Win 452 AA

[kooz]

I have a 10# container of Win 452AA powder and would like to use it for .45ACP, .45 Colt and .44spl, but can't find hardly any data on it as it is apparantly not made anymore. Does anyone know if this powder is the same as another currently made Win powder or have any good load data ? Thanks

[Scrounger]

This question comes up fairly often. Click on search at the top of this page and type in 'Win 452'. Or find a burn rate chart, there's probably a dozen on the internet. if you can place it on the chart, you can see what other powders are close to it. with that information you should be able to make an educated guess as to a safe starting load. If you can't figure that out, you probably shouldn't be reloading. It is supposed to be just slightly slower than Winchester 231.

[garandsrus]

Kooz,

Here's a thread (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=14108&highlight=452aa) where I posted the same question a while back... It has a pretty good number of responses.

John

[Lloyd Smale]

wst is the same

[Whitespider]

I’ll help ya’ out a little here kooz. Depending on what burn chart you look at, Winchester 452AA is, or was, listed as slightly slower, or slightly faster than W231. By all accounts, it was the same a Hodgdon Trap100, I’ve used them both and can’t dispute that. I believe that WST was the replacement powder, but the data isn’t interchangeable. At one time Winchester briefly listed W452AA in a few select pistol loads, mostly for the .40 S&W, and there was few pistol cast bullet boolit loads in (I believe) the RCBS cast manual. I’ve burned a lot of 452AA in 12 gauge target loads in the past and did a bit of experimenting in pistol cartridges.

W452AA really isn’t a very good propellant for pistol and revolver. It was designed for a special purpose, to send target loads from a 12 gauge at target velocities, and burn properly at 12 gauge target load pressures. I don’t know why, but 452AA gets extremely unpredictable at pistol cartridge pressures, maybe that’s why Winchester dropped the pistol loads from their pamphlets after a year or two. When I messed around with it in some pistol and revolver loads, it would start out like it was slower than W231, but as I worked the load up I’d get unpredictable pressure (velocity) spikes.

I didn’t try it in the .45 ACP, it might be OK with lighter boolits. My gut tells me to keep it out of .45 Colt and .44 Special loads.

[kooz]

Thanks for the replies

[C1PNR]

I have a 10# container of Win 452AA powder and would like to use it for .45ACP, .45 Colt and .44spl. Thanks
If the foregoing posts have discouraged you in your quest to use Winchester 452AA in handgun loads, please consider shipping it to me for proper disposal.[smilie=1:

In my 45 ACP 1911, 3.6 to 3.8 grains of 452AA under a 200 grain H&G #68 with WLP primers in a mix of military brass provided exceptional accuracy. It's in my logs as a favorite load. I only wish I could get a LOT more of it for future target use. YMMV

I'm not sure I'd use it in the Colt or Special cartridges.

[35remington]

It used to be considered "the" powder to use in IPSC circles some time back. It was claimed to be clean burning and soft shooting in .45 ACP.

I don't know if I can verify how soft shooting it is, but it kicks mildly when it is loaded mildly. It is not particularly position sensitive - in fact, I'd call it position insensitive, at least with light charges in the .25-20 and .45 ACP.

Its equivalent is indeed Trap 100 - they're the same powder. Hodgdon and Winchester both listed metallic cartridge data for it.

Winchester shows 4.0 grains with a 185 grain wadcutter for 686 fps at 11,500 # pressure
Winchester also lists 4.5 grains for 769 fps and 13,800 # pressure. In .45 ACP.

Data for Trap 100 (Interchangeable with 452AA; other powders are NOT the same):
.45 ACP Max loads
200 LSWC 5.2 grains 834 fps 14,900#
230 Jacketed 5.1 grains 828 fps 15,800#

.45 Colt
250 grain 6.4 grains 847 fps

.44 Special
210 grain jktd HP 6.5 grains 954 fps 14,800#
225 grain jktd HP 5.3 grains 832 fps 15,800#
215 grain lead gas check 5.3 grains 832 fps 15,800#

Source: Hodgdon's 25th edition.

[Boz330]

5.2 to 5.4 under a 200 gr SWC is what I used to use in IPSC competition. It was indeed softer recoiling and accurate, but temperature sensitive. It was also very cheap compared to other pistol powders. That was a plus when shooting 20,000+ rounds per year.

Bob

[Freightman]

Here is what I found in a old Speer manual #11 dated 1988 so it is 20 years old: 45 APC
.451 dia. Speer, 200g TMJ Combat sectional density .140, balistic coe. .129, 452AA 5.0 start, 5.5 max. the same for a 200g HP. 230g TMJ 452AA 4.7 start, 5.3 max.
357 Mag. 148 g HBWC 452AA 3.0 start 3.3 max for 812fps, 158g SWC 452AA 5.0 Start, 5.5 max for 1004 fps, 110g JHP 452AA 12.5 start, 13.5 max 1488fps, 125g JSP 452AA 10.5 start, 11.5 max 1349 FPS, 38 special 148g HBWC 2.8 start, 3.1 max 802 fps,158g swc, rn, swchp, 452AA 3.6 start, 4.0 max 842fps.110g hp, 452AA this is a +P load 4.5 start, 5.4 max 1072 fps
125g hp +P 4.3 start, 5.1 max, 968fps, 380apc 452Aa 95g tmj 3.3 start 3.7, 1016fps, 9mm Para 124 tmj 452AA 4.9 start 5.4 max 1142fps, 38 super 95g tmj 452AA 6.5 start, 7.2 max 1338 fps.
Not listed for 45 Colt, 44 Special, 44 Mag. this is not my loads it is Speers and use with normal caution.
I use it in my 44 Mag RSBH single action but the data is at my shop and I am not there right now, also have used for 45 colt but that also is at the shop. Hope this helps.

[BerdanIII]

Scot 453 is (was) a 452AA clone; you might be able to find an old Scot powder manual and go from there. I've got one somewhere, will dig it up and post anything that hasn't already been mentioned. I've done a little testing with Scot 453 in reduced J-word rifle loads using 700X data as a starting point and burns much cleaner in heavier loads (10 grs. MV 1300 fps for 147-gr. LPS in the 7.62x54mmR) in rifle cases than it did when I used in the .38 Special.

[MtGun44]

Just be aware that this powder is backwards in it's temp sensitivity compared
to other powders. If you work up a max load on a 100F day, you could have
real problems if you shoot them on a 0F winter day, as they will be much
higher pressure.

Bill

[Alchemist]

Kooz,

I just checked an old (1978- I never throw away old data booklets) Winchester freebie manual back when 452AA was their top shotshell powder. They didn't list it under handgun loads for any caliber. My Speer #10 doesn't list it for .45 ACP either. I'm not sure when Winchester discontinued it, but IIRC it was about the time they introduced Super Target, Super Field, Super Light etc. Super Target is one of the recommended powders for target .45 ACP and .38 Special loads. You might contact Winchester to get their input as to handgun suitability for 452AA. As long as it isn't deteriorated, it should still be okay to use, but proceed with caution if you can't verify your load recommendations. Shotshell data is still available in older manuals...perhaps use it that way or trade for powder that is proven in the calibers you mentioned. Food for thought...be safe.

Alchemist

[kooz]

Kooz,

I just checked an old (1978- I never throw away old data booklets) Winchester freebie manual back when 452AA was their top shotshell powder. They didn't list it under handgun loads for any caliber. My Speer #10 doesn't list it for .45 ACP either. I'm not sure when Winchester discontinued it, but IIRC it was about the time they introduced Super Target, Super Field, Super Light etc. Super Target is one of the recommended powders for target .45 ACP and .38 Special loads. You might contact Winchester to get their input as to handgun suitability for 452AA. As long as it isn't deteriorated, it should still be okay to use, but proceed with caution if you can't verify your load recommendations. Shotshell data is still available in older manuals...perhaps use it that way or trade for powder that is proven in the calibers you mentioned. Food for thought...be safe.

Alchemist

Thanks for the info, I will try and call Winchester tomorrow and see what they say.

[Boz330]

As far as I know Winchester never recomended it as a hand gun powder. Like many things you see on this board, folks just sorted it out themselves. I know several folks that have stashed away kegs of this powder and wouldn't give it up under threat of damnation. You have to understand the shortcomings of this powder though. I would love to slip up on a couple 10 pounders of the stuff.

Bob

[jschance]

Yep, it was the powder of choice for .45 ACP in my IPSC shooting group. We used to go through that stuff by the keg. I've still got a little bit stashed away, but haven't fired any in years. Somewhere in the catacombs, I've got an ammo can of USPSA Major ammo loaded up with that stuff. Wonder how it's aged?

[Alchemist]

Yep, it was the powder of choice for .45 ACP in my IPSC shooting group. We used to go through that stuff by the keg. I've still got a little bit stashed away, but haven't fired any in years. Somewhere in the catacombs, I've got an ammo can of USPSA Major ammo loaded up with that stuff. Wonder how it's aged?

There's one sure way to find out! :Fire:

[Cherokee]

W452 & 45 ACP were my standards for many years, until they quit making it.