Help Choosing A Cap N Ball Revolver....

[jleneave]

I realize that this might not be the right forum for this but this one gets the most traffic, so I hope it is alright.

First off, I have absolutely no experience with black powder/muzzle loading firearms....NONE! But, I have wanted a cap and ball revolver ever since I can remember. I love about anything to do with the American Civil War and more in particular the Confederate side of the war.

Here is where I need help and a lot of it.... I need advice on choosing a good quality cap and ball revolver that will last me the rest of my life, but I on the same token I don't want to spend a fortune, lets say under $500.00. I want it to be from the civil war era (not an original, a reproduction) and in .44 caliber. I also have no idea what accessories I need to go along with the revolver. I will be casting my own round balls for the most part from flat stick on WW if that is alright? I know I would need to slug the chambers and the bore to get the correct mold, but about what size will I need. When it comes to slugging the chambers how do you get the slug back out? I know nothing about black powder and what type I would use in said revolver. I don't know what size percussion caps I would need either. I do understand what a chain fire is and a little of how to prevent it from reading on here. Any help you guys could give me I would be grateful, even if it is only directing me to a good website or other source of information. I would however like opinions of brands and models of revolvers that you would recommend.

Thanks in advance for the help. Hopefully I won't blow the revolver up or my hand off!!

Jody

[MtGun44]

I bought a Pieta 1860 Army from Cabelas - mailed directly to the house, cool!
Seems like it was $180 or so, pretty and works fine. I have heard that these
fail the cylinder bolt spring with some regularity, like the originals. The round
wire replacement from Brownells for the SAA is reputed to work fine, no personal
experience. Mine has been reliable.

Mine shoots fine, it prefers .457" balls over .454", YMMV. Mine will shoot about
6" groups at 25 yds, standing on my hind legs. Fun to shoot. You should ignore
the silly Crisco stuff and use a Wonder Wad over the powder - rammed, and then
seat the ball. Will shoot as long as you want without gumming up and no black
goop everywhere like with the crisco or similar over the loaded ball. The
crisco is a real bad idea, but is widely published. Elmer Keith learned the lubed
felt wad over the powder method from Civil War veterans when he was a kid,
it is the best way I have ever seen.

Bill

[Bent Ramrod]

The 1860 Army is the most user friendly cap and ball pistol I've shot. The rammer has more leverage due to its design and I could cap it with just my fingers. A .38 Spl case of black powder was a good target load, a .357 caseful for more power. It's also relatively light and very aesthetic looking.

With the arbor well lubed, I could get 60 shots before the cylinder began to turn hard. Taking it apart was a breeze, a wipe of the arbor with a wet rag and 12 or so more shots would be available before it froze up. Then it had to be taken home and really cleaned. A friend's 1858 Remington replica would usually give him 18 shots or so before the cylinder began turning hard. I never saw that his pistol was significantly more accurate than mine, either, although we didn't formally compete at targets.

I would advise against using wheel weights for casting bullets for these guns. I wore the wedge loose on my 1860 Army not from shooting but from ramming balls cast of range scrap and wheelweights into the chambers. However a new wedge was not expensive. My preference was .451" round balls. Only got a chain fire when I didn't smear grease on the front of the balls, and rarely then. Mine was a Navy Arms replica, purchased back in the early '70's and, alas, long traded off.

[calsite]

I had a Hege' Uberti, 1860 Army, that is the German company Hege', did some polishing up on an already existing Uberti. If your looking for the best in my opinion, Ruger makes one heck of a cap and ball but I really don't know how historically correct it is. I wouldn't be scared to by a Uberti either. There is another company called Taylor that carries some enhanced imported C&B's as well. If you're around some other C&B shooters they outta be able to get you started with a good ball powder combo. Stay away from the brass frames if you can, they shoot loose alot easier than a steel frame. 500 should be more than enough to buy you the whole outfit mould and all. Good Luck

[calsite]

I used Wonder Wads over my powder and never had a problem. Never greased.............

[jleneave]

Thanks guys for replying so fast.

MtGun44, Thanks for the info. I do like the looks of the 1860 models the best. I am looking at the Pietas and the Uberti but am not 100% set on them yet. I am glad to hear of the felt wads that will probably be the way I go. The Crisco over the ball sounds like it would be really messy. I don't think I like the idea of slinging grease all over the place. Do you know if it covers the shooter up with grease/oil when using the crisco method? Again, thanks for your input.

BentRamrod, Thank you for your input also. What type of powder are you using in the .38 special case? What other types of lead would you recommend me to use if not the flat stick on WW? I am new to casting also so my knowledge is a little limited at this point and any help/advice is valuable to me. Thank you for taking time to respond to my questions.

Calsite, I would also like to thank you for your input. Unfortunately I do not know anyone else in my area that shoots cap and ball revolvers. The only guys that I know that even shoot muzzle loaders all use the new fancy inline muzzle loading rifles. From the little that I have read on this site I am definitely going to go with a steel framed revolver. Not knocking anyone with a brass frame, but I think that I will shoot it quite a bit and want a revolver that I can shoot a lot and not have to worry about it working loose and still be able to hand it down to my kids or one day grandchildren if I ever have any. I have considered the Ruger especially since I hear they are going to discontinue thier line of cap and ball revolvers, but the ones I have seen don't appear to be period correct and I have my heart set on a revolver without a top straped frame. I will see what I can find out about the Taylor revolvers too. I will also check into the Wonder Wads. Thanks again for taking time to respond to my post.

Everyone please keep the information coming. I want to be as well informed as possible before I decide on one particular revolver and accessories. Thanks!

Jody

[andrew375]

For sheer longevity a Ruger Old Army is the way to go. I've had mine 32 years, put thousands of rounds through it and it still functions perfectly and puts 'em in the ten ring. Only repairs done is a new set of nipples and hammer.

Try to avoid the colts if you plan on shooting it a lot. I have a Walker repro and the base pin is severly cut at the cylinder gap, resulting in serious changes in vertical poi. Also the sights are crap. Great fun though if not very powerful. (http://youtube.com/watch?v=F0xFSNxbHgg&feature=related):-?

[StrawHat]

I love about anything to do with the American Civil War and more in particular the Confederate side of the war.


I need advice on choosing a good quality cap and ball revolver
I want it to be from the civil war era (not an original, a reproduction) and in .44 caliber.

Civil War era immediately rules out the Ruger Old Army, (no great loss). And 44 limits you to the Colt 1860, and the various Dragoons. The CSA had the Dance Brothers revolver, made in limited quantities in Texas, but that was more of a rarity than the Walker Colt.

The most common revolver, in 44, had to be the 1860. Today, the same holds true. I have several and for the sake of simplicity use the 454 round ball in all of them.

The advice on the 38 case is good. Black powder (or a black powder substitute) is the ONLY powder to use! The ball must be in contact with the powder column, no air gap.


When it comes to slugging the chambers how do you get the slug back out?

Before you slug the chamber, unscrew the nipples. Use a brass or wood dowel to drive the ball back out. An oversize ball, 457 diameter, works well for this. You will need 7 (6 for the cylinder, 1 for the bore) so find a friend and borrow them.


Thanks in advance for the help. Hopefully I won't blow the revolver up or my hand off!!Jody

Yeah, that would inhale, especially, the second part. Black powder (or a black powder substitute) is the ONLY powder to use!

Shooting cap and ball revolvers is a fun sport. Relatively easy and safe. If there are any ranges near you, see if they have Cowboy Action Matches. If so attend one or two as a spectator and see if you know anyone.

Even if you don't know anyone, most shooters are more than happy to brag on their owns choices of gear and be willing to give advice.

If you have read about the CW, you know the limited number of handguns that were available. The italians have made a fine art out of producing what "should have been made" guns. Every thing from 1851 colts in 44 caliber to sheriffs models that were never factory produced.

If you want authentic CW, and 44, the 1860 is the real thing.

Top to bottom,

2nd Dragoon, 1860 and Pocket Police. The top two are 44. You can see the size difference.

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc194/StrawHat/Dragoon1860and1862002.jpg

If you have any more questions, sing out. We all started at the beginning so don't worry, nothing you ask cannot be answered!

[spurgon]

StrawHat

I have always thought that I would one day get a Ruger Old Army. I've never heard a disparaging comment about it to date. Maybe though , I misread your "no great loss" report. How do you advise?

"Civil War era immediately rules out the Ruger Old Army, (no great loss)."

[Newtire]

If you get a good deal on a Rogers & Spencer, you can't go wrong. Mine is a real good shooter & very accurate.

[jlchucker]

At one point or another, I have owned a replica of nearly every Colt cap n ball clone--Most I had purchased thru the mail, from EMF in California. All were of excellent quality, except that guns aquired during the early 1980's tended to shoot high. This made machining and installing a higher front sight necessary. Remington clones (of which I still have one, chopped to 51/2 inch barrel length, all shot spot on at 25 yd. The earlier poster is right about the 1860 Army--it's user-friendly. I have used .454 balls in all of my 44's with no trouble--still do. Real black powder works best as well. Pyrodex works, but is just as dirty as real black. I've been the full route on lubes, as well. Borebutter, in addition to being a great lube for loading works well on the base pins after cleaning and goes a long way toward solving cylinder-binding problems. The Walker and big dragoons look impressive and shoot well, but after using them a while you'll likely get weary of lugging them around. A great big gun means a great big cleanup after shooting, too. One model that I had for a while and gave to a friend as a gift was the .31 baby dragoon. It was a five-shot, the model with the rammer--just like a downsized Navy. Really cheap to shoot because readily available 0 buckshot in bags was essentially the same size as a .31 ball. Good luck.

[DLCTEX]

If you want a pistol to last a lifetime of heavy use, the ROA is at the top of the list. My colt 1851 navy by comparison is not as heavily constructed, but I like it's sleek lines and lighter weight. DALE

[bobk]

For best accuracy, the Rems are hard to beat, but they feel odd in my hand. I shot an 1861 and it was a joy to handle, and the accuracy was at least minute-of-tin-can. It's a .36, but other than that is the same as the 1860. No offense to anyone, but I think the Ubertis are better finished than the Piettas. I would avoid spending the money for one of the "original" finishes, as I have read that they don't protect the bore during the process, hence you end up with a rough bore. Just my personal taste, but I think any of them with a bead blast finish, but the cylinder left bright (bluing steel wooled off) would look kinda neat, if not original. And if you don't like it, you can always beadblast the cylinder.
Bob K

[Naphtali]

In terms of quality control, Pietta manufactures two versions of a M1858 Remington revolver. Its standard version, having among other things non-progressive rifling, is comparable with other good quality cap lock revolvers.

However, they also make, in steel and stainless steel, a fixed sighted competition revolver. Lock work is different from standard and not interchangeable. Rifling is progressive. Bore diameter is different. Chamber ID is different. In essence, this is a completely different revolver that looks like their standard version. This revolver is a gem, comparable with circa 1960s Colt Pythons in quality. The biggest problem would be to identify vendors.

For that ultimate home protection device, circa 1863, a LeMat Grapeshot revolver is the cat's meow. Nine-shot .45-caliber revolver with single-shot 20-gauge shotgun barrel acting also as center pin. And I have a vested reason to mention LeMats. I am selling a pair of them. Accept or reject information in this paragraph as you will.

[Char-Gar]

For pure quality and service life, the Ruger Old Army is the way to go. If you want one, you better hop on it, as they are discontinued and the prices are starting to climb

For Civil War accuracy, the Colt 1960 is the way to go in 44s. I would start with Cimarron Arms. They get the same Italian pistols, but they have strick quality control and excellent customer service. They don't sell the junk and all of the Italian produces can turn out some junk.

You might even be able to find a Colt Reissue. The parts for these were made in Italy and shipped to Colt in Hartford for assembly as finish. They as good as original Colts and have all of the proper Colt Markings. These were made in the 80s and are still around.

[jleneave]

StrawHat, that is a nice looking collection of cap and ball revolvers, I am a little jealous! Thanks for all the information and for taking the time to write such a detailed response. If you don't mind me asking what brand are the revolvers in the picture and where did you buy them, I hope I am not being too nosy and if I am set me straight. I understand not to use smokeless powder in a cap and ball revolver, that probably goes for all muzzle loading firearms don't it? (not really sure) What type of black powder/black powder substitute do you use in your revolvers? I really like the looks of the 1860 but several of the ones I have looked at online say they are set up to attach a stock. Does that detract from the appearance of the revolver at all? I have looked at some revolvers on Midway and they are having a sell this month on a couple of the Uberti revolvers and the 1860 is included in the sale. I also located an 1860 Uberti on midway that has a fluted cylinder that looks pretty good, but I kind of like the unfluted cylinder too. AAAHHHGGG.......to many to chose from.

Newtire, thanks for responding but I have no clue where I would even come across one of those. To be honest I have never heard of Rogers & Spencer.

What are the opinions of the Uberti cap and ball revolvers? The only thing that I am a little worried about is that the 1860 is set up to attach a stock to it and I wonder if it detracts from the looks? Has anyone on here ordered a Uberti revolver from Midway and if so were you happy with the purchase? There are no guns shops in my area that stock reloading equipment so I order all my reloading components from Midway with the exception of powder and primers and I get that at a gun shop that is 2 to 2 1/2 hour drive. So when I go to that shop I stock up on powder and primers. If anyone knows of a better place/website that deals with black powder equipment please let me know.

Keep the info coming, please.

I am really sorry to be such a pain in theA$$!! I live in a very rural place and I don't know anyone who shoots cap and ball revolvers so I am depending on you guys for guidance.......no pressure though, it is just up to ya'll to make sure that my first expierence with a black powder firearm is an enjoyable one and this expierence will decide if I get hooked on this type of shooting, or if I end up despising it and never touch anything else related to black powder shooting!!!! ............just kidding.

[jleneave]

jlchucker, thanks for taking the time to respond. I have read a lot of good things about the bore butter and I will definitley check into it more. I like the looks of the Walker but everyone complains about the ramrod falling away from the barrel while shooting and at times locking the gun up. If it wasn't for this problem I think that I would probably buy one. But since this is my first expierence with a black powder firearm I would like it to be as problem free as possible, at least until I get where I know what I am doing. Thank you for the information.

Dale & Chargar, thanks for your input. There is no doubt in my mind that the Ruger Old Army is the strongest of the bunch. I have owned a Ruger Blackhawk or Super Blackhawk since I was 15 years old. I saved my money all summer when I was 15 and Dad went with me to the gun shop and I bought my first handgun, a stainless Blackhawk in .357. Can you imagine letting a 15 yr old have a gun like that today? They would put you inder the jail for it, but back then school shootings were not heard of. I didn't know Cimmaron Arms put out a cap and ball, I will take a look at them, thanks for the heads up.

BobK, thanks for replying. I don't much care for the "original finishes" myself. While they do look more authentic, I like the looks of the blue revolvers better and don't want the problems with a unprotected barrel.

Naphtali, thanks for taking time to respond. The LeMat sounds like a wild looking gun, I don't guess I have ever seen one. As for home defense I will leave that to one of my Kimber 1911s or my Glock 21. With me being new to cap and ball revolvers I don't trust myself to be proficient enough to protect my family with one, but I bet in 1863 the LeMat would have been a good choice. Thanks again for the information.

I am still a little confused as to what type of black powder to use or not to use (ex. FFg, FFFg, ect.)

Jody

[xtimberman]

Use 3FG grade Black Powder in your C&B revolver.

I have a Colt 1851 Navy in .36 cal, so I can't comment on .44. This is the second one I've had - the first one was a Robert E. Lee Commemmorative, and I shot the heck out of it. My buddy has a Rem. .44 Army clone by Pietta, and it's more trouble-free and less likely to gum up than my Colt. That doesn't jibe with other observations, but it's just my experience. :???:

If you really want to hand something down to the kids, you need to get a genuine Colt. JMO.

xtm

[StrawHat]

spurgon,

If you want a ROA have at it but do it quick, Ruger pulled the plug on them and prices are climbing.

jleneave was looking for a Civil War replica and whatever the ROA is, it isn't a replica of anything from the CW!

I am a traditionalist. For me an inline is an underhammer.

jleneave,

In that photo, all three revolvers are Ubertis, the Dragoon and the 1862 were imported by Replica Arms of Marietta Ohio. Replica was bought out by Navy Arms in the 70s. The 1860 was bought used at the Log Cabin Shop, Lodi Ohio. The Log Cabin is still in business and the Kindigs are some of the most knowledgeable fellows to ever strike a flint. And more than willing to help a newcomer or oldtimer. The boys took over after Wes passed on and have continued to further the black powder sports at matches and in the Halls of Congress. If you are ever near Lodi Ohio, it would be miles well driven to visit.

Most 1860s, 1861s and 1851s are set up for a shoulder stock. It is the rare replica that isn't. Some like the stocks some don't. Stay away from them until you are comfortable with C&B shooting.

Fluted cylinders were used on very few original Colts. Some Dragoons, 1860s and 1861s were set up that way but many were returned to Colts to have the cylinders replaced after they burst. Ironmongering was not the science it is today.

I forgot about the Rogers and Spencer revolver. My memory is not what it was 40 years ago.

I also did not mention the Remington. And I like that gun. It was one of the first revolvers I ever fired. I was shooting with a BP competitor and he let me fire his target revolver. It was an original Remington 44. The chambers were reamed for uniformity, a S&W adjustable sight was let into the topstrap and a Patridge front sight was installed on the barrel. Looking back, it was one of the most accurate revolvers I have ever seen fired. Wish I knew where it was today.

If you look at the 1860 in my post, that is not the modern "original" finish. That is what happens to a blued gun that gets used, a lot.



that is a nice looking collection of cap and ball revolvers, I am a little jealous!

Thank you, I have another picture with more of them. As for jealous, no need for that. I generally buy guns when they are broken or don't shoot the way the owner expects. In other words, cheap. Then I fix them up to work.

I've also been at this for 40 years so they tend to accumulate.

Time to shut up....yeah you're right, too late!:drinks:

[Bull Schmitt]

If you would like more info on Remington style revolvers visit SCORRS (http://www.scorrs.org)

[curator]

jleneave,

The Ruger Old Army is enough alike Civil War era handguns, only the hardcore reenactors will mind. There are several reasons why it is the the best value in cap & ball handguns: Good steel, excellent warantee, good design, good (adjustible)sights, and most importantly, the chamber diameter matches bore diameter for top accuracy.

Most Italian reproductions (including the Colt signature series) have chamber diameters 3-5 thousands of an inch under bore (groove) diameter. This limits accuracy some even though a soft lead ball will obturate to fill the grooves, as it usually does not center itself exactly. I suspect the manufacturers do this to limit their liability (and chamber pressures) just in case Bubba cross-threads the nipples.

Dixie Gun Works did market a Pietta "Shooter's .44 revolver" based on the 1858 Remington Army. It was advertised to have a chamber diameter of .456 and a groove diameter of .454. Their other .44 cap and ball revolvers boasted chambers of .447 and groove diameters varying from .452 to .462(!). A percussion revolver operates on the same principals as a cartridge revolver. Undersize bullets result in reduced accuracy. Black powder just doesn't create the pressures and temperatures to make this combination produce the severe leading that would occur if smokeless powder was used.

Italian revolvers also have metric screws, soft steel parts, and quality control issues that vary with manufacturer and model, and replacement parts usually need to be hand fitted. If you are dead-set on a Colt open top type revolver, stick with Uberti and go for the 1851 Navy .36, or the 2nd or 3rd. model Dragoon. They are both sturdy and capable of reasonable accuracy. The 1860 Army and the 1862 "Pocket Navy" are both over powered (unless reduced loads are used) for their frame size and develop battered wedge mortices with hard use.

[Ricochet]

Yeah, I've found the steel in the parts and accessories of my San Marco Walker, bought in 1980, to be very soft. It shoots way high, too. I have a hard time actually hitting anything with it past saber range. But it's a blast to shoot! Leads the bore terribly due to the aforementioned chamber/bore size discrepancy, but it's not too hard to clean out. Anything harder than pure lead for boolits risks damaging the loading lever.

I have a dual cavity Lyman .375" ball mould that I need a revolver for. Those 1862 Police models sure are pretty.

[yarro]

I have 3 pairs as follows. All are Uberti's bought from Taylors:
1860 Army's
1861 Navy's
1862 New Police consecutive pair.

They all required Treso nipples to not have cap jams. Required some smoothing on the internals to make it function to my satisfaction, but all my cowboy guns have been worked over so that is the way I wanted my cap and ball guns. They all, no matter who makes it, eventually will break the hand or bolt spring so get more. The crappy Main Spring will eventually become too light to work reliably as well, but they all have that problem it would seem. My buddy shoots 300-400 rounds a month through each of his 1851 Navies or 1860 Armies depending on what one he likes more this month and he has seen all the same problems. He started out with Pietta, which will do well for casual shooting, then switched to Uberti's from Taylor.

My Pietta 1860 Army from 5 years ago was a piece of junk. One cylinder was off from the rest (ie not bored correctly) after I got the other 5 timed and it took me forever to get it close to right. I broke a spring the 3rd shot. I had lots of cap jams and did not know about Treso nipples at the time. It hangs on my buddies wall now in a case of western type stuff.

My 1858 Remington, I think it was Pietta as it came from Cabelas about the same time as my 1860, did not shoot very well plus it did not fit the hand very well and the reach to the hammer made me shift the gun in my hand to pull the hammer back. It required Treso nipples to not have cap jams. It got traded off for 24 boxes of .277 Speer bullets, which were going for 14 bucks a box plus shipping at the time. The guy wanted a wall hanger. So it was a great deal for me with a clear conscience about the issues that I had with the gun.

I have one Griswald and Gunnison copy made by High Standard. It is really nice and a great shooter. It was part of the Guns of the South Collection. If you can ever find one of the three models, buy it or PM me and I will.

For plinking the .36 caliber guns are great. If I was to actually have to carry one as a side arm, I think that I would carry a .44. Handle one before you buy it and see if it fits your hand. If you have a big hand or long thumbs then a 1858 may work for you are they are stronger guns.

Whatever you do. Remove the nipples with a nipple wrench, clean the threads, and reassemble with anti-sieze. Never dry fire the gun as it wrechs the nipples. Clean asap after firing if there is much humidity.

-Yarro

[AZ-Stew]

For someone who has NO experience with C&B revolvers or black powder shooting, there are some things you should know.

For the majority of handguns, FFF grade black powder is the baseline propellant. Pyrodex "P" grade is a substitute, as is Hodgdon Tripple 7, FFF grade. I think there's a Jim Shockey's Gold substitute available, as well, but I'm not familiar with it. NEVER, NEVER use ANY variety of smokless powder alone, or mixed with, black powder or any of the black powder substitutes!

Black powder is measured in grains weight. Pyrodex propellants are measured to the same VOLUME as the correct WEIGHT of black powder. I believe this applies to the Tripple 7 propellants, as well. Example: Colt 1860 Army replica, .44 caliber. This revolver might use a 25 grains weight load of FFF grade black powder as a nice, accurate, plinking load. Whatever volume your powder measure requires to dispense this WEIGHT of black powder is the VOLUME you should use of Pyrodex. Once you have the measure set to dispense the correct weight of black powder, use the same setting to dispense Pyrodex. DO NOT dispense Pyrodex at the same weight as a proper charge of black powder. Doing so produces an overload condition.

You will have to experiment with the percussion caps to find an acceptable size for your revolver. I just bought a Pietta 1860 Army replica last weekend. It is supposed to take #11 caps, but in the CCI brand they're a loose fit. #10 CCI caps are a VERY tight fit. Using #11s that have been pinched partway closed to make them stick on the nipples is the best bet for me until I can find a set of nipples that have a better fit for one size or the other of caps. I've also tried RWS brand caps, #11 size, and they fit loosely, too.

No, you won't get covered with Crisco if you fill the chamber mouths with it before firing. Anything to the side of your shooting position is in jeopardy, though. I haven't shot C&B revolvers for many years. There were no "Wonder Wads" back then. I have some and will be trying them this weekend when I take the Pietta to the range. Either way, you need something to help prevent chain fires. I've never had one, either in the Remington copy I have, or in the Walker replica I have.

The Walker is a blast to shoot! BIG powder charge, BIG bang! Lotsa recoil, but it's not a slap like with smokless. It's just a big push. Yeah, the loading lever does drop down sometimes after firing. No big deal. You're not in a life-or-death situation with it. Just let the experience teach you a first-hand history lesson.

Avoid balls that are made of anything other than PURE LEAD. As noted earlier, you may break a loading lever. Ask me how I know.

Cleaning: Hot water and dish washing soap. DO NOT USE HOPPE'S #9! Disassemble ALL parts of the revolver and scrub EVERYTHING thoroughly. Use an old toothbrush, cleaning rod, cleaning brushes, wet patches, whatever it takes to get all the residue off of everything. This is the biggest PITA with C&B revolvers. The powder residue goes EVERYWHERE, so you have to disassemble everything to be sure you get rid of all the residue. The powder residues are HIGHLY corrosive, whether using real black powder or a substitute. The residue attracts moisture from the air and will rust a gun overnight. Do your final rinse of the parts one at a time under HOT water and dry them off thoroughly. The heat induced into the parts from the hot water will help them dry. When dry, coat all bearing surfaces, including the bore and chambers, with Wonderlube and all other surfaces with a preservative oil to prevent rust.

I have another thread on this subject in the "Wheelguns, Pistols and Handcannons" section of this forum. There may be some things there you can use.

Enjoy your C&B revolver. They're a lot of fun.

Regards,

Stew

[jleneave]

I thank all of you for helping me with this decision. I never thought I would get so many posts with people willing to help, I really appreciate everyone taking the time to get me straightened out with this. This is truly a terrific website full of generous people. I have never been a member of another forum with so many people that are so willing to help others and I have been and still am a member of a lot of different forums. Ya'll are a first class bunch of guys.

Xtimberman, That Robert E. Lee revolver sounds nice. Who made it and are they still available? I hate to trouble you but is there any way that you could post a few pictures of it or direct me to a website that would have some pics of it? I agree a genuine Colt would be better a better aierloom (sp?) but I probably couldn’t afford one and if I could afford it I wouldn’t want to shoot it and the whole reason for getting this one is to learn how to shoot it and to shoot it a lot.

Curator, Ricochet, Yarro, and AZ-Stew……..There is a lot of useful information in ya’lls post thanks for taking the time to write such detailed information. Those “Guns of the South Collection” sounds very interesting and I will keep my eye out for them. Thanks for he heads up.

I am still not 100% sure which revolver that I will go with, but I am leaning towards the 1860 at this point to do most of my shooting with and if I come across a Ruger Old Army I may latch on to one to put up.

If there is more information that I need in making a decision on which revolver to get or tips/information about shooting it please let me know and keep the replies coming.

Jody

[xtimberman]

The key word is "had". I no longer have the Colt Robt. E. Lee Navy - so no pix available. Colt made them and a companion U.S. Grant Comm. during the early '70s. They are very nice and come cased in a wooden box with all accessories. They are probably expensive by Pietta standards when you find one for sale, but you stated that you want to hand something down to the kids - and Italian or Spanish-made repros. aren't gonna become valuable family heirlooms.

Don't get me wrong, I have some Uberti items and like 'em very much. I shoot 'em a lot and have my own opinion of their quality.

Affordability is a relative thing. Lots of people with little available cash own fine guns and use them frequently. Instead of buying 2 or 3 inexpensive guns, they save up and buy one really nice example. Quality vs. quantity. Sometimes you can be fortunate and find quality at a good price. If I had some extra $$ I'd buy one of those LeMats myself.

xtm

[jlchucker]

BobK, I agree on you about the finish. You can pay extra for a gun that looks "old", or buy a new cap n ball revolver and carry it around with you and let it develop its own character. Those who are in a hurry about the "blueless" look though, could do what my brother did with his Navy Arms model 1860 back in the mid-70's. He was discussing cleaning this gun with a clerk in a gun shop. The clerk, not the most savvy gun guy in the world, told him that the only way to clean a blackpowder revolver would be to remove the grips and dip frame, barrel, and cylinder in a pot of boiling water mixed with vinegar. My brother, then a teenager, believed this, went home and did it, and after a few minutes took the gun out of the pot. He still has the gun today, but from the time he boiled it, there was very little bluing left. The gun had turned the same shade of gray that these repros with the "old west" look carry today. Better to let your holster wear develop with use, I think.

[jleneave]

If you get a good deal on a Rogers & Spencer, you can't go wrong. Mine is a real good shooter & very accurate.

I have been doing a little research and came across a Page and Spencer black powder revolver. Have you ever heard of one of these?? If so what is your opinion on the gun?? Thanks

Jody

[Ricochet]

This isn't a bad price nowadays: http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=3438

Might be just the ticket for my .375" ball mould. :mrgreen:

[JIMinPHX]

You’re going to need
1) a C&B revolver
2) FFFG black powder or Pyrodex P or an equivalent powder, NOT modern smokless powder
3) A powder flask
4) A powder measure
5) A nipple pick
6) A nipple wrench
7) Lead balls
8) #10 or #11 caps depending on which model C&B revolver you get
9) Wonder Wads in .44 cal are optional, but highly recommended
10) Wonder Lube & breach/nipple grease are highly recommended.

Pietta & Uberti both make good quality repros for reasonable money. Expect to find something pretty good for $200. The 1851 colt replicas usually seem to be the cheapest & are one of the more classic open-top styles. I've seen them as low as $150. The 1858 Remington clones are a little more technologically advanced & are stronger by design. They also let you easily remove the cylinder to load it off line in a loading jig which is much faster & easier. You can get a spare cylinder so that somebody is loading one while another guy is shooting with the other. Legend has it that Jesse James used to carry an 1858 & several spare cylinders. If you plan to shoot it a lot, the 58 may be a better choice. I’ve messed with two Piettas so far. One was good to go right out of the box. The other needed some slight fitting work on the hammer & the nipples to get reliable ignition. I think that its just the luck of the draw.

Some guns take #10 caps & some take #11s. It varies by which model you select. Cap fit varies a little by brand. CCI, Remington & RWS caps all fit a little different. If you find one that fits your nipples, buy several tins & stash them in case they become hard to find in the future. Some nipples may require a little hand fitting to get the caps to go on right.

All the C&B revolvers that I am aware of except for Remington Riders, use 3F black powder or one of its equivalents. I usually use Pyrodex “P”. The P stands for Pistol. Their RS is for rifle & shotgun. It’s easy to remember that way. I haven’t tried the tripple 7 yet, but that’s another option. Black powder & it’s substitutes are all measured by volume, not by weight. You will need a volumetric powder measure or a flask with a calibrated spout to properly measure your powder. As others here have said, a .38spl case can be used as a powder measure for a .44 C&B if you have nothing else. A .38 case is also handy for pushing a wonder wad down over the powder charge.

When you buy a gun, the instructions should tell you what size balls you need. Most .44s are happy with .454”. you need to stay with pure dead soft lead. When you load a ball, it should shave a complete ring of lead off the ball as it goes into the cylinder.

The loading sequence is –
Powder first,
Then wad (if used)
Then ball
Then overball lube (if used)
Repeat for next chamber
After all chambers are loaded, run a nipple pick through each nipple to be sure it is clear
Then Caps go on LAST!

Wonder wads are convenient & offer a good margin of safety against chain fires as well as helping to keep the crud from building up too quickly in your barrel. In the absence of Wonder Wads, I usually opt for Wonder Lube 1000 over the loaded balls. A small amount applied with a q-tip is plenty as long as it covers the entire edge of the balls. I avoid bore butter because it melts in the 110 degree average summer day here in AZ.

As was said before clean that thing with HOT soapy water, not nitro powder solvent that you would use for a modern firearm. Some guys put them in the dish washer when the wife isn’t looking. Some guys boil them. After they are clean, dry them completely & apply a lite coat of oil to the EXTERIOR metal parts. Lube the inside of the barrel with a lite coat of bore butter or wonder lube. Take out the nipples & lube their threads with gorilla grease or breach & nipple grease. Grease the star & the hand.

Before you load it for the first time, load it with just caps & make sure that they go off reliably. If not, fix any problems that you might have before you go dumping gun powder into that thing. Unloading them is not a conveniant task.

[JIMinPHX]

Most guys carry those things with the hammer down on an empty chamber. Otherwise, they DO go off if you drop them on the hammer or if you bump the hammer on a tree or a brick wall or something. Most of the 1858 Remingtons have a halfway notch on the cylinder between the caps where you can rest the hammer so that you can carry it with 6 chambers loaded if you want to. Most other models don’t have that option.

[Bent Ramrod]

I've always used dishwashing detergent for cleaning, rather than soap. Soap left the black powder residue all over the sink in a ring, while the detergent would disperse it completely.

I used to take the gun completely apart, wash each screw and part in the hot dish detergent solution, rinse in hot clear water, finish drying with patches (if the water hadn't evaporated from the heat of the parts) oil the parts, grease the nipples and the cylinder arbor, put the thing back together and go and take a shower myself. Never got the routine down to less than an hour, and the one time I gave the outside a lick and a promise the next day some of that smoke deposit had bleached the color hardening in a part of the frame.

Nowadays, you can use a mixture of Ballistol and water to clean the major components of the gun. The nipples, cylinder and barrel need to come off and be swabbed in and out with the mixture. The frame and lockwork group is treated the same way. Then everything dried with patches, swabbed and rewiped with pure Ballistol and the lockwork spaces sprayed with Ballistol. Then grease the appropriate parts and put together again. This can be repeated for three or four shooting sessions, if the gun is used frequently, but certainly after session #4, the gun should come completely apart for the cleaning described above. The Ballistol will not remove the gunk inside the gun but does stabilize it into a sort of "mud" that doesn't rust the metal it touches.

Pietta might not be quite up there with Uberti in quality but they're getting very close. They also make copies of more models than Uberti does. If you buy one from Cabela's they will accept returns and send you a new one if there is something wrong wit it. The one Colt "Signature Series" 1860 Army I saw was pretty underwhelming. Very shiny and polished but not very well fitted. The earlier Colt repros were very good; a friend has two 1851 Navy's that are quite nice.

[waksupi]

Good point, on soap and detergent being different animals. Check the ingredients on BP solvents, and detergents. You will see surficants near the front of the list. Surficants, is what you want. So, with a cheap detergent, you have gallons of effective BP bore cleaner. Some is probably setting next to your washing machine right now.

[Ricochet]

I'm liking the dishwasher idea that was mentioned. Trick is the part about "when the wife's not looking."

[drinks]

JLE, try the Dixie Gun Works site, the ancestral home land of 20th Century MLs.

[jleneave]

JIMinPHX, Bent Ramrod:

Wow!! That is some good detailed information!! Thank you both for taking the time to write all that down for me, I REALLY appreciate both of you doing that and it will help me a great deal!!!! After this thread dies down I plan on printing it out to keep for reference. Thank you again!! JIMinPHX, when you say dead soft lead do you mean that the flat stick on WW are too hard for casting round balls? Would I be better off buying round balls from Hornady or another bullet company?

Drinks:

I am perusing the Dixie Gun Works website as I write this. How is their service before and after the purchase? Are they pretty quick to ship? And how do their prices compare to other dealers? Thanks for replying to this post.

I hope I that I thanked everyone who replied to this post and if I missed anyone I am sorry. I am trying to absorb all this great information.

[Saint]

One of the great things about cap & ball revolvers is you can get a great one for very little money. I know a bit but I am by no means an expert. I can tell you for sure that Pietta makes great revolvers. One think that it is important to know is that there are many different muzzleloader companies in the US that sell C&B's but almost all of there revolvers will be either Uberti or Pietta and they are all made in Italy, the only way to know for sure is to check what is stamped on the barrel, mine shown in my avatar for example was purchased in a Traditions box but it is a brass frame Pietta 1851 Navy .44. If you really have the dough to spend I would highly recommend a LeMat revolver as they are incredibly fun to shoot and a great conversation piece. The LeMat is a 9 chamber .42 caliber that also has a 10th single shot 16 gauge shotgun barrel. They can be found in your price range but not easily. You will here a lot of people say you need to get steel frame and if you have the money to do so it's a good idea. The .44 pictured however has anywhere from 5-8 thousand rounds through it and I still have not noticed it getting loose at all. The forcing cone is just as close to the chambers as the day I bought it. For ease of use however the .44's are great as you can purchase pyrodex pellets for them that make it much less of a headache to reload, only problem with these pellets is that that they are max loads and they are not quite as accurate as a loose powder load. All in all though whatever floats your boat is great. My 150 dollar brass frame Pietta is by far the most fun of all my guns. P.S. you can go forever without a loading stand but once you get one you will not know how you lived without it.

[floodgate]

jleneave:

Dixie is a good source; prices are generally OK, they have a great inventory and back orders are rare, and they ship promptly. I've done business with them for nigh onto 50 years, and had a chance to drop in on them on a trip back around 1970.

Floodgate

[JIMinPHX]

Oh Yea, I almost forgot. This is VERY IMPORTANT. Do NOT leave any airspace in with the powder charge. Seat the ball all the way down until it pushes on the powder or the wad. Black powder + an airspace = Boom. You don’t want that. This is specific to black powder. Modern smokeless powders that we use in modern cartridges are different.

[jleneave]

Saint, thanks for your reply to this post all information is appreciated. I will probably go with a steel frame revolver for if nothing else for the added strength. Thanks again.

Floodgate, Thanks for recommending Dixie Gun Works. Ii have been looking at their website and it looks like they have a large selection of cap and ball revolvers with lots of accessories for them also.

JiminPHX, the information about not having an air space between the bullet and powder could prove to be valuable information. You might have just kept me from blowing my hand off because I wasn’t aware of that. I think I have read that before but had forgotten it until you said that. You would think that since you can have a space between smokeless powder and the bullet that you could do the same with black powder. If you think if any other info like that please let me know. Thanks.

I plan on making my mind up this weekend and ordering my revolver and accessories for it this coming week. I am leaning towards either a Pietta or Uberti Model 1860 with a steel frame right now unless some information comes along that changes my mind. I think that one of these will make a good first cap and ball revolver to learn the basics with and if I really get into it I can always expand my collection later. If anyone has any advice for me please chime in within the next couple days. Thanks to everyone that replied to this post I really appreciate all the help ya’ll have given me I hope one day that I can return the favor.

Jody

[opentop]

Here is another site to look at http://www.taylorsfirearms.com/products/bpArmyNavy.tpl

I just bought one of their 1872 opentops and I really like it. They are made by Uberti.

[JIMinPHX]

When you get that thing, read the book that comes with it, just in case all of us missed something important.

[MikeSSS]

Civil War revolvers included .44 Colt Dragoons, .36 1851, .44 1860, .36 1861 Colts and other Colts too. .44 and .36 Remington revolvers were used as well. "1858" Rem replicas are actually New Model Army guns from about 1862 on. 1849 .31 Pocket Colts were used and so were 1863 Rem .31 pocket guns. The Army used .36's and .44's, so did the Navy.

I shoot a pair of Uberti 51 .36 Colts and a 1860 .44 Colt and a "58" .44 Remington.

Both the Piettas and Uberti's are well made, are beautiful and shoot very well. The Uberti 51's cylinders are .378", .375" balls load without shaving the ring but still shoot very well. This allows me to use .375 balls cast from wheel weights and range lead. The Pietta 1860's cylinder is .445 and the "58" Remingtons is 0.447". Store bought .454 and .457 balls load easily by holding lever pressure while the lead ring flows off the ball. Factory balls use very soft lead. .454 wheel weight and range lead balls require too much lever pressure to work well. I'll get a .445 mold eventually this should let me use wheel weight and range lead in these Piettas.

I use replica flasks in .44, .36 and .31 size with Pyrodex P. This works fine. I use Crisco, it works. If you think Crisco is messy then you havn't used lard.

Remington no. 10 caps work very well. CCI's 10's are smaller and don't fit the Ubertis using both stock and Treso nipples, but the Rem 10's work. CCI 11's fit pretty much everything. I push a thumb nail into the skirt of the cap before seating it, that way they stay on. The 51 Ubertis seem to need Treso nipples the Piettas don't.

Fall Creek Suttlery has excellent Civil War flap holsters and belts, cap boxes and cartridge boxes too. Lee molds work great. Wrap the gun in saran wrap after putting CLP on it, wet the holster till it feels 'mushy', put the gun in it and let it dry for a day.

After loading don't forget to put the hammer between nipples. Revolvers fall from cross draw holsters when you bend over to pick something up. They hit the ground hammer first and aimed at your face. Flap holsters prevent this. A plug in the bottom of a holster prevent the gun from getting dirt, etc up the barrel when you sit on the ground.

These guns point shoot better than almost anything else. A silhouette is easily one handed at 50 yards. These guns were extremely effective weapons and still are.

The Colt SAA came out in 1873 but the Army got most of them, percussion revolvers were used for a long time after the CW.

I clean with hot water and dish liquid. After the gun is dry I put CLP on it and into it.

[jleneave]

Opentop, thanks for the website, I will check it out.

JIMinPHX, I will make sure to read all the literature that comes with the revolver before trying it out. Thanks again for all you help and input. I feel much better about getting a cap and ball revolver thanks to you and everyone else’s advice.

MikeSSS, thanks for the info about all the different models of revolvers used during the CW and the tips on what size balls to try. The tips on the holster are also helpful.

I never really got an answer on if I could use the flat stick on WW to cast round balls for a cap and ball revolver or not. Does anyone have any advice or experience with using the flat stick on WW for this purpose?

Jody

[floodgate]

jlneave:

"I never really got an answer on if I could use the flat stick on WW to cast round balls for a cap and ball revolver or not. Does anyone have any advice or experience with using the flat stick on WW for this purpose?"

Sorry! I meant to add that to my post but never got back to it. I haven't used them myself - got lots of old plumbers' lead pigs - but by all accounts the flat, stick-on WW's are pure enoughto use safely in the C & B revolvers. As a check, they should bend easily, and you should be able to gouge them with a thumbnail; if so they are soft enough to load and shoot well and safely.

floodgate

[Wayne Smith]

Couple a things-

Saint - The Pietta LeMat is a nine shot .44 caliber, not .42, that was the original caliber. Pietta recommends .440 balls. I've gotten excellent support from Pietta. The weak spot is the ram holder, just a piece of spring steel punched for a screw and bent. It breaks easily.

It's easy to make your own under ball wads. Pure wool weather stripping and your lube, melt the lube and soak the stripping, then press out about 1/3 of the lube. Let cool. Cut to the proper size.

I've used these for years. Never left one loaded to see if it contaminated the powder, tho!

[xtimberman]

Wayne's idea about weatherstripping is a good one - and the best source for heavy wool felt, IMO. It will contaminate the powder charge, though, if left in place too long. Don't ask me how I know! Let's just say that a round ball stuck halfway between the chamber and barrel of a 1858 Rem. shuts your fun down for awhile.

Making little paper cartridges like the old factories use to sell is the best method for keeping a C&B revolver loaded for an extended time period without worrying about grease contamination of the powder charge.

xtm

[JIMinPHX]

Most of the flat stick on WW are OK to use for BP balls, but a few of them here & there are a little harder than average. Give the weights a good twist. If they feel soft, then they are probably OK.

If you get two books in the box when you buy your C&B & one of them is written in very bad English that sounds like a poor translation from Italian, don’t be surprised. If the book that is written in good English tells you that the safe powder charge for your revolver is something like 20-30 grains of 3F while the bad translation tells you to use something like 12-15 grains, stick with the book that’s in good English. I had an e-mail sent to Pietta Brothers that was written in Italian. The response that I got back basically said that in Europe they tend to prefer more dainty loads, but that the stronger American loads were safe. Truth be told, if you try to use a charge as small as the 15 grains that they recommend, the ball will be seated too deep & that will cause problems. If you want to use a load that small, then you need to fill up the chamber with grits or something so that the ball sits in the right place in the cylinder. 20 or 30 grains of 3F in a .44 cal C&B is a very comfortable load to shoot. That thing is not going to slap you around unless you do something really stupid with it.

[hedgehorn]

what would be a decent price for a used ruger old army?

[JesterGrin_1]

what would be a decent price for a used ruger old army?

I wish I could help but I will say they seem to be going up very fast since Ruger has decided to no longer produce the gun. :(

If you do not wish to have something that is correct for the time the Ruger is the BEST black powder gun that you can beg,borrow or steal okay or purchase lol. :)

[Leftoverdj]

Since you plan to shoot it heavily and want Civil War looks, I would strongly suggest a Remington copy. They are far stronger than the opentops. Mine is one of the the Remington Navys that Uberti made for Navy Arms back around 1970.

It's due for a new set of nipples. Anyone got a suggestion and a good source on that? Also does anyone have a source for a socket type nipple wrench. I have one around somewhere, but it's easier to buy another than search for it. IMHO, the prong type wrenches are about useless. For that matter, is anyone making hex head nipples?

[Saint]

Couple a things-

Saint - The Pietta LeMat is a nine shot .44 caliber, not .42, that was the original caliber. Pietta recommends .440 balls. I've gotten excellent support from Pietta. The weak spot is the ram holder, just a piece of spring steel punched for a screw and bent. It breaks easily.

It's easy to make your own under ball wads. Pure wool weather stripping and your lube, melt the lube and soak the stripping, then press out about 1/3 of the lube. Let cool. Cut to the proper size.

I've used these for years. Never left one loaded to see if it contaminated the powder, tho!

I was speaking in regards to the original caliber, but thanks. Also I checked at Lowes several times and nobody has ever heard of this wool weather stripping, where would I go to find it?

[xtimberman]

Ahhh, the joys of Big Box hardware shopping. That item is probably stocked in my nearest Lowes and Home Depot both - stored away on a high shelf and unknown to the hired hands who rotate through on their short employment stints.

The last of that weatherstripping stuff I bought was at a True Value Hardware store. It wasn't advertised or labeled as wool weatherstripping - it was called felt weatherstripping, and the fine print identified it as being wool. It also had some thin aluminum stiffening crimped onto it which I pulled off and threw away. They had run out of the felt-only 'stripping.

xtm

[Wayne Smith]

From what I knew three years ago the Frost King brand was the only one that had no synthetic in it. I bought a bunch at my local True Value store. I'd have to do the research again to be assured that what I bought now was true wool felt.

[bobk]

jlchucker,
I sure agree with you about letting it happen naturally, in the holster. I would like to get an 1851 as a using gun. I have a 2nd Model Dragoon, waiting for the weather to break to shoot it, catching up on outside chores, now. I have a holster that fits, but it's hardly "period." Lot easier to find 1851 holsters. I have a full flap, but I want to get a nice open top holster. Any ideas?
Bob K

[JIMinPHX]

It's due for a new set of nipples. Anyone got a suggestion and a good source on that?

Try vendor's row at the SASS events.

[JIMinPHX]

jlchucker,
I have a holster that fits, but it's hardly "period." Lot easier to find 1851 holsters. I have a full flap, but I want to get a nice open top holster. Any ideas?
Bob K

How about this?

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/links/link.jsp?id=0006180211076a&type=product&cmCat=SEARCH&returnPage=search-results1.jsp&No=90&noImage=0&Ntt=holster&Ntk=Products&QueryText=holster&Ntx=matchall&N=4887&Nty=1

[JIMinPHX]

It's due for a new set of nipples. Anyone got a suggestion and a good source on that?

I saw the stainless steel ones for a Pietta on the shelf at Cabella's in Glendale yesterday.

[calsite]

That's pretty soft lead. I've always used the same lead that I used for my Flintlock in the
C n B's I've owned. I guess you could use harder if you wanted.

[jleneave]

Alright guys, I have decided to go with the Uberti 1860 steel framed revolver. I want to thank everyone that helped me. I appreciate the time that ya'll took to reply to this post.

I do want to ask this last question then I will leave everybody alone. I know that I am going to need to slug the barrel and cylinders to get the best size round balls. But, I was wondering if anyone that has one of these revolvers could telll me what size balls that they are using or what size balls Uberti recommends. I don't know anyone that shoots these type of firearms so I can't get any from a friend. I didn't want to have to order 3 or 4 different sized round balls right off the bat. Thanks.

Jody

[jlchucker]

Jody, If you just go down to your favorite gunshop and buy a box of Hornaday .454 lead balls you should be a happy camper. I have yet to find a repro 44 that didn't work very nicely with that diameter. Even if the book says .451, all that will happen when you push the .454 soft lead balls into the chambers is that a little lead ring of excess lead will be shaved off. This will let you know that you have a nice tight fit. Fill the rest of each chamber with the lube of your choice ( I use borebutter or Crisco--either works fine) and then put on the caps--you'll be ready to shoot. CAUTION: when loading, put the caps on as the VERY LAST STEP. Good luck.

[JIMinPHX]

Most .44 C&Bs are happy with .454s. You can usually buy a "starter kit" with a small supply of balls, a powder flask, a nipple wrench, a nipple pick, a capper, a powder measure, sometimes wads & a small tube of lube for about $30. It's a good deal if you're just starting out with these things. The kits usually have everything that you need except for caps & powder. That should be a good place to start & the small supply of balls (usually around 25-30) should be enough for you to test it out & see how it works. Don't bother slugging anything unless you have accuracy problems. Chances are that it will be fine right out of the box. Most of them are these days.

[yeahbub]

jleneave,

There's two other alternatives in the realm of propellants: GOEX "Pinnacle" FFFg, http://www.goexpowder.com/product-ezload.html and American "Pioneer" FFFG, http://www.americanpioneerpowder.com/, neither of which have shown any corrosive after-effects at all that I've been able to determine. They leave little residue and the fouling is water soluble and comes right out with a couple of moist patches. Both are readily compressible at loading, which makes them very forgiving when experimenting with charge amounts, enabling you to get the ball or conical boolit all the way in. Since switching to these propellants, my revolvers have not needed the disassembly/toothbrush detail cleaning in a year or two. With genuine black powder, especially "777" and Pyrodex, prompt detail strippning and cleaning that day has been a necessity, particularly in humid weather. I spent one evening putting some 777 through it's paces and was impressed with the energy it contains, but was interrupted by some minor annoyance elsewhere. The next morning, I was shocked at the rust that was sprouting in bore, chambers and various nooks and crannies 12 hours later. While they are very good propellants, apparently 777 and Pyrodex are "oxidizer rich" and whatever's left after combustion will promply go to work on the steel.

One other thing regarding loading your pistol for top accuracy. I've found the use of an over-the-powder card wad cut from a cereal box to be useful in avoiding squeezing Wonder Wad lube into the powder when seating a boolit in the chamber. There's not a lot of it in them, but I prefer to keep the lube in the wad and the difference is reflected in tighter groups.

Here endeth my two farthing's worth.

[AZ-Stew]

I found this on the web:

http://www.chuckhawks.com/index2h.muzzleloader.htm

Lots of articles. I haven't read them all, but there should be plenty of good advice there.

Regards,

Stew

[Saint]

Also keep in mind that shaving off a little lead while loading gives more surface area to contact the rifling of the barrel. I find that in my 1851 navy .44 that anything less than .454 does not engage the rifling enough and hurts accuracy. It could just be in my head but this is what a lot of the texts on the subject indicate.

[jleneave]

Thank each of your for your replies. One more thing I forgot that JIMinPHX's reply made me remember is what size caps to use #10 or #11? Or will I need to try both to see which one fits my nipples (that sounds funny)?? Thanks again, it seems like when I think I have it figured out something else pops up, sorry, I know ya'll probably wish this thread would just die. I don't think I would have tried cap n ball without all of ya'lls advice and help.

[405]

I would strongly consider the Ruger Old Army. I have original Colts and Remingtons from CW era and really can't justify shooting any of them :(
So that leaves modern made alternatives. Regardless of design they are MODERN. Even most of the close clones from Italy are from Italy. Think about that a little.

The ROA is a Ruger and no Rugers are single action original clones.... but they are made in US. But act sooner rather than later... while there are still a few around..... the prices are going up steadily and approaching your budget limit.

Finally, you might even consider a stainless gun.... ugh, gack, unholy as that sounds!!! amost a hangin' offense to say stainless cap n ball together:mrgreen:

The major reason I don't shoot any of the original CW cap n ball guns is not the wear of firing.... it is the black powder smoke and residue that invades every nook and cranny of a cap n ball revolver. So every once in a while and often if shot often all the innards have to be pulled apart and completely cleaned. For an original gun, that in time, will destroy the value.... even turning the screws will hurt value. Just some thoughts about other angles to consider.

[Saint]

I still have the original nipples on my Pietta 1851. I was shooting for months with #10 caps and the caps would only fire about 50 percent of the time. I determined that the nipples were too big and the caps were not seating all of the way onto the nipple. I moved to #11 caps and have not had a problem since. Be sure to pinch the caps before putting them on. I had a chain fire once with all of the cylinders covered in grease. As far as I can tell one of the caps fell off of a nipple and the flames got out through the nipple upon firing and went back through the next nipple as the chain fire came a split second after the shot. Fortunately the gun and all of my fingers survived intact. Also safety glasses are very important (I know this goes without saying for any responsible shooter). I have found percussion caps prone to explosive fragmentation upon firing my pistol. Good luck and have fun.

[xtimberman]

I have found percussion caps prone to explosive fragmentation upon firing my pistol. Good luck and have fun.


I just found those two sentences disconcerting and funny at the same time. :)


I've shot 1851 Navy revolvers since the mid 1970s and have never had a chain-fire and have never seen anyone else have one either. I just assumed that we were all plenty careful and had our procedures worked out to prevent that from ever happening.

After reading the comments in this thread, I'm going to re-evaluate my procedures on both ends of the cylinder.

xtm

[JIMinPHX]

Explosive fragmentation of the caps upon firing is a sign of the caps fitting too tight. Needing to pinch the caps to make them stay on is a sign of them being too loose. If you can’t find caps that fit properly, then either change your nipples or refit them to grip the caps properly. This is both an aggravation & a safety issue.

[StrawHat]

As far as I can tell one of the caps fell off of a nipple and the flames got out through the nipple upon firing and went back through the next nipple as the chain fire came a split second after the shot. Good luck and have fun.

To prove how safe his guns were Colt, as in Sam, would load one of his cap and ball guns and instead of grease over the balls, he would sprinkle black powder! If the caps were the correct size there was no chain firing.

I read about this in one of the gun rags and heard it again when I visited the Colt factory in the late 60s.

According to Colt and Colts, chain firing is a breech problem not a chamber problem.

I have not greased the cylinder since the 70s and I've not had a chain firing.

Some will advise otherwise.

[Saint]

Explosive fragmentation of the caps upon firing is a sign of the caps fitting too tight. Needing to pinch the caps to make them stay on is a sign of them being too loose. If you can’t find caps that fit properly, then either change your nipples or refit them to grip the caps properly. This is both an aggravation & a safety issue.
Actually the #11 caps I use do have to be pinched to stay on. This is something that appears to be common to C&B as I have known many others with the same issue. I don't think the fragments are even moving fast enough to do any serious eye damage but it is still not a risk I would like to take therefore eye always use my shooting glasses.

[JIMinPHX]

I also know several people who pinch their caps to keep them on the nipples. On single shot rifles, it’s not a big deal, because there is no danger of chainfire. In a C&B revolver, it’s not a real good idea.

The fragmentation of tight fitting caps is kind of a P.I.T.A. The fragments can get caught up in the lock works & jam up the mechanism. I had that situation more than once. Before I refit the nipples on the my 1851, I was lucky if I could get through a whole cylinder full of shots before a fragment would jam it up & stop the hammer from falling. Also, like you said, if you’re not wearing glasses, you could get a fragment in the eye.

[floodgate]

JIMinPHX:

Remember the old Westerns, where the shooters would th'ow their revolavers up and back over their shoulders when cocking them? From many years' experience with the old C&B's (many originals, back in the '50's and '60's), I have always felt that this was to flip the cap fragments free of the action. NOT the thing to do at modern ranges, though; so I have learned to roll the piece smartly to the right (keeping the muzzle down-range!) as I cock it, with the same result. Also seems to help spin a sticky cylinder as the fouling builds up.

Doug

[sundog]

Yeah, Doug, and that quick follow up shot could be done 'gangsta' style. No need to rotate it it back up into 'cowboy' position. Just install an extra front sight on the left side of the barrel :mrgreen:

[JIMinPHX]

Left side of the barrel? You must be left-handed or something.

[hedgehorn]

I have been following this thread since the start. I too have been looking for a cap and ball revolver. I see dixie gun works has a Uberti Remington New Model Army for 285.00 and I also see the ROA on gun broker for around 380.00. My question is the Ruger $100 dollars better even if its used or would you all rather have a new Uberti?

[floodgate]

hedgehorn:

Depends whether you want stone rugged and reliable (Ruger OA) or more authentic-looking and quite good enough (Uberti). Looks like a Remington in your avatar, so maybe you've already made up your mind. I sold my ROA a long while back, but still have two Navy Arms Co. Remingtons (a cased double set) that I've had since the '70's.

JIM:

"Sundog" is being cute, visualizing leaving the revolver sideways and shooting it that way in the same manner(!) as the "gangsta' wannabees" shoot their semi-autos. I turn mine back upright after flipping the cap fragments free.

floodgate

[jleneave]

I just thought that everyone who helped me out would like to know which revolver that I chose to get..........I went witht the Uberti 1860 steel frame. I ordered it from Midway and of course it is on back order, but I checked with Dixie Gun Works and Taylor's and they were back ordered also. While trying to make up my mind on this one I saw a few others that I would have liked to have. If everything goes good with this one I just might expand my collection with a few more cap and ball revolvers and dare I say it, maybe a rifle or two. This dang website is costing me a lot of money!!

I want to thank everyone who replied to this post again, I really appreciate all the help you guys gave me. I am sure I will have more questions once it gets here. I will try not to bug ya'll too much. Thanks again!!

Jody

[StrawHat]

This dang website is costing me a lot of money!!

Thanks again!!Jody

You ain't seen nothing yet!

[JIMinPHX]

JIM:

"Sundog" is being cute, visualizing of leaving the revolver sideways and shooting it that way in the same manner(!) as the "gangsta' wannabees" shoot their semi-autos. I turn mine back upright after flipping the cap fragments free.

floodgate

I was just trying to be cute in return by saying that his joke would have referred to a left handed person since he chose the left side.

I actually saw a picture one time of a Glock that someone had side mounted sights on. They called it the "homme" modification. It actually has been done.

[yeahbub]

JIMinPHX, I remember that website. They had a number of "gag" products poking fun at contemporary misconceptions. They had a number of downloadable video demonstartions of their "products" as well. I particularly liked the "nuclear .50 cal Br. round" demo-gone-bad vid. I've no idea if anyone actually tried to modify their Glock that way. I have to wonder how many "orders" they received for what was on the site. :-D

[floodgate]

One thing just popped up in my aging memory, concerning swapping nipples on C&B revolavers. Back in the early '50's, I got my first one, an original Colt 1860 Army in sound but worn condition. I took it down and refinished it (I know, I know! But then you could buy all you could haul off at $25 or less apiece.) The nipples were badly battered so I got a couple of sets at Bannerman's - along with an original issue nipple wrench and a non-Colt .44 iron mould - and replaced them. I loaded up with FFg and let fly. There was a BIG BANG! and I looked down to see five empty chambers, lead smears down both sides of the barrel, and my rammer assembly bouncing off down-range. The nipples, I found (the hard way!), were too long, and all but the one in firing position and the one on the right over the capping groove had hit the recoil shield and fired off their caps on impact. I had a spare rammer (more Bannerman surplus), but the rammer sleeve below the barrel was cracked on one side. I scrapped the piece out for parts. I've tinkered with originals and replicas many times since, and have never run into over-long nipples again; but it IS something to be aware of, at least on Colts. (Remingtons seem to have adequate clearance.)

Just thought I oughta mention it.

floodgate

[Ricochet]

Thanks for the warning, Floodgate! I'd never thought of that happening.

[jleneave]

You ain't seen nothing yet!

That's what I am afraid of!! I am going to have to hide my check book from myself!!

Floodgate, that is a scary thought. I bet when that happened you had to change your underwear!!

[hedgehorn]

Walked into a local pawn shop today and found a pristine ROA stainless for $350. I may have paid too much but I haven't seen any others locally

[StrawHat]

Walked into a local pawn shop today and found a pristine ROA stainless for $350. I may have paid too much but I haven't seen any others locally

Someone once told me he never paid to much for a gun, he just bought them a year or two early.[smilie=1:

[Old Ironsights]

Walked into a local pawn shop today and found a pristine ROA stainless for $350. I may have paid too much but I haven't seen any others locally

NO, you did fine... considering they aren't being made any more.

[Old Ironsights]

I was just trying to be cute in return by saying that his joke would have referred to a left handed person since he chose the left side.

I actually saw a picture one time of a Glock that someone had side mounted sights on. They called it the "homme" modification. It actually has been done.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/nyte-sytes.jpg
[smilie=1:

[OeldeWolf]

I have had a trio of Pieta copies of hte 1860 Colts. I got them used through a friend who used to do gunsmithing, from a friend of his.

He told me that a way to cure the breakage of the trigger/hand spring was to put a very thin piece of leathger between the spring and the frame. With a hole in it for the screw, of course. I have also heard that a quick dip of the sprong end in plastic tool dip works as well.

I rinse my pistol pieces in hot water from a metal tea kettle, most of the parts then flash dry in just seconds.

I use a tea strainer to hold the smaller parts for washing and rinsing. A screw down the drain can end your fun till some new ones show up in the mail.

I carry a full set of nipples, a set of screws, a coupls extra trigger/hand springs, and a spare barrel wedge in my BP range box. I have a pair of extra hands in the parts box at home.

I have a LEE mould in the size .451 to cast ball for my pistols. There is a thin ring shaved off when I seat them.

I also use the loading lever to make sure the wonder wad is set tightly on the powder.

Around here, I can leave a pistol loaded for a week with no problem. Past that length of time, I can get a cyl or two that are smokier and less powerful. I did this for several months.

The easiest way to unload a C&B weapon is to fire it. It can be done otherwise, and I am making a device to pull the baslls out with a screw. But without making up a tool, discharging the firearm is the easiest way. That said, they do have a CO2 powered device to unload cylinders. It is screwed in where the nipples usually go.

[xtimberman]

This thread has wandered around all over the place!

Here is a photo of a screwdriver-looking doodad I picked out of the 25 cent bin at the local True Value. I wish now that I'd bought all of them so I could give 'em away. Sometimes I'm not able to shoot my C&B revolver to unload it - or maybe just want to freshen up the load with new powder. (I've found that most types of lubricating grease, if left in the cylinder/chamber long enough, will contaminate the powder unless protected inside a paper "cartridge".)

I remove the uncapped cylinder from the revolver and screw the threaded end into the bullet. It doesn't take much effort to get enough thread in the ball to pull it out. If the bullet wants to turn, it can just be picked out anyway.

I keep meaning to install a nice wood handle instead of the plastic - too many little projects ahead of it.

xtm

[Ricochet]

That is a cool tool!

[jleneave]

Xtimberman, You are right this thread has went all over the place, but it is full of good info. That's a handy looking little tool you have there. I will keep my eye out for something like that.

[Old Ironsights]

My next C&B will be a NAA "Companion" with the longer "mag" cylinder.

Can't think of a C&B gun I would shoot more than a pocketable .22... [smilie=1:

[jleneave]

Old Ironsights, I already have one of the NAA mini .22LR revolvers. It is a pretty handy little gun.

Jody

[Old Ironsights]

But in C&B they are even more interesting. You can shoot them with the #10 cap only like a little pellet gun, or you can load it up and make smoke.

[xtimberman]

http://www.naaminis.com/naac&b.html

That is one neat little revolver! I live in such a vacuum, I never knew NAA made black powder revolvers.

JMO, but I wish they made one just a little larger.

xtm

[jleneave]

Hey everyone, I want to thank you all again for the help. I thought that I would update this thread and let ya'll know what I ended up getting and how it is going. I ordered one of the Uberti Model 1860 Army revolvers with the steel color case hardened frame back in March when they went on sale. It was back ordered for over a month. I have only had it for a few weeks, but so far I am very satisfied with it. This is the first black powder/muzzle loading firearm of any type that I have ever owned. I have shot it a few times and it shoots about 6" high at 20 yards with both Speer and home cast .454” round balls over 24grs of either Pyrodex or Goex. I haven't had a chance to shoot it at any further distances. I am very happy with the quality and workmanship. I just wish that the color case hardening on the frame looked as good as it does on the bullet seating lever! The wood used in the grips is absolutely gorgeous!! They look 100 times better than the grips on any of my Ruger Blackhawks or any other revolvers that I own for that matter!! They are really dark grained with a clear coat on them that makes them shiny. I would love to have grips that look as good as these on my other handguns! It looks and feels so good in my hands that I can hardly put it down. I am thinking very seriously about ordering a second one, that is if Midway ever gets them back in stock. They must be hard to keep in stock because every other website I have checked shows them to be back ordered too. I only have limited experience with it so far, but at this point I would recommend this cap 'n ball revolver to anyone in the market for one. If you can find one of these go ahead and get it, you won’t be disappointed. If anyone has any other advise that would help me out with shooting this revolver please feel free to jump in. Like I said above, I don't have much experience with black powder guns and I could use all the help I can get. Thanks again.

Jody

[OeldeWolf]

Sounds like you are well and truly infected now. <evil grin> So now you have yet another aspect of this great sport to acquire for.

Are you using a flask that automatically measures your powder charge for you? I took a Colt Walker flask from Cabela's, and soldered on a curved brass extension so it would work with my 1860's. Made the time at the range even more fun, and reduced loading time considerably. I also use a Ted Cash capper, the snail version, also from Cabela's.

[river-rider]

Ruger Old Army. I always keep one in the gunlocker. I will trade off guns to get new guns but the ROA always stays in the gunlocker.

[floodgate]

Oeldewolfe, etc.:

It is generally recommended NOTto load directly from a horn or flask with a built-in measuring spout, in case a lingering spark should set the whole sheBANG (sorry!) off. That said, I do load that way with my C&B revolvers> The problem really arises primarily in pieces loaded with paper cartridges, which may not be fully consumed on firing.

I just wanted to state this "for the record"

Floodgate

[jleneave]

OeldeWolf, yes I am definitely infected!! I love the sound of that revolver being cocked! I have two different flasks, one is a brass tube that takes screw on spouts and the other is a Pedersoli (sp?) copper flask with a round bottom that also take the screw on spouts. I have one filled with Goex and the other with Pyrodex and I have a label on each one with which powder is in which. At this time I don’t have a capper and I have been putting the caps on my hand, but I can tell already that I am going to have to get a capper. My fingers are a little too big to put those tiny caps on those tiny nipples!! I will check out the one that you mentioned in you post.

River-Rider, I have thought about trying to find a ROA before they get too hard to find. I am sure that the price will start climbing on them very soon, if it hasn’t already.

Thanks for the replies.

Jody

[steif]

I would think for the moolah you are thinking of spending, a good one to start with would be 2...lol... get a pietta 51 navy and a pietta 60 army, and moulds to match. I like both these revolvers and they are a real hoot to shoot!
Stay away from brass framed revolvers, although they will work for most, just a few shots here and there, but they are known to wear out and the frame stretches, then they are useless.

once you get into shooting a C&B it's fun!
I would get some wonder wads to use, it's just so simple to put the powder in then the wad, then ram the ball home. no grease no mess until you clean it....lol..

fun times!