What's the deal with Obama trying to ban 5.6mm amo?

[Doggonekid]

How can a guy that smart be so dumb? You can't pass a law that brakes a law. I have not been a member of the NRA for several years now, but it is plain to see that I need to join again. I'm glad to say I didn't vote for the guy. I still can let my voice be heard. What he is trying to do is illegal. You start banning one caliber and then it becomes two. What next .45? This is going down a bad road. It is plain to see that our President has been misinformed about law abiding citizens that own guns.

[MaryB]

He has not been misinformed, he cannot force this country into communism as long as we are armed. Look for a mass attack type scenario in the next year... hundreds dead type scene so he can crow about how bad guns are in public hands. Once he has the sheep scared they will cram through bans on everything they can.

[runfiverun]

he can, has, and will do so again.
the next 2 years are gonna be something to behold.

[lefty o]

what cave have you been sleeping in, obamma the socialist doesnt give 2 turds about existing laws or the constitution. he is doing what he wants, how he wants, when he wants, virtually unchallenged, because the congress, and the supreme court dont have the juevo's to slap the little foreigner across his miserable lying face.

[BethelHntr]

It's time to remove funding from him, I'd rather have him on a golf coarse than muckin up our freedom.

[matrixcs]

This is just the beginning. After the dust settles from this there will be something else that is banned. This will continue until we have only sticks and stones to protect ourselves with. The PLAN continues....

[Houndog]

I don't think you folks are reading the unconstitutional edict right. His little minion at ATF wants to ban M855\SS109 BULLETS, not 223/556 ammo. The best thing I can say about this particular bullet is it's cheap. They are inaccurate compaired to GOOD bullets and although they penetrate well, do not expand to leave a good wound channel. They punch a small hole in most cases. We ARE NOT bound by the Geneva Convention to use FMJ bullets! We can use a more lethal bullet . I think the idiot at ATF is making a BIG mistake! Once the people using M855 shoot something loaded with a better bullet, see how much more accurate it is and how much more damage something like a Hornady or Sierra bullet does folks will forget them for the most part. Yes some folks will have to spend a little more $$$ to shoot, but even the bargan basement lines from Federal, Remington, Winchester and CCI are MUCH better!

[Lead Fred]

Once they ban one, the rest will follow

They can have all mine, when they come to the door for them

I will give until it hurts

[FISH4BUGS]

This is a result of the ATFE ruling that any armor piercing ammo/bullets that are fired in a pistol is not legal. So you now have companies that are taking AR15's and making them into a "pistol". Yeah....right...pistol my rear end. A 30 round 223 "pistol". A 30 round 762x39 "pistol". Yeah....right. Have you even shot one of those? What a waste of metal and wood.
This also comes on the heels of the "arm brace" used for the "pistols". ARM brace? Are you kidding me? That is a shoulder stock that MIGHT be used as an "arm brace" for the "pistol".
How many times do you want to poke the bear? The ATFE is just following their own twisted logic. It makes sense if you are the ATFE.
If you want an SBR, pay the tax and do it right. Otherwise we are all reaping what SIG and others are sowing to go right up to the edge of the law and then some.
There are those that argue that these are legal weapons. They are, but please don't insult my intelligence by calling them "pistols" or "arm braces". I may only have one eye but it works and I know what I see.
The unintended consequences are that if it is a "pistol" any armor piercing ammo can't be used in pistols. That is the law.
Capiche?

[Garyshome]

This is a result of the ATFE ruling that any armor piercing ammo/bullets that are fired in a pistol is not legal. So you now have companies that are taking AR15's and making them into a "pistol". Yeah....right...pistol my rear end. A 30 round 223 "pistol". A 30 round 762x39 "pistol". Yeah....right. Have you even shot one of those? What a waste of metal and wood.
This also comes on the heels of the "arm brace" used for the "pistols". ARM brace? Are you kidding me? That is a shoulder stock that MIGHT be used as an "arm brace" for the "pistol".
How many times do you want to poke the bear? The ATFE is just following their own twisted logic. It makes sense if you are the ATFE.
If you want an SBR, pay the tax and do it right. Otherwise we are all reaping what SIG and others are sowing to go right up to the edge of the law and then some.
There are those that argue that these are legal weapons. They are, but please don't insult my intelligence by calling them "pistols" or "arm braces". I may only have one eye but it works and I know what I see.
The unintended consequences are that if it is a "pistol" any armor piercing ammo can't be used in pistols. That is the law.
Capiche?
+1!!!!

[762 shooter]

Back in the good ole days, if you poked a bear with enough pointed sticks it died.8-)

762

[GabbyM]

Go over to AR-15 dot come and read any thread referencing SS 109 ammo. You probably won't get through ten post before someone calls them armor piercing. Been seeing it for years. ATF probably figures if they are that dump then we'll get* um.
My money is on them coming after all calibers of solid copper alloy bullets along with any of the new technology bullets. IMHO ATF does not give a hoot one way or the other. Now that they've stirred the nest here coming into election season Politicians on both sides of this fence will be raking in huge donations. Guess who gives orders to ATF ,yep, politicians. Then consider the obvious that so called lobbyist are greasing the palms of high ranking ATF admins to do some of this tripe. ATF IMHO is one of the most corrupt and rotten law enforcement agencies ever to crawl on this earth. I think it's safe to say they have it all over the IRS when it comes to corruption and political henchman activities. US Government needs to fire at least 300 thousand people in several departments.

[country gent]

It has been ruled arms are protected but no where in the constitution or laws is ammo protected this is a new tackt being tried by the antis thru Him and his supporters. Like it or not ammo has been baned or restricted for years Do to new technologies that have came out. Winchesters black talon was one that I remeber.

[Love Life]

This whole fiasco is a soup sandwich.

[ole 5 hole group]

How can a guy that smart be so dumb?

Are you equating "smart" with intelligent? If so, I think you need to reconsider his abilities. Now, as a socialist, he was taught and mentored by some hard core socialists who have so far prevailed in the "news media", college campuses and probably the majority of members of congress in the good ole USA.

[Wis. Tom]

What we cannot understand, is the patience that the socialist show. They go for the gun, too much backlash, so they shelve it for the next crisis, then when time, put it back on the front burner. If they can't get all the guns, what's next? They chip away at the ammo supply, one by one, taking each little by little, but each law, in it's self, is a victory. Just look at the Germany movement of Hitler, one by one, until finally, enough was chipped away, that enough power was there, to try bigger and better things. You must understand that our guns are all that is left. Healthcare, check, banks, check, youth, check, food lines govt. funded(ETB), check, internet, check, media, check, as you can see, the list is getting small, and our gun ownership is their now their main concern to each is standing between a complete govt. takeover. Interesting times, to say the least.

[dakotashooter2]

I don't think you folks are reading the unconstitutional edict right. His little minion at ATF wants to ban M855\SS109 BULLETS, not 223/556 ammo. The best thing I can say about this particular bullet is it's cheap. They are inaccurate compaired to GOOD bullets and although they penetrate well, do not expand to leave a good wound channel. They punch a small hole in most cases. We ARE NOT bound by the Geneva Convention to use FMJ bullets! We can use a more lethal bullet . I think the idiot at ATF is making a BIG mistake! Once the people using M855 shoot something loaded with a better bullet, see how much more accurate it is and how much more damage something like a Hornady or Sierra bullet does folks will forget them for the most part. Yes some folks will have to spend a little more $$$ to shoot, but even the bargan basement lines from Federal, Remington, Winchester and CCI are MUCH better!

A large percentage of the Minions using ARs don't really care if the ammo is accurate or not..... They just want to shoot as fast as they can as cheaply as they can......


This is a result of the ATFE ruling that any armor piercing ammo/bullets that are fired in a pistol is not legal. So you now have companies that are taking AR15's and making them into a "pistol". Yeah....right...pistol my rear end.
I agree that these weapons are NOT pistols. I suspect that the ATF approved this configuration of the "pistol" knowing that they could come back and use it as an excuse to ban this type of ammo. I also question how you can ban an existing type of ammo just because a weapon is modified to accept it.

[GabbyM]

Obama is not dumb. He and all the other minions of his ilk are simply evil.

Just last night the talking heads on TV were wondering how the President could be so naïve to believe Iran in these nuclear talks. Well dugh, he isn't. He knows as well as the rest of the world Iran will do great harm in this world if they get nukes. That gentleman is just one more of his goals. People try very hard to overcomplicate a very simple thing.


We have in office. A president who is fine with setting back watching Christianity destroyed in Africa and the Middle East. This is not because he doesn't see it. Nor is it because he does not care. Obama and much of the world population are puppets. Puppeteers name is evil.

[tomme boy]

This is about being able to re-classify what ammo is. Most high power centerfire hunting ammo will penetrate soft body armor. If they can re-classify this than they can re-classify your 30-30 ammo.

[quilbilly]

Nothing so terrifies nazis, fascists, communists, peronists (like Big O), and other tyrants as peasants with the means to resist. Criminals are not a threat to the government but armed citizens are. One of the reasons Big O has refused to call the jihadist terrorists Islamic is because he wants to keep his options open to declare counterrevolutionaries in this country terrorists just like every other Marxist tyrant has done for the last 25 years so he can send out his minions accordingly. Very predictable. Anybody who supports the Constitutions, free markets, and individual liberty has been a counterrevolutionary for almost a century.

[freebullet]

Blaming owners of ar15 pistols for something a bunch of tyrannical liberals are doing Is Like Blaming This Website for Lead pollution.

If it meets the definition of pistol then it's a pistol get over it.

The real problem is idiots, they are winning. They will continue to do so as long as we are not in agreement.

[karlrudin]

Here's the problem, "The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men Do Nothing", this is the cause of the problem, "The definition of an extreme authoritarian is one who is willing blindly to assume that government accusations are true without any evidence presented or opportunity to contest those accusations, and this is the answer to the problem, "hen a government fails to protect those rights, it is not only the right, but also the duty of the people to overthrow that government. In its place, the people should establish a government that is designed to protect those rights." In my humble opinion.

[RogerDat]

LEOPA was passed in 1986 so hardly a "new" ban. M855 projectiles would have been banned except for an exemption for ammo that met certain criteria. What did change was the marketing of high capacity handguns that would chamber the 5.56 ammo which meant that the criteria for exemption were no longer met.

I highly recommend reading the actual ATF document on the subject rather than taking what some talking head, internet site, or people like myself tell you.
http://www.atf.gov/sites/default/files/assets/Library/Notices/atf_framework_for_determining_whether_certain_proj ectiles_are_primarily_intended_for_sporting_purpos es.pdf

What I think is of greater concern at least to hunters is all the non-lead alternative ammo has to go through the exemption process. Zinc cast boolit also looks to me like it might be in violation. I would also want to apply pressure to make sure those that own the types of ammo that lost the exemption are not made criminals by selling some of their existing supply.

You have until March 16th for Public comments and the channels for those comments are listed at the end of the document I provided a link to. Blaming Obama for something Congress did almost 30 years ago seems pretty pointless. Frankly this law was intended to protect law enforcement officers so I think it is doubtful Congress will make any changes to allow steel core ammo that fits an AR-15 style pistol.

The good news is this only applies to steel core and other than price I don't think most will find the FMJ 62 gr. any problem to shoot or purchase unless law is amended by congress because the law does not apply to FMJ unless jacket is greater than 25% of the weight, or I should say they will find FMJ works fine once the panic buying subsides.... yet again. [smilie=b:

Two key definitions - armor piercing means goes through body armor, bullet proof vests as typically worn by law enforcement. Banned Ammo - Only applies to 5.56 M855 and SS109 projectiles NOT all 5.56/.223 ammo.

Me if I had some greentip I would totally sell it for the outrageous prices it is going for and hold the money to buy FMJ 62 gr. once things settled down. Even checked my supplies thinking maybe I'm rich.... but no all mine is FMJ so sad. But found 300 rounds of 22 LR forgotten about, me happy again.

[Artful]

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/mar/2/white-house-says-ammo-ban-will-save-cops-lives/


By Dave Boyer (http://www.washingtontimes.com/staff/dave-boyer/) - The Washington Times - Monday, March 2, 2015
The White House said Monday that President Obama believes a ban on bullets commonly used with the AR-15 rifle will save police officers’ lives.

“We are looking at additional ways to protect our brave men and women in law enforcement, and believe that this process is valuable for that reason alone,” said White House press secretary Josh Earnest.


The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives is accepting public comment on an administration proposal to ban .223 M855 “green tip” ammunition most often used with AR-15 rifles. House lawmakers from both parties, as well as sportsmen and some law enforcement officials, are objecting the move.


Mr. Earnest called it a “common-sense step.”


“The president has long believed that there are some common-sense steps that we can take … to ensure that we’re protecting the Second Amendment rights of law-abiding Americans while also taking some common-sense steps to prevent people who shouldn’t have guns from getting them,” he said.


Mr. Earnest added, “This seems to be an area where everyone should agree that if there are armor-piercing bullets available that can fit into easily concealed weapons, that it puts our law enforcement at considerably more risk.”



Two top House Republicans, Majority Leader Kevin McCarthy and Judiciary Committee Chairman Bob Goodlatte of Virginia, said the administration is on an “illegitimate path” and vowed to stop the proposal with legislation if necessary.


“The Obama administration sees no bounds in its attempt to push its left-wing agenda through executive fiat,” they said in a statement. “Because the president failed to ban certain firearms in the past, the administration is now twisting current law to go after ammunition. This is unacceptable.”


More than 100 members of Congress have signed a letter opposing the move on ammo.

“[The ban] will interfere with Second Amendment rights by disrupting the market for ammunition that law abiding Americans use for sporting and other legitimate purposes,” reads the letter addressed to ATF Director Todd Jones.


In their letter to Mr. Jones, lawmakers disputed the administration’s claim that a ban would provide added protection for police.


“Millions upon millions of M855 rounds have been sold and used in the U.S., yet the ATF has not even alleged, much less offered evidence, that even one such round has been fired from a handgun at a police officer,” they wrote.


A top official with the firearms industry’s trade association called the White House’s argument “bogus.”


“All rifle ammo made with lead ammo is able to penetrate a soft body ‘vest’ because of the high velocity of rifle rounds,” said Lawrence Keane, senior vice president and general counsel of the National Shooting Sports Foundation. “So banning M855 does not advance law officer safety. No police officer has ever been shot and killed with a so-called ‘armor piercing’ bullet fired from a handgun that penetrated a vest.”




As far as history of rifle cartridge chambered Handguns the earliest that comes to my mind is the Thompson Center Contender Originally the chamberings were on the low end of the recoil spectrum such as .22 LR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.22_Long_Rifle), .22 WMR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.22_Winchester_Magnum_Rimfire), .22 Hornet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.22_Hornet), .38 Special (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.38_Special), and .22 Remington Jet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.22_Remington_Jet), but as Magnum calibers took off in the 1970s, the Contender quickly became very popular with shooting enthusiasts. By the way in a contender the 22 Super Jet as it was called clocked 2900 fps w/ a 40 grain pill and would defeat any soft vest of the time.

[Artful]

Blaming Obama for something Congress did almost 30 years ago seems pretty pointless. Frankly this law was intended to protect law enforcement officers so I think it is doubtful Congress will make any changes to allow steel core ammo that fits an AR-15 style pistol.

The good news is this only applies to steel core and other than price I don't think most will find the FMJ 62 gr. any problem to shoot or purchase unless law is amended by congress because the law does not apply to FMJ unless jacket is greater than 25% of the weight, or I should say they will find FMJ works fine once the panic buying subsides.... yet again. [smilie=b:

Two key definitions - armor piercing means goes through body armor, bullet proof vests as typically worn by law enforcement. Banned Ammo - Only applies to 5.56 M855 and SS109 projectiles NOT all 5.56/.223 ammo.


Obama and his little pen writing memo's is changing the regulations to not be in the spirit that the law was written. Look up historical articles from the time - they were worried about KTW not rifle rounds in handguns - they had them then Sillywet shooters had been using them since the 70's.

There are NO BULLET PROOF vests - never have been - vest only designed to stop certain rounds. The "cop killer bullet ban" was a flawed bit of liberal logic - and passed on "feel good" intentions - but the crafter of the law - who was an ex-LEO knew the danger of the law and made sure to have exemptions put in place - knowing full well that it was a slippery slope to make all hunting ammo (which will defeat all the soft body armor at the time) banned. Be interesting to melt out a FMJ 40 grain .224 and see what percentage of weight it is.

[JWFilips]

Trying To? Heck if he decrees it ...it is done! "All Hail Hister!" ( Nostradamus was right! modern historians just got the time frame wrong! Any translation of Hister in Islam?)

[MaryB]

We should NOT have to pay a tax to exercise a RIGHT. It is like a poll tax, illegal! An SBR is great for home defense, small and easy to manuever



This is a result of the ATFE ruling that any armor piercing ammo/bullets that are fired in a pistol is not legal. So you now have companies that are taking AR15's and making them into a "pistol". Yeah....right...pistol my rear end. A 30 round 223 "pistol". A 30 round 762x39 "pistol". Yeah....right. Have you even shot one of those? What a waste of metal and wood.
This also comes on the heels of the "arm brace" used for the "pistols". ARM brace? Are you kidding me? That is a shoulder stock that MIGHT be used as an "arm brace" for the "pistol".
How many times do you want to poke the bear? The ATFE is just following their own twisted logic. It makes sense if you are the ATFE.
If you want an SBR, pay the tax and do it right. Otherwise we are all reaping what SIG and others are sowing to go right up to the edge of the law and then some.
There are those that argue that these are legal weapons. They are, but please don't insult my intelligence by calling them "pistols" or "arm braces". I may only have one eye but it works and I know what I see.
The unintended consequences are that if it is a "pistol" any armor piercing ammo can't be used in pistols. That is the law.
Capiche?

[MaryB]

When my nephews visit we play a game. Use bounce targets and see who can get the most consecutive hits in the shortest time using the shot timer app on my cell phone. Miss and your turn is done. Also score points, each ground hit is 1 point, air hit 3 a followup air hit 10 points... loads of fun, very fast shooting, lots of ammo. M855 worked well for it.


A large percentage of the Minions using ARs don't really care if the ammo is accurate or not..... They just want to shoot as fast as they can as cheaply as they can......

I agree that these weapons are NOT pistols. I suspect that the ATF approved this configuration of the "pistol" knowing that they could come back and use it as an excuse to ban this type of ammo. I also question how you can ban an existing type of ammo just because a weapon is modified to accept it.

[MaryB]

Key language "small easily concealable weapons". Show me an AR pistol that is easily concealed!!! they are at least 16 inches long with the buffer tube.

[Cmm_3940]

U.S.C. 921(a)(17)(B) provides:

(B) The term “armor piercing ammunition” means—

(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper or depleted uranium; or

(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.



Regarding this, please note

(i) The bullet does not contain a core that is one ... or any combination ... of the metals listed.
The core is lead, and there is a mild steel insert placed on top.

(ii) The bullet was not designed for use in a pistol, the jacket does not make up more than 25% of the bullet weight, and it is not 'larger than .22 caliber'.

Therefore, under these rules, M855 ammunition does not qualify as being "armor piercing ammunition", thus rendering the 'sporting purposes' exemption a moot point.

Not that I expect anyone to listen this late in the game though.. :-(

[nagantguy]

I do not remember the 2nd amendment saying anything at all about sporting purposes...... We can stand and fight if needed now or tell our grandchildren that we are sorry they are slaves.

[GabbyM]

Any center fire rifle on my rack will defeat soft body armor. Any larger than the 22's will defeat the ceramic plate armor.
the way a 223 defeats soft armor is one of two ways. It either punches a hole through. Or takes the layers of cloth along for the ride through the body. My pocket knife will also defeat armor. As does a well aimed rock.

[GabbyM]

Where in the 2nd amendment does it say? We have the right to bear arms until a constable invents a chest plate to repel our balls.

Don't let them confuse you with double talk. Its' simple as the white hats VS the black hats. NO one and I mean NO one wears a gray hat. Many do however wear a very tall dunce hat.

[RogerDat]

Chris I think in addition to being .22 it also has to be 40 gr. or under and in a rimfire cartridge for it to be excluded. Greentip are 62 gr. center fire so they don't get excluded by that standard. The more than 25% jacket weight rule is defining what does get regulated by this act.

Considering those handguns run $1,200 I would not expect the average criminal to have them, which also means not many opportunities for an officer to have been shot by one. Thompson Contenders are excluded from being considered a handgun because they are single shot. Read the ATF document! Not because you agree with it but so you will be able to make an argument based on the actual framework, its basis and the rules.

As to Congress is "going to do something" and "has signatures of 100 members" Last time I checked that was getting to be around 25% of Congressional members, and while such a minority can block things they can not pass a thing with 100 members. More posing and posturing by elected officials. Only thing that can make a stupid law worse is a politician blowing smoke about how they are going to "fix it" when they know darn well they can't.

The law as written clearly does not require an exception for 5.56 m855 and the framework and guidelines being used by the ATF to apply or interpret the act seem in accordance with that law. Not that it is the only possible interpretation but certainly not an off the wall one either. If enough people write or call saying we don't agree with that interpretation it might make some difference but frankly neither Congress or the President can actually order the ATF to approve the exemption. Maybe the Attorney General or ATF director can since the act leaves it up to their discretion.

Congress wrote this law, long before Obama was president, it does not as some have claimed involve an executive order. Ranting at or blaming Obama is pointless in all respects. Might be fun but not terribly accurate of effective. If you are going to argue against this you might try reading this and borrowing the thoughtful on point arguments it contains. http://nssf.org/share/PDF/House-AP-Ammo-Ltr-to-Director-Jones.pdf

That and contacting your elected official to make those points provided by that link might make a difference, if nothing else if congress holds hearings and examines the actions but "decides" to do nothing (since they don't have the votes) they will still preserve that Congress does have the right to a voice in the implementation of laws they pass. This could be important down the road.

Have to do better than the "slippery slope" argument because that only convinces people that already agree with you. Projecting a hypothetical bad thing that might happen seldom does a very good job of convincing folks who are undecided, too easy for the other side to point to a hypothetical good thing that might happen. Their projection is every bit as valid a guess as yours. Which is part of what makes this issue a tough one. There is really no sound reason that this specific type of projectile is needed, it really is not significantly any better than FMJ of the same weight which is not impacted. Which makes it harder to not have to use the a potential misapplication down the road argument.

[BethelHntr]

Chris I think in addition to being .22 it also has to be 40 gr. or under and in a rimfire cartridge for it to be excluded. Greentip are 62 gr. center fire so they don't get excluded by that standard. The more than 25% jacket weight rule is defining what does get regulated by this act.

Considering those handguns run $1,200 I would not expect the average criminal to have them, which also means not many opportunities for an officer to have been shot by one. Thompson Contenders are excluded from being considered a handgun because they are single shot. Read the ATF document! Not because you agree with it but so you will be able to make an argument based on the actual framework, its basis and the rules.

As to Congress is "going to do something" and "has signatures of 100 members" Last time I checked that was getting to be around 25% of Congressional members, and while such a minority can block things they can not pass a thing with 100 members. More posing and posturing by elected officials. Only thing that can make a stupid law worse is a politician blowing smoke about how they are going to "fix it" when they know darn well they can't.

The law as written clearly does not require an exception for 5.56 m855 and the framework and guidelines being used by the ATF to apply or interpret the act seem in accordance with that law. Not that it is the only possible interpretation but certainly not an off the wall one either. If enough people write or call saying we don't agree with that interpretation it might make some difference but frankly neither Congress or the President can actually order the ATF to approve the exemption. Maybe the Attorney General or ATF director can since the act leaves it up to their discretion.

Congress wrote this law, long before Obama was president, it does not as some have claimed involve an executive order. Ranting at or blaming Obama is pointless in all respects. Might be fun but not terribly accurate of effective. If you are going to argue against this you might try reading this and borrowing the thoughtful on point arguments it contains. http://nssf.org/share/PDF/House-AP-Ammo-Ltr-to-Director-Jones.pdf

That and contacting your elected official to make those points provided by that link might make a difference, if nothing else if congress holds hearings and examines the actions but "decides" to do nothing (since they don't have the votes) they will still preserve that Congress does have the right to a voice in the implementation of laws they pass. This could be important down the road.

Have to do better than the "slippery slope" argument because that only convinces people that already agree with you. Projecting a hypothetical bad thing that might happen seldom does a very good job of convincing folks who are undecided, too easy for the other side to point to a hypothetical good thing that might happen. Their projection is every bit as valid a guess as yours. Which is part of what makes this issue a tough one. There is really no sound reason that this specific type of projectile is needed, it really is not significantly any better than FMJ of the same weight which is not impacted. Which makes it harder to not have to use the a potential misapplication down the road argument.

Let say that the lead bullet was in this situation. There is really no sound reason that this type of projectile is needed, It is not any better than a fmj infact it could harm the environment.

I suppose this wouldn't make a difference to you, would it?

People like inexpensive ammo, That's why we build lead bullets, That's why people buy M855.

[MaryB]

M855 DOES NOT fit the law as written! It has a small soft steel tip in front of mostly lead core. Soft steel is not one of the listed materials and the jacket is not more than 25% of bullet weight.

http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Ammo_Cross_Sections/SS109.jpg

[Cmm_3940]

Lead spot price is .78/lb., steel scrap is around .12/lb. I was always under the impression that the steel insert was to cut down materials cost, and the 'penetrator' part was just marketing spin.

[dakotashooter2]

(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.


One might note that these rounds were not designed with the intent of being used in handguns.......as this law requires.

It is basically an attempt to take cheap ammo off the market......................

[tomme boy]

That tip is not soft steel. And the reason for this ammo was to penetrate a Russian Kevlar helmet at 500m. Not as a cost savings.

[fouronesix]

This notice has been up on Barne's website for quite a while and has not been updated. No idea about any resolution, but I assume it's related to all this "AP ammo/bullet" junk out of DC.
http://www.barnesbullets.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/12/Barnes-Customer-Update-Banded-Solids-2012-2.pdf

[Wis. Tom]

Thank you, fouronesix, for that posting. More affected than 556, don't you think?