8 x 57 mm from 30-06 using a Lee die

[Silverseas]

Yesterday I set up to reform once fired 30-06 into 8 x 57 mm for my Mauser.
I had done about 30 rounds previously with an RCBS die set, but have not had an opportunity yet to fire them from a bench rest. It has been too cold here so far this season but tomorrow with a forecast high of 44F I plan to get to the range and test my first ladder of reloads.


Anyway, I have reason to question whether this RCBS die set that I bought used would produce accurate reloads. While adjusting the sizing die to do that first set of 30 I noticed the expander rod was rotating slightly off center as it was turned down. I called RCBS and they sent me a new rod and decapping pins for no charge so I installed them....no improvement.


I then ordered a new Lee die set which I set up yesterday. The first shell into the die proved to be a problem. It was clean and lubricated but felt stiff toward the top and on withdrawing the case the top few mms that would be removed for the 56.9 mm length were badly scratched. Apparently the Lee die is too short to function as a reforming die.
I finished the sack of 30-06 by returning to my RCBS die, without the neck die installed to do the initial resize. Following this step I cut the excess off the case with a tubing cutter, then switched to the Lee for decapping and final sizing. All that went well.
So this adds another step to the process, but I have a comfortable place to work and plenty of time todo this task. It would be nice to find once fired 8mm at a good price, but till then the reforming is working for me. I will report on the grouping size after tomorrows shoot. Comments?

[JWFilips]

It has been my experience that the lee FL 8 mm dies are too short to resize a 30-06 unless you trim all the brass first.
The RCBS dies have a longer neck space in the top of the die so they work fine . The Lee FL dies (at least the ones I have ) the neck space above is too short and actually forces the brass into the threaded area

[Silverseas]

OK, so it is not just my inexperience. Thanks.

[EDG]

You have run into (very bad pun) what I call the closed top die problem. It is one of the chief reasons I don't like some die sets. Lee is such a penny pincher that he made most of the die bodies as short as possible. I am sure this saves him at least 2 or 3 thousand bucks a year and gives all of us stubby little dies that cause problems when forming brass from longer cases. I think it is easy to see he got his start with whack a mole tools and he has never ventured into the form and trim die business. So he is ignorant of the problem with the closed top sizer dies. Then he has that stupid 1/8 - 27 NPT (national tapered pipe) thread. This thread is tapped into a letter Q (.332) drilled hole. So any neck larger than .332 will collide with it.

To continue my beefing - I like to clean the crud out of my dies before every use and if heavily used I may clean them and preserve them before I put them away. The Lee sizers require you find a couple of heavy duty wrenches just to remove that stupid sliding decapper so you can clean out the die.
However Lee is not the only villain. RCBS in a similar cost cutting measure has just drilled and tapped the top of many dies with a 1/4-28 thread for the bare decapping rod. No bushing is used at all. However RCBS die are a little longer so you don't have so many problems with longer brass.
For straight walled cases, in the RCBS closed top dies like .375 Win, .38-55 or .45-70
I just knock the primers out with a hand punch. I leave the decapping rod out of the dies so it is easier to keep them clean. One of these days I am going to drill out the dies to clear the necks like my 50-70 dies.

[Silverseas]

EDG,
I am very thankful to you and all the other experienced reloaders and casters here on the Castboolits forum. This issue of die design styles is something I never thought of as I got involved in reloading this winter, but you have broadened my understanding and I greatly appreciate that. With help from this forum I hope to continue reloading safely while enriching my knowledge of the hobby.


I took an evening class last week on metallic reloading at Superior Shooters Supply where I buy my supplies which went over all the basics, especially safety. Some weeks ago I asked them for advise on a load for my 8mm using a cast bullet. They researched and discussed the issue for an hour with me before recommending a conservative load. That caution pleased me.

My shop is getting set up and arranged for reloading.
It sounds like I need to make more room on the shelves for a larger collection of dies, molds, tools, lubes,powders, primers, etc. There goes my allowance.


So it is out to the range today, high of 45F forecast, to see how me and my 8mm perform. More later.
Steve

[Silverseas]

Great day at the range today, high of 52F. The Mauser gave me a 6" spread at 100 yards with the Williams sights. I either need more of a recoil pad or limit the loads. No misfires, no cracked cases.

[EDG]

You seem to have the recipe for good cases now.

[crashguy]

I reform 30-06 using the Lee 8mm dies with good results.... a few things make it easier for me. I rough trim and anneal the brass before re-forming. BTW While reforming, a burr is left on the neck / shoulder area ..it's caused by a hole in side of the die ...I just deal with it...and smooth it off.

[JWFilips]

Yea I forgot about that burr that the Lee dies raise on the neck & shoulder when re-forming the 8mm I have tried polishing out the inside of the dies but it still does it. While it is only cosmetic ( but looks really bad) ....that just bugs the heck out of me!

[Remiel]

how are the lyman dies for reforming?

[Hamish]

This current batch I'm doing I went with .270 brass and Schissel die. It's pretty nice not having to rough trim to accommodate the Lee die,,,,,,,just put it in the shell holder an mash away. Have a speed trim jig for the Harbor Freight saw coming from VonZep,,,,,,I'm figuring to be in tall cotton for the Mauser shortly!

[crashguy]

If you disassemble the Lee die you can re-size 30-06 brass without trimming ...but because the expander/ de-priming pin is out it may not work with .270 brass.

[JWFilips]

If you disassemble the Lee die you can re-size 30-06 brass without trimming ...but because the expander/ de-priming pin is out it may not work with .270 brass.

With a Lee die you still need to "pre-trim"! The neck is too short it will push the brass up into the threaded area & it gets nasty.
If really you need to use a Lee die, buy a small size tubing cutter from your automotive store. Precut the brass using the shortest cut you can get out of the device ( depends on the side you place up against the 270 or 30-06 neck. If you pre cut it so.... it will reform well in the Lee dies ( outside of that dang neck burr!) then trim to 8x57 spec!

[EDG]

The older chrome plated Lyman dies had a large bushing in the top of the FL die.
When that bushing was removed there was plenty of clearance for the neck of the brass.
However you still had to go back an expand the necks to fit your bullets because you were using a FL die.

The Lyman dies are somewhat like the Lee dies because the sizer was too short to form long cases into short ones with the decapper in place.

On a slightly different note - I bought a number of Lyman die sets about 45 years ago to get the precision alignment seating die. I found that the sizers were all dimensioned toward the sizing the case to the minimum chamber dimensions. The dies were often found to be .004 smaller at the shoulder than the competitors dies.
I prefer not to squeeze the brass down so much.




how are the lyman dies for reforming?

[JWFilips]

The older chrome plated Lyman dies had a large bushing in the top of the FL die.
When that bushing was removed there was plenty of clearance for the neck of the brass.
However you still had to go back an expand the necks to fit your bullets because you were using a FL die.

The Lyman dies are somewhat like the Lee dies because the sizer was too short to form long cases into short ones with the decapper in place.

On a slightly different note - I bought a number of Lyman die sets about 45 years ago to get the precision alignment seating die. I found that the sizers were all dimensioned toward the sizing the case to the minimum chamber dimensions. The dies were often found to be .004 smaller at the shoulder than the competitors dies.
I prefer not to squeeze the brass down so much.
It is very easy to hone them out for CB use. I have converted all my dies for CB use but honing them out

[phaessler]

After all the playing I resorted to the purchase of a Redding 8x57 Form/Trim die (83159). I don't know why I ever struggled with a closed top die before. Just my experience.

Pete

[GrizzLeeBear]

After all the playing I resorted to the purchase of a Redding 8x57 Form/Trim die (83159). I don't know why I ever struggled with a closed top die before. Just my experience.

Pete

+1

The Redding form/trim die works great. It is "chamber size" rather than full length brass sized (like the RCBS trim die). Basically it sized the brass as if its been once fired in a 8mm chamber. So you will have to do the final sizing in a regular FL size die. It is an "extra" step but in my experience results in fewer wrinkles in the necks, fewer cases lost in the reforming process and less split necks during the first firing.
I cut 30-06 or 270 brass to length with the little harbor freight chop saw then lube them with Redding Imperial sizing wax BELOW the shoulder and run them through the Redding form die. It doesn't take much lube, I just swipe my finger across the tub of lube and roll the brass between my thumb and finger before putting it in the shell holder. Putting lube above the shoulder of the 06 or 270 brass will result in much more wrinkles in the formed shoulder of the 8mm brass. If it suddenly gets very difficult to push the brass all the way in STOP. Pull the brass back out and apply a little more lube. DO NOT try to force the brass the rest of the way in, or you will suffer a case stuck in the die. It should only take slightly more effort than regular FL sizing of a 30-06 case. If you don't have one of the Harbor Freight chop saws, you can use a fine tooth hack saw and cut off the brass that is sticking out the top of the die at this point. Then chamfer and deburr the case mouth, if needed, and run them through the FL size die, making sure the die makes FIRM contact with the shell holder. Then trim the brass to trim-to-length. done.
One other thing. If your Mauser has a tight chamber you MAY need to get an extra shell holder and file off .003-.004. Some brass, especially once fired military 06 brass, has enough "spring back" that it will be difficult to chamber. Taking a little off the shell holder will let the die size the brass just a little bit extra to account for this spring back. Mark this shell holder and set it aside, or keep it with the trim die, so it doesn't get mixed up with your regular shell holder that you use for normal resizing.

[fast ronnie]

I have formed many 8 x 57's. RCBS makes a trim die that does a great job. Don't get ANY lube on the neck or shoulder. I cut mine on a band saw after forming to get rid of some of the excess brass, then trim in a Forster powered case trimmer. One thing I did learn early on was to anneal the shoulder and neck area FIRST. If not, many cases will be ruined. Until I started annealing first, I had close to 30% scrap rate. After annealing, I lost one or two from lube on the shoulder. .270 seems to be a little on the thin side for making 8mm. It can be done for cast, but might be a little weak for full power loads. That is just my opinion, though. After using the RCBS trim die, I always resize with a standard 8 x 57 die to finish sizing for loading. For what it's worth, I save the .270 brass for making 7 x 57 Mauser with the appropriate trim die, same procedure.

[Silverseas]

Lots of good info here, thanks...I feels like I am back in school again. Thats good, I am a fan of lifetime learning.
Yesterday I cleaned up the brass I shot on Monday so will be heading out to the garage to reload them. My plan today is to check the case length to see how they have lengthened after being fired, then do neck sizing only with a Lee collet neck sizing die.
Monday I shot a series of increasing loads using sr 4759 from 21.5 gr to 24.5. I had a few primers protrude slightly at the 21.5 gr load, but this did not occur again till one was a bit high at 24.5. Does this indicate a problem? One shooter there suggested I try a different powder.
The 23.0 were much more pleasant to shoot that the Hornadys.
I also have a batch of Ben's Red lube in process out in the garage so I will set up to finish that mixing today. A clear sky today, light breeze with a forecast high of 45F makes me wish I was going out to the range. That will have to wait till next week, maple tree taping is starting now.

[Eddie2002]

I've started using a manual decapper before doing any resizing, it reduces the stress on the press and dies even though it is another step. I've had problems with the decapping pin on my RCBS dies being out of line and have busted off more than one pin and rod while working the brass. Been resizing 30-06 and 270 down to 7.7x58 for a while now and find that annealing the brass before working it makes a big difference. I decap, anneal, rough trim to size, resize then final trim to size. I know that sounds like a lot of work but I'm getting good results with it.

[Remiel]

Did a test run with the lyman dies, looks like the older chrome ones, did about 5 cases and only lost one, so far so good

[EDG]

The part I was concerned about being undersize was the actual die body.
At the time I had an old Bear (Pacific) C press that did not have much mechanical advantage.
My first loading bench was an old empty wood TV cabinet. Remember those? I bolted the press to the top and filled the interior with bricks. The undersize Lyman dies required so much force I would turn over my brick loaded table.

I found most other dies were more spacious than the Lymans.


It is very easy to hone them out for CB use. I have converted all my dies for CB use but honing them out

[Moonie]

I resized a few dozen 30-06 and 270 cases to 8x57 in Lee dies, never had a problem that I can recall, but it has been a few years.

This was before I had a 30-06 or the newest Encore, in 270...

[UBER7MM]

I've used both Redding and RCBS brand 8x57 dies for reforming 30'06 cases for years. I take the rod out of the FL die for the first pass. Then trim the excess off of the '06, and finish with a second pass through the FL die with the rod in place. The case is a bit think at this point, so I'll neck turn them as a final step. There usually is a final trimming check. I like to leave mine at maximum because of brass shrinkage with reduced loads.

I've also tried forming the brass by first trimming it to a little over length, then sizing without the rod in the FL die. Still need a second pass through the FL die with the rod. Then neck and length trimming. Both processes seems to work.

The Lee & Hornady FL die I own are not as reform friendly.

I hope this helps,

[xvigauge]

First post. Love this site. Anyway, I have been forming .30-06 brass to 8x57 brass for years (as well as 6.5x55, 7x57, .257 Robets, .25-06, 7.65x53 Argentine brass form .30-06 brass). As some of the other posters have said, the RCBS or Redding form and trim die is the way to go. These little dies take all the headaches out of case forming. I always anneal the brass first, then saw off the brass sticking out of the top of the die, trim to length and run it through the full length sizing die. I have never had to thin the necks; just load and shoot. No excessive pressure signs. Never have a brass shortage problem.
xvigauge

[JWFilips]

xvigauge: I concur; Never have to neck turn 06 going to 8mm! Now if it was going smaller then .30 ...yes!

[Coffeecup]

Being a low-tech kinda guy, I'm still using an old file-trim die. Run the '06 (or 270, or whelan, or whatever) brass up into the die, saw it off, file it off. Case mouth gets deburred, then goes into the usual 8x57 die. After doing thousands this way, I can't see changing.

[jonp]

It has been my experience that the lee FL 8 mm dies are too short to resize a 30-06 unless you trim all the brass first.
The RCBS dies have a longer neck space in the top of the die so they work fine . The Lee FL dies (at least the ones I have ) the neck space above is too short and actually forces the brass into the threaded area

Well this answers a question I have. I am reforming 30-06 into 35 Whelen and was not having much luck in a one pass deal so I bought a Lee 8x57 set, annealed the cases and ran through the 8mm first then the 35 Whelen, also Lee. The problem is that the mouth is dinged a little which I can trim and fix but more importantly the shoulder is way too low compared to factory 35 Whelen.

[Tackleberry41]

I use the lee die to form, I cut them off first, and take out the expander, do it in 2 steps. First time the outside, then again to finish. I have a neck turner and midway had clearance on the 8mm reamer.

[Twmaster]

I realize this is an old thread but one point I'd like to make.

I've made a lot of Argie and 8MM Mauser brass from 30-06/270 etc with Lee dies.

One way to avoid the divot caused by the weep hole in the die body is to rotate the case a little between each increment of forming the brass.

Form a little, rotate, form some more, rotate etc. Also, as pointed out avoid lubing around the shoulder.

[EDG]

You can also prevent the divot by polishing the die interior to get rid of the burr at the vent hole.

RCBS dies bottle neck dies all have the vent hole but they do not cause the divots.

Herter's 8X57s were the worst I ever saw about producing divots at the vent hole.

[paul edward]

I de-cap all of my brass before cleaning in hot water with TSP followed by citric acid bath. If cases are still nasty they get tumbled. This way, only clean brass goes into my dies.