Crimp & Sizing Tests

[cbrick]

Here's some crimp and sizing testing to ponder on. I ran these tests over the chrono a couple of years ago with some surprising results.

I omitted the charge from the load data, these rounds were fired in an FA and if someone decided to try this load in their S&W or Colt, well . . . It is an over book load so I'll leave it out. Its safe in the FA and surprisingly accurate.

Freedom Arms 357 Mag 9”
RCBS 180 GC Silhouette @ 192 gr. (WW+ 3% tin, HT @ 18 BHN) Sized .357"
gr. H-110
Winchester brass, length trimmed, not chamfered or deburred, primer pockets uniformed, flash hole uniformed.
CCI 550 primer. Primers set with a device to seat all primers with equal pressure and a slight crush.

Temp 70 F - Humidity 38% - Elevation 1350 ft.

All chrono tests 10 shots. Grouped at 150 meters, Burris 12X scoped from the bench. All rounds fired in the same session. No discernable difference in grouping between all 5 loads. All bullets, primers, powder and brass are from the same lot numbers for all loads.

1> My normal profile crimp, second firing of WW brass, Carbide die sized, slight bell
E.S. 30
A.V. 1518
S.D. 9

2> Roll crimp, second firing of WW brass, Carbide die sized, slight bell
E.S. 30
A.V. 1520
S.D. 9

3> No crimp, second firing of WW brass, Carbide die sized, very slight bell
E.S. 30
A.V. 1528
S.D. 9

4> Light profile crimp, virgin WW brass, not sized, not expanded, slight bell only
E.S. 26
A.V. 1532
S.D. 8

5> My normal profile crimp, virgin WW brass, not sized, not expanded, slight bell only
E.S. 26
A.V. 1536
S.D. 8

Rick

[Buckshot]

...............Just goes to show how important the case's grip on the boolit is. With #4 & #5 being unsized/unfired brass, showing the highest velocity and tightest stats seems to show a REALLY tight grip is best. A good case grip IS required, and any number of tests prove it to be so, but not in all instances as a too tight casemouth will deform a softer slug.

All fifty rounds fired scored an avrg vel of 1526.8 fps and I suspect further averageing of the highest and lowest recorded velocities would follow suit, and that there isn't any real life statistical difference between the 5 groups.

................Buckshot

[44man]

No surprise at all. I have made the same tests and if you have read every post I answered on the jubject, you will always see me say that the crimp will not help either accuracy or burn rate. All that is needed is enough to hold a boolit under recoil and in a single shot, no crimp is needed.
Proper case tension is what is needed for slow powders. The faster the burn rate, the less effect case tension will have.
Large capacity brass also needs better tension.
The more even each case's tension is to all the rest, the better the accuracy will be.
The heavier the boolit/bullet, the less effect it has on burn rate
too.
Never spoil a boolit with too much tension. A looser fit can still give good accuracy as long as every piece of brass holds with the same tension. Tighter brass will raise velocity.
It appears somewhere around the middle of the road works best, not too tight or loose.
In revolvers, the brass itself is the cause of a lot of fliers and poor groups and the older and more times the brass is shot, the more varied the groups will get.
With the price of brass, I accept it now! :-?

[Morgan Astorbilt]

If you'll notice, the SD's are lower when the bullets are shot as-cast without sizing, as they normally are in schuetzen shooting. This may be as important as the crimp pressure. Schuetzen bullets, if not breech seated, are just slipped into the cases without crimping. This of course, itn't practical with most other forms of shooting cast bullets.
Morgan

[VTDW]

I also have found that crimp makes no difference in accuracy so I have gone to this method. Much faster than using a crimp die.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v354/vtdw1/Silly%20Stuff/HPIM1011.jpg

[runfiverun]

vtdw
so thats how you re-load without dies.
man everybody is looking to save a buck. lol

[44man]

Show us how you change primers! :bigsmyl2:

[Morgan Astorbilt]

You're gonna make your dentist very happy(or wealthy)!:>)
Morgan

[cbrick]

First, Morgan, ALL bullets in this test WERE sized .357", it was the brass that was not sized. The test was done in a Freedom Arms revolver and .358" boolits would not fit the throats. In fact you couldn't even chamber .358"+ rounds because the front driving band won't go in the throats.

44man, what I found surprising was the difference in the brass between sized and not sized. It’s well known that consistency in bullet pull is consistency in powder burn and that's a key to accuracy, a big key. I just didn't expect that level of consistency between the differences in the brass. In fact that's why I ran this test, to see how much difference there was and that's what was surprising to me, there wasn't any difference. I'm also well aware of groups opening up the more times the brass is fired. My match brass is always virgin brass and is one of the reasons I included once fired brass in the test. I've 200 meter group tested virgin, once fired, twice fired, 3 times ect many times and seen how groups open with work hardening brass. It’s also well known that the primary purpose of crimp is to prevent bullet pull and another surprising (to me anyway) outcome and another reason for the test was a complete lack of bullet pull with no crimp and this is no wuss load. When bullets pull even if not enough to tie up the cylinder it increases powder capacity, changes burn rate and varies pressure, E.S., S.D. AND GROUPS.

I should have included in the first post that the brass fired the second time was not sized for its first firing. It had been sized only once but crimped twice.

Buckshot, your comments on bullet pull are correct except the ID of sized virgin brass is smaller than non sized virgin brass (with my die). The carbide sizer die does size down virgin brass increasing bullet pull. One of the reasons my match brass is not sized virgin brass. Too much case tension wasn't that much of a concern in this test with 18 BHN boolits but yes, ya don't want to be re-sizing AND re-shaping boolits seating them in the case.

One of the lessons (and food for thought) from this test is that with the tight chambers of the FA and the dimensions of my sizing die bullet pull in once sized, once fired brass is a very close match with virgin, not sized brass. Is it the work hardening of firing and sizing brass because the ID of sized brass is smaller than virgin un-sized and "should" have more bullet pull? Or is it the difference between some what work hardened brass with smaller ID and a larger virgin brass ID isn't enough difference to show up? Curious but at the least, there was a change in brass dimensions and work hardening even if minor but not in the results.

A lot of casters looking for top revolver accuracy do all the ussual things like proper fit in the throats, weighing boolits, jumping through hoops etc.. This test should help those just learning to pay close attention to bullet pull. Varying bullet pull was one of the intents of this test so I guess from that perspective I failed but a lot can be learned from any such test. On those cold rainy nights looking over notes and thinking what if and hhmmm . . .

A side note is using un-sized virgin brass in match loads. Over several lot numbers of brass and both Winchester and Starline brass there has not been enough difference in bullet pull to detect on the target or over the chrono. That level of consistency in brass is surprising to me, no doubt the lot number of brass is in my future that will cause changes but so far . . .

Testing cast boolits in revolvers, I love this stuff.

Rick

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Thanks for the clarifiction, Rick. I was wondering why you added another variable (bullet sizing), which would have made the results useless. Sorry,
Morgan

[Nueces]

Boy, Rick, you have some interesting results. Thanks for the work and the post. Stuff like this is probably why I have a four foot stack of unread gunzines. There is much better and more current info right here.

Mark

[44man]

Brass is a strange part of it and I wish I could buy new brass a lot more. I don't shoot target anymore, mainly hunt so it is not as important.
I have found over the years that the .357 is not as picky as the larger calibers. Seems like the more brass around a boolit, the more it matters to get things even. I get away with good groups by using very heavy hunting boolits. That seems to even out pressure changes but I usually get one flier per group and have not figured if it is the brass or just me yet. I have trouble keeping sandbags an even tension under the gun. I can't hold as steady from Creedmore anymore either.
Some of my .44 brass has been fired over 40 times, how is that for stretching money? :mrgreen: My .475 and 45-70 brass is building up many rounds too. Being retired, I get sticker shock when I open a catalog.
But, like I have said many times, the difference in boolit pull doesn't matter a whole lot as long as that bunch of loads are the same. In other words, accuracy is still good if you have a little less pull in one batch or have tight pull in another batch. What happens most is the point of impact is different and you don't want to shoot a mix of different boolit pulls. Comparing measured loads, light pulls alongside heavy pulls has shown a change in as much as 10" between two great groups.
My old RCBS dies with the large expander was the worst culprit and gave the widest spread. Since I changed dies I get things much more even and the distance between groups has dropped to a few inches or less.
Anyway, it does not surprise me that you are getting such good results because for each test batch you shot, you did exactly the same thing and kept them even.
What you should try next is to try and shoot ALL of the different loads into the same group. However, the .357 will not spray them as far apart, you should see some difference in the POI between them though.
In other words, if you shoot 5 shots and 4 are tight, the loose one will be out of the group. If you have 3 tight, the 2 loose ones will be out and hit close together. So there should be a difference in the POI between your expanded brass and the un-expanded brass but no change in actual group size with each.
That is what opens groups, having different pulls in the batch, all mixed up. The reason some factory loads shoot better today then what we can load.
And then there is ME, [smilie=1:the dummy, shooting a mix of brass shot 40 times and some shot 3 times.

[cbrick]

44man,

There can be no doubt that in a little under 3 years when I retire there will be a lot less new brass purchasing going on. I'm not doing nearly as much competing any more either, I just don't have the eyes for it now so most of my shooting time is spent at the bench with a scope. Good thing for me I've always enjoyed experimenting and testing.

Smaller diameter brass not being as effected by work hardening makes sense and would make for very interesting testing to get specific results on paper to compare the results with other similar testing. Tests like that could keep a guy busy for a very long time.

Accuracy of brass of the same number of firings, sizing, and crimping (work hardening) would be improved by keeping lots together as opposed to mixing lots. All of my new brass (straight wall and bottle neck) goes into an MTM Case-Gard box and is never mixed with brass from another box. No doubt that heavy for caliber bullets and/or faster powders would also help keep burn rates even but as bullet pull is reduced by work hardening burn rates change, if every piece of brass in the lot didn't work harden equally burn rates vary. Heavy for caliber bullets also help even out the burn rate by allowing the powder to get burning before the bullet can move increasing the available space and changing the burn rate.

I think most reloaders take dies for granted and that's not really a problem . . . for plinking or general purpose ammo. For experimenting with/for top accuracy, especially for long range revolver accuracy the amount brass is sized, expanded and crimped can have a big effect on both accuracy and the amount brass is worked. If your sizer sizes a bit too much and your expander is just a bit too large your working the brass but more important to long range revolver accuracy is the large expander affecting bullet pull and thus burn rate. The other side of this coin is a small expander and soft alloy, re-sizing boolits when seating them is a no-no as is the brass too tight and the boolit not seating straight.

Factory loads shoot better today than what we can load? Well, in all honesty I can no longer speak to that, it’s been 25+ years since I've bought or shot a factory round or a jacketed bullet. If that's the case a lot has changed because in the past I always found factory ammo radically over priced and radically inadequate.

Should note here that this entire thread is geared towards long range straight wall cartridge accuracy. For those whose goals and needs are 2-3 inches at 25-50 yards much time could be wasted by going to some of these extremes.

Rick

[44man]

Very well said! I can't add anything. :drinks:
Yes, some of the new loads shoot very well indeed. Buffalo Bore ammo is extremely accurate but expensive. Most factory rifle ammo is super accurate now.
I have tried for years to keep all of my brass separate as to times fired. Holy crap, is it hard! :-? I gave up long ago.
I think we are both at the point where a shot out an inch at 50 or 100 yd's makes us shake our heads and I don't know if we can solve it.
I still feel better then those that are happy with 2" at 25 yd's. :Fire:
My feeling has always been that when I miss, it is my fault, not the gun's so I accept it but I can't accept boolits that go all over the place when I shoot my best. Accuracy will ALWAYS be king even if it is only a deer at 15 yd's.
Yeah, my eyes are junk now too, I was 70 in December. Soon someone will have to tell me that a deer is in front of me! :roll:

[cbrick]

I have tried for years to keep all of my brass separate as to times fired. Holy crap, is it hard! :-? I gave up long ago.

Not all that hard. New brass goes into a 100 round MTM box. OK, sometimes its a 50 round box. That's it's home and there is no such thing as imminent domain, no other brass may claim a place in that box and this brass may not claim a place in another box. The only time its out of that box is when that box's brass is in the tumbler (by itself, no other brass) or I am prepping it or loading it or shooting it which is all done one box at a time. I don't reload a box of ammo until ALL rounds in that box have been fired. No exceptions and your brass stays in lot's. I treat all brass, straight wall and bottle neck that's intended for anything accuracy related the same way.

I do no serious 45 ACP competition or shooting and this brass is usually kept in bulk. This is one of two types of brass I pick up off the ground and use. The police rent our club's range and leave it all over the place, once fired WW 45 ACP, gotta love it. The other brass I pick up and use is when that wonderful SWAT teams leaves their 308 Hornady match brass fired in Remington 700 tactical rifles laying there. I sure wish they would start shooting more of that, they do need the practice after all. [smilie=1:

Rick

[Bass Ackward]

Ever wonder why one guys says yes and another says no?

Try taking fired cases and not sizing them at all. Just deprime and reprime. Eliminate case neck tension altogether. Load the same load if this won't materially affect seating depth and size your bullets so that you are at least .001 over your throat diameter. Load the gun muzzle up and once loaded, point muzzle down and push down hard and jerk so that the bullets bump up against the taper at the end of the chambers so you have an equal OAL. Do that each time you fire and observe results on the chrono. That will eliminate case neck tension and anneal of the brass too. Some handgun men might not understand this, but I find that if you shoot rifle like conditions, you get rifle like performance which minimizes many things.

That test is not practical reality, but it does open your eyes to what is really happening. What you also are experiencing is inertia aiding your results because of bullet weight. Your testing provides credence to the shoot the heaviest bullets for caliber axiom with cast. And another reason that it most of the time, the better accuracy levels for cast are found at the top if you can prevent leading. This all aids ignition to minimize variables such as crimp, case neck tension variances from age or anneal, powder positioning, everything.

If you were shooting light for caliber bullets, a gun with much larger throats than the bore, or lower pressure loads, say 24,000 or below, then your crimp and case anneal / change results will show different results during testing. Which is why Elmer's crimp looks so much different to what we have today. Brass can not fold into a short crimp without rounding and loosening somewhere else. But this is another subject.

[44man]

Bass and cbrick both understand! :drinks: I have shot unsized brass with no crimp (One at a time.) and got nice groups. I have worked from that to super tight case tension and a hard profile crimp with jacketed and hard cast and still got very good groups. What you don't want to do is to mix all of these loads.
The other thing is a primer with a lot of pressure and loose case tension can blow the boolits loose to different lengths and change the case volume for each shot. This is common with the .44 and .45 but larger calibers or smaller cases with SP primers are not effected as much. That is the reason I find the Fed 150 works better in the .44 and .45 even with slow powder.
Some primers can blow a boolit loose even with a very hard crimp or tight case tension. Only a few thousandths can ruin a group.
If your revolver boolit is larger then the throat and is against it, it works like a rifle but most large boolits NEED to enter the throats because of the position of the crimp groove.
To tell the truth, I don't see any difference between .430 and .432 boolits in my .44 because I depend on proper EVEN tension.
This might bring up another test for me to do. I will size my RD boolits so they do NOT enter the throats. Then I will seat them so they are right up against the edge of the throats and see what happens. Mine cast at .434 so I can work with them.
I will keep you all posted. I need to cast more first.

[cbrick]

Good stuff, the reason I posted the results is to get people thinking and toss some ideas, thought and experiences around.

One says yes, one says no. Sure, far too many variables involved to be able to say this or that has to be done exactly this way only. In addition to the variables that are the realities of ballistics and handloading there is the variable of the handloader/shooter. The accuarcy and performance of loaded ammo of one person could have him dancing in the street with his success, the next guy shooting the same results would have him running back to the loading bench to try and figure out went so terribly wrong. Then there's what an individual loader/shooter is willing to put into his efforts, the difference between reloaders and handloaders. A reloader assembles book loads exactly as the book says to get something, anything to have ammo to go to the range, the hunt etc. and he's basically happy with the results. A handloader is an experimenter, he has more need to know why, how, what if. Someone will test something and get results X, some place else the same thing is tested and he gets results Y and neither are wrong. So in a nut shell, what are you expecting, what are you willing to accept, what are you willing to do to change it? So some say yes, some say no.

Yep, its been very well proven by many that heavy for caliber bullets go a long way to even out burn rate and the slower the powder the more effect. In addition to the bullet weight affecting the required bullet pull is the primer effect. The force of the primer itself can move the bullet before the powder ignites and increase powder capacity having a big effect the amount of bullet pull needed and thus on burn rate. Yes also to lower pressure rounds effecting the amount of bullet pull needed for consistent burn rates, basically the same effect as heavier bullets.

I'm unclear on what was meant by annealing the brass by not sizing, still thinkin on that. I have myself convinced that annealing is a viable option in reducing bullet pull problems with straight wall crimped brass. I just don't have the test results (yet) to show proof on paper. I have a brand new Ken Light BC-1000 annealing machine for the express purpose of testing virgin, several times fired and annealed straight wall crimped revolver brass. I have only spent enough time with this machine to learn that annealing is an art form. As well made as this machine is it takes experience with the proccess to get viable results. The flame setting too high and/or too close and you have ruined brass. Temp set too low and/or too far away and you have accomplished nothing. These tests would be time intensive but is on my to do list. Perhaps once I get myself retired this would be the project to get started on.

Rick

[fecmech]

As long as we are on the subject of crimp styles and effects or lack thereof here is some data from my logbook involving the .357. The load is in both cases the same:

Federal case and primer
12.5 grs /2400
358429 cast 50/50 ww/lino
Rossi rifle-26"bbl
Data is for 10 shots

Heavy roll crimp:
ES 54
SD15
Avg 1657 fps

Taper crimp:
ES 51
SD 14
Avg 1662 fp

[cbrick]

fecmech, how about the brass? Was it virgin brass? Fired all the same number of times? How many times? Mixed lot's?

Rick

[Bret4207]

Bass said- "If you were shooting light for caliber bullets, a gun with much larger throats than the bore, or lower pressure loads, say 24,000 or below, then your crimp and case anneal / change results will show different results during testing. Which is why Elmer's crimp looks so much different to what we have today. Brass can not fold into a short crimp without rounding and loosening somewhere else. But this is another subject."

Just about what I was going to say. Change that boolit out for a 110 gr FN and stick it in an older Smith or Colt and things chagne, Variables, lots and lots of variables.

BTW- I'm "only" 48 and my vision stinks too!

[44man]

OK, I cast some RD boolits today. I pressed on the checks and ran each a little way, upside down, into a .432 die to put some crimp on.
I found a .433 boolit will just go into the throats so I tried .4335 and they won't enter. I found if I seat to the center of the top GG I am up against the lead to the throats. I will have to roll crimp so I don't size the boolit in my profile crimp die.
I have to wait for the boolits to harden before loading so it will be later in the week or next week before I can do anything. They are my harder alloy then WW's and were water dropped.
Looks like the chrono will also have to be used for this.

[cbrick]

44man, what gun are you using that .433" bullets fit the throats?

[cbrick]

Bret4207,

Hhmmm . . . The load was developed for 200 meter handgun revolver accuracy. The test was for seeing any differences these changes would make in this load.

A pressure level under 24,000 in the 357 would have a tough time at 200 meters. A 110 gr. FP would reduce pressure but also shed a huge percentage of its original velocity well before 200 meters and fail pretty assuredly on 55 pound rams.

There are more variables than possible to list and all of them would change the outcome of this test of the effect of bullet pull changes. I tried to keep the test to the original load to see what effect common loading variations would/could have on an existing and well known load, not to see "if the outcome could be changed".

Rick

[Boomer Mikey]

Most dies today oversize cases. An old friend showed me how to open up carbide sizing dies with a diamond dusted half round or full round file in the lathe. I adjust all my carbide sizing dies to resize cases to new case dimensions eliminating one more variable.

Boomer :Fire:

[44man]

Cbrick, it is my old SBH. It has a .430 bore and .4324 throats.
I just measured a boolit out of my .433 die and they are actually smaller at .4325 so it does need lapped more. I can get the front of a RD into the throat but can't push it all the way through without some force.
The .4335 die is right on the money though and should give a good test.
It is hard to hit a die within .0005" by lapping.

[Bret4207]

Cbrick, not being critical. Just pointing out that crimp or non-crimp can become a factor when you change the componenets. 44Man had said that crimp wasn't a big issue and I've found blanket statements are often misinterpreted. Just wanted that tp be clear for the noobs.

[44man]

Crimp will not save accuracy nor improve it or change the burn rate to any extent. It CAN change the point of impact on the target but not as much as a change in case tension.
I stand by my results in that only enough is needed to hold a boolit under recoil.
Look at the pathetic crimp grooves on Lee boolits! :mrgreen: Darned if they don't shoot great anyway.
Look at factory loaded .454 ammo! You have nothing but ruined brass. The Lee FCD can ruin brass without offering any better accuracy then a mild roll crimp.
The better the case tension the less crimp is needed but don't expect a loose boolit to be held just by the making the crimp so hard it ruins the boolit and brass.
We are handloaders and don't expect to toss brass after a few loadings.

[cbrick]

Crimp and point of impact go hand in hand for sure. Many years ago when I first started shooting the FA 454 in silhouette matches I gave myself an eye opening example of just how much. The 454 was a reduced load but accurate with a 240 gr bullet @ 1450 fps.

I had changed the crimp on this load for whatever reason that I can't remember many years later but at any rate . . . big mistake. Everything else with the load remained the same. I was shooting a match and the difference in crimp didn't show up very much at 50 meters, I just kept shooting a bit lower. At 100 meters things seemed pretty odd, just couldn't keep from hitting low on the pigs belly and even in the leg. It became very clear at the 150 meter turkey what the problem was, the first shot hit dead center, second shot was low at the top of the leg, third shot at the bottom of the leg in the foot, fourth shot was about 2 feet in front of the target in the dirt and the fifth shot was a couple of feet lower yet.

The only difference with these rounds was the bullets pulling (increasing powder capacity and reducing pressure) under the recoil of each shot and the next went lower than the previous shot. I re-crimped the remaining rounds and groups returned to normal.

The longer the range the easier it is to see the effect. The heavier the bullet the more effect because it has more inertia and needs less differences in crimp to have the effect.

44man is correct about over crimping, the more the brass is worked the faster it work hardens and the shorter its life. Crimping can even damage jacketed bullets not to mention boolits. Hhmmm . . . I wonder how well an hour glass would shoot? Kind of a balancing act, crimp too much and ruin brass, don't crimp enough for your bullets weight/level of recoil and vertical string.

I satisfied myself long ago that crimp is for preventing bullet pull under recoil, case tension is for consistent powder ignition and burn rate.

Rick

[454PB]

Crimp and point of impact go hand in hand for sure. Many years ago when I first started shooting the FA 454 in silhouette matches I gave myself an eye opening example of just how much. The 454 was a reduced load but accurate with a 240 gr bullet @ 1450 fps.

I satisfied myself long ago that crimp is for preventing bullet pull under recoil, case tension is for consistent powder ignition and burn rate.

Rick

As a sidebar to all this, you might want to look at this post:


http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=20838&highlight=squib+load

[cbrick]

Thanks for posting the link to that thread. My experience with trying to down load slow ball powder (H-110 in my case) is the same as 454PB and Al reported. While I didn't get any boolits stuck in the bore or run into dangerous pressure excursions that have been reported accuracy was non-existent. That load wouldn't hit a barn if ya were standing inside it. Sometimes I have a real need to learn things for myself . . . the hard way.

With the slow, hard to ignite ball powders I don't believe it’s either a crimp or case tension or even both combined problem. With these powders burn rate is very erratic regardless of crimp or bullet pull with reduced charges (pressure); they ignite very poorly under reduced pressure even to the point of not igniting at all. Also regardless of crimp and bullet pull the primer itself does move a bullet into the bore, how many reports have you read about a round inadvertently not being charged, primer only and the shooter has to pound the bullet out of the bore? That's not a crimp, bullet pull problem, that's the power of a primer.

Results with these powders can be exceptional with higher operating pressures where they ignite well (properly). Heavy bullets can help reduce but will not eliminate the problem. Ignore the powder mfg warning of reduced charges of these powders at your own peril.

Rick

[Bret4207]

I make no claim to have all the answers. but I have seen improved grouping with better crimping with the 32-20 and 2400 and Unique in the 38 and 44 Special. A light crimp opened groups and good heavy roll crimp gave better groups. Maybe I'm misinterpreting my results, but crimp was all I changed. The biggest thing I saw was a marked reduction in flyers. I laid that to combustion. If you guys have other ideas I'm listening.

[cbrick]

Bret4207,

Other ideas? No, just back to that infinite list of variables. How many times was the brass fired? Did somewhat work hardened brass and more crimp help reduce the variation of bullet pull? Are the results repeatable as the brass is fired more and more? And on and on . . .

Everyone will see somewhat different results given all the variables involved. This stuff wouldn't be nearly as much fun (or frustrating) if there were a set of rules that if followed everyone gets exactly the same results.

I believe the internet and forums like this sent handloading forward about a light year. Given all of the loading, shooting, testing each of us have done and discussed here adds to the knowledge and experience of us all. It adds to more avenues to explore, more thinking in different directions, more what if and why not. It makes for better results at the range and we have a better understanding of why. A huge plus is for reloaders with less experience, sure wish there had been a forum like this 40 years ago.

I hope nobody here takes my posts as an end all and final word, not my intent at all. Just passing on my experiences for one reason, to get others, especially those just getting started to THINK, to try new things and experiment and get better results and have a better idea why. If their results are not what they hoped for they may have an idea of what to change and why. Just as I add the experiences from others in their posts to my knowledge and experience, perhaps my experiences will help others. Nothing I post is the final word, just my experience. Boolit casting, handloading and shooting really is a great hobby and from coast to coast its full of really great people.

Rick

[44man]

Exactly, nothing is written in stone and if something works for you, we should hear about it. I can only relate what I have found but that doesn't mean something different won't work for someone else or what I do will work either.
Fliers!!!!, tell me about them! :-? I get them some times when everything is perfect even with a hard profile crimp so I can't say the crimp will prevent them. Neither will I say tight case tension will prevent them. Some stinking little gremlin is hiding in the powder! :mrgreen:
Bret, all I can say is maybe your case tension was very low and a tighter crimp kept the boolits in place just long enough. That certainly will help with the faster powders.
Remember that all of my work is for heavy hunting loads and for long distance with slow powders.
I don't have all the answers.
But altogether, this has been a very enjoyable discussion with nobody getting bent out of shape. I would rather learn from all of you then argue, thanks to all for being gentlemanly. :drinks:

[fecmech]

fecmech, how about the brass? Was it virgin brass? Fired all the same number of times? How many times? Mixed lot's?

Rick

This was all Federal brass that had been loaded at least 3 but no more than 4 times. I load my brass and as it's shot it goes into a box wherein it gets cycled thru again so that all my brass ( other than plinkers) is all loaded the same number of times. In my previous post those 20 cases had been loaded the same amount of times from new. Nick

[Bret4207]

Cbrick- Excellent point on the "fun" aspect. Sometimes we get too caught up in the mechanics and for get that it's just a hobby. And boy, do I evr agree aobut the "net moving things forward. Good points all around guys!