing PPC. Out of the blue, she asked me if she could shoot. It kind of caught me unawares... The only handgun I had with me that was light enough for her to hold was a "J" frame snubby. I drew a picture of an ideal sight picture on the back of a target and explained that it was necessary to maintain that relationship while pressing the trigger without disturbing the sight picture. I had NO idea what to expect. I had coached a lot of adults but never small children with a pistol (and a snubby at that). She stepped up to the seven yard line on a police silhouette target. She cocked the revolver, squeezed the trigger, and BANG! A ten! She looked up and stated, "That really bounces". I told her, "Yeah, but it doesn't bother anything". She accepted that and proceeded to fire several revolvers full of shots. There were only a couple outside the ten ring. She did well because she expected to do well. Now, seven yards doesn't make her an Olympic shooter, but just goes to show...

In all truthfulness, since my hunting days are behind me (at nearly 80 I'm too old and feeble to drag a deer out of the woods) but I sure enjoy shooting standard velocity loads in my .32's, .38's/.357, .44 Special, .45 ACP/.45 Colts at paper. During the shooting season I try to make it to the range a couple of times a week. We have an indoor range but for some reason I MUCH prefer shooting outdoors.

My biggest, baddest, rifle was a Model 70 .375 Magnum and I often shot in the high nineties, sitting, at a 100 yards on the smallbore target. Ohio was not a rifle hunting state, so I had to go to Canada to shoot some game with it. I got my bear with it. It turned out the bear was only 25 yards away and was a bang/flop!:bigsmyl2: What can I say?

Like I said, this was an interesting thread. Thanks for sharing.

Dale53

[44man]

Wonderful post Dale. So true that you must be at home with what you hunt with. Would you shoot a pinch of red Dot in a 30-06 and then hunt with a full load of 4350? Not me, I shoot what I hunt with.
Ohio was where I grew up and I hunted deer with my flintlock but we could shoot large rifles or handguns but not for deer until I had to leave the state. yeah, a .44 on the hip was OK. It was a great state for shooting, just not for deer, shotgun or ML only. You could use a .300 Weatherby for chucks. Now it is better. I could shoot the .44 all day but could not hunt deer with it until the the year I had to leave the state.
Ohio has great people and I had places to hunt from Cle to the river. but WV also has great people. It is you that is important and how you treat others.

[Dale53]

>>>It is you that is important and how you treat others.<<<

Amen to that!!

Dale53

[Savage99]

The 44 magnum is my favorite round, so many options for reloading. I have 4 handguns and 1 lever rifle. Anyway, when I go out to the range I start with a 22 just to get the adrenaline down and stop the shakes, the excitement gets overwhelming. I then work my way up to my 44's which I shoot all 5 guns with reloads of various recipes. I love the recoil and the smell of gunpowder. When I take newbies out I start them out with a single shot 22 revolver to get them calmed down as well and work them up to what they feel comfortable with. I had one guy start off with the 22, he had never held or shot a gun before and boy was he nervous. This worked for him and as I moved him up to bigger guns, which he didn't like or feel comfortable with. I kept him with the 22 for safety sake and boy did he have a good time, shot nearly 500 rounds that day. The next newbie I took out couldn't get enough of the big boys and boy did she do good, (I told her husband to watch out) even with one of my harder kicking 44's. I have since become a NRA certified instructor and this instructor saw no problem with the way I taught these particular people, it gives you a chance to observe and find the persons comfort zone and keep things safe. When I was in the Navy, my first range visit, the range master (Marine gunny) evaluated everyone to see what they could handle and what training was needed. Eventually I worked my way up to shoot 30 and 50 caliber machineguns under his watchful eye (there where some he wouldn't let get past the basic 45 acp) and also the gunners mate on board ship. I have been a trainer of various disciplines (cable TV, test equipment, math and such)over the years and this method has worked for me and my "students", start slow and go from there.

[44man]

Everyone is different and fear of recoil is a real problem. Had both cases, neighbors that never shoot all year until season opens but insist on a 7 mag or .300 for 50 yard shots and lose or cripple too many deer.
Then a young lady that her father gave her a .223 to hunt deer with and she lost many, I found one for her with 6" of penetration. I had her dad buy her a 30-30 and she is in love with it. I tell the magnum guys to buy a 30-30 but it is no use. The problem is the tough guys can not handle the big guns and buck fever also takes over. They think big makes up for poor shooting, ever see a guy shoot at deer through brush so thick you can barely see a deer, with a 7 mag? I hear some shoot at deer and how do they turn a bolt gun into full auto is beyond me! The mindset is the gun is so powerful, just hit close. I heard stories of jerks out west shooting at mule deer and if it did not fall, they waited for another one. Same here, I find more dead deer then I can count.
One season my friend was on stand, heard shots from next door. Seen a nice buck come over and did not see him leave. I found the gut shot buck, and we waited for the neighbor but he never tracked it. I told my friend to take it. We will not let him go to waste and the neighbor can go to hell. Too lazy to go see, he does not deserve me telling him I found his deer. I found 3 rotting deer after that one. Call me a thief but if you stay on stand you do not deserve the deer. Come looking and I will help gut and drag. When you expect every deer to drop because you have a big gun, I wish you would stay out of the woods. I now refuse to look for a so called hunter and stop filling my area with rotting deer. I suppose 4 are lost for every one found. Nothing to find 10 when shroom hunting in the spring.
Pull the trigger and you have just begun and I don't care if a day is lost. I have found little deer right under tree stands but since it was gut shot, it was left.
Some you can't teach. Put cross hairs on the shoulder of a running deer, where will you hit?

[Blackwater]

44man, I think most of us here have seen what you're talking about. It saddens us - at least those of us who aren't offended by your post. I don't know when slob hunters began to think they had some sort of right to NOT be insulted, when Truth is what insults them, but if you're guilty of being politically incorrect and being "judgmental," then so am I. I find it increasingly hard to contain myself when I hear stories of such goings on, and it's amazing, but I hear them at the gun shop semi-regularly. Sometimes I can't contain my emotions, and make some rather pointed observations, but the guys at my gun shop don't seem to mind, and have been supportive when they left and I apologized to the owners. Of course, that's one reason I tend to shop there in the first place. Ethics and morals DO still have a place in this world, whether they're generally recognized or not. I guess I'm getting crotchety? But then, I've ALWAYS been like this. I just seem to be getting more stimuli to let it loose on than I used to. C'est la' vie???

[44man]

I don't get upset with most here so you can wale on me now and then. I know most here feel the same so nothing should be taken personal.
It is what I see and hear in the field that turns me grouchy, it is as if a deer's life means nothing.
I grew up respecting and loving animals and if I hit one that refuses to give up, late in the day, I will get my fishing lantern and crawl on my knees, looking for sign until I find the deer and if it takes until 2 AM, so be it.
If I pull the trigger on a deer, I never give up even though I have lost a few over the years, it happens but you MUST try all you are capable of first.
The are as many slobs in the woods as on the street corners. Stealing a mans deer was common when I hunted PA, stolen off the porch of a cabin, etc. I would get an archery deer and hang it from a tree next to my tent but would run a string from a leg into the tent to a pile of pots, pans, forks and spoons, makes a heck of a racket, then we would hear guys running away. The deer was not that important, it was the attitudes of others. If you came up to me after I shot a deer and offered to help, I might ask if you want it. I have given away many to a poor hunter that felt bad.
After somewhere on the order of 580 deer, I can get more. I did orchard control in Ohio and none went to waste. The state gave the owners unlimited tags.

[Blackwater]

Sounds like you were raised much as I was. Principles are STILL important, whether most folks heed them or not. Giving something away is FAR different from having something stolen. The pirate mentality is WAY too common these days, and it's affecting the whole nation adversely. I read a recent thread on another forum about "killing power," and there were as many theories there as there were posters, and most reflected the idea that "more is better." Not once was shot placement mentioned! Even FMJ's kill pretty quickly if placed right, but try to tell most hunters that now, even in the face of the record of many of the old African hunters who could GET nothing else many times, and they think you're crazy, and yes, that has begun to offend me, too. Everybody seems to want the same outcome whether they'll put much into the effort or not ... as though it's some sort of "right" that deer should fall down dead whenever we pull the trigger, no matter what. That mystifies me. And saddens me. We were once a nation of riflemen, but today? Not so much. We seem to have come to accept the theory of "entitlements" even afield, and no longer value working for what we get, but that's a whole 'nother subject, I guess, so I'll leave it there for sake of the forum's tranquility. There ARE rules in Nature, and they DO operate whether we wish to observe them or not, and there IS a consequence for NOT observing them. But what'a I know? I'm just a dumb country boy down in the swamps and don't count for spit any more. But Nature always will, and that's what bothers me. Our nature, and that of the world around us.

[44man]

My friend, you are a man I would love and respect, number one in my book. I learned animals and can make deer come to me, been in the center of a herd feeding all around me because I know how to convince them I am just another deer. Knew rabbits when 10 years old and could boot one but I knew where he was going so I headed it off and was there when it got there.
One time a friend and I were pheasant hunting at a public area. Seen one fly to a patch and every hunter went there with no luck. I picked up a long branch and told Hank to get one like it. We will get just far enough apart to touch ends to beat grass. I got the bird.
Here where I hunt, I know where deer are going after shot. One day a neighbor came for help. I asked where the deer was and blood ran out in 100 yards. I knew where he was headed and we spread out. Grandson, me and the hunter. Over 1/2 mile but we found a beautiful eleven point. Gun too big with a hole you could stick your head in but in the wrong spot. He lost both hams because of brush in the way. At least the hunter came for help.
Had another behind my property ask about looking for deer. I told him to come over my fence and find it. Hit a deer on your property and it comes on mine, better find it. I might not let him hunt here because he is a dip but do not waste a deer. I still found a dead deer rotting, pissed me off.

[Tom W.]

22 grains of 2400 will cause sticky extraction in my SRH, and my former SBH. 21 grains will not. Go figure.

[white eagle]

what is out there for me is some of these so called hunting video's that have the hunters or hunter
laughing or giggling like a school girl after they shoot something,(just a peev of mine)
I hate to see dead animal's on the side of the roadways,I know some can not be avoided but there are some that look like they were intentional
in my book animals and nature is life
we are just here getting in the way with our machines and technology

[Mal Paso]

22 grains of 2400 will cause sticky extraction in my SRH, and my former SBH. 21 grains will not. Go figure.

Might have been that Lot. I had one Lot that 22g got 250g boolits to 1600 fps in a S&W 629 6 inch barrel. Sticky brass! Have not had a batch that hot since. Have not had a new batch to test in a long time but they should be somewhere around Lot #800 by now

[44man]

I have heard some lots were hotter and maybe the change in makers too.
Must work up anyway but I have read 21 is a good load.

[Mal Paso]

I have heard some lots were hotter and maybe the change in makers too.
Must work up anyway but I have read 21 is a good load.

I had worked up the load, I had not retested for That Batch. :oops:

After that I bought 24 lb lots and chronographed test loads of each lot. I'm into my last lot now.

Was it Larry Gibson who did side by side tests, Hercules and Alliant? Found no difference other than normal lot to lot variation. I think even the lot numbers go back to Hercules.

Prolly someone like my grandpa adding the Nitroglycerin. "If a little is good, a little more is better."

[Savage99]

44man and other folks. I have had to stop most hunting due to health issues. When I did hunt I have seen dead deer with just the skull cap and antlers gone, pissed me and my hunting partners off big time, the meat had soured so we couldn't at least finish butchering it. Other times other hunters would shoot at almost anything that moved, including me, even with my bright orange vest. Then others would drive their all-terrains right into the middle of the zone I had scouted, I wanted to shoot them but didn't, did talk to them at their camp, which was easy to find because of all their noise. This is what has happened to hunting in Kalifornia, to many poachers and not much game around anymore. Even the rangers warn you to be careful because of the pot fields being guarded or people shooting anything and everything they see. I only hunt and fish to put the meat in the freezer and made sure of clean kills as best I could. I have had to draw my revolver and fire a few rounds (in the dirt not the air) to scare away some critters from the camp. I do remember, in 1986 on a fishing trip, putting a dog down because he was hit by a vehicle and his back was broke, the fish and game officer later said I did a humane thing and he helped take the dog away for proper disposal. I hunted in Ohio a few years back and deer was everywhere except where I was hunting and quite a few road kills, seems to work that way for me. I do try to get to the range as often as possible because I like to shoot, but in Kalifornia the unsupervised places to shoot have been taken over by yahoos who are not safe at all.

[Lloyd Smale]

Everyone is different and fear of recoil is a real problem that statement covers a lot of the answer. I think of it a bit different though. Biggest problem with big bore shooters is fear of recoil. Some never get over it, some have to continue to work at it forever and some beat the problem. Heavy recoiling handguns don't bother me. ot be honest I have more problem with big bore rifles then handguns. Thousands of rounds out of my various linebaughs and freedom arms guns taught me that they really don't hurt you. I don't have to shoot a 1000 full power 500 linebaugh loads this summer if I want to use my 500 this deer season. Its no real difference to shoot it or a 44 special.

Handgun accuracy is 90 percent trigger control and 10 percent sights. Trigger control It doesn't matter if im pulling the 3lb trigger on my smith 15 or my 475. I don't have to prove anything to anyone by going out and rolling beer cans with loads capable of killing a cape buffalo. Yes I occasionaly do it but I do it for the fun of it not because I feel I need to. Personaly I kind of get a charge out of the guys that come to the range with there big bore guns and hot factory ammo or handloads and blaze away hoping someone sees them and thinks there cool. 9 times out of 10 those are the idiots who couldn't shoot there way out of a paper bag. Look for the guy at the range with his smith 15 or 1911 and a coffee can full of target loads. there you will find a shooter.


When you expect every deer to drop because you have a big gun, I wish you would stay out of the woods.
amen to this. How many people do you see that just went and bought themselves something like a 500 smith and a couple boxes of shells and head out hunting. How many people have bought 44 mags and think because they can handle full power loads they can kill anything?

Will not a 250 grain 44 bullet at a 1000 fps kill a whitetail cleanly. If you don't think so you haven't tried it. Ive killed a truck load of deer, pigs and bear with loads like that in .41s, 44s and 45s. So tell me why if those loads are good enough for deer that a paper target or a beer can is only properly shot with full power loads.:wink: I guess I say to shoot them if you want. But don't think your a superior shooter or handgun hunter because you shoot full power loads all the time. All that really makes you is a recoil junky and ive been there and done that:Fire: it took me many years to realize that I was hunting deer not t rex and that my beer cans were made out of aluminum, not Kevlar wrapped titanium

[Blackwater]

Lloyd, you're so right about not taking all that much to kill deer. A buddy was the go-to guy locally for farmers having problems with the deer population, and he's been the go-to guy for many, many years. He's shot them with just about everything you can think of or name, and he's shot several semi-loads of them. He's used everything from the .22 LR to some of the big magnums, and quite a few have been shot with pistols of about any type and caliber you can name. His favorite? The .45 LC with 200-250 gr. standard loads, usually with SWC's corking the brass. He's known for shooting them in the head, though, whenever that's reasonable to do. Except for one that moved its head just as the sear released, all were DRT. Heart/lung shots, and they go maybe 50 yds. at most. Deer just aren't hard to hit. It's our emotions and negative thinking that are the hard parts to overcome. And I like your comment about 90% trigger control and 10% sights. There's much Truth in there. It only takes .001" to move the POI a MUCH larger distance on target, and that follow-through or trigger control is what keeps those tiny movements down to the barest minimum. Learning to let the hammer fall without moving the gun is the most challenging part of learning to shoot, but it's the most rewarding, too, so I guess it all balances out in the end.

[44man]

Yes Lloyd, you are correct. I don't need some of my loads for deer. I shoot them the way I do for another reason and most are under max. With my boolits and the molds I made, they need shot at a certain velocity or they are a waste. I use so much effort and time with each boolit and loading it that it must hit where aimed or it is just useless to pull the trigger.
Call me frugal, cheap or lazy because I do not enjoy the drudgery of casting, preparing brass or loading, it has never been fun, it is repetition in the extreme for me. I do not hammer out rounds but each is important as the ONE shot.
So my .500 JRH with my 440 gr needs shot at 1350 fps, NOT 1300 or 1400 because I might as well throw them. My .44 boolit NEEDS 1316 fps, never less or more. I tried my .44 at 1100 or so and I would need a 4X8 sheet of plywood to find holes!
My requirement is 1" or less at 50 yards and the closer I get to 1/2" the better and have shot many groups to 100 that did reach 1/2".
So you ask WHY for deer, easy, I do not hunt with less then the best accuracy because it narrows the cone caused by my inadequacy to hold still. When my revolvers go off, the hit is where the sights were even if I am off a little and deer do not deserve less then that. It has allowed me to take deer cleanly, off hand to over 120 yards.
It is not for bragging, it is for respect of the animal and to do all I can so they do not suffer. I do not shoot unless sure either and much prefer 20 yards. Yet even 20 yards still needs accuracy.
Some say 2" at 50 is good enough because it is 4" at 100 but that is not so in many cases due to stability problems so now add in yourself to the 4" that you expect.
Now things are worse as I get older so a brace of at least one arm or off my knees is needed more each year.
I refuse to trade accuracy for anything and if there is recoil, so be it. I have never felt a gun on game and do not remember breaking a trigger either. Same with archery, never remember an arrow released, it is just gone.
I have never had to stop a deer to shoot, lead is auto and so is finding an opening in front of one. I have taken deer at well over 125 with a ML while she was leaping and bounding over brush, also running deer with a revolver. Walking deer are easy. Swinging a revolver on a moving deer is easier then one standing because it removes shakes.

[Lloyd Smale]

no doubt accuracy is king. If it wont shoot id find something that would. I think that if my molds made me shoot top end loads id look at other molds. take a good lfn gas check mold around 280 grain like the lbt or ballistic cast versions I have. they will shoot great at about any velocity if cast hard and shot out of a good gun. May not shoot one inch 100 yard groups at all velocitys but they surely are accurate enough for precise shooting at deer at the ranges I shoot them (100 yards or under) You don't need a bullet that shoots one hole at a 100 yards to hit a deer at that range. Yes I too will take all the accuracy I can get but theres plenty of bullets out there that will shoot into a inch or so at 50 yards at speeds less then full power

[44man]

True, but you still need energy placed. Nothing to do with ME junk either. It is how a boolit works while inside a deer or any animal. Then you still want an exit hole. It gets tougher as boolits get lighter.
Now a 265 or 280 gr would do great but I got away from 240.
Whatever you use, you must get results and fast kills or at least a huge blood trail. Many do not understand how good a revolver is. My friend uses a .270 and I hear him shoot so I go look. I find blood and track for a LOOOONG way to find him. I ask "how did that deer go so far?" He ruins a lot of meat but his deer can make well over 100 yards, few times near 200. The right boolit from a .44 will have deer drop or maybe 30 yards.
I have shot many deer with my 6.5 Swede and they do not go as far as those shot with .300's. It is better then a .270. Comes down to the bullet.