Has anybody used 777 in a .58 Minie rifle? [Archive]

omgb

10-02-2005, 02:12 AM

Both 777 and Pyrodex worry me. I've seen plenty in print from no less than Bill Knight who all say that these powders can have disasterous corrosive effects if any amonia is allowed to get into the bore. A prime case often cited is a guy fires a few rounds and swabs his bore with a damp patch. Then he figures to get down to some real cleaning later so he runs a Hoppes patch or Butche's bore cleaner down it and sets it aside to soak over night. Next day the barrel is ruined with rust. Evidently it can happen in just a few hours, four or less actually. Also, some claim Pyrodex is errosive to barrels.

The former I believe is well documented but the latter may just be bunk..I don't really know. This I do know though, BP cleans with water and doesn't destroy barrels over night. So, in BP firearms, I stick with it.

waksupi

10-02-2005, 10:41 PM

Pryodex is corrosive. Grind a piece of steel to bare metal, and flash a pile of BP, and a pile of Pyrodex. Put it away where it can attract moisture for a few weeks. Wash it off, and the Pyro side will be more corroded than the BP side.

StarMetal

10-02-2005, 11:50 PM

PatMarlin

10-03-2005, 01:34 AM

I was thinking of trying 777, and was wondering how it performs in the cold damp weather?

Have you guys heard of the new Black Mag3?

Supoosed to be near zero fouling, but it's like $22 bucks a pound. I don't clean with water, I use FirePower FP-10 lube, as I know the inventor, and even BP gun writer Sam Fadala used it extensively with his Black Powder Rifles.

It nuetralizes fouling immediately, and makes clean up much easier. Plus I believe it improves accuracy. My BP arms are spotless.

waksupi

10-03-2005, 10:55 AM

Ric

That's true what you say of Pyrodex, but what importance is it? I mean you are suppose to clean your muzzleloader asap. You could say the same of corrosive military ammo, which basically the primer has the corrosive mixture. Bare some steel and somehow flash a military corrosive primer off on it and then a new modern primer and set it aside somewhere and see which corrodes first. I've shot Pyrodex for years and have zero problems or rust with the guns I've shot it out of. Is this a pitch for Pyrodex? No...I just happen to like BP better because it fun and it's what started the gun business.

Joe

Joe, my point is, that when Pyrodex appeared on the market, it was made to sound as though a person didn't need to clean the rifle after shooting, and some shooters still believe this. I don't know if they have a caveat on thier packaging about cleaning, or not. Just a word to the wise, was all.

omgb

10-03-2005, 07:23 PM

And my point was this: DO NOT USE ANY SOLVENT CONTAINING AMONIA with either 777 or Pyrodex. It will destroy your barrel in as few as 4 hours time. Water and these two are OK. Letting them sit over night is most likely OK too. Just keep amonia out of them or you will have one heck of a mess real pronto-like.

R J TAlley

44man

10-07-2005, 11:31 AM

I used Pyrodex for a long time in my Hawkin and it is the devil to clean out. It takes several cleanings over days to get most of it out. I have not found any rust preventative or oil that will stop it from having some effect on the bore. I tried it in BPCR's and plugs of it would exit the muzzle and burn in the grass like flares.
Loose 777 in a traditional muzzle loader shoots terrible. You can not put any pressure at all on it or groups go to hell. It is very hard to detect when the ball just touches the powder and any variation in this will blow the accuracy. The pellets work real good in the inlines though and if I had an inline, these would be my preference. Friends come over to shoot so I get to try a lot of powders. I have not tried the pellets in my Hawkin because I have switched to Swiss Black and will never use anything else from now on. My other rifles are flinters so the fake stuff stays out of them too. Swiss FFFG in my cap and ball gives the best accuracy and velocity of any powder. It turns the Ruger into a magnum and thumps deer as good as the .44 mag.
All in all, Pyrodex is the dirtiest, hardest to clean and hardest on the bore powder ever made.
777 does NOT work in the cap and ball or BPCR's. Since it does not like any compression, not enough can be put in to make it work.
No one will ever make a powder as good as plain old black.

StarMetal

10-07-2005, 12:05 PM

44man,

Well, as Jack Benny use to say, it's apparent you don't like Pyrodex. I too have used Pyrodex for alot of years. In my opinion it cleans out just about the same as BP. My BP firearms have set at times for a LONG time. I get zero rust. I have found that Pyrodex gets the highest velocity out of my Ruger cap n ball. Went you can prove to me that your Ruger gets 1300-1400 fps with a 240 gr bullet let us know. I just don't believe that Swiss BP turns it into a 44 mag. Far as 777, used that too. It is even more powerful then Pyrodex and just listening to the muzzle blast from it tells you something more is going on then Pyrodex and BP. Instead of the usual BOOM, it cracks like a high powered rifle. The only thing I can say negative about Pyrodex is I think it's more corrosive then BP.

Pyrodex is the only successful BP alternate that has made it into the market. Those others you hear about from time to time are not very good. One thing Pyrodex has over BP is it's classified as a different material and more places can sell it that don't want to put up with the hassle of BP regulations and licenses.

Again, I'm not a proponant of Pyrodex, as I'd much rather use BP because, well, I like it. We can't get BP easily in my area and we can't get enough fellows together to buy BP by the case to make it worth while.

Joe

omgb

10-07-2005, 02:01 PM

It's funny. I tried 777 in cartridge and ML. The ignition in ML was not very quick. It BPCR, I got lots of velocity, that "crack" starmetal was refering to and according to my Chrony, a ton of velocity. Shoot, with a 530 Postel in a 45-90 case I was clocking 1575 fps. But, the variation was as much a 100 fps. I used Pyrodex too. I began using it in 77 or so and more recently in 2003-04. It works but it's not cheap, it doesn't give as consistant velocities as does BP and it is harder to clean the brass afterword. So, when Bill Knight published his findings on corrosian I switched back to BP and gave up on the subs.
R J Talley

StarMetal

10-07-2005, 03:13 PM

omgb

Maybe my good results with 777 in my inline is because I'm using the 209 shotgun primer for ignition.

Joe

omgb

10-07-2005, 04:52 PM

I think that the pellets might give better consistancy because the compression factor is always the same. I also suspect that 777 was designed with the in-line ML shooter in mind. PErhaps with BPCR I might have gotten bettter results with more experimentation but it was awful expensive in comparison to BP. Since I'd never be able to use it in comptetition there just wasn't much incentive to pursue it much further.
R J Talley

44man

10-07-2005, 10:09 PM

I have been searching for my chrono readings from the Ruger OA and can't find the 777 readings. I didn't fool with it much because of the high SD and poor accuracy. The more I added, the worse it got.
My velocity with Goex FFFG was 914 fps and with Swiss it was 1102 fps. 1102 fps is faster then I ever got with Pyrocrap too. If you claim 1200 to 1300, I don't know where you are getting it from! I don't remember 777 going that fast, so I will chrono it again and post. I do remember putting only enough in so the ball would touch it which reduced the velocity. Compressing it makes it go haywire. I compressed some in a cartridge and it completely crushed all the grains. Stuff was finer then FFFFG and if you are shooting it like that, you are really getting high pressures. That is the reason for high SD's. The stuff breaks.
The right size pellet for the C&B might work.
Swiss black powder cleans up so easy it is unreal. 2 wet patches in my BPCR and patches are white. Pyrodex takes 20 patches and the next day more black comes out. The stuff gets in the pores of the steel. I went to a shoot and forgot my corrosion spray. I was only an hour from home so I cleaned the gun and put it in the car and came right home. The stuff rusted all around the nipple and took off the brown. The bore had a film of rust too even though my bore cleaner had anti rust in it.
Goex is dirty but still cleans easier then Pyrocrap.
It makes no sense to cram a bunch of 777 in the C&B, crush it to get high velocity and not be able to hit anything. At least in a ML rifle, you can add more and avoid crushing it to get more speed and maintain accuracy. The best bet with the stuff is still the pellets. Trouble is that it is hard to ignite and the shotshell primers work the best. So the inline is where it excells.

44man

10-07-2005, 10:30 PM

I found some readings taken with Pyrocrap in a Remington buffalo hunter C&B with a 12" barrel. Using a 45 gr volume measure we got 1187 fps. Now how much do we deduct for the 7-1/2" Ruger barrel? And since most of you are using the 40 gr measure, how much more do we deduct? The SD was 32.5 and the MAD was 92.3 fps.
It looks to me like Swiss has it beat!
We also tried filling the cylinder right to the top and forcing in the ball. Velocity went down to 1096, SD 57.8 and MAD 40.1 fps. Yes, you can compress Pyrocap but not 777.

StarMetal

10-07-2005, 10:37 PM

44man

Who claimed 1200-1300 fps? ...and in what, with what? Not I.

I've let my guns actually set for most the day after shooting Pyrodex and don't have ANY rust. I'm wondering if you got ahold of an experimental batch that got out of the plant by mistake.

As soon as I get somemore No 11 percussion caps I"ll be exprimenting again.

Joe

PatMarlin

10-08-2005, 12:21 AM

I just bought some 777 to try. I can't get any black powder around here cause it's classified as an "explosive".. Kalifornia no, no.

Pyro definately seems more corrosive, but actually the best stuff I have used so far is Clean Shot. It hardly fouls, and is accurate in my hawken for sure.

I hear nothing but praise for the new Black Mag3.

I had a keg of Dupont BP as a kid, and we had all kind of fun with that stuff. Used to put a small pile in a Planters Peanut can- walk up and drop a match in it, and make mushroom clouds. Used to blow them cans in the sky with it too.

I loved that stuff.. :mrgreen:

44man

10-08-2005, 01:58 PM

Star, let's face the facts! over 1100 fps is MAGNUM velocity in a C&B. You were talking about 1300 to 1400 fps. I don't even shoot that fast in my smokeless magnums with the exception of the 45-70. You were also talking about a BOOLIT, not a round ball. I use nothing but round balls because the Ruger C&B will only hold 32 gr's by volume of powder with a boolit. It would be tough to get between 800 and 900 fps with a boolit. Most likely a lot less.
Tell me exactly what velocity you get from your Ruger with Pyrocrap. I know for a fact that Swiss will not only shoot faster but is much more accurate.
If you read my posts you will see that I have nothing but praise for the 777 pellets in the inlines and I recommend all of my friends to buy them.
I used a lot of Pyrocrap in my ROA until I started to hunt deer with it. I shot at three deer the first season and was hitting the ground under them. I went down to my range and shot at steel from the same distance I was missing the deer at. I tore up the ground under the plate. I waited a few days and went back down to try again and this time I was dead center in the plate. What was the difference? THE WEATHER and temperature! I switched to Swiss and killed two deer. Pyrocrap will never again go in my C&B.
I would recommend that you find some Swiss powder. You will NEVER go back to anything else. Any other black powder will not equal Swiss.
The reason my gun rusted so fast was because I cleaned it. The Pyrocrap residue was still in the steel pores. I have done the same thing with black powder without rust. If I would have waited until I got home to clean it, I would have been better off. Sometimes it pays to leave the gun dirty. That stuff has something in it that goes deep into the steel. Cleaning with very hot water to open the pores is the only way to get all of it out. Black only needs cold water.

StarMetal

10-08-2005, 02:33 PM

44man,

I use a Lyman mould that I bought back in the 70's that was made by them for the Remington cap n ball army revolver. It's a hollowbase conical with two lube grooves. I forget exactly what amount of powder I get in my Ruger with that bullet, but it's more then 30 some grains. Like I said when I get some caps I'll chrono and everything. I've also shot 230 gr FMJ RN 45 acp bullets out of my Ruger along with the RCBS 255 SWC. I've on occassion cut ragged holes at 25 yds with that Lyman conical using both BP and Pyrodex. I know using Dupont BP tied my Ruger up in about 24 shots whereas the Pyrodex would go on forever.

I shot a few deer when I lived in Ohio with my TC Firestorm using the 370 Maxi-Ball and 110 grs of Pyrodex. Eighty yards was the closest shot. With that load my TC with cut a few holes and settle in around two inches at 100 yards off the bench. It wears a 2.5 to 5 power scope.

You know they claim the Walker Dragoon Colt was most powerful pistol until the advent of the 357 Magnum. Just about any gun can achieve 1100 fps even the 45 acp with lighter then the standard 230 gr load. I wouldn't exactly call it a magnum. I just recently shot some WW 296 out of my 30 Luger, which has a shorter barrel then 4 inches and got 1300 fps easy. Magnum? No, I wouldn't say so.

I believe you about the 777, I just can tell you don't like Pyrodex. 777 is different.

Joe

44man

10-08-2005, 08:31 PM

Star, I used Pyrodex in my Hawkin for years, killed a pile of deer and won many shoots with it. It does work in some guns. It just does not make me happy in the C&B. Other then being hard to clean in my rifle, it never gave me any trouble even at 200 meters. I busted 4 chickens in a row at 200, offhand, one day. I never said I didn't like it, just doesn't work good in some types of guns. Black powder works in every gun so it is my choice from now on.
I wasn't trying to compare the C&B to a modern magnum, only to other loads in the C&B. Swiss brings it into a whole new realm. It really does turn it into a magnum, but a C&B magnum. Does a job on deer you would not believe. I am not comparing apples to oranges, just little apples to larger apples. You have to try it to see what I mean.

44man

10-08-2005, 08:41 PM

Hey star, to keep the gun from tying up, use STP oil treatment on the cylinder pin and ratchet. (or RCBS case lube) Another tip is to use BPCR lube in front of a ball or in the grooves of a boolit. Put some in front of boolits too. It will not blow away from the next chambers when you shoot. Crisco type lubes just blow away. I like the Mathews lube with Neutrogena soap for the C&B. Makes clean up a breeze too.

StarMetal

10-08-2005, 09:55 PM

44man

Never had the cylinder or ratch tie up. It's the hammer. It gets so much crap in the hammer slot it jams the hammer. Pyrodex doesn't do that, in fact it doesn't get past a certain degree of fouling which is far far less then BP. I've been playing with BP since way back in Junior highschool, which is a long long time ago. I've tried just about every lube known to man and I've also mixed soap with my lube too. Nothing new in the world huh

Joe

9.3X62AL

10-09-2005, 12:48 AM

I've never tried any of the replica powders. They seem to me overall to be more trouble to deal with than the good old Holy Black. It's been nothing but Goex until very recently, when I had to bum some of the Swiss from Buckshot for my T/C Hawken 54 with RB twist barrel. It seems to be a little more powerful to me in my years-old 60 grain RB target load than the Goex, hit a little higher at 50 yards, and lost no accuracy from the bags. Of course, standing on my hind legs made things go permanently southbound, but that happens with the more modern war toys too--so no fault of the fuel, in other words.

I just clean the rifle or revolver in a timely fashion, and haven't had any rust issues. At all. I just accept the timely cleaning as a "cost" of doing business with the older classic propellant, and I enjoy the old charcoal burners enough to put up with their quirks and requirements. Compared with copper fouling, even the most fouled-out BP bore is a day at the beach maintenence-wise. I guess it never occurred to me to be bothered by the BP regimen.

44man

10-09-2005, 12:52 AM

That sounds more like cap particles getting into the works. I have never had the hammer do that. Gone through 200 balls in a day with Swiss without a hitch. I like the Remington caps because they open and fall off the nipples, but they don't break into pieces.

StarMetal

10-09-2005, 12:57 AM

44man

Geez, I'm not some 4 yr old. It's not caps particles. It literally gets a build up of blackpowder fouling on the sides of the hammer and on the sides of the hammer slot. It doesn't really tie the gun up, it just get alittle harder to cock the hammer. And no it's not blowing the caps off the nipples and flashing back through the firing pin slot, but apparently some blowby is. The caps either are still on the nipples intact, or on the nipples an one side split. Some of them fall off, some of them don't. Had two of these Rugers and the both display similarities. They both shot really accurate too.

Joe

Buckshot

10-09-2005, 06:39 AM

............When I got out of the Navy in '73 I stopped by my dad's folks in Jonesboro, AR. Went by a hardware store for some reason or other but did end up buying a NIB Ruger OA, for $125. I shot the crap outta that thing and never did have any binding issues with it. For the most part my lube was the cheapest stuff I could make and that was Crisco and Beeswax.

http://www.fototime.com/DA1E60ADE766CFA/standard.jpg
These 2 targets were fired at 50 yards a couple years ago. Those charge weights are the volumn equivelants from my measure and not scaled weights. Rifle was a Parker-Hale P58 Naval Pattern 2 band, 5 groove 48" twist. The slug was a modified Lyman 575611 and weighed 624 grains, see below:

http://www.fototime.com/C75E453AEFB1E35/standard.jpg

The Swiss BP IS hot stuff and it's the closest we have today to the old Sporting grades they had back in the old days. It's also the only modern made BP that burns moist (produces water vapour during combusiton) like some of the old sporting grades. It burns very VERY clean in high pressure applications.

In my 45cal Whitworth the 3rd patch is white. In the 58's it may take 4-5 patches to be white. While I still shoot a lot of Elephant BP because it does a good job, it takes 3 times as many patches to clean. If I have fired 20 rounds or more of it I also will have to use the breechface scraper.

With the closure of 2 local gunshops it will probably be a bit more difficult to get ahold of real BP. A couple years ago at different times I'd bought a 25lb case of Elephant mixed 2 & 3Fg and a case of Swiss 2Fg, so I still have a sizeable quantity on hand. When the time comes I'm pretty sure I can find a couple guys around to go together on another case or 2.

..............Buckshot

44man

10-09-2005, 11:02 AM

Star, I wonder if your nipples have too large a hole in them. I changed mine out long ago. I don't remember who made them but they came in a package of six for the Ruger. My hammer doesn't even get dirty.

StarMetal

10-09-2005, 04:03 PM

44man, boys, and others:

Get your favorite brew and set down here and enjoy the following post.

I found my No. 11 CCI percussion caps so did a shooting test with my Ruger Old Army. The powders involves Pyrodex Select and 777. Let me clarify that Pyrodex Select and the regular Pyrodex have the same cleansiness after firing.

The bullets used were the Lyman hollowbase conical they made specifically for the Remington Army cap n ball, the Lyman 195 gr. SWC single lube groove for the 45 acp, and a Saeco mould 200 gr. SWC bevelbased 45 acp with two lube grooves. The lube was Javenlina, yup, 50/50 Alox/Beeswax. No lube put in the cylinder mouths. The two 45 acp bullets compressed the powder pretty good so velocities were higher for them I would imagine from better ignition as Pyrodex likes compression.

The target included, by the way was shot off my retaining way and standing, is the one from the Saeco 200 SWCBB. Distance was 25 yards. I have that five shot group circles as I had shot some of the Lyman 195 grs on the same paper. The Lyman doesn't have what you would call a real SWC nose as it's tip is kind of convex and where it's shoulders meet the full groove diameter is radiused like the shoulder on Weatherbys magnums. Thus you can see that the holes in the paper look like a round nose punched them whereas the Saeco bullet cut the paper out better. Except for that one being out alittle it would have been a onc inch group.

Okay the velocities. With the hollowbased bullet it was around 800 fps. With the Lyman 195 it averaged 1050, and with the Saeco 200 it averaged 1100 fps!!!!!! Cap n Ball here folks, not shabby velocity. By the way with the Lyman and Saeco loads the recoil was violent, or should I say shock wave because the Ruger Old Army has a serrated trigger and boy did it chew up my trigger finger and stung like hell. The hollowbases were mild. The firearm is also very noisey.

I've included pictures of the bore and one close up the bore shows how clean it was after shooting to the degree that you can see the reamer marks on the top of the land. I have one of the breech face, the cylinder face, the rear of the cylinder, and the hammer and it's slot. You can see Pyrodex and 777 shoot quite clean. You can see even though it's clean, a slight build up I was talking about on the hammer side and slot sides.

44man, I don't be my nipple holes are larger, you can barely see through them.

So so much for lubing with special lubes and packing the cylinder mouths huh? At least on my gun. No multiple discharges, no leading, no real big mess.

I told you all these Rugers will shoot. I've had more then one and they shot the same.

Joe

http://www.hunt101.com/watermark.php?file=500/7385RugerOA-med.jpg

http://www.hunt101.com/watermark.php?file=500/7385RugerOA1.JPG

http://www.hunt101.com/watermark.php?file=500/7385RugerOA2.JPG

http://www.hunt101.com/watermark.php?file=500/7385RugerOA3.JPG

http://www.hunt101.com/watermark.php?file=500/7385RugerOA4.JPG

http://www.hunt101.com/watermark.php?file=500/7385RugerOA5.JPG

http://www.hunt101.com/watermark.php?file=500/7385RugerOA6.JPG

44man

10-09-2005, 06:56 PM

Star, it looks real good. I was going to shoot mine but didn't have any balls left so I had to cast today. Had trouble with the Lyman mould in that the sprue plate didn't sit flat on the top of the mould and I was getting flashing around the sprue. I spent hours lapping on glass and with oilstones trying to get a perfect fit. Had to drill the pin out of the top of the block. I finally have the plate rubbing evenly around the sprue hole but can still see light in the front and right. Going up and make some more. Be almost a week now until I can shoot. Have to do some plumbing tomorrow. Have to have the wife's 4 runner at the dealer for a recall. Too much to do and archery season opens Saturday. I still have to put up stands.

Haywire Haywood

10-17-2005, 09:38 AM

A buddy of mine tried to use 777 with a HB mini in his 50 and there was no accuracy at all... we figured out that the high pressure was blowing the skirts on it. He switched back to 2f Goex and the accuracy came back to normal.

Ian

StarMetal

10-17-2005, 09:52 AM

Haywire,

That most likely is true. In that case I would have scaled back the powder charge. He might have found accuracy and velocity at an economical setting.

Joe

PatMarlin

10-17-2005, 11:37 AM

I got around to firing some 777 yesterday, and it's the best powder I've used hands down so far with my 20 bore! (I can't get BP around here)

Shot .614 dia- 337gr round balls and it was puttin' em' well within 3" at 50, and most touching. I noticed eventhough there was not much fouling at all- after bout 5 shots accuracy fell off. I quick swab down the bore with Ballistoll, and the accuracy was right back.

I used 60gr and just set the ball on the powder and did not pack it. Cleanup was the easiest I've done yet.

Triple 7 and Ballistoll are my new favorite products... [smilie=w: :bigsmyl2:

StarMetal

10-17-2005, 11:56 AM

Well you seen, or is it didn't see, fouling with my Ruger BP Army after shooting 777 in it. I didn't have the accuracy problem you described shooting Maxi-Balls in my 50 inline. It never changed.

Joe

Ken O

10-20-2005, 09:41 PM

I picked up some 777 last week to try, $25 here a pound (ouch). In my TC Rengade it hangfired every time. I load up Pyrodex and no problem, go back to 777 and hangfire, load up Goex BP and no problem. I put in a Knight Hot Nipple, 777 still hangfires. I dont know if I got a bad jar or what. I cleaned it up and fired about 25 rounds of just 777 all hangfires but it was accurate, and almost no cleanup needed. I cant put up with the hangfires. BP is getting scarce here also, last year was the first time I used anything else, so I tried Pyrodex,and I had no problem with it except I really miss the sulpher smell!

PatMarlin

10-21-2005, 10:39 AM

Interesting on the hangfires. I didn't have any. How are you packing the charge?, cause I didn't pack mine- just tried to set it snug.

Ken O

10-21-2005, 10:49 PM

Pat, I pack it pretty good, I've shot BP for lots of years, I mark my rod and when it gets in that area, I pack and feel the rest of the way. Do you think 777 is hangfireing because I'm packing too much? Tomorrow I'll loosely pack it and try. Its just a problem I've havent had with BP or Pyrodex. With so many people not haveing a problem with 777, it must be something I'm doing wrong.

PatMarlin

10-21-2005, 11:45 PM

Yeah- try not packing, but just setting it snug on the charge cause I've read many times 777 does NOT liked to be packed.

Let us no what happens.. :Fire:

StarMetal

10-22-2005, 12:06 AM

Ignore the previous statements others have made and go here and read how to load it right from Hodgdons: http://www.hodgdon.com/tripleseven/loadnote.php

Joe

Ken O

10-22-2005, 09:57 PM

I checked out that site before, is says to seat the ball "firmly" against the charge, which what I was doing IMO. Another thing they dont mention is weather to use a lubed patch or not. Another simular powder (American Pioneer) says not to lube the patch. I have emailed Hodgdons twice asking for an answer with no response. BTW, I tried both lubed and unlubed patches with the same results. I didnt get around to trying a loosly packed charge today.

StarMetal

10-22-2005, 10:31 PM

Whatever you do don't get an airspace between that charge and the ball....major distastor then.

A hangfire is poor ignition. You can try this, trickle a wee bit of Bullseye in the nipple hole or fine blackpowder if you have, see what happens with ignition then. I'm talking about an amount of Bullseye that might not even register on a powder scale. That wee little nipple hole is all I'm talking about. If it shoots right off then, you definately have an ignition problem. If not might be possible you got a bad bottle of 777.

Joe

PatMarlin

10-22-2005, 10:48 PM

omgb

10-22-2005, 10:54 PM

777 lights hard. Unless using musket caps or shotgun primers about the only way to insure ignition is to duplex it with a small amount of BP under the main charge. 777 does not like to be crushed so don't compress it hard. Doing so crushes the grains and pressures spike rapidly. In addition, a lightly lubed patch is required. I've shot my way through 3 lbs of this stuff and know it pretty well. It delivers higher velocities with a light fouling that does not accumulate over time. However, don't you dare believe that it isn't corrosive. This stuff is deadly evil when in contact with amonia. It can rust a barrel in as little as 2 hours. The situation to avoid is like this: You finish shooting. You have a long haul back to the house so you swab the bore with Hoppes. Three hours later you take the gun apart to flush it. That's when you see the rust. The whole damn barrel will be covered inside and out with "rust hair", light powdery rust that eats into the bore with a vengence. If you must wipe the bore before heading home, use water only. Alcohol maybe but never anything with amonia. My advice is to use BP. But, if BP is hard to come by and man I know it can be, then Pyrodex is the next best thing. That too, though, needs to be kept away from amonia.

R J TAlley

PatMarlin

10-22-2005, 11:08 PM

Maybe we are finding 777 varies greatly from lot to lot?.. mine has ignited every time with CCI #11's. I also used a lubed patch and round ball.

StarMetal

10-22-2005, 11:19 PM

I have NO TROUBLE WHATSOEVER cleaning my guns with hot soapy water no matter if I'm using BP, Pyrodex, or 777. No rust ZERO...and it's humid where I live.

Joe

PatMarlin

10-22-2005, 11:26 PM

Where do you live Joe?

StarMetal

10-22-2005, 11:32 PM

In the mtns of TN.

Joe

Ken O

10-23-2005, 09:40 PM

Hogdon says..."Loading density should be 100% with light compression not to exceed .100". Testing has shown that Triple Seven will perform best when the bullet just touches the powder. "

I don't think this means packed, or "firm"... [smilie=1: :mrgreen:
Pat, here is copy and paste from the Hodgdon site it definately says "firmly":

Percussion firearms: Select the proper charge from the loads listed in this brochure. Set powder measure as indicated. While holding the firearm vertically, slowly pour the measure charge of Triple Seven into the barrel. Seat the projectile firmly against the powder. Make certain that there is no airspace between the power and the projectile

PatMarlin

10-23-2005, 09:51 PM

THis thread go's in circles more than a merry-go-round... :roll:

StarMetal

10-23-2005, 10:11 PM

That statement about make sure there is no airspace between the powder charge and the projectile goes for all powders in muzzleloader.

Joe

PatMarlin

10-10-2008, 08:58 PM

Whoa this is a blast post from the past.. :mrgreen:

Where's old starmetal Joe these days anyway?

Try a method of consitant packing pressure with 777. With these shotguns using STARR's card ward method, I give it 1 wrap with the ramrod as he suggests. The shots so far have been consistant with 777. I like the stuff as far as use, but need more accuracy tests.

corey012778

10-11-2008, 03:42 AM

wow, that was some time ago

funny thing, I have two ML's I have shot with 777. one does not matter where I place the bullet it shots great. (cci #11mag) the other light to mid pressure great groups but light 1in under bulls and mid center both about an 2in group at 50yrds. (209), I know it is not great but still tells me alot.

I like #11's and triple 7 hate it with 209's.

thought I add my thought to this oldie. [smilie=1:

PatMarlin

10-11-2008, 11:02 AM

THat seems to be my experience so far. That's why I converted the 209 to #11.

Plus the cost of the 209. I think the 209 thing is geared for the pellet/sabot inline rifles moreso than guys like me trying to use semi modern BP designs like older rifles.

Newtire

06-11-2015, 10:08 AM

I have had this experience with BP, Pyrodex and lately 777 for what it's worth. BP is nasty but cleans up with moose milk (soluble oil and water). I did have a real bad batch of Elephant brand BP but other than that have used GOEX and it was dirty but worked.

Found out the hard way about Pyrocrap. We were led to believe by Hodgdon's ads that you didn't have to worry if you left it in the barrel overnight-bad idea...Then, I found that even though I cleaned the barrel thoroughly, a couple days later, rust would start to form. Just make sure you clean it twice!

So far, 777 has been great stuff. As long as I am using lubed patches with ball or Wonderlube and lately beeswax mixed with olive oil, it shoots and shoots without any real fouling buildup. The cleanup is definitely easier and no rust the next day.

If there is any fault, it might be the sharper pressure curve that they say exists but not real sure about that. It seems to work with "45 gr." measured equivalent (not weighed) and the Lee .578" Trashcan looking Minie in my newest aquisition-a Zoli Zouave.

I have used the 777 in a .36 Navy mule-ear and a .38 Scheutzen with roundball and had real good success. Right now, it is my favorite powder for my M/L shooting. Hard to find black around here.

Col4570

06-11-2015, 10:35 AM

I get along with Black Powder in my Muzzleloaders.I tried Pyrodex some years ago and could.nt get the results I got with BP.Since then I have Stuck to BP in both Muzzleloaders and BP Breach Loaders.BP is abundant here so I lay in a fairly large supply.A good idea is to partner a Bulk Purchase this will take care of delivery Charges if you all live close to each other.We have a supplier who will deliver to any of their many depots ready for local collection.Of course we all have the cleaning problems but this is part of the traditional BP obsession.

Southron

06-11-2015, 12:06 PM

While "Round Ballers" can dump 90-95 Grains of 777 in their rifles and blaze away, the MINIE RIFLES ARE RESTRICTED TO SMALLER CHARGES. The reason being, if too much pressure is produced when a Miniie Rifle is fired, when the bullet emerges from the muzzle, the skirt of the Minie Ball will be deformed and accuracy goes out the door.

Seems to me that around 50 Grains of 777 should be a maximum charge in a Minie Rifle.

Heck, stick to REAL black powder. That is what Minie Rifles were designed for!

However, I will admit I am a "traditionalist." A friend of mine gave me an In-Line and I did find a use for it. The barrel and receiver made excellent rebar when I cast a concrete floor.

dondiego

06-11-2015, 04:23 PM

A $150 piece of rebar?

omgb

06-11-2015, 08:29 PM

BP is not evil nasty stuff and 777 is not God's gift to the ML world either. Both have their place. You will never get the accuracy with the substitutes that you can with BP but that accuracy does require work such as blow tubes, wiping between shots etc. Eh, to each is own.

Geezer in NH

06-16-2015, 06:53 PM

Nasty to clean? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

toot

06-17-2015, 10:45 AM

777 is not to be compressed. so ramming a MINNIE down in to it would compress it I believe.

Newtire

06-17-2015, 08:36 PM

777 is not to be compressed. so ramming a MINNIE down in to it would compress it I believe.You can't get a Minie that tight in the rifle I have unless you put a wad on top of it. The bore appears to get looser as you go down I get worried that it won't seat tight enough to stay put actually. Judging from the accuracy I'm getting, something must be going right. They had a sale on Alliant MZ at Sportsman's Warehouse. Unreal at $10.00 (Yeah, ten) a pound. At that cheap of a price, I am wondering. Will find out next week when I get time to go sshooting

KyBill

06-20-2015, 10:53 PM

I have used 777 and Pyrodex in my Zouave and Goex powder . Target loads I max out at pyro 70g on the minis 60g of 777 does just fine at 100 yrds . pyro and 777 clean up about the same . keep a rag with you wipe down the hammer area when shooting it gets black scortched if shooting alot Bill Kentucky

Rattus58

06-21-2015, 04:35 AM

I'm looking for something that will be not-quite-as-nasty to clean. I have a Zouave and a Musketoon, and I hate cleaning both of them.

CDDI blew the nipple clean off my musketoon with pyrodex P.... so if it's a replica, just be careful... I was using 70 grains of P... I clean my guns with super hot water and it is no problems whatsoever... that is with Pyrodex or black... and is IMPERATIVE... in my opinion that it be done on the day of shooting.... or pour 99% alcohol through the barrel till clean with wipes then swab with a protective coating or even vegetable oil and clean before shooting again with hot water is what I do the night before. I also like to start my morning with a squib load to make sure everything is working.... My two guava's worth... :)