Neat little rifle in the pawn shop...is it a deal?

[webradbury]

So I went to the pawnshop yesterday while walking my beat (I'm a cop...), and they have this neat little savage model 1899 in a caliber I had not heard of before. It is chambered in Savage 22 hi power. I'm familiar with the 1899 as my father has a very nice example chambered in 300 Savage but I must admit I did not know they ever came in this caliber. I've been in the shop before and I know he is had this rifle for a while but I never examined it and honestly it never really caught my attention until yesterday for some odd reason.

The wood is dark and the metal is just as dark with a dark patina. The action is sound and it functions properly. I did not look down the bore so I can't say what condition the barrel is in. The serial number puts it in the neighborhood of 1917 to 1918.

I lightheartedly told him that no one was going to really be interested in this old rifle and they had had it too long and needed to move it. The rifle was marked $500 and I was only able to talk him off $100 and tax bringing the total to $400 out the door.

I think he could do better than that but I wanted to ask here to see what the general consensus was regarding this rifle. Will

[Dan Cash]

$400 out the door! If the bore is not shot, buy it. May be buy it even if the bore is gone. It may not be a cast bullet rifle and it is definately a handloading proposition but the .22 HighPower is a great cartridge and the package is way under rated by the "learned" gun scribblers.

I helped a friend put some ammo together for his 99 take down in .22 HP some years ago. The rifle was not a bench rest gun but easily held MOA.

[pietro]

.

While the price is right, IIRC finding good .227" (larger than modern .224" CF's) boolits/ammo might be a little hard to find (certainly not in most localities).

I think Hornady made the slugs for reloading, and Sellier & Bellot sold loaded .22 Hi-Power ammo labelled "5.6x52R".

Savage made hay early-on, with that chambering - advertizing that all sorts of BIG game was taken with the gun/cartridge.


.

[Scharfschuetze]

I used a Model 99 in 22 Savage Hi-Power on a hunting trip in Australia many years ago. It killed pretty well with well placed hits on boar.

Now, here's the deal. It uses a .227 to .228" diameter jacketed bullet so you'd probably want to use a .230" diameter cast boolit depending on the bore size. From what I understand from others, that is hard to do with some of the rifles as a larger diameter boolit may not chamber due to the diameter of the chambers neck. Individual rifles will vary I'm sure. Speer used to market a .228" bullet for the Hi-Power, but I haven't looked at their catalog in years, so who knows if it's still in production. Hornady still lists a 70 grain .227 projectile.

I'm not certain, but I bet the parent case was the 25/35 so 30/30 brass should be convertible. Purpose made brass might be an issue, but according to the posts above mine, it is apparently still available with a little searching.

By the way, I used to love walking the beat. It was a great way to work.

[webradbury]

I might let him keep it a little longer while I finish my current project and then talk to him. He might come off it some more. Thanks for the info

[Bent Ramrod]

If it is a takedown model, mechanically tight and sound with a good bore, $400 is not a bad price.

If it is a solid frame version with good mechanics and bore, it is a prize at that price. I've only seen a couple such and they were priced at $1400 or more.

Some of the Hi-Powers were not very accurate, i.e., fine for game shooting at normal ranges but not for target shooting or long range varminting, and the takedown feature was blamed for much of this. I think Ken Waters in his Pet Loads mentioned this issue. The solid frame Hi-Powers should shoot as well as any other hot .22 centerfire if the loads are right.

[webradbury]

Thats interesting. I don't think it is a takedown model. Didn't the takedown models have some mechanism on the forend... a small lever or button of some sort? This one has a plain forend with no mechanism.

[Reverend Al]

As mentioned above it is a fun cartridge! I've owned two of them (and sadly was talked out of both of them). Easy to make the cases from .30-30 brass, but to prevent case loss from wrinkling it's best to do the job progressively. Anneal the .30-30 cases first and then run them through a 7x30 Waters die, a .25-35 die and then finish with the .22 HP sizer. Using that method I've never lost a case ... (knock on wood). Finding suitable .227 / .228 jacketed bullets for one is a bit of a quest these days, but you could use a boolit of .228 to .230 depending on what size the bore slugs? The cartridge is suitable for deer sized game (if .22's are legal for deer in your area .. they are in mine) and that lightweight little gun is a pleasure to carry in the woods. I'd highly recommend the gun and cartridge. (And by the way, when I've seen them for sale up here they sell for more than that!)

[skeettx]

http://www.norma.cc/sv/Ammunitionsskolan/Laddata/56x52R-22-Savage-HP/

http://www.wholesalehunter.com/product.asp?productid=3367

http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/25157

[richhodg66]

One push through a sizer using .25-35 brass will give you good brass. The oversized bore means you need special bullets which are hard to find, the Hornadies aren't all that great, better ones exist, but I haven't tried them yet.

Mine is fun to plink with using unsized Lyman 225415s and 6 grains of Unique at 25 yards. It was as accurate as I could hold the open sights. It's an interesting caliber, I think $400 isn't too out of line if in good shape.

[OverMax]

22 HP. Great little varmint shooter. FAST and very accurate for its day. Plenty of power to knock down even the biggest of bucks within reasonable distance. A very nice rifle for those females who enjoy Big Game hunting too.
Two things to check before ones buying. Rotary magazine spring_ barrels bore. If you were to buy it. Grumpa a Seller/Sponsor here on C/B hand swage's 22 H.P. brass and sells it occasionally at a very reasonable price.

[windy]

if you don't want it, buy it at that price and turn it around fer a 50% profit er better. check out the gun sites fer prices. strangely enough, they'll shoot the heftier .224's about as accurately as the .227's and .228's that're made fer 'em--don't ask me why, but i heard it, tried it, and it worked! one of the most fun little rifles you'll ever own!
windy

[Geezer in NH]

Buy it at what he wants or you are pushing ethics. Don't use your LE for being a reason it's called extortion and is not ethical at all. In fact When I was LE you would get canned. Ye I worked for the public myself and did investigate sworn officers and did put some off the job for that ****

[Ballistics in Scotland]

More than thirty years ago I found a book being sold cheaply as a publisher's remainder in London. It was the work of a Church of England canon who had become a cavalry officer in 1913 (good move?), and had made it his life's work to compile information on every man who took place in the Charge of the Light Brigade. I was heavily laden, so I decided to buy it on my way back. You know what happened, and it could happen to that gun too. (I found the book recently, in the age of the internet, but it didn't cost me £1.50.)

As has been said, the bore is important. I'm sure a good smokeless steel was used, but the powders employed may not have been as well suited to a .22 centrefire as those of today, and the primers early in its life would have been corrosive. A cartridge of this type can be erosive, especially if .224 bullets are used. If they are thin jacketed and flat based they may expand to seal the bore, but if they don't, there is leakage of extremely hot gases.

The bullets can be obtained, and I don't think it would be very difficult for the lathe owner to make a die to swage .224 ones up to size. I don't doubt a specialized firm like Corbin could do an excellent die, but that would be expensive, and probably with a long waiting time.

With these provisos this is a fascinating piece of machinery, and a thoroughly practical rifle for many purposes. The effect of case shape on accuracy is much overrated, due partly to the work of benchresters who work at such standards that they can't afford to overlook a thing that might make a difference. It is very unlikely that you will ever miss a shot in the field, which could honestly be attributed to cartridge design.

It has been used on all sorts of large game, with frequently dramatic results. WDM Bell, surely the most experienced of all elephant hunters, had a low opinion of the Cape buffalo, which is strikingly at variance with the majority who write of them. Perhaps the explanation is that he was after camp meat, and favoured the young or the female. He once made 23 successive one-shot kills on buffalo with the Savage round. This isn't an argument for using it on large game, and he didn't try to make one, or indeed suggest that the inexperienced should shoot elephant with the 7x57 and comparable rifles he used. But it does support the view that where permitted and where shots aren't very long ones, the Savage is a viable deer rifle.

[webradbury]

Buy it at what he wants or you are pushing ethics. Don't use your LE for being a reason it's called extortion and is not ethical at all. In fact When I was LE you would get canned. Ye I worked for the public myself and did investigate sworn officers and did put some off the job for that ****

Not sure what you are insinuating but no where in our discussion did I try to push the fact that I should get a better deal because I'm in Law enforcement. I hate gratuities and I assist everyone with my best effort regardless if they live in the country club or public housing on welfare!! I've been called a pig (and a lot worse) more times than I can count, I've been spit on in my face (four times and counting), I've been injured trying to apprehend a suspect to the point I had to have surgery and I've had thug drug dealers tell me they know where I live and my wife and children would be killed and I still don't think anyone owes me a damn thing! But nothing offends me more than when someone who DOESN'T KNOW ME, questions my integrity! Thanks to all who replied with knowledgeable helpful information. Thread closed as far as I'm concerned.

[ascast]

Forget about deer hunting with it. That cartridge was obsolete in less than 20 years because is was NOT a reliable deer/bear killer. I have one, shot a lot of woodchucks with it with factory ammo. Woodchucks are about the size of a 3 liter pop bottle. The 22 Sav would commonly not go all the way through the 4 inches of rib cage-side to side. So, if you hit a deer in the front leg, you loose. Same goes for about anything else short of a well placed heart, liver, neck or spine shot. Even high in the lungs wont do it as the bullet hole closes over with fat and skin and he will still run. You really have to choose your shot.
That said, I have one and love to shoot it. The .227 stuff will work but it is undersized and will erode your barrel. Sellier & Bellot ammo is .224 dia. which will shoot, but I would not make a habit of it. I think NOE has a number of molds in the .228-.229, 70 grn.
Best case, find or make a barrel in .30-30, .303 Savage, .38-55, 25-35 maybe even 300 Savage, 250-3000, 32-40, 410 Shotgun. any one of which has 2 to 5 times the reliability of killing deer sized criters.
buy it ! it's only money...

[ascast]

re: the LEO angle of this thread. I did not see anything wrong in webradbury saying he was a cop. or that he acted inappropriately.

I will say that here in NY just a few weks ago there was a big deal as a city wide buy back program was run by cops, who bought the guns for there own use and collections. It happened in Herkimer, NY in response to a nut job a few years ago going nuts and shooting a few people, then himself. My tax dollars went to a liberal program to make a bunch of guns available for a few cops to pick over and buy for their own use.
In my opinion, they are pigs, pure and simple.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Not sure what you are insinuating but no where in our discussion did I try to push the fact that I should get a better deal because I'm in Law enforcement. I hate gratuities and I assist everyone with my best effort regardless if they live in the country club or public housing on welfare!! I've been called a pig (and a lot worse) more times than I can count, I've been spit on in my face (four times and counting), I've been injured trying to apprehend a suspect to the point I had to have surgery and I've had thug drug dealers tell me they know where I live and my wife and children would be killed and I still don't think anyone owes me a damn thing! But nothing offends me more than when someone who DOESN'T KNOW ME, questions my integrity! Thanks to all who replied with knowledgeable helpful information. Thread closed as far as I'm concerned.

That never occurred to me, and perhaps not to many of us. Of course there is a sprinking of porcine individuals in all professions, including mine, and it is right to stop them building up to a critical mass, like uranium. But it would be quite an unusual line for police corruption to take, and I can't believe a policeman is really required to pay asking price on a used gun which has been around for a while.

The Savage round fell out of use (a kinder term than obsolete) because a lot was done in .22 centrefires during its first few decades. The factory loads, in the condition they came out of the factory, gave slightly more power than is common in the .223, which plenty of people consider suitable for cautious use on deer. I don't know if they loaded very expansive varmint bullets, but some bullets in .227 are more robust than most used in .22 centrefires. The trouble was that a legend grew up that it was a death-ray, suitable for use on anything and everything, by people who didn't know much about bullet placement. That has brought unsatisfactory and sometimes dangerous results with far larger and more modern cartridges than this. I am led to believe that .227 is the right diameter, and that the .410 shotgun will not have 2 to 5 times the reliability on deer.

One great benefit of a rifle in mediocre external condition, and not so rare that anybody gets really distressed about it, is that it is OK to restore it. But I wouldn't change the barrel, for it deserves to be left in this chambering. I have never looked closely at a Savage magazine that age, and it might be less precisely machined to a specific cartridge than the Mannlicher-Schoenauer I know and love. But venturing into a different chambering is still capable of producing unforeseen problems.

[TXGunNut]

Buy it at what he wants or you are pushing ethics. Don't use your LE for being a reason it's called extortion and is not ethical at all. In fact When I was LE you would get canned. Ye I worked for the public myself and did investigate sworn officers and did put some off the job for that ****

Making an offer below the asking price is common practice for any used gun in almost every situation where I buy guns, especially pawn shops. Expecting someone to pay asking price in this situation simply because he's a LEO is silly or perhaps worse. Developing a relationship with a pawn shop is good police work IMHO, negotiating a deal on a rifle helps develop that relationship.

[skeettx]

Ok, lets get back to guns,
did you do the deal?? or leave it for one of us?? :)
Great day!
Mike

[Geezer in NH]

Making an offer below the asking price is common practice for any used gun in almost every situation where I buy guns, especially pawn shops. Expecting someone to pay asking price in this situation simply because he's a LEO is silly or perhaps worse. Developing a relationship with a pawn shop is good police work IMHO, negotiating a deal on a rifle helps develop that relationship.

Using I AM a Cop Give it to me cheaper breaches on ETHICS period.

No different than taking FREE meals and other services, ie Free hookers that make me SICK.

Keep apologizing and do better I hope.

[Geezer in NH]

Sorry for the off topic RANT but when an LEO uses his job for consideration in any way it really hurts the ones who do not.

I am retired from it but I had no problem speaking out then or now. We wonder where the us vs. them comes from. THIS IS a big PART.

[TXGunNut]

Using I AM a Cop Give it to me cheaper breaches on ETHICS period.

No different than taking FREE meals and other services, ie Free hookers that make me SICK.

Keep apologizing and do better I hope.

I saw no indication that the OP was using his position in that matter. I don't think anyone else, including the pawnshop folks, saw it that way either. I don't see where an apology is due.

[Rick Hodges]

Geezer, to suggest that a person cannot dicker on the price of an object for sale in a pawn shop simply because he is a police officer is such a twisted overreach of the term ethics that is just plain silly. I don't know how long ago you retired....but if you tried to discipline any officer for that during the past 40 yrs or so....you would get laughed out of court....and would certainly loose the accompanying counter suit.

You are seeing things in the post that are just not there.

[Bent Ramrod]

Yes, the takedown feature on a Savage 99 involves a little button or slider on the forend. You should also see the parting line in the receiver where the barrel part abuts on it.

The two solid frame examples I saw had the deep pistol grip stocks and the wide forends that came with the "modernization" of the old design. If they had been offered for $400, I wouldn't have held this against them, even though I like the looks of the skinny barrel, crescent buttplate, straight-grip, schnabel forend version the best. I would have bought both of them for that price. But I am kind of dotty about obsolete calibers.

As our "scratcher" lottery ads out here say when the jackpot gets to a million, "What?? You're still sitting there???":mrgreen: Do check the bore condition, though. Can't hardly find spares for them anymore.

The early rotary magazine is easily re-sprung if the spring is tired. Numrich had the springs when I redid my 99. Sometimes all that is needed is the spring twisted in a quarter turn or so. The later magazines were more complicated, but if the rotor itself is in good condition, they should still be fixable.

[7br]

Ya know, I was at a little gun store in Bolivar MO and they had a plastic sack of .22 hi power brass. I was looking for .30-30 brass and it threw me for a loop.

[Fishman]

Geezer it is actually standard practice for many retailers to give a discount to law enforcement and first responders. That said, I think the issue is completely irrelevant in this thread and if anyone owes anyone an apology it is the one due to the OP by you. I think you are assuming way to much based on some previous experiences and I just don't see anything like that here.

[Scharfschuetze]

Geezer,

I think that you misread or misinterpreted something as there was absolutely no indication of what you suggest in your post. As a former LEO I'm sensitive to this issue and I've got to say that you are just plain "off base" with your post.

Fishman is correct, you owe an apology to the OP.

The topic is after all, the 22 Savage Hi-Power.

[Fishman]

Wayne S is selling a Mihec .227 mould in swapping and selling right now! :) Better get busy.

[yooper]

Here's my two Hi-Powers. Note the slide on the bottom of the forearm and the seam near the front of the receiver. These are indicators of a takedown model, which nearly all Hi-Powers are. If the one you're looking at is a solid frame, see if the dealer has the scabbard to fit on a unicorn, cuz they're nearly that scarce. ;-)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v305/yooper35/22hps1_zps59576d1a.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/yooper35/media/22hps1_zps59576d1a.jpg.html)

yooper

[Ballistics in Scotland]

There is probably a lot more money per ounce, nowadays, in an original 99 tang sight than in the rifle.