Making 6.5x54ms brass from 30-30

[younggunz67]

Heard you can Make 6.5x54ms brass from 30-30 brass? Anybody wanna school me on how to do this

[EDG]

That is incorrect.
Here are the details. You can verify in your own loading manual.
The .30-30 is about .422 at the base ahead of the rim.
The 6.5X54 MS is about .447. This is way too much difference to be safe to use.

If you were a well equipped and highly skilled experimenter you could make the brass from some brands of .303 British if your chamber is large enough at the base . The chamber should be at least .450 at the base of the brass and .452 is much better.

[younggunz67]

look at the forth post on here.... i might just try this

http://www.handloadersbench.com/forum5/2229.html

"I found how to make .303 Savage cases from .30-30 cases by adding a .15" long ring of either .30-30 case body of a ring from .40 S&W cases.

A friend in Canada tried it for his .303 Savage and also found he could make 6.5x54MS cases from .30-30 cases by doing the same thing and then turning off the rim to body size by spinning the case in a drill and using a file, then make the extractor groove with a hacksaw blade the same way.

If they are available, .220 Swift cases will convert easily, again, have to turn off the rim and make an extractor groove.

.220 Swift cases are in current production, just .30-30 cases should be cheap or free."

[PB234]

http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/category/categoryId/702?
http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/category/categoryId/166?

[airsmithy]

What would you be shooting the 6.5x54ms from?

[younggunz67]

Up here in canada we have Cooey/Eaton's carcano's for about $100 and about $60 on the low side if your lucky, problem is Ammos always sold out and brass is expensive as hell north of the border but I can get bucket loads office fired 30-30's for darn near free. So I'm going to home roll some and just take a day or two an convert about 1000 cases so I'll be set for life. It's a great deer and coyote gun and it's so cheap why not test out the theory.

time I have, just not a boat load of cash to spend on brass up here

[nagantguy]

Necessity is the mother of all invention they say; let is know how this works. Be careful and do your home work and research.

[EDG]

It will not be so cheap if you work over 1000 cases and find that your brass is DOA after one or two shots.
If you are going to try such a trick start out with about 20 cases. Test fire a few until failure. Wear safety glasses too.
The Carcano is not so great at anything if you cannot get brass or bullets. The Carcano also needs .266 to .268 bullets depending on your bore. Forget cutting the extractor groove with a hacksaw. You will not like doing it on one case much less 1000. You need a lathe.

But I have to ask since you are a Canuck. Why don't you just use .303 brass?
It will be no more work and you will not be scabbing on a separate piece that can come off or cause a stress riser that causes case head separations.




Up here in canada we have Cooey/Eaton's carcano's for about $100 and about $60 on the low side if your lucky, problem is Ammos always sold out and brass is expensive as hell north of the border but I can get bucket loads office fired 30-30's for darn near free. So I'm going to home roll some and just take a day or two an convert about 1000 cases so I'll be set for life. It's a great deer and coyote gun and it's so cheap why not test out the theory.

time I have, just not a boat load of cash to spend on brass up here

[john hayslip]

I have a Greek sporterized rifle I shoot. I found long ago that it is simple to make from 220 Swift brass. The rifle isn't bothered by the semi-rim. All you have to do is size it back and trim.

A couple of years ago Graf and Sons had 6x54 in stock and I bought a bunch. May have some to spare if you want.

[younggunz67]

303 is an option I can get that brass cheap too just not as cheap and 220 swift is floating around just not cheap. John did you use a full length sizing die or just use your standard neck sizing die? Help would be great thanks

[younggunz67]

I had a buddy roll some for me and they shot .97" at 100 yards with a scope and he uses the NOE mold that I'm now buying :) sized to .269 and tumbled with a gas check

[Ballistics in Scotland]

It used to be common practice to use .303 brass to load for the rimmed 6.5x53, which is often said to be the same round as the 6.5x54 but with a rim. But it isn't quite. The 6.5x54 has a slightly thinner neck, and may require reaming or turning.

Few people realize just how much alike the 6.5x54 and the Carcano round are. Of course it is inadvisable to use an oversize hard jacketed bullet, and most for these rifles are hard jacketed. But that apart, I think the Carcano case would work well in many 6.5x54 rifles. There would be excessive headspace if the cartridge was free, but I think the extractor would hold up against the bolt face. It would certainly be suitable for bulletless fireforming.

[EDG]

The Carcano and the 6.5X54 Mannlicher Schoenauer are very similar. The critical head space dimension for the MS is .027 longer than the Carcano.


It used to be common practice to use .303 brass to load for the rimmed 6.5x53, which is often said to be the same round as the 6.5x54 but with a rim. But it isn't quite. The 6.5x54 has a slightly thinner neck, and may require reaming or turning.

Few people realize just how much alike the 6.5x54 and the Carcano round are. Of course it is inadvisable to use an oversize hard jacketed bullet, and most for these rifles are hard jacketed. But that apart, I think the Carcano case would work well in many 6.5x54 rifles. There would be excessive headspace if the cartridge was free, but I think the extractor would hold up against the bolt face. It would certainly be suitable for bulletless fireforming.

[younggunz67]

For the sake of saving money can anybody tell me how to make 6.5x54ms from 303 Brit

[EDG]

If you don't have a lathe you can forget it. Like many case forming processes this is not a shade tree job that you do with a file, hammer and hack saw.

1. You can do some of the forming using a .303 shell holder.

2. Then you have to turn off the rim and cut a new extractor groove.

3. If necessary you will have to swage down the solid head of the .303 case enough to fit the Carcano chamber. This will require a very heavy duty press and one or more base swaging dies. The press might be one like a mechanic uses to press bearing races out of and into 4WD hubs.

4. Once the head of the case fits the Carcano chamber, anneal the case neck area only, FL size and verify that the necks are not too thick for a loaded round to chamber.

5. Then load. The cases will be small at the shoulder but they will blow out fine.

All in all if you have beau coup .30-30 brass, buy a good clean Savage 340 and forget the Carcano. I have several Carcanos and I like to shoot them but I also have Prvi Partisan brass that I bought new and from ammo that once cost $12.95 a box.

Just because you found a cheap rifle does not mean it will be cheap and easy to shoot. That is why the rifles are cheap. Few people will spend the money and time that it takes to make one shoot. You have to figure the cost of the ammo into the cost of the rifle.

If you want cheap brass cut off the breach of the barrel about .400. Bush it or rethread it to fit the receiver.
If necessary polish the back end of the chamber out enough to use 7.62X39 brass. Cut off a set of 6.5 Carcano Lee dies to match the new chamber since it is no longer a Mannlicher Schoenauer chamber. Then form 7.62X39 to fit your new chamber and you will have some thing like a 6.5 PPC. All very cheap if you have a lathe and know how to use it.
I think the 340 Savage is a better deal. Sometimes there are barriers to a new activity. With Carcanos it is the ammo.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Much confusion has been occasioned by the fact that the OP keeps mentioning 6.5x54 brass, which wouldn't fit his rifle unless it was rechambered. It is the other way around that interchangeability may, with due precautions, be possible.

I agree, the brass conversion jobs which are being proposed are troublesome and likely to be expensive in equipment. Buying a different rifle is a far better proposition. I think Carcano brass ought to be findable, or 6.5x54, which can easily be formed that trifling bit shorter in the Carcano FL sizing die.

But if I had no lathe and cutting a groove recess stood between me and the use of some very desirable antique rifle, I would make up or adapt a device like this jeweler's ring expander, replacing the rollers with a "chamber" and cutter.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RDGTOOLS-RING-ENLARGER-STRETCHER-17-COLLETS-JEWELLERY-MAKING-TOOLS-/351140392244?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item51c1992d34

[EDG]

The wacky rifles that he refers to are reworks. Some shown on the net use the thread and chamber secion of the old barrel with a new barrel threaded into the stub and held in place with a simple set screw or grub screw as used in the commonwealth of English speakers outside of the US.


Much confusion has been occasioned by the fact that the OP keeps mentioning 6.5x54 brass, which wouldn't fit his rifle unless it was rechambered. It is the other way around that interchangeability may, with due precautions, be possible.

I agree, the brass conversion jobs which are being proposed are troublesome and likely to be expensive in equipment. Buying a different rifle is a far better proposition. I think Carcano brass ought to be findable, or 6.5x54, which can easily be formed that trifling bit shorter in the Carcano FL sizing die.

But if I had no lathe and cutting a groove recess stood between me and the use of some very desirable antique rifle, I would make up or adapt a device like this jeweler's ring expander, replacing the rollers with a "chamber" and cutter.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RDGTOOLS-RING-ENLARGER-STRETCHER-17-COLLETS-JEWELLERY-MAKING-TOOLS-/351140392244?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item51c1992d34

[EDG]

With all the empty space in my head I have kicked around an idea for a tool that could be mounted on a trim die like that ring sizer.
It would be similar to a tubing cutter with a flat sided cutter or maybe 3 cutters with one that applies the pressure to the other two. The flat side rides on top of the trim die and the other side is tapered or beveled to do the cutting. Raise the case in the die, spin the attached "tubing cutter" and cut off the case.

Your version would do the same thing on the other end of a die. Install the die in a holder, vise or upside down in the press. Set the cutting tool location for height of cut above the head. Then set the depth the tool penetrates. Turn the tool round and round while slowing infeeding like using a tubing cutter until the groove is at full depth.

I thought of adding a small boring head on a Wilson case trimmer or a bigger copy cat of the same tool. Use the boring head to bore case necks out. Change the boring bar to swing outside the case head and remove rims and turn case heads. You would need to figure out how to infeed it to cut extractor grooves. There are internal groove cutting tools that do that. Perhaps they can be copied to work on the OD. I think they feed when the operator of the milling machine holds a collars that causes the tool to extend. After a while I thought just buy a lathe.



Much confusion has been occasioned by the fact that the OP keeps mentioning 6.5x54 brass, which wouldn't fit his rifle unless it was rechambered. It is the other way around that interchangeability may, with due precautions, be possible.

I agree, the brass conversion jobs which are being proposed are troublesome and likely to be expensive in equipment. Buying a different rifle is a far better proposition. I think Carcano brass ought to be findable, or 6.5x54, which can easily be formed that trifling bit shorter in the Carcano FL sizing die.

But if I had no lathe and cutting a groove recess stood between me and the use of some very desirable antique rifle, I would make up or adapt a device like this jeweler's ring expander, replacing the rollers with a "chamber" and cutter.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RDGTOOLS-RING-ENLARGER-STRETCHER-17-COLLETS-JEWELLERY-MAKING-TOOLS-/351140392244?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item51c1992d34

[Ballistics in Scotland]

With all the empty space in my head I have kicked around an idea for a tool that could be mounted on a trim die like that ring sizer.
It would be similar to a tubing cutter with a flat sided cutter or maybe 3 cutters with one that applies the pressure to the other two. The flat side rides on top of the trim die and the other side is tapered or beveled to do the cutting. Raise the case in the die, spin the attached "tubing cutter" and cut off the case.

Your version would do the same thing on the other end of a die. Install the die in a holder, vise or upside down in the press. Set the cutting tool location for height of cut above the head. Then set the depth the tool penetrates. Turn the tool round and round while slowing infeeding like using a tubing cutter until the groove is at full depth.

I thought of adding a small boring head on a Wilson case trimmer or a bigger copy cat of the same tool. Use the boring head to bore case necks out. Change the boring bar to swing outside the case head and remove rims and turn case heads. You would need to figure out how to infeed it to cut extractor grooves. There are internal groove cutting tools that do that. Perhaps they can be copied to work on the OD. I think they feed when the operator of the milling machine holds a collars that causes the tool to extend. After a while I thought just buy a lathe.

That sounds like it would work, although I think it would be best with two rollers and one cutter, and surely it would be best reserved for some situation that produces extreme need, which I think this does not.

So the rifles are rechambered for 6.5x54 rounds? I still think the 6.5x54 brass is a better way to go. I've got mine.

[younggunz67]

I have a lathe (apprentice machinist) and I know how to use it...one of those things where you get a new tool and a new toy and you want to see what you can do.

ill stick to 220 swift formed then