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Oldfeller
10-01-2005, 08:29 PM
After telling all you folks a while back about the Savage 110 rifles being sold under the Stevens brand-name at a bargan price from Wal-Mart (on special order basis), I finally got to a place in my life that I had a few extra coins and a wee bit of time at home between jobs to go ahead and buy me one of these little "diamonds in the rough" type guns.

Cost was $268, BTW. Same price will get you a 300 Winchester Magnum or other common long-action case if you really WANT to kick your shoulder around. Long action or short action it doesn't matter -- any caliber Stevens is special order priced at Wal-Mart for $268.

If you are looking a 30-06 or a 270 in particular then take a gander at the Mossberg ATR 100 at $244 (it is sitting out in the rotary display case already). They are getting some decent reviews from early purchasers. The gun is actually a Charter Arms design that Mossberg bought up both the design & tooling for when Charter Arms folded up. Mossberg tried to bring the gun out once earlier, but it didn't take as the Savage 110's were a whole lot cheaper back then and Savage took "corrective actions" to keep their market share.

(And why do you think the low cost Savage/Stevens came popping out of the woodwork right about now? Ponder on it a bit and you won't be too far off the mark with your conclusions -- but also figure that when the Mossberg ATR 100 goes away so does your cheap Savage/Stevens rifles so go get yourself one while this dandy little low-end price war is going on).

I picked me a Stevens in a caliber that I didn't already have, a 7mm-08 short action 22" sporter barrel (6.5 pound weight non-scoped) plastic stocked gun. Gun has a standard trigger and will be laser marked "Stevens" instead of Savage. Other than that, it is last year's Savage 110 model -- before the Accu-trigger design took over.

Why do this? Because I am still trying to build me a very small light weightinexpensive sling-carry-it-all-day rifle. Because the jacketed ballistics on the 7mm-08 are impressive, clearly exceeding those for a .308 for longer distance shooting with any similar jacketed bullet weights. Because I know a lot about 6.5 cast bullets, and I might finally get to actually use that knowledge in a 9.5 twist rate gun of very similar diameter. Because I also wanted to see about that 7mm group buy bullet mold we have never quite been able to pull together yet (even though the group has tried several times to pull together a 7mm order but failed due to lack of order/interest).

(yo, trk -- I read Accurate even though I don't post since they fouled up my password so I can't use it. Maybe Paul H. can fix my Accurate email so I can use it to update my password -- if so I will post on your thread over there on your 7mm-08 cast mold)

Oldfeller

------------------------------------- continued

Oldfeller
10-01-2005, 08:31 PM
This thread is a "saga of a rifle" type thread, it will start with ordering the gun from Wal-Mart. This was surprisingly easy to do, they keep a special order book behind the counter for you to flip through and you can order ANY make or model of rifle from that book at the very best price I have ever seen for brand new guns. Lots & lots cheaper than a gun store as Wal-Mart takes a lower mark up percentage.

The clerk then walks you back to Lay-Away and you put a Lay-Away 50% down on the gun's final price. Whole credit card transaction takes 5 minutes and was remarkably trouble-free and easy to do. Wal-Mart does a lot of Lay-Away stuff and has their Lay-Away computer systems down pretty pat.

Now we wait 5-10 shipping days for the gun to come in. Like all Wal-Mart stuff the gun is drop shipped from mgf to store on an instant-order ship it today basis. The Lay-Away system orders the gun automatically when your charge card amount clears since it is "out of stock" at the store. Instantly, a drop ship order shows up at Savage -- and they process it ASAP as Wal-Mart is a BIG seller of their products.

In the mean time, let's talk about Savages a bit. Some hate the way they look, most don't care for the factory lawyer trigger pulls (Accu-triggers are really nice, BTW, but not really worth $100+ price upper). And most will find the injection mould parting lined light gray plastic stocks to look kinda cheesy.

But nobody really argues that Savages have earned a reputation for shooting really really well right out of the box. Consistently well, to the point some consider them to be the only box stock minute-of-angle or less rifles that you can buy for a low end price. We shall see if the Stevens brand successfully carries this rep over from the standard Savage 110 rifles.

You can find a lot of various info on the web about tuning a standard Savage trigger -- info I don't really care for because it involves removing the skin on a sintered/carbuized/fused powdered metal skin sear and notch arrangement as you "fine tune" the engagement. I will be investigating adding material to the low pressure sear height stop side along the same notion that the very old Savage triggers (pre-lawyer vintage) had with their fine pitch engagement height tuning screw which let you tune the sear engagement down to whatever you felt was safe for your gun. This way I will leave all my sintered skin durability in place but get the shorter crisper engagement zone that I desire. Trigger pull weight, that means playing with the coil spring compression a bit. We will see how that works out when the gun gets here.

There is web info on reinforcing the plastic stock forend section, removing some extra plastic for channel to barrel clearance and glass bedding in the "steel pillar" area to add extra sturdyness to the stock/action junction. Mileage on this sort of work varied, some actually said the factory arrangement was just as good if it was tightened down periodically (the plastic yeilds a bit under compression). Me, I will be looking to lighten the stock (if possible) while strengthening it, certainly I am not going to be adding any more weight to it.

Hey, it's a hobby toy ..... I spent a lot more time and effort cherrying up several 8x57 and 6.5 milsurp guns. You can cherry up a brand new cheapie Stevens gun a whole lot easier for about the same total $$$ investment.

I do like my short light rifles, I already built me a bear killing 250 grain box-car slinging scoped short light .333 caliber Steyr that kicks the immortal **** out of my shoulder when I shoot it with full bore loads, so this time I am going much "lighter" on the caliber so as to put more shooting pleasure back into my equation.

Did you know that people like to shoot moose and elk out west with 165 and 175 grain 7mm premium bullets? If you think about it, using a new Barnes X bullet (or a Winchester Fail-Safe) which will still open up and will still penetrate all the way through even at "lower than magnum velocities" with their 100% weight retention and low opening speeds? Did you know that a similar 145 grain slug out of a 7mm-08 can do the about same job, given fail-safe or X bullet type construction and 100% bullet weight retention?

As Jump keeps telling us, it's THE HOLE that matters -- be careful to put it in the right place and please have it go all the way through if possible.

Now I know you all know this little factoid -- Bell shot his hundreds of elephants with 7mm FMJ bullets. They weren't all brain shots either, he'd lung shoot them too (from a good distance of course). He used a lower pressure, lower velocity 7x57 to do it with -- 7mms get excellent meat and bone penetration for the same reasons they get those superior BCs in flight.

Hey, what you may not consider is that I really DO know how damn hard it is to stop 1,650 fps cast 6.5 bullets. So, I KNOW my new light-weight 7mm-08 cast bullet rifle isn't going to be "undergunned" for very much down here in the lower 48 states.

I am also hoping for some much faster bullet fps speeds than the 6.5 cast slugs .... we done been promised faithfully they do exist by both Joe and Buckshot.

Heck, If all it costs me is an extra gas check ......

<g>

Oldfeller

David R
10-01-2005, 09:09 PM
I purchased the 308 the same way you got yours.

About the trigger. The return spring is adjustable, its a long torsion spring with one coil on it. I only cleaned up the trigger and sear faces with some 600 wet or dry. I then soldered a feeler gauge to the part where the sear stop for engagment is. I ended up using a .008 piece. Trigger pull is now awesome. If I bang the rifle on the floor REAL HARD it will occasionally trip the trigger. I can tighten up the spring if I want. The 3 position safty works fine except some times when I am firing full house J boolits, the safty goes on by its self. The first time this happened it scared the crap outa me because I went to lift the bolt and thought I had a bad reload and blew up the gun. Once I realized the safty was on, I just slid it off. I don't hunt with this gun at all. Its just a play target gun to shoot cast out of. The only reason I shot the J boolits is to schmooz out the barrel. It has and never will shoot a factory load. I have been getting good groups (3/4" @ 50 yards) with a 311466 ahead of 11 grains of red dot or 20 grains of 2400. I like this gun, it comes with no sites like a rifle should be. I am looking at boyds for a laminated stock. The grey plastic one is real felxable at the fore end. The piller bedding is nice. I don't know if a different stock will change how it shoots, but it will look better. I like blue steel and wood. I have been spending so much time with my enfield and 24V that I have not given all the attention that I want to. I think I have both of those rifles shooting the way I want. I do have about 4500 30 cal boolits cast for it and my enfield. One reason I bought it was I didn't have a nice gun with a scope on it to shoot cast. Now I do. I bought a Burris (bushnell?) 4-12 AO at wally world for $69.00 to keep in spirit with the gun purchase. So far it has been a lot of fun and seems to shoot well.

Waiting to hear how yours shoots.

Don't do this at home, What works on my gun may not be safe on yours yadda yadda yadda.

David

felix
10-01-2005, 09:44 PM
David, please don't forget your statement--I don't hunt with this gun at all--until you can throw that gun down on concrete and not have that trigger trip. I know from past experience (with a shotgun). Trick triggers are for bench guns only. ... felix

StarMetal
10-01-2005, 11:37 PM
I have to agree with Felix on a touchy trigger for hunting. In my opinion a hair trigger has no reason to be on hunting rifle, except maybe on a heavy barreled, heavy rifle, with bipods and strictly used for varmint shooting at long distances. My CZ 550 30-06 has a set trigger, which is wonderful, but there's no way in hell I would ever set it for deer hunting.

Oldfeller,

There's a long story of how I ended up with my Sako 7mm-08 Mannlicher carbine, but I don't want to tell it here and now. What I can say is I'm not one bit sorry I have that rifle now. It's one heck of a round and deer slayer. I was pleasantly surprised to find out that it shoots a hard alloy Lee 135 gr cast bullet just the same as the 139 Hornady's I've used for hunting and that's 3/4 inch groups, and that cast is going nearly 2700 fps. It also shoots to the same impact as the jacketed. Can't ask for more then that.

Joe

Oldfeller
10-02-2005, 12:09 AM
Felix, I generally do my trigger work first, then I bounce mine on the butt pad a time or five pretty hard to see if it will fire. Then I cock it again while I am making my pound slug of the throat area. If it won't go off while I am whapping that steel rod with a light sledge hammer I figure it is safe enough for personal uses. I mount the scope last, of course (sledge hammers and scope optics don't mix very well).

Beyond that, I don't really WANT a hair trigger for a big game gun -- I'd get excited and squeeze it off too soon. 3-4 lbs & clean breaking is what I am after. What I don't want is a mushy long-traveling pull up (nobody knows when this thing is going to get there) trigger with a mile of overtravel slop to flop around in after it lets go.

Light recoiling guns that are intended for some varmint work (like my 6.5 swede for example) do get a lighter trigger than say a hard recoiling 8mm gun. Hell, you have to be able to really hand grip a strong recoiling gun or it will beat you to death, so you can't be dialing in any hair triggers on your strong recoiling guns.

My lever action Marlin still has a 4-5 pound trigger, but some of the excess take up travel was removed. To lighten it more would take too much work and 4-5 might be a correct amount of pull for a gun where your actual trigger finger is going up and down with the lever each time you work the action. (yes, I know there are lever close buttons that have to make and there are interupters in the firing pin itself to keep it from firing out of battery, but it shoots real good the way it is and I like it the way it is just dandy).

This one will tend to be lighter, but I won't be doing stupid stuff to get there. Last Savage I did was 3 pounds and crisp, so it can be done.

Oldfeller

Oldfeller
10-02-2005, 12:14 AM
Hey Joe, you told me that story before (and it is a good one -- the Sako guy tried to take good care of you and apparently he did). I don't know if my Savage/Stevens is going to have tall enough rifling to support the standard LEE nose, I'll find out after I get my pound slugs done.

We need to do us a good 7mm bullet -- we designed one last year that was Loverin based that looked about like the 6.5 Kurtz slug scaled up a bit. Dan at MM can cut 7mm molds now, so that is an option as well.

Oldfeller

Frank46
10-02-2005, 03:22 AM
Oldfeller, in '95 when I retired I purchased a savage 110FP tactical rifle in 308. Paid $289 for it. It has the rynite (plastic) stock. That was when savage made long actions for short calibers. I could not get this rifle to shoot consistently. Finally figured out that it was the stock itself causing the problem. Was so flexible that the action was shifting each time it was fired. The portion of the stock where the reciever ring sits was filled with accra glass gel. Poured it in and then poked some more in to fill the gaps. Rifle will do 3/4" w/jbullets. But the front receiver screw still has to be checked as sometimes it will loosen up. Already got some nice shavings from the stock. When It cools down will put in an aluminum pillar. But it was worth the time and effort.Even now when I check the action for rust the stock where the bedding compound was installed has to be massaged to get the action back in. Frank

David R
10-02-2005, 06:30 AM
My dad and I both had Savage 110's in long action. His a 270, mine a 7mm mag. One of the action screws was too long and hitting the bolt. We had to file a little off the end of screw and things were fine.


No I do not hunt. I am shooting targets 2x a week or so. I gave up hunting Deer because not enough shooting goes on and I don't eat them. Small game, that is another story. I think a good trigger is as important as a Decent scope for a target rifle.


I think this gun is a fine piece especially considering the price. Being able to put the safty on and work the action is a nice feature.

David

felix
10-02-2005, 09:43 AM
Kelly, a clean break 3.5 pound trigger, even if it has a lot of take-up, is perfect for field conditions, as well as for off-hand target. A 2.0 pound trigger for light recoiling guns is fine when the gun can point only in one direction. Varmit guns fit this latter category, as well as some fine light recoiling autos. I shot a sillywet rifle with a 2 ounce trigger during a match, and found that thing to be far too dangerous for anything but that sport. No, correction. Just too damn dangerous, period. ... felix

waksupi
10-02-2005, 10:36 PM
I agree with the light trigger thing. I have three firearms with set triggers, which are strickly for competition, and one with what most would consider a hair trigger, on a varmint rifle, that is used for longer range rest shooting generally. If you can't lay your finger on the trigger without worrying about it going off, it's too light for most purposes, and is outright dangerous.

Someone mentioned the fact they like to be able to open the action on a bolt rifle, when the safety is on. That may be ok for small game or hunting in the flatlands, but absolutely sucks for mountain hunting. You will find the bolt is snagged repeatedly by the smallest twig, and the action opened when hunting heavy steep timber. Ammo gets lost, as sometimes you may not notice it immediately, and when I had one of the Ruger rifles years back, I was always concerned I may actually loose the bolt. And that isn't a good thing when you're thirty miles on horseback to the highway, let alone somewhere to replace any lost items.

David R
10-03-2005, 06:24 AM
Waksupi

The savage has a 3 position safty. You can put it on to lock the bolt, or unlock the bolt with the safty still engaged. With the light trigger, its nice to keep the safty locked while loading.

Trailblazer
10-03-2005, 10:39 AM
I submit that what makes a safe trigger is what you are used to. I was serious about rifle silhouette several years ago. The rules allow a 2 lb. trigger for hunter class. I therefore attempted to get all my rifles to have about a 2 lb. pull including my hunting rifles so that I would be used to it. I have never had an accidental discharge with a 2 lb. pull. I don't know of any competitive shooters that willingly use a heavier trigger pull than is allowed by the rules. That said, the service rifle boys are limited to a 4-1/2 lb. pull and they do quite well. I also hunt in warm weather where you do not need gloves. If I hunted in cold weather I would be more comfortable with a heavier trigger.

Safety is between your ears. If I am in the brush there is not a round in the chamber unless I am at port arms and expect to see something. I also constantly check the safety and bolt in the brush to make sure things are where they are supposed to be. I also don't stick my fingers inside the trigger guard until it is time to shoot.

slughammer
10-03-2005, 05:39 PM
Then I cock it again while I am making my pound slug of the throat area. If it won't go off while I am whapping that steel rod with a light sledge hammer I figure it is safe enough for personal uses.

Oldfeller

When you are making a pound slug, do you find the diameter of the slug in the throat area to be slightly oversize? Reason I ask is I was just comparing a couple of attemps at measuring my Savage 340 and found some variations.

I did one attempt from the back using a 38 cal pure lead slug driven forward into the neck and then driven out from the front. My attempt from the front was using a fired case filled with lead, then a 30 caliber pure lead slug was inserted into the neck and closed in the rifle. I used the steel rod to pound from the muzzle end and expand the slug. When opening the action, I needed to tap the steel rod to extract the slug; so I'm thinking the slug was over expanded and springed out when extracted. The 38 slug measures the throat out at .3115 and the 30 cal slug says nearly .313.

The technique with the fired case is very nice because it showed me that the chamber is 2.100 long, but I trust the 38 slug better for the throat and chamber neck diameters.

Which technique are you using?

Oldfeller
10-03-2005, 09:04 PM
Take a fired case with the primer intact from that gun, stick a round pencil or a pen body or a wooden dowel into the case mouth to provide a diameter a little less than the bullet diameter, wrap shoulder and neck in tin foil for several wraps then tape the tin foil securely to the case and to itself but not to the pen body. The tin foil must extend further than a bullet would by a quarter of an inch or a bit more as it is going to get shorter when you pound on it.

Pull pen body carefully, grab case with pliers and fill case and tin foil "bullet" area up with molten lead, refilling it as the lead shrinks down the tin foil "neck/bullet zone. Let the case/slug cool slowly -- do not water quench.

Remove tin foil and spin case in drill press while dressing "slug" with file -- goal is for the slug to just barely go into throat freely upon loading. Take steel drill rod from hardware store that will go down bore with a bit of clearance and dress it at the end so it has a slight taper and a flat end. Clearance of 1/8" rod to bore is about ideal for this use. Add masking tape to drill rod by the end zone (two rows leaving 3/8" of steel sticking out at the end) add a row in the middle and two rows up by the top such that your rifling always hits tape, never steel. Without this support the rod will bow and hit your rifling while you are pounding on the slug (a bad thing).

Put oiled slug in chamber, leave safety off & gun cocked (this is your trigger test mode). Carefully insert rod from muzzle and let it go down until it rests on the lead protrusion. Hold gun vertical, take light short handled sledge hammer and hit the end of the rod with a straight up-down blow such that the hammer remains engaged to the rod end at the end of the blow. Continue hitting until you get bored or you feel the bounce becoming more and more solid (lead has expanded fully when it doesn't give any more).

Leave rod in place and try to raise bolt handle. "Drag and it opens" is generally not pounded enough, a stuck case is normal for this activity. Do not force the bolt handle to open, just raise it until it is stopped by the case retractor groove and the bolt extractor and let it rest right there. DO NOT FORCE IT. Return gun to upright hitting position and very lightly bump the steel rod with the big hammer. VERY LIGHTLY, once or twice. The case will move back and reseat on the bolt face, allowing a bit more bolt movement.

Raise bolt handle some more and repeat bumping action until the chamber finally releases the pound slug. If you were persistent, the lead now faithfully follows the contours of the throat area. Generally I have to force it back in and pound on it some more to get it to "fill out" correctly. The lead that swedges back between rod and rifling is very accurate for bore diameter and rifling height measurement as it has flowed under great pressure to fill that zone, yet it gets no further upset action during removal as all the action is past it now.

When you are done, you have a forced lead equivalent of a cerrosafe casting. Yes, you can tap an OS slug in from the chamber end with a soft brass rod to back check your throat size (and I do) but the pound case/slug is the only way to get an accurate length relationship of the chamber changeover points to an expanded case. The fired case was expanded to fit the chamber at firing and the lead pounding action re-expanded it to be just a bare slip fit again.

One pound slug and several "tapped in" OS bullets will tell you all you need to know about your throat area for fitting a new bullet.

Oldfeller

lar45
10-03-2005, 09:33 PM
My 17yo Son got his Mom one of the Stevens in 7-08 for her birthday. He's been saveing some money and is going to get a Stevens in 25-06 this week. I think they look pretty good. We saw some in the Farm supply store for $259.99

David R
10-03-2005, 10:01 PM
Thank you Oldfeller!

carpetman
10-04-2005, 01:14 AM
lar45---son getting a 25-06. What will a 25-06 possibly do that a .270 doesnt do better?

Jetwrench
10-04-2005, 02:32 AM
Carpetman,
Shoot 25 cal bullets. HAR, HAR, HAR.
Sorry, just could not stop myself.
Jetwrench

Oldfeller
10-04-2005, 06:41 AM
Caliber selection amongst us generally runs along the lines of "I ain't got one and I aways wanted to try one out".

If you religiously follow the "it can't do any thing XX can't do" thread, you will have us all shooting .308's and 30-06's because of BETTER BULLET SELECTIONS that are available in 30 caliber. But then there are ballistics to consider, too.

Notice I picked my 7mm bore size because it out-ballistics a .308 at same bullet weights? We pick our guns for whatever excuse we want to use to justify a gut level choice. I picked the gun itself because it is small and nifty and cheap.

Oldfeller

Oldfeller
10-09-2005, 10:44 PM
Gun is brand new in a virgin-looking uncrumpled cornered box. The cardboard packaging was uncrumpled inside the box (gun wasn't slug around in transit). Hey, this is the first BRAND NEW rifle I have ever bought, so bear with me while I check it out in some detail.

First, the plastic stock is really rough with lots & lots of irritating flash lines that need to be filed or sanded away. Next, the barrel has two different external finish textures to it and feels "rougher" to the touch on the back half of the barrel compared to the front.

The trigger is better than I thought it would be, it approaches crisp right out of the box. Pull is heavy though -- but that is fixable.

Bore came to me dirty from firing the proof rounds. Standard cleaning got all the powder fouling out of it and there was no noticeable copper fouling to remove. The bore feels "tight" on both my same old 7mm bore brush and to the cloth patches as well. Consistent, but "tight" and push through resistance is a lot higher than I am used to feeling.

Throat starts out at .2875" and goes down to .2860" by the start of the end of throat junction bevel zone. Throat is only .160" long which is too durn short for most of the long 160 and 175 grain 7mm jacketed bullets. My Savage 7 Mag had a .250" throat section on it, this 7mm-08 is only .160" long in the throat.

Bore wall diameter measures tight, at .2835" bore wall diameter. Rifling is short, at .2795" land top to land top. Bore shows .0005" taper from throat to muzzle on slugs tapped in from each end, but that might be the crown edge burr showing up a wee tiny little bit on the muzzle tap in.

Barrel was button rifled. There are NO noticeable reamer marks, finish is VERY consistent. Button polished both the bore walls and the tops of the lands (ie. modern button rifling style was used). Heck, it measures tight so maybe it just is simply bit of a tight bored gun (possibly due to the use of older 7mm buttons on the Stevens line -- got to economize on tooling somehow). This bore is actually the prettiest bore I have ever studied, so I'm not knocking it by any means. Live with it, yes I can !!

This gun could accept the .288" as-cast diameter of the lead loverin slug we talked about making up last year, but not the length. Bullet length is the real limiting issue here, this gun could not accept a Loverin bullet longer than .7500" long, gas check to the start of the ogive curve. Short, very short if you want to keep a cast slug up in the neck area like we always attempt to do.

Or you can use a bore rider design (if you can get a BR nose section sized up at .281" diameter that is). Joe, is the LEE nose at or over .2805" diameter ?? I lapped mine out so I have no stock LEE 135 grain 7mm mold bullet noses to try against it.

This rifle was purpose built for 130-150 grain jacketed slugs -- it is an ideal fit for these lighter bullet weights. Magazine has room for a 3.025" OAL round, which means jacketed bullets no longer than 1.250" long can be seated in the neck zone.

A thought -- rifling is very narrow and very short. This gun will never work well with a land top rider design as there isn't much land top to ride on. Loverins would work better, but would engage full rifling deep over a good distance if the slugs were seated in the neck.

How short of a Loverin could you guys tolerate?

Oldfeller

StarMetal
10-09-2005, 10:52 PM
Oldfeller,

Sounds like my Sako 7mm-08 far as short throat. My Sako does accept the Lee 135 gr with no problems and also shoots it FANTASTIC. It also shoots the Lyman 150 gr loverin very well too, but I must seat it into the powder space. The nose of my Lee 135 mics out .278 to .279.

Joe

Oldfeller
10-09-2005, 11:12 PM
Yeah, but it won't touch my tiny short Savage rifling at .279" -- it would be a sloppy air-ball fit at best.

Ok Joe, Buckshot and the guys -- let's start talking short Loverin again -- and for once I don't care if it has a flat on it or not. Actually, for a 7mm plinker bullet a pointy end might make more sense as if it was going big game hunting it wouldn't be this particular gun anyway. I got LOTS of better big game caliber rifles to kick my shoulder good and if I was throwing slow light cast slugs at a deer it would be out of a Karlina (6.5 cruise missles kill real good for light recoiling slow bullets ..... )

7mm varmint/plinker Loverin almost needs to have a pointy end for maintaining its speed and having a better BC over longer distances -- so how is that for a total change of heart? Anyhow, if we can get Buckshot and Joe's higher 7mm speeds out of this thing meplat doesn't matter as the pointy end exposed lead expansion will be right violent anyway.

Trk, you got your ears on?

Oldfeller

StarMetal
10-10-2005, 12:11 AM
Oldfeller,

If you are familiar with that Lyman 150 gr loverin, I would have to say that it would need to be 1/4 inch shorter to fit my Sako without the base being below the neck/shoulder junction. I got good velocity out of the Lyman loverin but not nearly as fast as I could shoot the Lee. I don't know what goes wrong with it, the Sako has a 9.5 twist, so not sure if it bends in flight or if the increase powder charges burns the portion of the bullet that is below the case neck. That Lyman Loverin is pretty pointed so I don't think it's aerodynamics that makes it go screwy.

Oh I edited this in, I'm not sure what alloy that bullet I miked was because I have some that waterquenched WW's and some that have Linotype in them. Those two different alloys would have different cast bullet diameters

Joe

Oldfeller
10-10-2005, 09:58 PM
Here is a Savage/Stevens trigger group -- see the un-drawn straight rod spring 0.055" diameter steel wire spring that is straw-colored tempered at about six pounds of pull force as the factory provides it? See the electric eye of the stove? See the light purple colored steel wire spring with a single mild heat-treat draw done to it resulting in about 3 pounds of spring return force? See the crisp clean ground sear surfaces with engagement height reduced by about 50%?

See all the Savage technicians and corporate lawyers having dozens of little purry Christmas presents for Carpetman all over the place? This is EXACTLY what you should NEVER EVER do to a new gun -- stuff like this voids your factory warranty almost as quick as shooting home-grown reloaded ammo with lead bullets.

Never ever do this sort of stuff to your firearm -- it could be DANGEROUS to you and your hunting pardners. Don't ever punch any odd looking addresses into your browser either.

http://www.varminthunters.com/tech/savage110trigger.html

http://www.varminthunters.com/tech/savage/

Now, at 2 pounds of trigger pull I wonder how much "adjustment" he had to do on his safety screw to get his half-safety position maintain the sear in engagement when the trigger is yanked on? No wonder Savage safetys are so stiff acting -- they are actually under conflicting tension all the time if they are correctly adjusted. Please, do make sure your safety WORKS correctly !!!!

Also, my overtravel screw was backed totally out as shipped from the factory (them bad lawyers acting up again). Note: your overtravel screw can act as a trigger pull "increaser" if the overtravel amount is set less than 1/32 of an inch, so consider having a tiny little bit of overtravel and don't try for any "approaching zero" overtravel.

Bounce your rifle a lot on it's butt pad, yank on the trigger with the safety on (both half and full safety positions) and please also note if you have dialed in too light of a trigger pull you might just pull it accidentally when you see that big buck and get all excited ...

Oldfeller

Oldfeller
10-11-2005, 06:50 PM
First look down below at the pictures of the PARTING LINES on this injection molded polystyrene stock -- there is an amazing amount of insert work and simple wear on this old mold's parting lines. Then again, this is not a simple uncomplicated plastic mold either.

The mold was insertable for short or long actions and the checkering is on removeable inserts so it can be changed out when it starts to erode. The main die parting line splits the stock on the as held vertical axis, there is a pull slide for all the barrel channel features and an opposing slide for the trigger guard group and the four mounting screw bosses that come in from the bottom side. The butt stock is hollow (another major slide) and the die mounts two steel inserts that get injection molded in place to become the dual steel pillar barrel mounting system.

This is an old mold -- it has signs of repair work having been done on it in the past. Just remember, it fits up to your shoulder good and it balances that 20" medium sporter barrel just fine -- so let's file and sand it to get rid of all the parting line nonsense so it can feel good to the hands again.

Oldfeller
10-11-2005, 10:27 PM
This was very interesting, it is the first time I ever worked with an injected molded styrene stock material. I do believe it has some fiberglass in it (my itching tells me so).

First, don't sand the parting lines and the knit lines -- scrape those knit lines with a scraper action using the curved edge of your pocket knife. This works GREAT compared to any other method. You will need to sharpen your knife afterwards, but it sure works better than sanding.

If you feel you MUST sand the plastic stock don't waste your time with very fine sandpaper -- use 100 grit open grit paper (normal wood sanding paper). This will cut fairly well and will remove material at about half speed as compared to sanding wood and it won't instantly clog up.

I sanded my stock to a smooth, consistent 100 grit finish all over every nook and cranny. Then I took a pad of 000 steel wool and polished off all the tops of the 100 grit sanding marks leaving me with a consistent smooth matt gray finish to the stock. (very similar to the way it looked new but just a tad more matt)

Texture after sanding and steel wooling is much improved to the feel compared to the new finish on the as-shipped stock -- more of a rubbery than slicky plastic feeling.

I was concerned that the Savage/Stevens plastic stock would be slick if it got wet. It may be the material or it may be the buffed off sanded finish but when it gets wet it now feels just like wet rubber. There is no slip as the wet coefficent of friction is excellent and the grip on the gun is IMPROVED compared to the same grip when the stock is gripped dry. Wood stocks don't do this -- when they get wet they get slippery.

Now, if I could just get rid of all the little rods of broken off fiberglass and tiny fragments of steel wool that are sticking in my skin all over my arms and belly and legs ------

<itch> scratch <itch> scratch <itch> scratch

Oldfeller

David R
10-12-2005, 06:27 PM
Thanks for the tip on the spring. I changed it today. Made for a more consistant pull.

David

Oldfeller
10-13-2005, 06:10 AM
First, why do this at all? I dunno -- habit I guess ....

The stock is form fitted to the action and the pillar block bolts are a slip fit in the injection molded in place steel mounting blocks. The recoil lug is a recoil force tightened fit-up to the stock, so why folks report these things slinky around on them is beyond me. Keep the allen headed mounting bolts tight and you shouldn't have any trouble anyway.

But, while we are here ..... (this is a project gun after all).

BEFORE:

Note light sanding of the block area to give the epoxy some roughness to stick to. This is plastic -- even epoxy is going to need a little help to stick to it good. Note the PAM frying pan spray on the action to keep the epoxy from sticking to the steel.

==============================================

Hah !!! This is your perfect 20-20 hindsight speaking to you from the future -- all your ASS-umptions were exactly that, and guess what you are now because of your ASS-uptions !! You are all full of **** and everything you though was wrong !! WRONGGGGGG !!! Na-Na, ya done screwed up again .....

==============================================

Oldfeller
10-13-2005, 11:54 PM
First, keep your layer of epoxy very thin - the action is already a rounded saddle block fit to the pillar mounting zones in the stock. Most of your epoxy is going to get moved out of the way during clamp up and you don't want enough excess to wander into places you don't want it to be.

Next, use a thick paste type slow-setting epoxy. Thick paste so it will not run and slow setting (at least an hour to set up) so you have time to do all the things you have to do.

Lay out the two bolts, the grease, the magazine follower, the epoxy and the allen wrench ahead of time so you can see them and find them "easy to hand" with your hands full.

First coat the bolts with the grease then go wash your hands. Mix the epoxy good then apply the thin coat to the needed areas with a finger tip (you need the dexterity of your finger tip to work the stiff paste on to the surfaces it needs to evenly coat). Wash your hands again.

Hold the gun upright, tilted slightly front to back. Put the bolts all the way into the respective holes (long one goes through the trigger guard). Put the magazine follower in place (bevel goes towards trigger group side).

Now the tricky part, with bolt heads protruding so you can get to them settle the action into place and get the bolts started BEFORE the action settles into the glue. You don't want glue inside the bolt/action thread engagement zone, starting the greased bolts first prevents this from happening.

This is why the gun is held vertically, during snuggling you want any slop to go towards the rear (the way the action would want to move during recoil). You want the recoil lug and the two bolt holes and and the box magazine and everything else to go solid with all the slop being used in the rearward direction.

Finger snug the allen bolts with the small end of the allen wrench starting on the trigger side and alternating back & forth between the two allen bolts. Switch to the high torque end of the allen wrench and finger tighten slowly and evenly back & forth until you feel the steel inserts hit the action. You can feel the action settling through the glue, so keep an eye on barrel centrality and keep on snuggling until it all goes nice and solid.

Now apply medium tighten up force and then lay the rifle horizontal in the normal use position and leave it alone for 48 hours to allow full set up of the epoxy.

Oldfeller
10-14-2005, 09:03 PM
OK, I guess you saw my 20-20 hindsight giving me some small amount of hell earlier -- THINGS DID NOT GO ACCORDING TO PLAN. My plan anyway, Murphy might have kept to his plan -- but it wasn't my plan, nosirreee buddy.

This is why some bold pilgrim goes there first, so the rest of you guys can count the arrows in his back and make some better plans than he did.

Categorically, these Savage/Stevens guns need to be bedded. There is positional error between where the holes tell the gun to be and where the recoil lug would rest against the stock. THERE IS ROOM FOR STUFF TO MOVE AROUND IF YOU DON'T BED IT GOOD.

Furthermore, it will take at least two beddings to get it right.

Next, bedding material (even epoxy bedding) is going to want to stick to the PAM sprayed steel more than it does to that plastic stock material. This is absolutely amazing to me. All your bedding is going to do is take up slop space with a fitted solid and reference everything back to the pillar blocks and the bolt holes and the load bearing face of the recoil lug. You do get locational benefit, but it comes to you ass backwards.

The bolt hole in the trigger guard is going to squeeze down the hole diameter to a force fit. The plastic seating bosses are going to settle until the steel pillars seat hard against the steel action. There is a GAP between the action recoil lug and its mating recess that fills with epoxy.

Pictures, we need pictures ......

Not pictures of the stock, nothing stuck to it, absolutely nothing. Use the before pictures of the stock, they are the exact same images as the afters would be.

You can see the lug needs more bedding on its flat surface to take up the slop area. The pilliars need more bedding on top of the pillars themselves. The back saddle is about maxed out, the stuff oozed dangerously close to the trigger mechanism, so easy does it on that end.

David R
10-15-2005, 07:47 AM
Odfeller,

This is good. I have the same gun in 308, and have been following along. I have a couple of guns that need bedding and thought this one would be a good guinnea pig because if I screw it up, I want a real laminated wood stock anyhow.

So thank you for sharing this with all of us.

Just some notes. On my savage, I can see the action hits one place on the rear aluminum insert. Just in the center and my lug does bear on the stock right now. I can see the marks. It doesn't touch the front insert at all.

David

Oldfeller
10-15-2005, 08:29 AM
David, it takes a lot of torque on the allen bolt to draw the front part of the action down into contact with the steel pillar. I really don't know if the saddle block moves out of the way or the steel insert moves up in the plastic boss for the contact to take place (the whole area may deflect some).

I dunno.

I do know when you go back to the stock the torque on the rear bolt has dropped back to mild, so something sure is moving over time. I'd torque the front nut area bolt down hard until you know it has contacted the pillar block (or until you think you are threatening the threads in the action itself).

All we are really doing with this bedding is making sure any gaps are taken up. We may actually be widening some gaps when we force epoxy paste into them -- since everything wants to move this is a possibility.

Now, having thought that thought -- next time I put it together it with more epoxy it STAYS together until I have some good compelling reason to take the action out of the stock again. This way the as-bedded condition (pillar block "relaxed" torque, force-oozed epoxy paste contact pressures and all resulting stock deformations) remains absolutely intact for as long as possible.

PS Taking the action back out of the stock was very easy -- this makes sense because absolutely nothing sticks to the plastic stock material. One good slam on the butt pad with the allen screws loosened popped it free.

Oldfeller
10-15-2005, 10:12 AM
Now we know that the bedding always sticks to the steel and how it moves & oozes when it gets clamped up, we can re-apply bedding compound in ways that stop the "augmented" steel action from moving in the plastic stock.

Note I was generous in the areas that didn't get close to the trigger and wouldn't show from the outside of the gun. Specifically, the steel recoil lug was pre-coated separately and it will settle into a nest of bedding epoxy that I put into the stock. Once hardened it will all become a much larger composite recoil lug that will engage both sides of the box magazine and some of the ribbing features in the bottom of the stock.

(I never did care for that rattle-loose fit up of the sheet metal box magazine anyway. From now on mine will be solid with the action and will act as a action location stress member as well)

I will never casually take this gun apart again (unless I really really need to) so I generously oiled all the areas of exposed blued steel and I lubed the trigger motion parts with Break Free and greased the sear areas & the pivot pins with moly grease.

The action slid right into place and tightened right up to a solid fit, so the initial bedding was valid and seemed to go back to the same seat immediately upon re-installation. Bolts tightened to hard seats within 2 turns of initial seat, so the steel pillars had remained "up" from the last time.

While I had the stock out earlier, I re-sanded (100 grit wood paper) some of the areas of the stock where I hadn't quite got rid of all the sink marks and knit lines, then I rebuffed the sanding marks with 000 steel wool to get back to the consistent matt gray finish. I think the stock is beginning to look respectable, almost like a Winchester overmolded rubber stock as far as the muted, nicely rounded matt finish goes.

Bass Ackward
10-15-2005, 08:34 PM
Kelly,

Sorry. Wasn't reading this till now. One trick that you can do is to drill in the stock using a little bit. Drill at opposing angles. You don't need many. Glass that first using a tooth pick to work it into the holes. Don't use your barreled action and just wipe off the excess as it starts to set up like with a touge depressor. If you don't you will have to sand it flat again.

Then when you glass your action, the epoxy will bond to the other epoxy. Then I would recommend a heavier release agent like wax shoe polish. I actually like to fill up those side chambers by the action ring too for better rigitidy. Because the plastic still gives under the glass when you tighten it as long as it has a place to squirm until the pillers are encountered.

But it is tough to firm those up.

Oldfeller
10-15-2005, 11:11 PM
Yeah, a customer would be really pissed if he opened up his gun and saw his bedding sticking to his barrel instead of to his stock.

Actually, after getting over the shock value of the thing and beginning to think along the lines of "building up the steel" into a complex rib fitted super-lug (including the magazine box) with matching attached rounded seat sections -- it doesn't bother me any more. It is now bedded "better" than any other stock I have ever done before.

You can't see it from the outside and only us chickens know about it anyway. Accuracy freaks leave their actions glued permanently in place all the time, and the only difference is I KNOW I can get mine back apart by simply loosening the screws and butt-bouncing it a time or two since the plastic allowed no bonding to take place.

The screw torque clamping force on the pillars are the main attaching force, not any bonding to the plastic. Location failure and recoil movement -- it ain't a gonna happen. She is in there for "movement control" big time.

NOTHING sticks to the plastic, that is the thing. Cross drilling a bunch of hold down "gripping nibs" into the plastic to become one with the bedding might well work, but what have you really gained functionally?

Of course, to an gunsmith the answer is obvious .... a customer would be really pissed if he opened up his gun and saw his bedding sticking to his barrel instead of to his stock.

But to me, bedding is bedding no matter which side it sticks to.

Now, suppose I wanted to put this action in another stock -- I bet you I can peel that epoxy right off the action because it didn't bond very tightly to that PAM sprayed steel (I checked, a pocket knife can peel it off).

So, unlike the glued-in-place accuracy boys I can easily disassemble and recover my pieces if I need to (stock included).

Oldfeller

Oldfeller
10-15-2005, 11:38 PM
OK, now we will plan for the scope mounts. Opinions run rampant on this one, so while I am waiting for my bedding to cure I'll start a up a little informational donny-brook.

Given: for weight I am going to use separate Weaver #46 aluminum bases and a pair medium height aluminum Weaver Quad-Lock rings.

Question:

The best way to make sure the #46 bases never ever loosen is to 1) loctite them in place or 2) epoxy them in place.

Should you try to 1) pre-align the rings and the scope with the bases medium snug, then remove the rings and finish tightening up the base screws or 2) just bolt it all up and then rod lap the bottom part of the rings once everything is tight and firmly set up.

One method works better with locktite, the other with slow-setting epoxy.

Let 'er rip boys -- we are all ears on this one. Already caught me enough arrows in the back to last me for the rest of this project ..... looking for some smooth sailing to the finish line.

Oldfeller

Bass Ackward
10-16-2005, 07:10 AM
Kelly,

If you ever want to get it off, you may need to scrape it off. But throw it in the freezer overnight before you do and let it sweat first after taking it out. Sometimes that will help.

Oldfeller
10-16-2005, 05:12 PM
Since I never got any feedback from all the scope mounting experts out there, I went ahead and got me a set of Millet Angle-lock steel windage adjustable rings to use instead of the Weaver Quad rings.

Millet Angle-lock rings are very strong and are infinitely adjustable for windage mis-alignment of dual mounting block base set-ups. Plus, being steel and strong as hell they can actually bite their angle-locks down into the Weaver aluminum base material some to give them double back up on the recoil movement resistance (Weaver bases have cross bolt slots to control recoil movement and the Millet rings use that feature too).

Being all "side adjustable" now, I used red "cylindrical locking -- permanent" locktite on the screws and in the base to steel junction to make sure my Weaver bases aren't ever going anywhere.

As you check out the picture, note there is just barely enough room to put the scope cover on the front bell -- Millet steel Angle-lock rings come in a variety of heights so you can really dial in a nice low mount on a scope.

StarMetal
10-16-2005, 05:23 PM
I've had and still have some Weaver mounts on a few rifles, the ones where the rings aren't actually rings but more or the traditional Weaver clamps. Best freaken mounts and rings there are. Some of these rifle have been through several moves through various states and been mounted on their respective rifles for over 20 years, with no problems, no shift of zero's. Another good mount and ring system that fell by the way side was the Tasco system with the studs that came up through the bottom of the base and the ring shaft fit over them and locked down with two tapered oppositing screws. This mount was made up originally in Australia for heavy recoil big caliber rifles. I think Simmons brought here and Tasco bought it off them. As far as I'm concerns the best mount and rings anywhere and bar none.

Only think I don't like about Weaver clamp type rings is the scope turns as you tighten them and you have to compensate for this anticipated movement before hand. Other then that, one of the best scope mounting systems ever invented. Don't let aluminum throw off your thinking on Weaver stuff.

Joe

David R
10-16-2005, 07:34 PM
I know its too late, but all I use is RED Loctite # 272. I completly install the scope, make sure everything is right, then Hit those little base screws with the red stuff and tighten them with a nice fitting screwdriver. Works for me.

David

Oldfeller
10-18-2005, 03:10 AM
David, the blue RC/680 cylindrical part bonding loctite (and it is all under the the bases and all over the screw heads) you can't see the wet edge very well because the blue locktite hides on blued steel guns. You don't see it at all unless you go looking for it.

Red locktite sticks out pretty good when you use a lot of it, so I don't use it for permanent scope base mounting. Plus the blue permanent cylindrical part bonding locktite indicates I NEVER WANT THIS SUCKER TO MOVE, EVER.

Joe, the Weaver mounts are good but I didn't use them for two reasons. One, I needed a bastard ring height (mid-low) that Weavers don't come in. Two, it has been my experience with dual split bases they sometimes can do an unplanned off-set on you as the factory drilled holes aren't always perfect. Weaver rings can't accomodate this base error without shimming, the Millet Angle-locks can.

Lastly, if you need a little extra room for your bolt handle, why you can offset them Angle-locks in parallel to give yourself some extra handle room ...

I used my last 3 pictures up making a post on the "bad eyes" thread showing the off-set scope mounting dealing with the bolt handle (its the pics showing the end bell zoom).

45nut is going to get me some more picture space for this sticky thread so I can show how I bore-align a mounted scope and some other stuff -- until then we are just text city and not going to be posting a whole lot.

Oldfeller

Oldfeller
10-22-2005, 06:25 PM
We are now down to the short strokes -- this low cost gun is just about built.

Sling is mounted on Uncle Mike's swivels with upholstery thread stitching along each webbing joint so the sling can't ever come un-buckled at the buckles.

(now, how many of you have ever had a web/fabric rifle sling buckle slip some on you and when you went to go into sling support mode the sling was too long?)

I set up a Black & Decker Workmate in my den so I could bore site the scope across the back 40 (85 yards from den to woods). I was bore sighting up against a color post-it note speared to a tree trunk. This optical comparison is really very accurate and it is the cat's meow for quickly tuning in adjustable mounts such as the Millet Angle-locks which have to be adjusted as they are clinched tight on the Weaver #46 bases.

Pull the bolt and get the bore of the gun showing the bright orange post-it right in the middle of the rifled bore. Get the Workmate gripping the rifle stock firmly so nothing is going to squirrel around easily, then begin tightening up the Angle-lock ring bottoms alternating from side to side so the scope goes centered on the same colored dot.

Here is the advantage of the Workmate -- you have to let it sit and keep coming back to the Angle-lock clamp screws as they find some more "slack" over 15 minutes or so wait time and they have to be snugged up 3-4 times. This is OK because it gives you lots of tries at getting a perfect centering job.

At the end of the snugging process, the scope rings are tight on both the tube and on the Weaver bases and the scope is perfectly agreeing with where the bore points. Now this isn't absolutely final as rifle barrels can shoot off to the side when fired with a real projectile, but it is as good as can be done without actually firing the gun. It is a guarantee of hitting paper at 50 yards and I have seen guns that only required a click or two for final scope tuning at 100 yards.

Same trick works if you have some mechanical sights that are already aligned with the gun's actual shooting. Get the exiting sights pointed at the colored dot then adjust the scope so it sees the dot in the cross-hairs.

Now, if you ever take the rings off the aluminum Weaver bases, you will see indentations where the steel clamps have seated into the aluminum base material some -- making a really recoil-proof grip of the ring clamps to the seated bases. Your scope will measure a thou or two of reduced tube diameter under the split scope rings, so it isn't going anywhere. All that blue cylindrical locking Loctite under your Weaver bases and all over your mounting screws says that the bases aren't going anywhere either.

It is a firm, durable mounting rig that leaves your scope as the weakest link
(which your scope always is anyway).

Final specs on the gun:

Weight with scope and sling -- 7 1/2 pounds
Trigger pull -- 2 3/4 pounds
Stock -- "rubber feeling" sanded dark gray synthetic
Action -- epoxy bedded Savage/Stevens short action
Caliber -- 7mm-08 Remington
Cases -- Lake City 7.65 Nato reformed to 7mm-08
Bullet -- 7mm Soup Can (collecting orders now)

Costs:

Savage/Stevens special order Wal-Mart rifle -- $287.77 (taxes included)
Simmons Blazer scope -- 69.99
Weaver #46 bases -- 6.98
Millet Angle-lock rings -- 23.99
Uncle Mike's sling swivels -- 8.99
Allen black web/fabric sling -- 5.99
Lubricants, sandpaper and epoxy (existing) -- 2.99

Total $406.70

Not too shabby for a completely tuned new gun.
Still, a lot more than I am used to paying.

Oldfeller

Oldfeller
10-26-2005, 08:05 PM
As you know, there is a 7mm Soup Can bullet on the Group Buy page collecting 25 orders ...... (or waiting for me to get ansy and strap a JATO unit to its butt to get it moving)

you also know that collecting orders for an "off" caliber such as a 7mm is a somewhat slow thing. Sometimes verrrrrrry slow. Most shooters are content to just shoot 7mm jacketed and be done with it, they aren't in the market for a six cavity bullet mold.

But this here is a bought from scratch cast gun. It will never feel a copper jacket beyond the proof rounds that have already been down the tube.

So, what ya gonna do?

Why, grab up a cheap single cavity 135 grain LEE bore rider design and see if you can lap the nose out some to actually hit the tiny short Savage rifling.

Actually, I want to go a bit more and lap her out to just seat the flash line bulge on the bore walls themselves and HEAVILY engrave the rifling. In a tapered fashion no less. With nose roundess that meets LEE's brag (round within a thou, but they don't always do that either. Round within 1 1/2 thou seems to be more like it after the mold gets used a time or two).

So I am lapping at a target that is going to run from .280" to .283" for size at all cross section measurements, over the top of the parting line to 90 degrees out from the parting line. Nose taper included.

Here is the first rough lap -- I am about 1/2 way there.

StarMetal
10-26-2005, 09:57 PM
Kelly,

I don't know what's with your Savage/Stevens throat, but I think my Sako has it beat for being short. Notice in the picture on the loaded round that very very first band on the bullet, which is right ahead of the crimp groove, has rifling marks on it, completely across it. I put another bullet alongside it to show you that it's only seated to the second band counting from the base forward. Also notice that the base of the loaded bullet is ahead of the shoulder/neck junction.

Why you having to fatten up the nose of that Lee bullet to hit anything in your Savage?

http://www.hunt101.com/watermark.php?file=500/73857mm-08A.jpg

Joe

Oldfeller
10-27-2005, 08:52 PM
Joe, there are two separate issues here.

1) my rifling land top to land top diameter is larger than yours (mine is .2805" to .2810" diameter). This is typical for Savage style rifling, which is 8 "thin and short" land style. Not a microgroove which is a 12 "tiny and tiny" land style.

2) my throat ends (rifling origin at forced full slugging .2835 diameter starts) at 0.160" from the case mouth. You've told me before that your origin measured from your case mouth was two different numbers and I think this comes from you not measuring from a full forced throat slug but instead measuring from where Sako land top happen to hit a LEE bullet nose diameter instead.

For example: I could mistakenly tell you that (using your exact same bullet/case rig in your picture in my gun) that my throat origin "must be longer than the LEE bullet" as my rifling land tops would never even touch the nose portion at all as the LEE bullet's nose diameter is much too small for a Savage's rifling style (which is 8 very thin very short lands).

In fact, after my second round of lapping I do get nose engagement up to .160" from my case mouth, but the nose diameter on my twice lapped LEE is .282"-.283" now. And I don't think bore rider type bullets suit Savage rifling very well, a loverin would likely work much better.

I'd mislead you, simply because I wasn't checking with a full natural diameter forced lead slug. In fact, my rifling starts .160" out from the case mouth at a bore wall diameter of .2835" and my throat is a straight tapered .2875" to .2860" as it goes the .160" from the case neck to the end of the throat.

Turn that over-sized as-cast LEE checkless slug around butt first, force it in with a tapping rod (which might upset it to fill the throat and part of the neck) and see what your throat distance measures to a tightly fitted full diameter forced slug -- then we will finally be talking the same sorts of numbers at last.

When you can state your natural forced wall diameter where the rifling starts, your natural bore wall diameter slightly up from it, your rifling top to top distance at the origin and the distance from the first rifling traces to the case mouth. Then you too can know what sort of bullet will best fit your gun.

But then you get good results from your as-purchased LEE bullet, so why bother?

You lucked out -- be thankful.

Oldfeller

PS I'd guess from the pics that your lands start around 0.180" from the case mouth to your as-sized diameter -- but that is a guess assuming that my LEE bands are exactly like your LEE bands in your picture (diameters are likely different, yours are sized, mine are not, widths of sized bands change a little bit getting squished down some in the sizer).

StarMetal
10-27-2005, 08:59 PM
Kelly,

I get good results out of that Sako no matter what bullet I'm shooting, cast or jacketed. Like I said it even shoots that long for 150 gr Lyman Loverin that is even loaded down into the powder space and it shoots it damn good at 100 yards until I try to get it really blistering. Then that's where the Lee beats it to hell. I've been lucky with this rifle and you're right, that it shoots so good I never messed with slugging the throat.

Joe

David R
10-27-2005, 10:33 PM
I was shooting my Savage Stevens 200 in 308 tonight. It seems to shoot anything I put in the barrel as long as its not over 2,000 fps.

311466 sized to .310 over 20 grains of 2400. 1900 fps, good shooting mild load. Probably the best so far. Usually one inch at 50 yards.

311299 ( mine comes out 182 grains) Sized to .310 over 30 grains of 4895....1925 fps, good shooting, kinda hard kicking.

31141 sized .310 over 30 grains 4895, 1850 fps high SD, but decent groups. Low velocity shots show on the target.

C314-1502R group buy mold sized to .310 over 11 grains Red Dot 1585 fps. Great plinker and silly wet load. Read Economy.

All shoot around 1.5" at 50 yards.

since I ran 100 or so condoms through it, it seems to shoot better. I think it need a little shmoozing inside the barrel. Leading is not a problem.

David

Oldfeller
10-29-2005, 11:21 AM
Joe, here is the final fit of my lapped LEE nose. I screwed up and had to try a couple of times to get the correct final fit that would allow me to unload a round and still get good engraving at the loading location without pushing back too much.

Oldfeller

StarMetal
10-29-2005, 11:26 AM
Kelly,

That made that Lee bullet look alot less pointy, looks good though. I can't wait for you to shoot it.

Joe

Oldfeller
10-29-2005, 06:43 PM
Bullet looks less pointy because I used a flat tipped lubrisizer return punch on it, so it has a little tiny meplat on the end of it now. (you can see this better on the next post down below this one)

===============================================

Here is my long brass lap rod set up for opening whole skidoodles of sizer dies at the same time. The rod is actually about 3 times longer than what is shown, there is a lot of room to hold lap grit and you stroke the dies the entire length of the tight section of the split paper shimmed rod. I invented this when I was doing all the 6.5 sizer dies for everybody as it was the quickest way to open up hard Lyman sizer die material while keeping size roundness and taper within a half-thou.

You set the paper, coat the lap, take 10 strokes on all the dies, reset the paper, coat the lap take 10 strokes on all the dies, etc etc etc. Each turn you move a die from the front of the line to the back of the line, this way the total amount removed stays relatively even across the group.

It was a right fine time killer, it was. Effective, although somebody with a Sunnen hone can sure do them a whole lot quicker.

Did you know that hard water dropped WW metal snaps back .0005" when it exits the sizer die? Air cooled doesn't pop back as much, arguably only a tenth (but that's within measurement error on soft lead so you can't prove it either way). Water dropped is measurable though and it pops back .0005".

My current 7mm sizer die needs to come out to .2865" effective, which means a .2860" hole diameter. I will be taking off around .0005" of steel which will not take me very long at all. This time I will actually push a bullet through the sizer die to get the effective bullet resize diameter.

Why a 1/2" drill? 550 rpm is about right for this sort of stuff -- your tactile hand feel of the torque resistance is part of your control system. As the twist effect on the die goes down the steel is about gone for that particular paper adjustment.

Steel disappears at a 3-1 ratio approximately compared to the softer copper material, with the aluminum oxide grit itself breaking down very quickly into a fine abrasive dust paste. I do it over the sink and I spray away the lap debris using the little sprayer gizmo on the sink.

My wife loves all the noise and the black mess, that's why she is so dead-set against me doing any more mold deals out of the house.

That and all the moly powder that I like to use ....

Oldfeller

Oldfeller
10-29-2005, 08:24 PM
Ah, the glorious feeling of success ......

A LEE bullet that both fits the bore/rifling and seats/fills the throat up exactly all at the same time. A well executed blend of selective mold lapping and lubricizer die lapping that only took most of a man week of hobby time to execute correctly (plus a couple of goofs & resets).

Complete with a cute little meplat no less.

(don't forget to click on the pictures, they all will expand 2-3x you know)

35remington
10-31-2005, 09:56 PM
Oldfeller, I'm weakening. When it comes to guns it don't take much, and I like Savages, so I'm gonna get my butt down to Wallyworld and take a look at one of these, maybe in 7-08 (got one already, a Remington) or a .308. What barrel length is your 7-08? Not sure from your posts if it is a 20" or a 22".

I have two Savages already, and I can say I like 'em, so for another 280 bucks after tax I think I could take another one home. I needed a winter project anyway, and this was the inspiration I needed.

David R
10-31-2005, 10:04 PM
I bought my 308 at wally world, I love it. Its a shooter.

Someday I'm gonna replace that cheesey plastic stock, but it works fine for now.

David

Oldfeller
10-31-2005, 10:46 PM
Barrel is 22" long to BATF standards (very start of the chamber) but it is 20 inches measured to the start of the nut which is what my caveman gut says "this is barrel -- rest is action -- Ug!"

Sand that plastic stock then rub it good with steel wool and then rub it with a small amount of oil on a rag to darken it up some. It is that light gray color that is what looks cheesy, a very dark matt gray looks pretty good.

Now, if Jumptrap gets us a Savage/Stevens model 200 in 358 Winchester, I'd go back to Wally World in a shot to pick one up.

Oldfeller

35remington
11-01-2005, 12:39 AM
Oh, don't tell me they make it in .358 too. I gotta have one of those.

Oldfeller
11-01-2005, 07:28 AM
IF IF Jumptrap is successful selling Savage the idea of special run guns.

Oldfeller

Jumptrap
11-01-2005, 02:22 PM
I haven't and probably won't approach Savage personally. Hell, I'm a nobody and would never get past the receptionist bimbo that guards the front lobby.

I'd like to have a .358, but even more I want a new bolt action 30-30.

Something else that would be neat is a case made by just shoving the shoulder back on a 308 case to give a 30-30 length neck ...case capacity should about what a 30-30 has. Nothing says this case couldn't be necked up and down to suit whatever diameter flipped your switch. I don't see what a 308 sizer couldn't be shortened by a guy with a lathe like Buckshot so the case could be forced in deeper to move the shoulder back and lengthen the neck...no damned high dollar custom dies needed. If you wanted a .24, 26, .28, .30 or a 35....just do this shortening to standard .243, 260, 7-08, 308 or 358 dies.

Any standard rifle could be converted just by setting the barrel back and rechambering. Nothing else changes...magazine length, feed ramp angles....nothing. The should goes back giving the desried longer neck and also reduces internal powder capacity to a more desired 25-30 grain volume.

See there, I just invented a whole new series of cast bullet cartridges and my fat ass never left the seat of my computer console. HAR! Just remember you read it here first..hehehehe!

StarMetal
11-01-2005, 02:35 PM
Well I'll do it and I did do it sort of. I called Savage and the person I needed to speak to was out for lunch and I left a message explaining our needs and to please return the call and we would discuss it.

Joe

Scrounger
11-01-2005, 04:19 PM
Already been done, Jump. By the Cast Bullet Benchrest people, I think. It's called a "Long-necked .30 Herret".

StarMetal
11-01-2005, 04:29 PM
Okay, Savage got back with me. First let me say that guy that would handle this is out of town for couple weeks, but I did get some information. To be feasible, and they said it was, it has to be 200 or more rifles. So fellows start signing up. If we get that much interest I'll call the gentleman in charge of this and get more specific details and prices.

I guess just reply here and I'll record your name and keep count.

Joe

Oldfeller
11-01-2005, 04:44 PM
Now is the time need we call our Wal-Mart buyer, the one who handles Savage guns. Before we call him, we need the specific Savage part number for the special run gun.

Joe -- did the Savage man issue a Savage/Stevens part number designation for the gun yet? We need to know exactly what part # to order.

Did they tell you a cost? (details, the devil is always in the details)

The goal here is to get Wal-Mart to agree to take the orders for the Savage/Stevens part # la-de-da for us. Wal-Mart likes selling things, so they may do it for us (their normal cheap mark-up of course). They would do it a whole lot quicker with a Savage part number to reference to as that would make it a no-brainer "add a part number to the system" type of thing.

A natural outcome of this sort of activity may be Savage actually adding a "Classic" model to their line up temporarily. Which would they be more likely to add -- 358 Winchester or a .350 Remington Magum ??

(kicking the **** out my shoulder again)

Oldfeller

Jumptrap
11-01-2005, 04:52 PM
Already been done, Jump. By the Cast Bullet Benchrest people, I think. It's called a "Long-necked .30 Herret".

Scrounger,

Wonder where I'd have to look for a drawing for this cartridge or what one of the CBA issues might have an article on it? Perhaps somebody already has a reamer for it. This cartridge is such a 'no brainer' I can't believe none of US has tried it yet.

StarMetal
11-01-2005, 06:25 PM
Geez Kellly,

I said it would be a few weeks till I talked to "the" man in charge of doing such a deal as Savage. But I can't you right now it ain't going to fly...you're the only one that replied, we need 200 and over..so give it up boys. Might be easier talking Midway into makeing 358 barrels for the Savage/Stevens.

Joe

Scrounger
11-01-2005, 06:25 PM
I can't find any data on that version but you should should be able to find chamber specs on the .30 Herrett easily enough. Just imagine a longer neck. [smilie=l: I definitely remember talking about this to someone on the 'net, probably on the old Shooters Board. Clymer or any reamer maker has most likely heard of it or made one. A phone call can answer that.

StarMetal
11-01-2005, 06:37 PM
Jumptrap

There are two wildcat cartridges out there that might interest you. One is the 308x1.5 and the other is 308x1.75. There are dies and stuff availiable for them.

Joe

David R
11-01-2005, 06:56 PM
Just trim the die and the barrel of your already bought savage 200. Shorten the brass, Whaddyathink?

"SF308" Short Fat 308

DXS308 David Xtra Short 308

CB308 Cast Boolit 308

DSSM308 Davids super short match 308

Mini Thirty.......Oops, that one is already taken.

Stubby Thirty Itty Bitty 308

My dad has a lathe, its possible for me to do this.....Hmmm

If you do decide to come up with a 358, I'm in. I am sure I have time to save up for it. $268.00 Plus tax? :)

Oldfeller
11-01-2005, 07:42 PM
Joe, you might want to go over to group buys and check out the immediate response to your offer ......

<g>

Now is the hour .......

grumble
11-01-2005, 08:11 PM
Joe, who's running the 'program' for this buy? You, Jump, or Oldfeller?

I'll probably be in for one (in 358 Win and Roosky Shortski) if thigs don't get too esoteric.

Jumptrap
11-01-2005, 08:24 PM
Jumptrap

There are two wildcat cartridges out there that might interest you. One is the 308x1.5 and the other is 308x1.75. There are dies and stuff availiable for them.

Joe

Joe,

I am aware of those beasties..neither has a neck as long as I am interested in. Just give me a 308 with the shoulder shoved back far enough to make a long neck and I'd be happy....but if i were going to sit down and figure it all out, I shove the should back far enough to allow 30 grains capacity of 4895 to the base of the neck, then the neck would be equal to the 30-30's length and the excess trimmed off.

I shot a .30 herret a long time ago....should have kept a case for reference...can't even picture it in my mind now.

Scrounger
11-01-2005, 08:45 PM
Check this one out: http://www.bellmtcs.com/store/index.php?cid=106

StarMetal
11-01-2005, 09:06 PM
Grumble,

I reckon I'll honcho it.

Jumptrap

You could have the reamer made to cut to the neck out longer on those two cartridges I mentioned.

I have a 30 Herrett in my collection, I'll have to take a pic of it along some other cases like 30-30.

Joe

Oldfeller
11-01-2005, 11:19 PM
<g>

You got the best man for the job, Grumble. Joe will do just fine as Honcho for our first ever group custom-run rifle purchase.

We will need to help him get the good word out to all of gun-dom though -- 200 rifles will require a little leg work posting on other lists from all of us to scare up that many orders, it's only 60 thousand dollars worth of guns after all.

Other than that - what's next, Herr General?

StarMetal
11-01-2005, 11:31 PM
Oldfeller

You mean Generale Starmetal, or Comandare Starmetal....as in Carcano...as in Italiano!!!!!

Joe

Dye
11-02-2005, 12:04 AM
Jumptrap
If you want a couple of the 30 Herrett and the 35 Herrett cases P.M me your mailing address and I will send them to you.

Be carefull Dye

bravokilo
11-02-2005, 02:24 AM
I call it a .308X1 5/8". I picked up a cheap set of .308 dies and chucked them up in a lathe and trimmed them back to make .308X1.5". When I trimmed the cases I left them an 1/8" longer. I made these up months ago. Plenty of neck length! I even have a Rem 788 that has generously donated it's body to science. The single stack mag should take care of any feeding problems with large flat noses. What's holding the project up is I'm not sure what throat dimensions to specify for the reamer. I was going to get the opinion of Mr Harris as he has probably played with this kind of thing more than anybody. No problem, he hangs out at the "Load Your Own" forum. Click on the proper link.....and it's GONE!!! I don't know where to find him. As you can see I want a real 30/30 neck, real thin, so they will have to be turned. I even figured on making it a switch barrel, to be able to try different rifling forms (veerrry easy to do with the Savage). Just my thoughts on the matter!

Almost forgot, I figured the best thing to use for cases would be the old BR basic brass (with the small primer pocket). Didn't think I would ever find any but fortune smiled on me and I picked up a bag of 50 at a gun show!!

BK

Oldfeller
11-11-2005, 03:21 AM
Having never coaxed any new guns through their infancy, this was a bit of a surprise to me. There is a hell of a inverted burr left over from lathe crowning that poked itself out after shooting some nice soft lead slugs.

http://photos.gunloads.com/images/Oldfeller/muzzle.jpg

I'm used to mil-surps requiring new crowns, so this was not something that couldn't be instantly fixed (grinding rig is already set up and ready to go). Note that you can start medium and progress to fine 600 grit wet or dry and get a mirror like crown very quickly with this rig.

http://photos.gunloads.com/images/Oldfeller/paperball.jpg

Here is the recrowning tool, a 1.25" diameter round grinding ball carrying wet or dry paper held in place with a rubber band ....

http://photos.gunloads.com/images/Oldfeller/roughcrown.jpg

and here is the rough ground (320 grit) crown seat.

http://photos.gunloads.com/images/Oldfeller/mirrorcrown.jpg

and here is the fully polished (600 grit) crown after spot bluing.

Now I mentioned before that the bore was a little tight feeling with shades of a virgin rough feel to it. I did not think it would lead if pre-treated and this was the case, it shot well and cleaned with no signs of lead flakes or any signs of streaking in the bore.

http://photos.gunloads.com/images/Oldfeller/3inchesdownbore.jpg

I am still very pleased with the Savage/Stevens, the trigger is quite nice for a reworked factory trigger (as I shoot it more it may be getting lighter, so I am glad I set it where I did, rather "more" than "totally less").

Groups are quite good, at 1.5 inches at 100 yards for 14 grains of 2400 behind the nose modified LEE slug. This is not shabby shooting for me, anyway. I can only wait for the 7mm Soup Can to fill out its order so we can see what that throat filling loverin style slug can do.

So far I have not seen any need to lap this gun at all, neither hand nor other methods.

One trick I did do that is worth mentioning is pre-treating, to start out a totally stripped clean bore for lead bullet use I do coat it with LEE liquid alox and let the stuff dry COMPLETELY in place before starting to shoot lead for the very first time. This is a simple trick I find to be very worthwhile.

Theory is that the metal finish gets filled up with the hardened bullet lube, the surplus bullet lube gets stuck off flat to the top of the grain by the passing bullet & the scraping gas check action leaving a smooth hardened lube surface behind. Then there really isn't anyplace for the leading to stick to or get started from. It's like skating on ice, nothing to get a purchase on for any leading trouble to ever get started on you.

Sure feels better after doing this trick anyway.

Bret4207
11-30-2005, 08:52 AM
Kelly- Interesting idea with the Lee Liquid Frog Snot in the barrel. I wonder how it would work in rough/pitted barrels. I'm thinking mil-surps here. I'd think it would fill in the pitts in a chemically cleaned barrel, and since it can't compress, would smooth the boolits way. Nice idea.

Oldfeller
02-04-2006, 12:22 PM
Yeah, it is a good idea filling the finish irregularities with the LEE liquid frog snot -- it works pretty durn good to keep that old debble leading away. Since I am a firm believer in not messing with good shooting "steady state" barrels it helps get a barrel to that wonderful magical state just about instantly.

Indeed, reflecting over the last couple of years I haven't had leading as an issue in any type of rifle type shooting, period. The only real gun cleaning I have done was caused by some powder residue build up issues and the strong majority of that scrubbing was caused by IMR 5010 surplus powder.

==========================================

Addtion to the Stevens rifle saga -- second trigger re-work

After buying and tuning a 30-06 Accutrigger Savage the re-worked trigger on the Stevens 200 didn't seem light enough any more. So I re-read the attachments on trigger work that are listed way on up in this thread and I went and bought me some .032" diameter stainless piano wire from a craft shop.

That torsion bar thingy is incredibly easy to duplicate, just 3 very simple bends and two snips with the wire cutters. Using .032" wire you can put a good big preload on the torsion bar (better for the safety aspects of maintaining positive engagement travel) but the result is a much lighter trigger back pressure.

Now, of all my rifles the triggers would be ranked like this:

6.5x55 Swede with Timney aftermarket trigger set very low

30.06 Savage bullbarrel with reworked Accutrigger

8mm Yugo 1924 Mausers with Timney aftermarkets set medium low (plural)

7mm-08 Savage with reworked standard trigger

Swiss K-51 straight pull


It is worth noting that when you get a Savage trigger of either type lightened up significantly the "side to side" clearances in the trigger mechanism become more obvious to the eye and to the feel. It does not seem to make any difference to the let-off or the trigger pull or the "crispness" and it seems to have no safety implications, so I can live with the extra side to side trigger slop.

I also now give more respect to Timney aftermarket triggers. Back when I bought them they only cost $30 and they were the cheapest thing around. You get pretty good tuning them over the years and they seem to get better with use -- excellent triggers even at today's higher prices.

Oldfeller

David R
02-04-2006, 10:32 PM
I bought an accutrigger from Ebay for $33.00 shipped. I have not installed it yet. I was told they are adjustable, but I see no adjustment. I did the piano wire thing, it works great. I have a really nice trigger now, so I hope the accutrigger is an improvment. I will go to the savage site and see if there are any instructions on how to adjust.

I also traded my synthetic stock for a wood one. Not here yet. Both of these should make a nicer looking and hopefully still good shooting gun.

Last week I got just over an inch at 100 yards with a 311644 in front of 44 grains of WC860. I tried many over all lengths, but 2.725 seems to be "It". Now I am going to try 45, 46, 47.......... of WC 860 to see if there is a sweet spot.

I also got well under an inch at 50 yards with the same charge and the 31141 group buy mold.

All groups are 10 shots.

Its just a good shooting gun.

David

David R
02-05-2006, 01:35 PM
OK, I put in the accutrigger last night. It does fit the gun except the spring on the back would need to be cut. I tested my home done trigger. 24 to 32 ounces. Put in the accutrigger and it was around 40. Bummer. If I clean up the sear on the accutrigger with some 1200 like I did the factory trigger it might come in the same. I am going to try this because it would be a safer trigger.

It seems they made the accutrigger like I modafied my factory triggeer. I soldered an .008" feeler guage to the top of the trigger to get rid of the bunch O creep. This makes it have less of a purchase for the sear, but also makes for a much lighter trigger with no creep.

I can bang my gun around all I want with out it going off, but the accutrigger would totally omit an accidental discharge.

NO I don't hunt with this gun, target only.

David

Oldfeller
07-28-2006, 09:25 PM
Having done both a standard savage and an accutrigger savage to a light pull weight, I like the mechanical feel of the normal savage trigger (once modified) better as it isn't as loosey-goosey side to side, but I trust the accutrigger to be safer at those lighter than stock pull weights as the safey lever works the same at any and all spring pressures.

You got to pull that accutrigger center lever back in to arm the trigger mechanism -- that's a real safety improvement especially if you have lightened things up a lot.

Oldfeller

Char-Gar
07-29-2006, 08:27 PM
I bought a Savage short action bolt action in .308 four years ago. I adjusted the factory trigger to about 3.5 lbs and used red Locktite to keep it in adjustment. I have bounched, and knocked the butt every which way and it won't jar loose. Good safe trigger.

I noticed way up the thread, so references of ways to improve the plastic hollow foreend stocks. Anybody have and direction to sites on that subject?

obssd1958
07-30-2006, 01:13 AM
Chargar,

Just happen to have read this last night. Haven't tried it, but it looks promising for my .458 WM project :) and might be what you are looking for.

http://www.savageshooters.net/Pages/Articles/SynthStockMods.html

Don

DLCTEX
11-11-2006, 11:57 PM
I was told at Wal-Mart that their lay-away program is no longer available. Too bad. Dale:(

Four Fingers of Death
11-12-2006, 02:34 AM
I am after a 243. Decisions, decisions. Like the Rugersm little bit dearer, butttt.

leftiye
01-20-2007, 09:49 PM
Accidental discharges are the result of improper/ insufficient engagement more that light trigger pull. I run a Remington match trigger on my .300 Win mag. (Elk banger) - Rem 700 with a titanium firing pin, and Wolfe firing pin spring (sound like a match setup?) Never a bit of trouble, never has fired on its own. Shilen barrel, Leupold 4.5 to 14, MacMillan fiberglass stock. Oh don't forget to have a good muzzle brake, makes it into a fun to shoot rifle!

The trick is, you don't beat hell out of your rifle while it is in the stock to see if it'll let off: you take the action out of the stock (already out to tune the trigger duh) and put a piece of 2X4 on a cement floor and bang the rear of the action (sans scope) on this. Creates shock like you dropped it off of a cliff!. I doubt that sideways or forward blows have the same potential to release the trigger that rearward ones do, as inertia of the trigger itself to the rear is probably the weak spot. If it lets off, you increase the trigger to sear contact depth. Iwon't have a gun with a poo poo trigger (good technical trigger) as with many gun nuts it get fixed shortly after acquisition of the firearm. Cant shoot a 10 lb. trigger straight noways.

gregg
02-02-2007, 06:23 PM
Last weekend bought a Stevens 200 in 223 at the Sportsman Warehouse.
Had a $259 tag on it and they had $10 slip for the sportsman show in town. So it came to $249 plus tax. Call it $250 plus tax.
Just a heads up to you all. Bought a Marlin Guild Gun in SS there last year. Feb. 14 2006 for If I rember right $510 plus tax. Once again gunshow and $10 off slip again.

Buckshot
02-05-2007, 02:09 PM
...............Locally Big 5 Shorting goods has a couple Savge STevens but they're marked at $329. One is a 270 (excuse me, yech!) and I don't know what the other was as the tag was turned around and I didn't have time to hunt someone up to ask :-)

.................Buckshot