soft vs hard

[Indiana shooter]

Okay so expansion on a heavy 44 mag boolit isn't necessary to bring down a deer but does it help bring 'em down faster? Assuming proper shot placement and proper boolit choice.

Obviously no expansion will equal greater penetration and expansion will equal greater damage. Not to mention that no 2 animals will react the same. Honestly I'm just trying to wrap my head around a non-expanding projectile killing in a timely manner.

What I'm looking for is testimonials from those that have used both to take animals. Is there really any difference in using a softer alloy vs using a harder one?

[Screwbolts]

What your asking is so vague to to me. WFN and Hard works for me. Are you using a RN? Boolit design makes a BIG difference just as words do have meaning.

Ken

[dave roelle]

The critter seems to have a bunch to do with the answer !!!!----------in my limited experience, common deer critters meet their end quicker with expanding bullets.

Nasty old boar hogs seem to come to earth better with two holes in em !!!!! hogs over 200 lbs, the smaller pigs are DRT with expanding bullets.

I like em DRT "overkilled" according to some----------the texas brush country is tough real estate to recover critters.

Dave

[leftiye]

It's about the hole, and where you put the hole. Bigger is better, both in projectile diameter and hole made. Expansion may not be necessary if the boolit in its original diameter and shape (shape matters too) makes a big enough hole (but it WILL make a difference). Further, if there is enough velocity, a smaller than .45 caliber boolit, say .284" dia. can do a LOT of damage. You are correct that expanding any boolit that expends most of its energy into trees, rocks, dirt, etc. after penetrating an animal - will increase its killing ability.

[Indiana shooter]

To rephrase my question, with a well placed shot (say double lung) Will a deer run significantly farther with a non-expanding boolit then with a softer expanding one. I'm using the lee 310-430 mold. I ask this because one of the places I hunt is only about 100 yards from the property line and would rather not have to call the DNR to retrieve my deer.

I have never used a cast boolit on deer and I'm trying to call on the experience of those that have so that I can better make my discussion.

[dave roelle]

Your exactly correct from my experiences--------------soft hollow points, paper patched at say 2500 fps = DRT with a center to high chest bullet strike

http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/drroelle/DSCN0805.jpg (http://s1195.photobucket.com/user/drroelle/media/DSCN0805.jpg.html)

This was the result of 375 grain hollow pointed slugs at 2200 fps on 200 lb hogs

Your 30 caliber will have a bit less energy but IMHO whitetails go to ground quicker than hogs------keep the bullet weight and speed up :)

Dave

[45coltnut]

Indiana Shooter,

I too have been thinking about this as I have only been casting for a year or so. From what I've read and understand, a wide flat nose WFN boolit creates a broad terminal path of shock wave that aids in the killing of an animal. Versus a lesser path or a simple hole from a round nose boolit. I'm sure I didn't state this the best way for understanding. It's sometimes hard to get my thoughts to paper :)

For my main cast gun, a 1885 Hi Wall in 45-70, I'm thinking I'll go with a 405 grain cup point. My hopes are this will give me the best of both worlds. HOWEVER, now comes to play the alloy part that you asked about. I'm going to stick with a 12-15 BHN alloy. As I think this will allow the cup point to mushroom some while not breaking apart.

First, I'll test several profiles of these bullets. Cup point, deep HP point (for reference), WFN and even a Barnes HP bullet. Again, my hopes are to use the cup point.

All of this said, my primary goal is to have an average size hog, goat or deer to be DRT....without excessive meat damage.

[taco650]

Going to follow this one just for my own information.

IS, did you read Goodsteels sticky in this section? He advocates a 50/50 alloy (ww's/pure) IIRC.

[kbstenberg]

I think everyone that has posted has a good handle on the killing capabilities for there caliber/rifle. All of us are concerned about a fast humane death to our quarry, and can accomplish that.
The variable here is the specific animal. And what it takes to bring it down. We have all taken an animal that was hit with a well placed shot, with a bullet that properly did its job. But still it went an unbeleavably long distance until it expired. This is beyond our capability to control. The same animal shot at a different time/circumstance mite be DRT. All we as hunters can hope for is a quick humane kill.
Just my 2 cents. Thanks Kevin
Taco650 Anything Tim wrights is worth reading (studying is a better word)

[44man]

I have over 174 revolver deer kills and many with the .44 since it was all I had for a long time. I use a WLN of 22 bhn, water dropped WW metal. About the farthest a deer has gone is 30 yards with such a large blood trail there is no need to track. I run the Lee 310 at about 1316 fps, same as I ran the LBT 320. I have not found any need to expand the .44.
But listen up, as distance to the deer increases, velocity drops so at 75 to 100, a small amount of expansion is better. Don't get carried away with it. Soften the nose and leave the drive bands hard, putty balls don't shoot good. If accuracy suffers, you can't hit out there anyway. At 100 you are better off with a shoulder shot when using hard lead.
Now going to the .475 with the same alloy and hardness, over 99% of deer drop at the shot without meat loss. Same velocity range as the .44. Heavier boolit that does not stop even full length of a deer. I swear if three were in a line I would kill all of them.
It is false that energy is wasted after penetration. The .475 boolit weight has expanded the distance too.
Never place your confidence in the meplat if out of a velocity range that works. The slower you shoot the boolit the less it does, gets to a cutter instead of transmitting needed energy, you NEED energy. Same as too fast with a hard boolit, my 45-70 BFR at 1630 fps is a cookie cutter only even with a WFN. Softening the whole boolit with a HP turned it into a BOMB, too much so it needs a nose modification.
The pressure wave from the meplat just moves tissue away from the boolit in a secondary wound channel that will collapse if the boolit is too fast. This is where the nose must upset to slow the boolit inside the deer. Much larger animals will slow the boolit from mass but I know little about them.
In the .44 I would not go too far with expansion, it stops penetration. Don't worry about a big hole in the ground after.
If you think a hard boolit in a .44 can't do damage, look at a neck shot. 132725

[bosterr]

Hey 44man, when you say soften the nose, do you mean a hollow point, or are you softening the nose by another means?

[trapper9260]

had cast some 44hp out of pure lead that my brother use in his inline with sabots and with the place shot take the deer down in its track it did not go anywhere.Hope this will help some .

[taco650]

Hey 44man, when you say soften the nose, do you mean a hollow point, or are you softening the nose by another means?

+1, inquiring minds want to know

[44man]

Cast half the nose out of softer lead and fill the rest with hard. No need for a HP.
I had trouble with the .500 JRH using a hard WFN, deer were going over 100 yards with no blood trails. The 440 gr boolit at 1350 fps just trucked through. I made a board to hold my mold level and held the handles shut with a rubber band. I have a small pot for the softer lead, if I remember I used 3# of pure with 1# of WW. Had a small dipper of it in my left hand with a dipper in my right with hard lead. I poured the soft and right away filled the mold with hard.
I only made half the nose soft. That worked on deer like gang busters, dropped 4 out of 5 in their tracks and the last made 20 yards blowing blood.
They blended very good. Just get the mold to heat first. 132823

[DougGuy]

I use 50/50+2% in my 7 1/2" SBH, I can scratch it with a fingernail so bhn 12 or so. My experience with this gun this alloy takes to the Ruger rifling and twist rate like a duck to water.

[44man]

The best thing was I lost no meat to speak of except some on a small doe shoulder. She would not turn so I took out a leg bone, a little nasty right there but not as bad as I would think. A little trimming and bone removal. I sure would not HP this boolit!

[454 shooter]

I once shot a whitetail buck at about 75 yds with a 454 casull 260 gr Speer JHP full power load probably 1600- 1700 fps. Perfect heart shot, the deer was facing me directly. He ran about 100 yds before he fell over. I shot another buck about 40 lbs heavier at 55yds with a Lee 300 gr flat point load about 1100 fps. Hit him broadside in the heart. He walked about 5 yds, turned to look then fell over dead. I've had 454 JHP lung shot deer run 200+ yds and 357 revolver with flat nose cast bullets shot deer fall over after a couple minutes. It's kind of disconcerting to watch a deer at 10 yds just stand there after you shoot. "did I really just miss", then fall over dead.
I'll take a heavy for caliber flat nose bullet any day for hunting in .35 cal or larger. .30 cal rifles may be different. I'm just starting to cast for those.

[taco650]

Cast half the nose out of softer lead and fill the rest with hard. No need for a HP.
I had trouble with the .500 JRH using a hard WFN, deer were going over 100 yards with no blood trails. The 440 gr boolit at 1350 fps just trucked through. I made a board to hold my mold level and held the handles shut with a rubber band. I have a small pot for the softer lead, if I remember I used 3# of pure with 1# of WW. Had a small dipper of it in my left hand with a dipper in my right with hard lead. I poured the soft and right away filled the mold with hard.
I only made half the nose soft. That worked on deer like gang busters, dropped 4 out of 5 in their tracks and the last made 20 yards blowing blood.
They blended very good. Just get the mold to heat first. 132823

Did you try any that were cast completely from a softer alloy such as plain WW's or 50/50?

[44man]

Did you try any that were cast completely from a softer alloy such as plain WW's or 50/50?
I did with the 45-70 BFR and destroyed half a deer. I can't get the accuracy either with softer lead. Too many fliers. 50-50 needs a gas check too. Most of my boolits are PB in the larger calibers.
Most are just WD, WW's too.
To get 50-50 to shoot decent I had to oven harden and I don't like the extra work, getting them to 18-20 BHN had no affect on expansion though. I was thinking of a 75-25 alloy and just water drop.
Future tests needed.

[DougGuy]

Did you try any that were cast completely from a softer alloy such as plain WW's or 50/50?


I did with the 45-70 BFR and destroyed half a deer. I can't get the accuracy either with softer lead. Too many fliers. 50-50 needs a gas check too.


I use 50/50+2% in my 7 1/2" SBH, I can scratch it with a fingernail so bhn 12 or so. My experience with this gun this alloy takes to the Ruger rifling and twist rate like a duck to water.

Yep, my RF boolits in .44 and .45 are Gas Checked, IMO those GCs are one of the required components that made the combo work like it does. 50/50+2% (bhn12), collet style factory crimp, 1:16" RH twist, Ruger lands & grooves, 1180 - 1200f/s velocity, throats .0005" over boolit diameter, long 11° forcing cone, Wolff 30oz trigger return spring.

Everybody does it differently. What you have to do is keep researching, keep trying things until you hit on the combination that the gun likes and you like and can shoot with your best degree of accuracy.

[MT Chambers]

For deer or smaller go softer with a GC, for bigger or tougher game; I'd go harder, faster, with a GC. Has always worked for me in my 45/70. I have also shot buffs. and moose with pure lead bullets in my 50/90 Sharps.

[taco650]

Yep, my RF boolits in .44 and .45 are Gas Checked, IMO those GCs are one of the required components that made the combo work like it does. 50/50+2% (bhn12), collet style factory crimp, 1:16" RH twist, Ruger lands & grooves, 1180 - 1200f/s velocity, throats .0005" over boolit diameter, long 11° forcing cone, Wolff 30oz trigger return spring.

Everybody does it differently. What you have to do is keep researching, keep trying things until you hit on the combination that the gun likes and you like and can shoot with your best degree of accuracy.

I've been working with the Lee 430-310GC for a while now and it hasn't been as easy as I initially thought. My DW 44 just doesn't like it. My SBH 7.5" is coming around but haven't settled on an alloy yet. All I have around is COWW, some pure and some range scrap. I think I'll try some 50/50 of COWW/RS next and water drop it. I've also found that my SBH likes it going at least 1k fps. I tried it around 800 fps but accuracy was terrible. Thanks for the info 44man & DougGuy.

[Blammer]

Of the two deer I've killed with my 44mag handgun, one with a HUGE HP 300gr projectile and the other with a 240gr Round Flat nose. They both died within 30 yds of where they were shot. :)

[44man]

You can't shoot the heavy boolits too slow in the .44 unless you have a 1 in 16" twist. You just need a little more velocity with 1 in 20". The Lee 310, LBT 320, etc, NEEDS around 1300 to 1320 fps.
You can't make the heavies as fast as a 240-250 but you don't need or want that anyway.
I use 21.5 gr of 296, Fed 150 for the Lee and LBT and it has shot out of most .44's the best except the boolits are too heavy for a S&W. The S&W has a faster twist of 1 in 18-3/4" so it could be shot slower but there is too much recoil inertia on parts.
With a Ruger just working up or down 1/2 gr will open groups.
I made a mistake making my mold and it came out 330 gr, I found 21 gr of 296 works best.
I read about a few that use 23 gr with the Lee and it is way too much, pressures are high and accuracy just plain suffers.
If I was shooting 240 to 250 I would soften the nose only to compensate for the higher velocity.
I just can't shoot softer alloys in the whole boolit to satisfy me.
I would in every case, also soften the nose in a .44 rifle. To look for faster with a hard boolit and just the meplat does not work. My grandson shot a big doe with a .44 rifle, behind the shoulder, she spun around and he shot again. The second shot actually came out the first entry hole. I did not pace but she made a good 150 yards. So far I had to drag her down the hill into a neighbor's yard. With the same boolit, the revolver would have her down in a few yards.
Looking at the .454 and how fast they are, I would never use a hard boolit but they don't like too soft for accuracy either so the soft nose would be the answer.
As you stray too far either way with velocity, it is more important to get boolit performance along with accuracy. Then as animals get bigger and bigger, you need to rethink things.
The farther a boolit travels in an animal, the harder you can go.
The first deer I shot with the JRH was over 100 yards and I could not hold still so I made her come to me. I was on foot. When she got about 30 yards and in the clear, I shot her in front---BIG MISTAKE! The boolit was hard and did almost nothing in the lungs but when it reached the liver things started to happen and then the guts! Before exit, it just blew internals to mush, she went up and came down on her belly, not her feet. never seen anything like it. I never want to clean another deer like that. Boolit travel distance and the slowing of it in passage is different then a sideways shot. Dwell time! There is a ring to that, that I have come to believe in.

[Indiana shooter]

So 44man, what would you say the effective velocity range is for a hard boolit is at impact? My kids use a h&r with an 18" barrel in 44mag. My modified lee mold throws boolits at about 255 gr. I have been using the 240 gr XTP down loaded to around 1400 fps (book velocity), they are older and can handle a heavier load now. I'm thinking about using my 255 gr boolits and loading to around 1600 fps. Do you think that to fast for a hard boolit?

[mnewcomb59]

When your hard cast doesn't do any damage the first foot of penetration in the animal, this means you have too much sectional density for the animal. You either have to change the sectional density with expanding a heavy bullet, or going to a lighter bullet. You want the bullet to slow down a little in the animal, not coast clean through losing less than 100 fps.

Same exact reason I prefer 158s in the 357. Much more shock power but still exit wounds every time. Yes I'm a firm believer in penetration and I prefer 2.5-3 foot compared to a hollow point's 14", but I don't need no 5 foot penetration for a deer.

[TXGunNut]

I like a large meplat and an alloy that I know will hold together through a heart-lung shot on small S TX deer or a shoulder hit on a 250+ lb hog and anything in between. I don't shoot 43 Mag but I do hunt with a 45 Colt and I doubt critters can tell the difference. I suspect I get a bit of expansion but I prefer penetration over expansion with major caliber boolits. I hunt the thick stuff so if a critter runs 100 yds it can sometimes be a tough track unless there is a good blood trail. An exit wound helps with that.

[.30-06 fan]

For me as a rookie boolit caster, soft or hard, if you you cant't place the bullet where it needs to go, it want matter to much where your bullet lies on the brunel scale.

[44man]

So 44man, what would you say the effective velocity range is for a hard boolit is at impact? My kids use a h&r with an 18" barrel in 44mag. My modified lee mold throws boolits at about 255 gr. I have been using the 240 gr XTP down loaded to around 1400 fps (book velocity), they are older and can handle a heavier load now. I'm thinking about using my 255 gr boolits and loading to around 1600 fps. Do you think that to fast for a hard boolit?
I think 1600 is too fast for a hard boolit on deer. I would surely soften just the nose. I was amazed how well it worked when I did not soften the entire nose to the drive band. I wanted enough ogive hard for cylinder steerage and they proved very accurate with POI the same as a full hard.
But I had some doubts about how little I softened until I found I was holding a sledge in my hand instead of a stick.
Now to get my paper punch, 45-70 BFR and the sharp stick 317 gr boolits at 1630 fps to do the same. I made a heavier WFN for it and it did not work either.
I am 100% sold on the small soft nose. Very easy to make
There is one thing that bothers me yet, the small dipper loses heat fast so I need to get the lead in the mold quick. I am going to make a ladle out of cast iron with a small cavity for the nose pour so it stays very hot.
I have the LBT soft nose pouring pot, made by Lee. I cant pour a seamless boolit with it.
I tried the reheating of the mold stuff and it is kind of ridiculous, harsh on a mold and so slow it is crazy. With the dipper and a level mold my pace is about the same as ladle casting one alloy.

[white eagle]

I found the one way to make the soft nose is to let the mold get hot not to the point of destroying the mold but like getting continually frosty boolits
I use mainly brass and that material seems to hold heat better but cast iron would be just as good aluminum is hard to regulate but it heats up quick
use a 45 acp on a wire for the nose dipper and follow up with my regular ladle
mainly use small hps but when I want to use a sp thats how I do it

[DougGuy]

Well hell why not just weld the nose in there? Cast a big HP in the hard alloy, use a 50w soldering iron with a 1/8" tip, work some flux down in the bottom of the HP and get the tip of the soldering iron to melting some of the alloy and feed it some pure lead fine shot and solder it in as it fills up.

[Motor]

An interesting thread for sure. It seems for deer and hogs that the bigger calibres have an advantage.

Even without getting into "advanced" casting procedures you can make a big heavy boolit that will kill cleanly and quickly without expantion.

Personally if I had to choose I would take penetration over expantion for a slow moving boolit any time.

Being a muzzleloader hunter and watching soft lead round balls totally flattening out and not going through a deer shoulder bone has left me with this opinion.

There has been some very good information on this thread but very little towards what works best in 30 caliber. The smaller diameter provides a better sectional density but this may only make it penetrate better.

Correct me if I'm wrong. I cast a Lee 160gr 2R TL. This is a pointed boolit. My best shooting load with this boolit shoots 1850f/s. I think this boolit cast at a hardness of 16bhn which I often do, would very likely pass through a deer (without hitting solid bone) like a full metal jacket.

If this is a correct assumption what hardness would work but still be able to punch through a shoulder bone?

Or, believe it or not I,ve made a trim die of sorts. I use this die to file the nose flat after loading for use in tube fed 30-30. With the nose flat would it be a better game boolit than pointed?

Oh. One more thing. I'm not worried about DRT. There is nothing that can make a DRT a sure thing except shot placement as in head or spine and both are low percentage shots and I won't try them.

Motor

[41mag]

Well to date I have only used my 454 to put down one deer and several hogs. I can however say this, that 44 cal 310gr Lee does hit hard in the right velocity range as 44man said.

I pour it as well and having shot it enough to know it shoots well from my Redhawk out to 100yds I have shot lengthwise through my sand filled 5gallon buckets at 25 and 50yds at velocities of around 1300'ish fps.

With the 454 using basically the same bullet in the 300RF I am getting 1550fps with my hunting load. This poured from straight air cooled wheel weights shoot great and hits like a freight train. Everything I have shot with them has hit the ground or more like been knocked to the ground. I posted this a while back but it is still a good demonstration of the impact of one,
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=133237&d=1425813434&thumb=1&stc=1

This was closest to moment of impact at 50yds as I could get form the video. As you can see they hit with some authority. The recovered bullet is in the middle here,
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f285/41nag/Shooting/Cast%20Boolit%20Loading%20and%20Shooting/P7290251.jpg

That said further testing with the Accurate 454280C form my 45 Colt using a bit softer alloy resulted in the following bullets recovered from my sand filled bucket trap at 50yds. These are running about 1100fps over a load of HS-6.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/asset.php?fid=89129&uid=2895&d=1403161880

I put two of these through a decent 250'ish pound hog. Granted I didn't get slow deliberate shot placement as he snuck right up behind the grandson and me while we were sitting on a hillside at the farm. All I had time to do, was draw, point at meat, and shoot. The first shot hit him at about 10yds somewhere just in behind the shoulder as we could easily see the golf ball sized ball of fat from the resulting exit hole when it spun him completely around. The second shot went in somewhat like the first only from the now opposite side as he managed to get a grip on the soft sand and leave the vicinity. He managed to make it a hundred yards or so and get up underneath a tree top covered with vines and we didn't find him until the next afternoon when we followed the "clean up crew" in. It was so thick even they couldn't or wouldn't crawl in after him. Had it been a deer I am sure it would have been a little different but the fat, or gut, from the hog plugged the holes up and he left nothing what so ever for us to follow. Even the dog lost him after about 50yds.

I think that if you were to use straight air cooled WW with a cup point you would probably have about what your looking for. I have some poured up in a similar configuration but haven't had a chance to load them and try them out yet. The RFN however will deliver the goods for sure, but if you wanted just a touch of expansion you could soften it up or use the cup type HP verses the deep wide cavity.

One more illustration before I leave it with you. Here is a pick of a 45-270 SAA bullets I poured up a while back. Its the one on the far left and I used the small HP pin which is about 3/32 in diameter and about 1/4'ish deep. This alloy runs around a 10'ish BHN and was shot out of my 45 Colt at about 1050fps. As you can clearly see it more or less flattens right out and penetration would be lacking. While it might do wonderful on a straight lung shot, anything else might be wasting a good amount of meat as well as leaving a long tracking job ahead of you.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/asset.php?fid=76755&uid=2895&d=1403160095

I realize you are asking about the 44 magnum and the Lee 430310RF, but I thought I would put something up as a comparrison to the alloys your looking into and in the velocity ranges your asking about. I don't have any pics on this PC of that specific bullet so figured I would show what I DID have.

Hope this helps.

[44man]

Air cooled shot fast should work. Try annealing the gas check for them, it increased accuracy for me with air cooled.
For the 30 cal you might need some nose upset too. I never shot a deer with my 30-30 yet, rather use a revolver. But I made some boolits from 75-25% and they shot very good, that might be one to try on deer.

[Motor]

44man, For my 30cal, I cast with lead/linotype. Can you recomend a specific hardness? Also would you advise to make them flat tips or just leave them pointed. My "trim" die makes them have a flat point that is about the same diameter as the primer.

Motor

[waksupi]

Just throwing in an opinion here. As long as the bullet doesn't slump when fired, Brinell is hard enough. Rule of thumb, 1000 fps, Bn12, 1200 fps, Bn14, 1400 fps, Bn 16. Seeing a pattern here? Two Bn points over your velocity.This holds pretty close to what works for me.
These hardnesses can be achieved by varying oven temperatures when hardening.

[Motor]

Thanks that's great. I usually cast them 16bhn. They shoot 1850 f/s from my 7.62x54R. So would you say they would OK to leave pointed or should I make them flat points like I do for the tube fed 30-30?

Motor

[waksupi]

Thanks that's great. I usually cast them 16bhn. They shoot 1850 f/s from my 7.62x54R. So would you say they would OK to leave pointed or should I make them flat points like I do for the tube fed 30-30?

Motor

If you plan on killing anything, better make them flat.

[tdoyka]

i'm a new cast booliter, i've never shot a deer with a cb, and my cb's have to be bought( it'll take a couple of years, then it cast boolits forever). i've killed a pile of deer from the 243 to the 45-70 all with j-word bullets.

what i'm trying to figure out is the cast boolit's brinell hardness number(bhn). my bhn is 13 for the 45-70( http://www.moyerscastbullets.com/index.html ) and my ranch dog( 444 marlin and 30-40 krag) has 95% lead, 2.5% tin, 2.5% antimony( http://www.carolinacastbullets.com/ ) i think it is 12-14bhn?

anyway, how does hardness and soft count? is it 10, 12, 14, 16 ....bhn? or do you find the lead, tin, and antimony mix?

i'm sorry about hijacking this.

[Ramjet-SS]

44 for deer Devestator HP = DRT if you hit them in the boiler room you will not damage allot of meat.
45-70 I have great performance with the 340 grain HP Gould design HP at around 1100-1500 FPS.

[44man]

I just have no experience with cast and 30 calibers but a flat nose would be my choice with just enough expansion to not stop full penetration. I can't say what alloy but do not be too hard. I need fairly hard in the Marlin to grip rifling and think my boolits are too hard for deer. The .30 is a candidate for a softer nose. I would not go the full length of the nose either. About half should do it. Can't have any slump as Waksupi explains. I would not go full pure lead for the nose either.
I can not give a BHN.
But seeing what a hard boolit does from the .44, there is no way I would use a soft HP. I am not good enough to see the angle of the dangle as to where a boolit will exit. Deer are rarely exactly 90* and a boolit can exit a shoulder with a behind the shoulder shot. A boolit that stops inside is just not good. I wish the energy dump stuff would go away.

[44man]

When your hard cast doesn't do any damage the first foot of penetration in the animal, this means you have too much sectional density for the animal. You either have to change the sectional density with expanding a heavy bullet, or going to a lighter bullet. You want the bullet to slow down a little in the animal, not coast clean through losing less than 100 fps.

Same exact reason I prefer 158s in the 357. Much more shock power but still exit wounds every time. Yes I'm a firm believer in penetration and I prefer 2.5-3 foot compared to a hollow point's 14", but I don't need no 5 foot penetration for a deer.
How much sectional density does a 440 gr WFN have?
But you also believe in penetration, very good. Deer are small sideways and you need to get boolit work faster. What is left over after is of no meaning at all. There is no such thing as wasted energy after a boolit does it's work.

[mnewcomb59]

Yes there is wasted energy if your sectional density is too high. You either need to lower sectional density by expansion or choosing a lighter bullet. If you shoot a deer with a bullet that doesn't slow down in the animal, you will have a bad time. Even you said 1600 fps is too much for hard cast Lee 310, that damage reduces above a certain velocity. Why would that be? Probably because the bullet goes in the deer at 1600 and comes out at 1500.

If you do the math, the bullet at 1600 fps has 1764 foot pounds, but if it exits at 1500 there is still 1552 foot pounds. 220 foot pounds put into the deer, about like a 38 snubby. You would have a comparatively huge wound channel if the bullet expanded and only exited at 800 fps. You would have a bigger wound channel with a 1700 foot pound 240 hard cast because it slows down more in the animal.

[44man]

Yes there is wasted energy if your sectional density is too high. You either need to lower sectional density by expansion or choosing a lighter bullet. If you shoot a deer with a bullet that doesn't slow down in the animal, you will have a bad time. Even you said 1600 fps is too much for hard cast Lee 310, that damage reduces above a certain velocity. Why would that be? Probably because the bullet goes in the deer at 1600 and comes out at 1500.

If you do the math, the bullet at 1600 fps has 1764 foot pounds, but if it exits at 1500 there is still 1552 foot pounds. 220 foot pounds put into the deer, about like a 38 snubby. You would have a comparatively huge wound channel if the bullet expanded and only exited at 800 fps. You would have a bigger wound channel with a 1700 foot pound 240 hard cast because it slows down more in the animal.
Now I can't disagree that the boolit must be slowed. you explain it very well and is what I have found. The math is my problem. Also SD. I hate math and figures but you do have a good handle on it.
I work by experience but are you wrong? Hell no, just a different way to explain it.
I fully believe in energy placed where needed and any left over after penetration is of no meaning but a boolit that does not impart the needed energy is bad.
I will never believe in a hole cut only. A .45 cuts a bigger hole then a .44 is nothing but bull. You need the boolit to use energy inside an animal.

[bosterr]

Last season, I hunted with my Great Grand Dad's Win. Model 94 32-40 rifle. Accurate's 32-180C going at 1675 fps with IMR 4895, .220" meplat. Lyman tang sight and the original front ivory bead. A big doe came out onto the right of way and stopped. Range was previously lasered at 120 yds. The deer arched up at the shot and ran into cover. No blood at all where it was hit, but I expected that. I walked into the woods at it's tracks and out ahead of me 40 yds. away, it lay, head down and breathing hard. Another shot into the head, and it was all over. Boolits were cast of water dropped wheel weights. I had made a few with 50/50 WW/lead air-cooled that I never got to test to see if they shot the same, but I suspected they would have. I can't imagine the outcome would have been a whole lot different. The lungs were undamaged except for a pencil sized hole through. It was a perfect behind the shoulder shot and elevation was perfect as well. I kept saying to myself I was going to take nothing but a shoulder shot, but old habits die hard. Next time the rifle will be loaded with the air cooled 50/50 ww/lead, IF I carry it again. I now have a BFR 475 Linebaugh to try out.

[44man]

Yep, the pencil hole bothers me even with a very large caliber.

[white eagle]

I have found that math and hunting have very little if anything in common
experience with both bullets and boolits in the hunting fields trumps any calculator
if your using a boolit with a gas check your alloy can be a bit softer for the expansion your seek
I like a shallow hp or a cup point for hunting
shot a doe one year at 120 or so yards with a 358 win I believe the alloy was ac ww and the boolit hit her in the chest (facing me) and traveled the entire length of her and exited the rear the only way I actually knew this for sure is I found the gas check near her rear end when I butchered the carcass
no expansion and like the other poster needed an additional shot to finish

[Brett Ross]

My only cast Boolit deer was taken by my 8x56R, lee C338-220-1R. I used Bruce Bs method of soft tipping. The deer made it about 60 yds after a 75 yard shot. I was unable to recover the boolet (pass through) but left much blood splatter and easy to follow blood trail. The exit wound and wound channel did show expansion. The thing I like most about this boolit, is my practice round shoots exactly like my hunting round. Sadly Iowa closed the only season I could hunt center fire but if they re-open a center fire season (crossing my fingers) I will be using the same combination again.
Tony

[44man]

Last season, I hunted with my Great Grand Dad's Win. Model 94 32-40 rifle. Accurate's 32-180C going at 1675 fps with IMR 4895, .220" meplat. Lyman tang sight and the original front ivory bead. A big doe came out onto the right of way and stopped. Range was previously lasered at 120 yds. The deer arched up at the shot and ran into cover. No blood at all where it was hit, but I expected that. I walked into the woods at it's tracks and out ahead of me 40 yds. away, it lay, head down and breathing hard. Another shot into the head, and it was all over. Boolits were cast of water dropped wheel weights. I had made a few with 50/50 WW/lead air-cooled that I never got to test to see if they shot the same, but I suspected they would have. I can't imagine the outcome would have been a whole lot different. The lungs were undamaged except for a pencil sized hole through. It was a perfect behind the shoulder shot and elevation was perfect as well. I kept saying to myself I was going to take nothing but a shoulder shot, but old habits die hard. Next time the rifle will be loaded with the air cooled 50/50 ww/lead, IF I carry it again. I now have a BFR 475 Linebaugh to try out.
Watch the .475, it is the Holy Grail for deer. Expand that boolit and you will not need a grinder! [smilie=l:

[Swede44mag]

I shot a deer with a 240 grain WW cast Keith Style SWC using an S&W 44mag that ran from left to right about 15yards hit it with a fast shot in the lungs it went down in another 15yards. I shot another deer with a Raging Bull 454 using 250 grain mag XTP bullets about 50 yards away I hit behind the lungs the deer traveled between 250 & 300 yards. We found it by tracking a drop here and a drop there in the snow. It was hiding under a tree in the brush looking at me when I shot it in the head.

I have shot deer using swaged 240 grain 44mag SWC in my MK85 at various ranges they were bang flops being hit between the front leg up into the spine. I also have done the same with a 50cal patched RB out of the same BP rifle.

My father was in my tree-stand and shot a nice Buck on the run in tall weeds he aimed at the Bucks nose and hit him in the rump. We went to look for the Buck and after about two hours we found the Buck about 15yards from where it went down. When I said I see the Buck it jumped up and my son shot it in the rump on the other side. The Buck stumbled around and I took a shot at 15ft or less hitting the Buck in the neck totally shattering the spine using a swaged 240 grain SWC with a gas check. He was shot with two MK85 BP rifles and one Black Knight BP rifle.

I shot a doe through the heart with my 30-06 about 15 yards away while standing in a tree stand. The doe ran in circles about 30 yards away not knowing where to go while painting the weeds red.

The point is yes a soft boolit will expand more than a hard boolit but a reliable humane kill is all about boolit/bullet placement.

[bosterr]

Ok, 44man, I'm going to hold you to that! I wasn't planning on softening the bullet. My 75% meplat is only .020 smaller than your 80%. I doubt a deer will tell the difference!

[44man]

Ok, 44man, I'm going to hold you to that! I wasn't planning on softening the bullet. My 75% meplat is only .020 smaller than your 80%. I doubt a deer will tell the difference!
They sure wont. Only thing with the .475 is to hold tight on deer. Shoot the same grip tension you sighted with or the fast barrel rise and torque will make you shoot high.
It is a nasty gun to shoot so never relax on deer. It takes control the .44 does not need.

[bosterr]

My 475 isn't the nastiest handgun in my safe. I'm finding out any velocity much over 1300 fps leaves the bore leaded too much. So far I've tried LARS BAC and Carnuba Red and some of my own concoction. Powders tried so far: 296, WC820 and 4227. Water dropped clip on WW.

[44man]

My 475 isn't the nastiest handgun in my safe. I'm finding out any velocity much over 1300 fps leaves the bore leaded too much. So far I've tried LARS BAC and Carnuba Red and some of my own concoction. Powders tried so far: 296, WC820 and 4227. Water dropped clip on WW.
My 420 gr is going 1329 fps, no need for more. It is also a PB.
I use Felix lube.