How far will a wadcutter stay somewhat accurate?

[ohland]

Looking for a _100 yard maximum_ range plinking load for a 357 rifle. I already have 158, 170, and 204 grain .357 bullets.

133166

From my varied wanderings thru the net, a wadcutter with a slight nose should be relatively better than a flat trash can.

I understand this will start to tumble after a certain point. Looking to drive this @1400 or so.

[1Shirt]

I have this mold, and I have tried it in my 94 357. Was fairly stable to 50 yds, but only fairly, as there were a couple at that range that started to tip a bit, rather than cut a clean WC hole. Good luck.
1Shirt!

[Love Life]

Hit up the boolit exchange, see if you can scare up a variety of wad cutters to try, and hit the range.

[Larry Gibson]

Back in my PPC days 38 SPL WCs in the S&Ws with 18"+ twist barrels of 6" length would stay accurate to 75+ yards but bullet instability was definite at 100 yards. The 4" duty and snub guns would many times show instability at 50 yards. The Colt revolvers had 16" twist barrels and would be accurate to 100+ yards. Those who could not afford a Python had 6" Python (if they were lucky enough to find one and could afford it) and 6" Trooper barrels put on K Frame S&Ws to shoot the duty revolver category in the PPC which has a 50 yard stage. Those were called "Smythons" back in the day and they usually cleaned up at the 50 yard line.

Larry Gibson

[ohland]

I did some surfing, one site suggested that the slight nose was to break up the air flow over the shoulder. Other snippets suggest under the speed of sound - load to around 1,000 fps.

Er... how do wadcutters do for accuracy in a 357 Max case length of 1.600? Definitely a job for Unique?

[MtGun44]

Twist is critical. Faster twist will stabilize it to longer range.

OH, Larry already got that. :-)

[mulespurs]

I recollect back in 1970 something I cast about 1000 swcutters about like the one in the picture.
Cast out of linotype and loaded in 357 cases with a 38 spl powdercharge, I don't recall what that was.
My gun was a Ruger Blackhawk.
Target was a rooster pheasant at 138 steps kinda yards.
I dinged him enough to run him down.
They must have been ok at that range, good enough to hit a rooster anyhow.

[Le Loup Solitaire]

I never shot WC"s out of a rifle, but used them a lot in Bullseye Comp with pistols. They can be very accurate out to 50 yards, if they are correctly cast and well aimed/shot...but there are a couple of facts that have to be kept in mind. Their aerodynamic shape which successfully cuts neat holes is the worst one possible for a projectile. Secondly if there is any significant wind blowing at the range the WC will skid on it and game over. The stronger and gustier the wind then the wilder the show becomes. LLS

[ohland]

if they are correctly cast and well aimed/shot... Their aerodynamic shape which successfully cuts neat holes is the worst one possible for a projectile. Secondly if there is any significant wind blowing at the range the WC will skid on it and game over. The stronger and gustier the wind then the wilder the show becomes. LLS

There's always a catch. We are always trying to bring the best possible results out of a "primitive" arrangement. Akin to re-creating the Mona Lisa with Micro$oft Paint (Yes, I have seen it on TV!)

Truth be known, the 75 yard hangers are the farthest out to be in regular danger, the 100 yard hanger gets smacked @ 1 in 3.

The shape appears rather simple to cast, with no significant ogive. I've just never done Bevel Base before...

[alamogunr]

There has been increased noise both here and other forums concerning use of WC's for self defense loads. There is also the thread about 75000 Wadcutters:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?156622-75-000-Wadcutters-in-a-Model-27

I came to shooting handguns late in life so I'll never make it to 75000 in my Model 28 but I've started the process. I plan to use them in a carry gun(.357 w/3"bbl) if they shoot OK. I know this thread is about longer range but I would have trouble seeing a bullseye at over 50 yards.

The WC pictured in post #1 is very similar to H&G #50, which is what I have.

[Ford SD]

Looking for a _100 yard maximum_ range plinking load for a 357 rifle. I already have 158, 170, and 204 grain .357 bullets.

133166

From my varied wanderings thru the net, a wadcutter with a slight nose should be relatively better than a flat trash can.

I understand this will start to tumble after a certain point. Looking to drive this @1400 or so.

It was not brought up --
My wife has a puma 92 lever in 38/357 it will only feed one from the chamber and 1 from the mag tube
if you load 2 in the tube it will double feed and jam

nose shape is too short to get reliable feeding in a leaver

[ohland]

These will be shot from a Contender or a low-wall. Was looking, and there are some small WCs out there, like 110 grain or so in a 38.

[fecmech]

In a Rossi 92 rifle 30" twist at 1015 fps (3.1/BE) my H&G #50 WC will shoot 1.5-2" 10 shot groups @ 50 yds. It's still flying fairly stable @75 yds but accuracy is going south and at 100 yds they cannot stay on a 2' X 4' backer. I get essentially the same thing out of my 6", 19" twist K-38 with the same load albeit about 770 fps.

[Char-Gar]

The 38/357 full wadcutter is a very useful bullet on paper and off paper, but it has it's limitations. I shoot these over 3.5/BE in 38 Special cases for my 38 Special handguns and 10/2400 in 357 Magnum cases for revolvers chambered for the 357 Mag. round. These loads prove to be very accurate as far as I can shoot a pistol well, which is about 75 yards these days.

How they would perform out of a rifle at 100 yards, I don't know, but I would not be sanguine about there producing acceptable accuracy out of a rifle. But somebody needs to try it, so we will know.

[M-Tecs]

Back in my PPC days 38 SPL WCs in the S&Ws with 18"+ twist barrels of 6" length would stay accurate to 75+ yards but bullet instability was definite at 100 yards. The 4" duty and snub guns would many times show instability at 50 yards. The Colt revolvers had 16" twist barrels and would be accurate to 100+ yards. Those who could not afford a Python had 6" Python (if they were lucky enough to find one and could afford it) and 6" Trooper barrels put on K Frame S&Ws to shoot the duty revolver category in the PPC which has a 50 yard stage. Those were called "Smythons" back in the day and they usually cleaned up at the 50 yard line.

Larry Gibson

Agree with Larry 100% except around here we called them Smolts.

[geargnasher]

I must have missed the reasoning for not simply using one of the other moulds you have? I do a lot of plinking at 100 with a .35 Remington carbine....and the plain-based Lee 150 round nose. Accurate enough to be fun with factory irons on soda cans and small rocks and they feed from the magazine like butter.

Gear

[bobthenailer]

As a general rule with WC boolets accuracy falls off past 50 yards !
FME i had a load for a single shot pistol in 44mag using the Saeco 944- 200gr WC that would put 5 shots in the same hole at 25 yards, shot at 50 yards the group would open up to over 3 inches using a 2x7 power scope, both shot at the same range session.

[Forrest r]

These will be shot from a Contender or a low-wall. Was looking, and there are some small WCs out there, like 110 grain or so in a 38.

Was actually planning on doing something similar this spring. Wanted to see if there's any difference between a 110g wc & a 110g wc with a boattail.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/110gwcampharvey_zpsxewqmkwp.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/110gwcampharvey_zpsxewqmkwp.jpg.html)

The green bullets are h&g #41 110g button nosed wc's & the red bullets are h&g #225 110g harvey protxbore bullets. The harvey bullets can be cast without the zinc ring, the lead ring/crimp groove/button nose is formed in it's place. The harvey bullets can be loaded as swc's or turned around and loaded as wc's with a boat tail. Planned on testing them with 1 in 10 twist, 1 in 14 twist, 1 in 16 twist, 1 in 18 twist & 1 in 183/4 twist bbl's.

Along with those bullets being tested I also cast h&g #50's, wanted to test the plain based bullets vs the bevel based version of the same bullet.

A 12" contender bbl chambered in 38spl is the main reason for these tests. I'd like to find a lite/accurate plinking bullet for it & the 110g bullets look like a good place to start. One of the bullets, wc/wc with a boattail/swc should work. Planned on trying subsonic (around 800fps & 1050fps) and supersonic (around 1300fps) loads with those 110g bullets.

If any of them do well in the 38spl bbl then they'll be tested in a 9mm bbl, that 110g swc should prove interesting.

Please keep us in the loop with your testing.

[44man]

Darn, you must be old as me to have Harvey boolits Forrest! :bigsmyl2:
I have no experience with a full wad cutter as to stability at range, no need for the boolits. Might be more spin and twist related.
I shoot up to 82% meplats to 500 meters with no loss in accuracy but the noses are longer.
What air resistance and buffeting the full flat nose has escapes me. Might be a balance of the short boolit too.
Most wad cutters are very soft and shot very slow, what would a very hard one shot fast do?

[ohland]

I must have missed the reasoning for not simply using one of the other moulds you have? Gear

Why must I use one of them? I know they work. Let us head out for the undiscovered country. Just hope I don't get et by a bar.

[geargnasher]

Heheh, ok, I understand completely. Carry on...

Gear

[Harter66]

I had a bit of an issue with a fat nosed 45 . Apples and oranges. It's the Lee 452 252 with a nominal 45 Colts load it ran 1240 fps from a 92' Rosschester 16" carb while the designated Blackhawk hog load ran 1425 . I mention this because at 50 yd the lighter load shot good groups and perfect circles while the faster loads spread out into feet and presented ovals some with flats. The nose on that is 360+. I think it is an aerodynamic issue that is causing the tip/tumbling, it doesn't do it with the RNFP with its 320 nose. (452-255 RNFP )

More related I have shot the 358-158 RNFP Lee which has a 275 nose (Its a huge flat with almost no RN ) accurately to 300 yd in a Marlin 1895 CB 18" as a nominal 357 load shared with a Sec 6 at just short of 1500 from the carbine. 8n neither case are they true wad cutters compared to RNFP both have substantial flats and fly well.

[bhn22]

Back in my PPC days 38 SPL WCs in the S&Ws with 18"+ twist barrels of 6" length would stay accurate to 75+ yards but bullet instability was definite at 100 yards. The 4" duty and snub guns would many times show instability at 50 yards. The Colt revolvers had 16" twist barrels and would be accurate to 100+ yards. Those who could not afford a Python had 6" Python (if they were lucky enough to find one and could afford it) and 6" Trooper barrels put on K Frame S&Ws to shoot the duty revolver category in the PPC which has a 50 yard stage. Those were called "Smythons" back in the day and they usually cleaned up at the 50 yard line.

Larry Gibson

If the S&W had a Trooper barrel installed it was called a "Smolt". If a S&W had a Python barrel installed it was called a "Smython".

I was there...

[Blackwater]

I've never gotten my round tuit to try it, but I've wondered about the stability of full WC's. at range too. Bullet stability comes from two sources. They are twist rate, and velocity. We can't change the twist rate of a given gun unless we rebarrel, which isn't usually an option, so the only way to try to increase stability at range is to up the velocity. Most WC's are cast pretty soft, and shot at minimal velocities, and those aren't likely to perform at range. However, if they're cast a bit harder, so as to stand some extra velocity better, and are loaded to higher velocity, they MAY (?) wind up doing sufficiently well to do good work. I've also wanted to shoot some hard cast WC's into some wet newsprint to see if penetration increased, and if the harder metal might cut cleaner/deeper holes. Planned on doing some experiments with this soon, when my surgery is more fully healed up. Right now, it's just good to be able to walk around under my own power again. BIG TIME! If you want to try some at range, you might want to cast some harder and drive them faster than "normal," and see what they'll do. Can't hurt, and it'd be real interesting. Hope you post results if you do it before I get my round tuit.

[Forrest r]

Darn, you must be old as me to have Harvey boolits Forrest! :bigsmyl2:
I have no experience with a full wad cutter as to stability at range, no need for the boolits. Might be more spin and twist related.
I shoot up to 82% meplats to 500 meters with no loss in accuracy but the noses are longer.
What air resistance and buffeting the full flat nose has escapes me. Might be a balance of the short boolit too.
Most wad cutters are very soft and shot very slow, what would a very hard one shot fast do?


Not quite as old, but I'm trying to get there.[smilie=2:

I've always like the harvey molds and wanted to give those bullets a workout this year with a pc lube to see if it does any better than tumble lubing them. 180g 44cal bullets (still need pc'd) on the left & 110g 35cal bullets on the right. Planned on testing both bullets as a swc and turned around as a wc with a bt. The button nose of the 44cal bullets is allot pointier than the 35cal's, should prove interesting.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/harveyprotxborebullets_zpspjltk2av.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/harveyprotxborebullets_zpspjltk2av.jpg.html)

[44man]

Keep us posted about how you do, very interesting subject.

[ohland]

Most WC's are cast pretty soft

How's "soft" compared to WW?

Could always cast up some gas check Wad Cutters... (just a joke! never seen any!)

[paul h]

If you're looking for a 100 yd plinking bullet I'd either use your 158 gr mold or get a lee 125 rf.

A couple summers ago I took my boys on a camping a plinking trip. We had a couple of 357 revolvers and several hundred rounds of 38 sp wadcutter loads. As kids and adults are prone to do in a vast wilderness area, we shot at targets near and far. One of the far targets I shot at was a river bar that must have been over 1000 yds distant. I was using a snubbie 357 and after figuring out the hold over I was able to get some splashes in the river. I wouldn't consider a roughly 20' target getting hit occasionally as accuracy, but they bullets weren't flying so wild that they wouldn't make it in the general vicinity of where I was aiming.

[Harter66]

How's "soft" compared to WW?

Could always cast up some gas check Wad Cutters... (just a joke! never seen any!)

The is someone doing a tool for plain base checks.

[ohland]

The is someone doing a tool for plain base checks.

Hmm, now THAT'S why bringing up unusual things on this forum is so useful. I had forgotten about them.

The bullet I was looking at was bevel base, BUT the DEWC would probably be better for plain base.

[35remington]

My luck getting 35 caliber pistol wadcutters to shoot in 35 caliber rifles, lever and bolt with 1-14 to 1-16 twists has been pretty poor. As in about 3 inch five shot groups at 50 yards, which sorta eliminates them for any small game use. I tried them anyway at 100 just to see what happened to them and groups weren't groups, or even improved cylinder. The holes I did find were round. The bullet strikes I did not find leave only tumbling as an explanation of why they would completely miss a 2.5 by 3 foot target backer at 100 yards.

Even a favorably throated (for other cast bullets) 350 Remington mag Ruger didn't care for them.

Haven't tried any Colts, but the Lee button nose conventional lube groove and flatnose tumble lube wadcutters would not hold anything like a group at 100 yards from my Smith revolvers. 1:18.75" twist. This from 700 to about 850 fps.

The rifle speeds were from 800 to just under supersonic. No dice at 100 yards. Well, no dice at fifty yards either, but at least they shot into 3 inches. At 100 yards group sizes couldn't even be estimated as they simply weren't there.

An exception that both was and wasn't occurred shooting the 313492 (a 32 Long type III wadcutter) in a 1-12 twist 308. This did far better at fifty yards that my previous 35 caliber efforts, averaging around 0.9 inch at fifty with various fast powders approximating Bullseye. This bullet looks a lot like a 358432, with the difference being that the nose of the 358432 is too small to be bore riding, while the 313492 has a diameter ahead of the crimp groove that makes it bore riding or very near it in the various 32 revolvers.

Perhaps this accounted for the fact that it shot very well at fifty while the more conventional garbage can shaped 38 wadcutters did much worse. The .308 is favorably throated in my opinion, but no more so than the 350 Ruger is. So I'm thinking it's the bullet and something to do with its oddball combinations of bore ride/full diameter shape intended for a revolver. Well, okay, a good throat didn't hurt either.

However, two, five shot groups at 100 yards went right around a foot each. You'd expect a couple of inches at that range if the dispersion was linear....and it wasn't.

Bullet holes were round but the dispersion resulting in one foot "groups" must have been a precursor to tumbling. There wasn't any tipping in the slightest for the ten holes observed at 100 yards. At 200 yards shots into the dirt berm would veer noticeably off the sight line, indicating tumbling was well developed. Muzzle velocity for these efforts in the 1-12 308 was just a little north of 1000 fps.

Just to satisfy my curiosity the BC over a 50 yard distance came out to be 0.060 G1 for the 313492. Past 100 yards I'd bet it wouldn't be much more than half that.

[tazman]

A number of years ago I shot some wadcutters in a Marlin lever gun chambered for 357 magnum. They were the same load I used for my 38 special at the time. I don't have the record from that anymore as far as load data, but I do remember how they shot because I used them for squirrel hunting that fall.
At 25 yards they shot just under an inch for me. Beyond that was problematic. It depended on the day if I got what you could call a group at all. But at close range they did well.

[bedbugbilly]

Interesting post and I think it's something a lot of us wonder about. I normally shoot my WC out of my 5" M & P but not at long ranges. Usually at around 25 yards. max. and then just plinking. I bought a H & R 357 Handi Rifle last summer and haven't had much of a chance to play with it. I have plenty of 38 molds in different designs but one thing that I wanted to play with this next summer is WC out of it just to see what range the WC would start flying in all directions.

I hope you'll keep us posted on what you find out - we all can learn from it.

And . . . those PC boolits sure are pretty . . . haven't gone that route yet but I'll bet they make up a mighty fine looking cartridge!

[bobthenailer]

44 Man ! the WC i used were water dropped WW @1,400 fps .using 17.5 grs of WC820
I used this load for a few years for 25 yard bowling pin shoots with a 3 min time limit for 5 shots !
Other shooters would reset your pins that you were sometimes shooting in your class and sometimes would reset pins that were full of lead or part of the pin was blown apart but turn the good side to the front so you would not knock the pin off the table !
Its funny what some people do to win money! after i caught on, i watched them reset my pins with binoculars to catch them in the act and demand a new pin.
Another club i shot at only used good quality shot pins for resetting so i reduced my load to 1,100 fps with bullseye powder.

[44man]

Yeah, too much power just leaves pins.

[ohland]

An exception that both was and wasn't occurred shooting the 313492 (a 32 Long type III wadcutter) in a 1-12 twist 308. This did far better at fifty yards that my previous 35 caliber efforts, averaging around 0.9 inch at fifty with various fast powders approximating Bullseye. This bullet looks a lot like a 358432, with the difference being that the nose of the 358432 is too small to be bore riding, while the 313492 has a diameter ahead of the crimp groove that makes it bore riding or very near it in the various 32 revolvers.

What part of the 313492 is .005-.007 smaller? The top wide band?

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?155235-Ideal-313445&p=1736026&viewfull=1#post1736026

NOZOMBIES wrote:
Yes, it was me who made the statement that there are 2 versions of the 313445. I've owned both. One has a section forward of the "crimp" area that runs full diameter, the other runs .005-.007 smaller diameter. The same goes for the 313492.

Found the 313445, 313492, and 313493 in the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook #2.
133596 133597

http://32long.com/313445.php

93 grain 313492 Type III wadcutter

[ohland]

133604 133605 133606

So the well behaved wadcutter is the 313492. The topmost (wide) band in the accurate one is .005 - .007 below groove (.313 - .005 = .308?). SAAMI specs call for .303 bore, .312 groove.

Wonder if the magic sized 313492 was made with a worn cherry (something lyman would NEVER allow...)

The 313445 appears to have the same general design, and possibly shares the same bore rider characteristics with the same top band matching the bore diameter.

NOTE: bore, groove, at this point, what difference does it make?



An exception that both was and wasn't occurred shooting the 313492 (a 32 Long type III wadcutter) in a 1-12 twist 308. This did far better at fifty yards that my previous 35 caliber efforts, averaging around 0.9 inch at fifty with various fast powders approximating Bullseye. This bullet looks a lot like a 358432, with the difference being that the nose of the 358432 is too small to be bore riding, while the 313492 has a diameter ahead of the crimp groove that makes it bore riding or very near it in the various 32 revolvers.

Perhaps this accounted for the fact that it shot very well at fifty while the more conventional garbage can shaped 38 wadcutters did much worse. The .308 is favorably throated in my opinion, but no more so than the 350 Ruger is. So I'm thinking it's the bullet and something to do with its oddball combinations of bore ride/full diameter shape intended for a revolver. Well, okay, a good throat didn't hurt either.

However, two, five shot groups at 100 yards went right around a foot each. You'd expect a couple of inches at that range if the dispersion was linear....and it wasn't.

Bullet holes were round but the dispersion resulting in one foot "groups" must have been a precursor to tumbling. There wasn't any tipping in the slightest for the ten holes observed at 100 yards. At 200 yards shots into the dirt berm would veer noticeably off the sight line, indicating tumbling was well developed. Muzzle velocity for these efforts in the 1-12 308 was just a little north of 1000 fps.

[35remington]

I consider the definition of band to be any portion of the bullet that is full diameter and is intended to be fully engraved by the rifling rather than intended to ride upon it. By my definition the portion that is subcaliber can't be a band. Thus, the nose of the bullet that I refer to is that portion that is subcaliber and it is above the crimp groove that is present.

Squint at the drawing and you'll see what I mean. This area is intended to be about .303" in diameter for the typical 32 pistol bore size, which is the land to land dimension.

People all too often say "my bore slugs ....." when they mean their groove dimension.

From comparing my dimensions with others that have 313492's, this isn't from a worn cherry, but rather one that had some life left. You would expect such dimensions for a 32 revolver bullet. The 313492 was precisely that.

If you're trying to get the bullet to fit your rifle chamber when seated to the crimp groove , the definitions and dimensions do matter.

Mine run more to 87.5 grains (wheelweights/dental foil lead).

[ohland]

From comparing my dimensions with others that have 313492's, this isn't from a worn cherry, but rather one that had some life left. You would expect such dimensions for a 32 revolver bullet. The 313492 was precisely that.

If you're trying to get the bullet to fit your rifle chamber when seated to the crimp groove , the definitions and dimensions do matter.

OK, I can grok it being cut to that dimension. If it isn't, it could be nose sized to .303 or whatever the rifle's bore slugs. Just the top wide area.

After some contemplation, perhaps rifle accuracy depends on the front wide surface being sized to bore (land to land) diameter. In a pistol, the front surface might fit the cylinder throat (?) or whatever it is called.

Is it possible for the 313492 to be loaded so the front wide surface to enter the bore so the bullet is oriented properly upon firing? This depends on the bullet's length and the rifle's chamber.

As the tie-breaker - if the rifle case neck plus bullet diameter (not the front surface, but the base bands) is enough to reliably center the bullet to the bore, would this not assist in orienting and supporting the bullet upon firing?

[PAT303]

What are wadcutter cases?. Pat

[ohland]

What are wadcutter cases?. Pat

Well, either pistol, usually with a straight wall case in a revolver (K-32, where are you?) - or what I wanted to find out - can someone use a wadcutter in a rifle.

[35remington]

Wadcutter pistol cases, usually found for the .38, have a thinner sidewall to allow the long wadcutter bullet to fit without bulging or distortion. Often recognizable by their cannelures located below the base of the bullet, well down on the case. Wadcutter cases came with factory loaded 38 hollowbase wadcutters.

From shooting conventionally shaped (no bore riding section) 32 caliber 98 grain RCBS WC's in the same 308 rifle, two things are apparent. One, the full diameter wadcutter doesn't allow much bullet to be seated outside the case when sized .311 given how the rifle was throated....not if you wanted to close the bolt easily. Second, while on average they grouped much better than the 35 caliber wadcutters did they had much more of a propensity for a flyer per group than the 313492 did/does.

When seated to just below the crimp groove the 313492 allowed the "bore riding" section to span the throat and touch the rifling origin and slightly engrave. The only way to accomplish that with the conventional wadcutter was to size to a half thou smaller than the 308's throat....and accuracy still wasn't as good, nor did the occasional flyer go away. (Beat the 35's all hollow, though).

It's my guess that the bore riding section of the 313492 sort of takes the place of a very gentle leade angle on the rifling, essentially guiding the bullet into place gradually rather than abruptly. There may be a better "centering effect".....the result on target suggest that, anyway. My other guess is that the only way to make the flyers go away on the conventional RCBS wadcutters is to taper the leade more gradually than as it currently exists. Keep in mind, though, at this diameter the 313492's nose isn't really bore riding....it's lightly engraving on the rifling. The fact that the bullet is lopsided and out of round throws another puzzle as to what's happening. Full engraving is not occuring symmetrically all around the nose of the bullet.....partial to full symmetrical engraving is.

What is of further interest is that you would expect slight skidding given this light engraving, sort of like a revolver bullet, but there really is none. It is possible the light to moderate engraving (the out of round nose measures .301" X .306" and the engraving ranges from only sliding marks to noticeable "bite" on the bullet) is sufficient to prevent the lightweight bullet from riding over the rifling at first contact.

If I was commissioning NOE or some other maker to come up with a copy of the 313492 to shoot in a rifle, I'd specify a nose of .301", minus a thou, plus nothing. That's a little smaller than desirable for a pistol, I'd suppose, given their normal .311-.312" barrel dimensions with lands expected to be in the .303-304" vicinity.

[35remington]

One can also imagine that the 313492's had support both at rifling contact and with the front full diameter band truing them up in the throat. While the conventional wadcutters to just under throat diameter had rifling contact in the same approximate areas, something about the difference in how they engraved as they entered the barrel accounted for the accuracy/flyer differences noted.

I think.

FWIW Ben has also had very good accuracy with this WC bullet (313492) in a 30-30 Contender pistol.

The 313492's were very, very reliable in group sizes, and threw very, very few fliers. Can't say that for the RCBS 98 WC in the same rifle.

[ohland]

What is of further interest is that you would expect slight skidding given this light engraving, sort of like a revolver bullet, but there really is none.

I have always wondered how much bullet setback, or slumping, makes the bullet deform.

Sleepy-bye time...

[beagle]

I have shot quite a few 358495 bullets loaded in .38 Special cases at 100 yards out of a M1894 Marlin carbine and they did quite well with plinking accuracy. The two bullet thing held me back from shooting more.

I once unloaded a bunch of 358495 .38 Special loads on the sniper practice course at Fort Campbell out of my 4" Colt Python. It was dry and dusty and I was facing west so spotting was easy. No problem hitting a shoulder sized steel silhouette at 125 yards in a bunker setting. Moving out to 200 yards, I'd get maybe two hits on a full sized silly wet with quite a few flyers indicating instability. Then wild bid time. With my son spotting I moved on to an old tank hulk at ranges in excess of 600 yards with a very high holdover. Occasionally, I'd lob one on the tank but the remainder went all over the area and you could tell they were unstable and there was quite a while before impact due to velocity loss.

Probably the best results I've had at long range with wadcutters was when I was writing the .38/44 loads article. I duplicated the old published .38/44 loads in .38 Special cases for use in the .357 Magnum guns. One of my better loads was the 358395 HB wadcutter in the .38 Special case out of the 6 1/2" Blackhawk. These were clocking 1100-1200 FPS and were accurate at 100 yards on beverage sized cans.

With wadcutters, starting speed is the thing./beagle

[Shiloh]

Back in the 90's one of the cast shooters tried several different WC boolits out of a lever gun. Most all were good at 50 yards, some better than others. further out, accuracy was noticeably effected. I can't remember the make of the rifle. At 100 yards accuracy was non existent.

This was one man experimenting. As one of the folks here says on his by-line, Your mileage may vary.

Shiloh

[texassako]

Back in the 90's one of the cast shooters tried several different WC boolits out of a lever gun. Most all were good at 50 yards, some better than others. further out, accuracy was noticeably effected. I can't remember the make of the rifle. At 100 yards accuracy was non existent.

This was one man experimenting. As one of the folks here says on his by-line, Your mileage may vary.

Shiloh

Sounds like my experience with a 'wadcutter' in .45-70, see pic of the bullet on right. It will cut one ragged hole at 50 with several loads, and every one of those opens up to 4-5" at 100 so far.

133711

[PAT303]

Wadcutter pistol cases, usually found for the .38, have a thinner sidewall to allow the long wadcutter bullet to fit without bulging or distortion. Often recognizable by their cannelures located below the base of the bullet, well down on the case. Wadcutter cases came with factory loaded 38 hollowbase wadcutters.

From shooting conventionally shaped (no bore riding section) 32 caliber 98 grain RCBS WC's in the same 308 rifle, two things are apparent. One, the full diameter wadcutter doesn't allow much bullet to be seated outside the case when sized .311 given how the rifle was throated....not if you wanted to close the bolt easily. Second, while on average they grouped much better than the 35 caliber wadcutters did they had much more of a propensity for a flyer per group than the 313492 did/does.

When seated to just below the crimp groove the 313492 allowed the "bore riding" section to span the throat and touch the rifling origin and slightly engrave. The only way to accomplish that with the conventional wadcutter was to size to a half thou smaller than the 308's throat....and accuracy still wasn't as good, nor did the occasional flyer go away. (Beat the 35's all hollow, though).

It's my guess that the bore riding section of the 313492 sort of takes the place of a very gentle leade angle on the rifling, essentially guiding the bullet into place gradually rather than abruptly. There may be a better "centering effect".....the result on target suggest that, anyway. My other guess is that the only way to make the flyers go away on the conventional RCBS wadcutters is to taper the leade more gradually than as it currently exists. Keep in mind, though, at this diameter the 313492's nose isn't really bore riding....it's lightly engraving on the rifling. The fact that the bullet is lopsided and out of round throws another puzzle as to what's happening. Full engraving is not occuring symmetrically all around the nose of the bullet.....partial to full symmetrical engraving is.

What is of further interest is that you would expect slight skidding given this light engraving, sort of like a revolver bullet, but there really is none. It is possible the light to moderate engraving (the out of round nose measures .301" X .306" and the engraving ranges from only sliding marks to noticeable "bite" on the bullet) is sufficient to prevent the lightweight bullet from riding over the rifling at first contact.

If I was commissioning NOE or some other maker to come up with a copy of the 313492 to shoot in a rifle, I'd specify a nose of .301", minus a thou, plus nothing. That's a little smaller than desirable for a pistol, I'd suppose, given their normal .311-.312" barrel dimensions with lands expected to be in the .303-304" vicinity.
35 remington,thanks mate,never new there was wadcutter cases,looking through my stash I have quite a few. Pat

[ohland]

old tank hulk at ranges in excess of 600 yards with a very high holdover. Occasionally, I'd lob one on the tank but the remainder went all over the area and you could tell they were unstable and there was quite a while before impact due to velocity loss.

I have seen the crazy pocket pistol shoots in the UK where they are hitting targets at and over 100 yards with 2" or so barrels... Day-um...

Area fire... Beaten zone.