9mm leading issues

[texaswoodworker]

I recently bought a Taurus 92AF and I absolutely cannot get it to shoot cast bullets. They feed perfectly fine but leave the entire length of the barrel looking like a sewer.

The bore is large. Its .357. Luckily my mold casts way oversize so I size the bullets down to .358. The brass slightly bulges, but there are no feeding issues so that's fine.

I have tried light and moderate loads of red dot and I've tried Lee tumble lube and my own moly lube I've use in my rifles with good results. None of it solved the issue.

I'm using the LEE TC bullet with the lube grove. The gun shoots fine and is accurate with FMJ, but I'd like to get this bullet to work. Any suggestions?

[silverjay]

I water drop 50/50 for my nine's. That was the last change I made when I got rid of the leading. Many don't do that but it works for me. I size to .358 as well with carnauba red lube.

[bhn22]

Try a slower powder and see if it helps.

[bstone5]

Size to fit and powder coat the bullets a cola can gas check will also help.

[mnewcomb59]

Maybe your resizing/decapper die is resizing your cases too small. This can mean your base band on your bullet is doing some serious stretching on the brass, and the brass is squeezing the base down.

Pull some loaded rounds and check if they're still .358 on the base band.

If not, you can get a larger powder-through expander plug made for 38 S&W that pre-stretches the brass for your bullet so that it seats easier. Or get a looser resizer die.

You could also try decapping without resizing (try a 40 or 45 acp resize/decap die), then resize in a Lee factory crimp die before loading, then crimp on the bullet seater and skip the factory crimp die for the loaded round.

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

Pull a bullet from a loaded round, and measure it. Some expanders leave the inside case diameter so small that they will slightly swage down a soft bullet.

[HeavyMetal]

We need more info, and I suspect your using a fast powder behind these? Maybe low end of the charge range?

In the end you may change powder or bump the charge size.

You mentioned nothing about alloy, what are you using? Clip on WW metal contains some Antimony and will respond well to quenching as they come out of the mold.

[1johnlb]

I had a similar problem with my nine and came to the conclusion the new barrel was excessively rough. It looked like a sewer pipe after every couple shots,so I hand lapped it with steel wool. Solved my problem and helped accuracy.

[kryogen]

Measure a pulled round. My loads were keyholing before.
i used a 38 special lee powder die with a bolt in it to prevent the plug from raising to fit the 9mm cases to expand only and now my boolits measure the same in and out. Now they shoot perfect.

if you are expanding with a 9mm expander this is your problem. You need a larger expander for 357 or 358 boolits.

If you have a dillon press and want to keep the powder check station then just buy the mr bulletfeeder custom expander.

[texaswoodworker]

I unfortunately can't find a slower powder. Red Dot's all I can get around here.

I've tried two alloys. A somewhat soft one that should have been around 12 BHN and a hard cast alloy I used in my 30-06 at 1800 fps with a BHN of 18 or so.

I'll measure a pulled bullet later tonight.

The bullet is not a gas check Design, and I don't have the tools to make the plain base caps. Powder coating is something I've been wanting to try, so I may do that. Is lube still nessessary?

If all else fails, I could see about lapping the barrel.

[GabbyM]

Pull a bullet from a loaded round, and measure it. Some expanders leave the inside case diameter so small that they will slightly swage down a soft bullet.

There you go.

Does not matter if it's "soft". A 9mm case is way stronger than it takes to swag down 2/6 magnum alloy. I've done it. If you are bulging the case with a bullet seating you are way far past a big mess. Bullets either cast or jacketed have no place in case expansion. 9mm expanders on common die sets do not properly fit anything but shallow seating round nose bullets. They do not expand deep enough. Add to that many brands of 9mm brass are totally unsuitable for use in deep seating bullets. Case walls taper very thick. The Lee and Saeco 122 TC seat deep like the Lyman 401 bullet. The Lyman M die will expand the case deep enough to make it all work.

Dillon expander for 9mm are junk and do not work for any lead bullets. Dillon told me to push the expander deeper. DUH. There 38 Special expanders and most others do not run deep enough for Wad Cutter bullets ether.

[tazman]

I had trouble getting groups with the barrel in my PT92 but didn't have a leading problem. I switched out the barrel for a Beretta M9 barrel(a drop in replacement). That cured everything. Now I get great groups, no leading, and it will feed anything except short semiwadcutters.

[kryogen]

Before you waste time doing anything else, just measure the base of a pulled bullet vs a fresh sized one. Unless you use a larger expander, your base will be too small, like 355-356 and thats why you have issues.

fix that, then, if your boolit is 358 in and out, then look somewhere else.
oh and I hope that you are actually taking micrometer measurements not caliper?

[jeepyj]

Watching with interest for a friend who has a similar problem with his 9 in one of his Smiths.
Jeepyj

[Ola]

One thing to look for (I learned this the hard way): make sure that you do NOT Crimp the case mouth excessively when seating the oversized bullet. If you do, the case mouth will shave a little lead ring off the bullet. That ring may be so thin you won't notice it, but it is there in front of the case mouth.

When the round is fired, the bullet deposits that little lead ring in the barrel and when you shoot more rounds, like 50, the leading is unbelievable.

To AVOID this for sure, first seat the bullet, then crimp. SEPARATE!

[texaswoodworker]

The case is not sizing down the bullet. It stays the same. I tried sticking a .357 mag expander in my 9mm die, and it sizes it deep enough to mostly get rid of the bulging issue. The bullet seats extremely easily, so I'll give it a light crimp just to be safe.

I always seat and crimp separately, and try to crimp as lightly as I can. The 9mm that leaded the barrel did not have a crimp at all.

[Ola]

Ok. How about the barrel? Is it absolutely clean? No residue of jacket material? In pistols it is not a common problem but cleaning it all out may be the solution to leading.

That is also something I had to learn the hard way. When I started casting 9mm pistol was the first one. I had shot more than 10 000 rounds (20 000? who knows..) of jacketed through my pistol so there was some jacket material in the barrel that collected the lead. Oh those were hard times! Solving problem after problem..

[texaswoodworker]

Ok. How about the barrel? Is it absolutely clean? No residue of jacket material? In pistols it is not a common problem but cleaning it all out may be the solution to leading.

That is also something I had to learn the hard way. When I started casting 9mm pistol was the first one. I had shot more than 10 000 rounds (20 000? who knows..) of jacketed through my pistol so there was some jacket material in the barrel that collected the lead. Oh those were hard times! Solving problem after problem..

The barrel is new. Other than the proofing rounds, it had never had jacketed bullets run through it.

[Fluxed]

I'd think about this or making your own:

http://www.davidtubb.com/final-finish-bullet-kits/finalfinish-bulletkit-38

[oldfart1956]

I feel your pain brother. Having the same issue with a Rock Island 1911/9mm. and I'm ready to throw in the towel. Already using every tip listed in the forum short of powder coating. Several different powders, 2 different molds, .38s&w expander, velocity from not working the action to 1275fps. and every alloy except straight lino. Running the dia. from as big as the chamber will allow down to .356. Air cooled, water dropped...been there done that. No crimp, light crimp, roll crimp and FCD. Felix lube, Bens Red, Bens tumble lube, Lee alox and combinations of all the above. I have noted a bit of roughness on the throat which may be a factor. Tried a bit of polishing there. I picked up 3K of plated bullets this past weekend for 8 cents each. I can't cast/size/lube that cheap. I'll run them thru and see if it polishes up the throat a bit and mebbe try again. I load lead for 7 other calibers without issue. Audie...the Oldfart..

[1johnlb]

Look down the cleaned barrel without oil. Does it have a mirror shine or just a dull reflection? I noticed my rough barrel when I ran the tissue type patches through the bore and it was leaving fine stands of lint.

I used a folded close hanger with a piece of 0000 steelwool, being sure that the hanger couldn't contact the bore, coated with turtle wax buffing compound, chucked in a drill and very carefully bringing the bore to a high luster shine. Finishing with lapping it from muzzle to breach, following the rifling.
Use this at your own risk only after coming to a point of no doubt, it's to rough.

[edctexas]

I shoot 9mm mostly in Poly rifled barrels. My barrel needs a larger boolit like yours. I powder coat over 0.3575 sized boolits. Most are around 0.359 in dia. I could never get Red Dot to work, but some guys can use RD with harder boolits. Mine are around 10BHN. HP-38 (W231) and Blue Dot work in my gun. The WWII luger I have wants the smaller boolit and does not need a slower powder like Green Dot, HP-38, or Blue Dot. In my H&K 9 the Blue Dot is a tad too slow.
It seems like in 9mm, you need boolit fit, boolit hardness, and powder burn rate to get good performance with no leading.

Ed C

[Vulcan Bob]

I'm using the Lyman four die "M" set with a .358" expander ball. For the bullet a RCBS 9mm-124-CN, at 130gr with COWW alloy, sized to .358" using SPG lube, 5.0gr of Power Pistol and CCI 500 primer with a taper crimp. With a ten shot average of 1,111 fps (S&W 39) this load gives good accuracy and function in four 9mm's, a RIA Tactical, Browning Hi Power, S&W 39 and a S&W full size M&P with no bore leading in any of them. This worked out as I wanted one load for all four 9's. I give a lot of credit for this to the Lyman "M" expander die.

[MtGun44]

Amazing. My first shot - wwt alloy, Lee 356-120 TC sized to .357 (later .358 due to getting more 9mms with
big groove diams) with NRA 50-50 lube, in any brass, with std 9mm dies, taper crimped as a separate operation using
Vectran SP8 powder is reasonably accurate and will not lead in any of my 9mms (Browning, Sig, Star, Astra,
Walther, Kel-Tek). Guess you gotta hold your mouth right.

[1johnlb]

I bet that's it, he ain't holedenitrite

134198

[kryogen]

I feel your pain brother. Having the same issue with a Rock Island 1911/9mm. and I'm ready to throw in the towel. Already using every tip listed in the forum short of powder coating. Several different powders, 2 different molds, .38s&w expander, velocity from not working the action to 1275fps. and every alloy except straight lino. Running the dia. from as big as the chamber will allow down to .356. Air cooled, water dropped...been there done that. No crimp, light crimp, roll crimp and FCD. Felix lube, Bens Red, Bens tumble lube, Lee alox and combinations of all the above. I have noted a bit of roughness on the throat which may be a factor. Tried a bit of polishing there. I picked up 3K of plated bullets this past weekend for 8 cents each. I can't cast/size/lube that cheap. I'll run them thru and see if it polishes up the throat a bit and mebbe try again. I load lead for 7 other calibers without issue. Audie...the Oldfart..

I seem to be having this issue with 9mm also, cant get it to work yet.

[Dpmsman]

I just purchased a surplus Beretta 92s with a new barrel and have the same issue. Shoots jacketed great but super inaccurate with plated and terrable leading with coww cast boolit sized to .358. Even tried PC with no luck. Using a lee 124gr TL rn boolit.

[BenW]

Try a softer alloy, around 10bhn. I honestly don't think that's what it is, but sometimes going softer in low charges makes up for bad barrel geometry.

Did you slug your barrel, or do a cast? A cast may show a restriction somewhere (probably early in your case) in the barrel.

[captaint]

With a very tight patch, we should be able to feel roughness in the barrel, if it's there. That said, I had to go to straight WW alloy and size .358 to make mine work. Now, both the Dan Wesson and the Beretta 92 will both go all day with clean barrels. Been using the LBT Soft Blue lube, for what that's worth.

[dakotashooter2]

Hard lube or soft? Are you finding lube on fired bullets? If so you might have to soften it up to get it to perform.