profesional sorta opinions wanted

[Bullshop]

OK hear ya go everbody gets ta vote. Using the Ken Waters rateing system for the 45/70 please rate the Gibbs conversion on the #1 SMLE in 45/70.
He has a group 1 as oldies as trap doors and such
group 11 win 86 and Marlin 95 origonals
group111 Ruger #1 Win hi wall and coppies Marlin 95 modern
super group 111 siamese mauser
Navy Arms lit with the gun says factory only but we all understand that. My guess is itl handle bout what a Marlin will. I am gona find out. Just gona let the gun tell me when its had enough but would like to tally up some votes.
BIC/BS

[StarMetal]

I don't agree with him then. Group 1 would be all the old guns, like the Trapdoors, blackpowder 1886's and Marlins, Group 2 would be the new repro 1886's and Marlins, and Group 3 would be the Rugers, Siamese mausers converted to 45/70, the Gibbs #4's and some of the other new single shots. I don't know about the Navy Arms you're talking about. Should take the Marlin loads. According to the Winchester and Marlin leveraction forums the Winchester is the stronger action of the two, but Winchester screwed it up with the angle eject.

Joe

[Buckshot]

...........I'd say Marlin M95 (new) would work fine. This IS an opinion:D.

.............Buckshot

[Four Fingers of Death]

I think I'd be starting with some new brass and try the low loads first. It should be able to handle these easily. Measure the case head expansion by filing a flat on the rim on opposite sides. You can get the mike on the case better. Measure it (new) before shooting, you can shoot the case with the flats filed off, just be careful the flats are not under the extractor. You should be ablle to easily move through these loads. I would think the SMLE should pull up around Marlin 1985 levels, or maybe a bit short of this. Truth is, if you get the high end of the mild loads, you still have a powerful load.

[wills]

This sounds like a special project, pressure testing the Gibbs to the point of failure.

Lindstrom, perhaps?

[NVcurmudgeon]

Does Gibbs use the MKIII (WWI) action, or the No. 4 (WWII) action? No. 4s were used for 7.62 NATO by the British.

[Bullshop]

Does Gibbs use the MKIII (WWI) action, or the No. 4 (WWII) action? No. 4s were used for 7.62 NATO by the British.
NVcurmudgeon
The Gibbs rifles are on the WW1 actions. I recall an old Rifle article where they converted one to 45/90. They wanted to see what could have been done for poor settelers on the dark continent. As I recall they got plenty a snoose out of it. The biggest problem was to mod the mag to single stack and get dependable feeding. I was very curious to see how Gibbs did it. They are interesting and work well.
BIC/BS

[StarMetal]

Bullshop you're wrong. The are not built on WWI actions. Go to this website and read all about the Gibbs 45-70 and what loads Gibbs says it can handle.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/gibbs_summit.htm

Joe

[Bullshop]

wills
Not to destruction, just indigestion!
4fingermick
Yes we should rate them as powerfull, very powerfull, extreamly powerfull, and insainley powerfull! I am modifieing this from Buckshots recoil scale.
BIC/BS

[Bullshop]

Bullshop you're wrong. The are not built on WWI actions. Go to this website and read all about the Gibbs 45-70 and what loads Gibbs says it can handle.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/gibbs_summit.htm

Joe
Joe
Thanks for getting me straight on that. I assumed that since it has the same type receiver as my 1917 BSA it was a WW1 type. My 1917 has a spring loaded catch for bolt removal at front of receiver. You push up on the bolt head and with enough pressure applied will pop over the spring. My later WW11 guns simply have an open slot at rear of receiver to push bolt head up through, no spring. The Gibbs has the forward spring type thus my assumption. Lots of good info at that sight, thanks!
BIC/BS

[Bullshop]

Joe
OOPS!!! I was wrong again!!! The spring type is at the rear the slot type at the front. Just went and looked and the one I have says MA over Lithgow over SMLE over 111* over 1945 so it cant be a WW1 can it? Also the barrel says Navy Arms not Gibbs. All in all seems to be a nice rifle. I shall have to shoot it.
BIC/BS

[StarMetal]

Dan,

Nope, WWII. The Aussies made that MKIII for quite a few years after the war. I'm not sure why they didn't make the switch to the newer and supposely improved MK4's. Personally myself, I like the appearance of the MKIII's better.

Joe

[KCSO]

The 303 British is variously loaded from 45,000 to 47,000 PSI. The 45-70 In the trapdoor is loaded to 18,000 PSI or there abouts. The Siamese mauser that Waters used in his tests was rated for 47,000 PSI. My Shoulder is reated for 34,000 PSI MAX so that is where I stopped, Roughly 46 grains of IMR 3031 behind a 405 bullet. I would not be afraid to go to 50 grains in the Gibb's rifle, but that brass bound butt stock would have me crippled for a month. Go to it fella the gun will stand all you can.

My only problem with the Gibb's is that they were too cheap to re do the mags to match the original LEE mags that fed 5 and 10 rounds of 45-70 slick as can be.

[StarMetal]

KSCO

My original load for my Browning 1886 Winchester carbine was the 405 gr gaschecked RCBS over, if I remember correctly, 51 grs of H 4895. That gave me 1850 over the chrono with a 20 inch barrel. Pretty stiff off the bench, but not noticeable when it's knocking down a nice buck.

Joe

[Ed Barrett]

I have a Gibbs 45-70. It's a #4 frame, I removed the barrel mounted open sights and put original type peep sights on it. The grooves are not as deep as I would like them but it shoots very well. It will keep 5 shots in 2.7" at 100 yards with J bullets and almost as well with cast and patched. As far as strength goes I've used a lot of loads recommended for the siamese mauser and have seen no problems. Every rifle is different so work up to the top loads carefully.
The barrel on mine says "Navy Arms" also I think they just bought the barrels from them.

[45nut]

I have a No1Mk3 SMLE chambered in 45-70 myself,had it built about 8-9 years ago. Well,,I Received it about then,I had actually dropped of the project base with a "gunsmith" 3 years prior. Well when I did actually demand the rifle back finished or not,that's what I got. It was a single shot,I actually had to stuff the rounds in the pipe. The magazine fed repeating issue was to prove a long and tenuous journey that some years after Gibb's rifles were announced in the various gun rags actually did come about. I had the 'smith turn the barrel to spec for the original 303 as close as he could and that he did,with a judicious amount of fiddling I can mount a bayonet.
To the shooting end,I had a jeweler friend silver solder a small steel washer to the original rear sights to make a crude peep that works for me.
I have loaded this gun with a stout dose of RL 7 under a rem 400gr that I also used in my Marlin Guide Gun and the only noticeable effect was a pretty ugly bruise that took some time to disperse. That brass buttplate is not kind to the shooter,although I imagine if you needed to pop someone upside the head after a bayonet slash it would leave a mark there as well.
http://home.earthlink.net/~chevyken/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/websmle45-70.jpg

[Four Fingers of Death]

wills
Not to destruction, just indigestion!
4fingermick
Yes we should rate them as powerfull, very powerfull, extreamly powerfull, and insainley powerfull! I am modifieing this from Buckshots recoil scale.
BIC/BS

If you re-read my post closely, I suggested you start with the low level loads and keep working up until you get a load you are happy with. I also described a way to monitor the stretching of the brass as you go along. I think I said that the SMLE should pull up mid way through the 1895 Marlin loads. Healthy loads, but not dangerous. the SMLEs handle 303s which have a bit of boot, so they should be able to handle a reasonable load.

If you really want to stretch the 45/70, get a Ruger No1 or a Navy Arms Siamese conversion ( I had one of these and a friend drove me nuts until I parted with it. The fool hasn't fired it, he feels it's too good to use. he has a range of nice rifles and hunts with a really crappy 303 smle to protect his pristine rifles, two of which are 788s which are good shooters, but nothing to get excited to the point of not using them.) If you go with the short barrelled navy Arms conversion, you will need a welder's apron and mask for the hotter loads (just joking!)

I would never recommend you test to dangerous levels, as Richard Lee said, you all own cars and we don't keep the pedal to the metal all of the time or the car would give up the ghost.

[Bullshop]

4fingermick
I am not disregarding your input. I read it and appreciate it, lots of good stuff there. Please understand that I have no intention what ever of loading to the point of streaching that big rim to a noticable ammount in this or any 45/70. My feeling is the SMLE will fit about exactly between the low end trap door loads and the monsterous mauser loads. I have loaded the mauser with 62 RL#7 with the Rem two diameter 405 and in that rifle had no sign of excessive pressure. I have an old speer book that lists that load with thier 400gn which has a longer full diameter bearing length than the Rem. At the time I was sawing on the Lochsaw river north of lewiston where the Speer plant is. A friend had talked with the tech. that worked out the load data for the book and he said the data was discontinued due to intolerable recoil not max pressure. As I recall he said pressure never exceeded 35000 psi. for any load listed. I did shoot it some today enough to know it has no problems with accuracy. I loaded 49 gn H 4895 under a Lyman 550 HP for all I care to put up with in this rifle. Have not yet fired through the Ohler but can tell ya it splits stove wood real nice. Only problem I had was the second round in the mag sometimes goes over the chamber and jams on the receiver ring. #1 and 3 go slick as can be but #2 sometimes chockes. I will have to figure that out as its not a good trait for a close in bear stopping gun. Thanks for your help, much appreciated. You were one that I most wanted to hear from on this.
BIC/BS

[Four Fingers of Death]

4fingermick
I am not disregarding your input. I read it and appreciate it, lots of good stuff there. Please understand that I have no intention what ever of loading to the point of streaching that big rim to a noticable ammount in this or any 45/70. My feeling is the SMLE will fit about exactly between the low end trap door loads and the monsterous mauser loads. I have loaded the mauser with 62 RL#7 with the Rem two diameter 405 and in that rifle had no sign of excessive pressure. I have an old speer book that lists that load with thier 400gn which has a longer full diameter bearing length than the Rem. At the time I was sawing on the Lochsaw river north of lewiston where the Speer plant is. A friend had talked with the tech. that worked out the load data for the book and he said the data was discontinued due to intolerable recoil not max pressure. As I recall he said pressure never exceeded 35000 psi. for any load listed. I did shoot it some today enough to know it has no problems with accuracy. I loaded 49 gn H 4895 under a Lyman 550 HP for all I care to put up with in this rifle. Have not yet fired through the Ohler but can tell ya it splits stove wood real nice. Only problem I had was the second round in the mag sometimes goes over the chamber and jams on the receiver ring. #1 and 3 go slick as can be but #2 sometimes chockes. I will have to figure that out as its not a good trait for a close in bear stopping gun. Thanks for your help, much appreciated. You were one that I most wanted to hear from on this.
BIC/BS

The base of the case, just in front of the rim, that is. If you do not file the rim down in that spot, you cannot get the mike on the proper area.

If you are going to end up between mild and wild, it is probably not necessary, but I like to do it. If you find that the base does not stretch any more than a factory load or a light load, it instills a lot of confidence.
Mick.

I fancy buying some of your boolits and lube, but its probably not possible being in Australia.

[Bullshop]

4fingermick
If I can get the usual 20 to 30 reloads from the brass and the primer pockets are still tight seating primers that gives me all the confidence I need. I messed with half a dosen cases today and reloaded half a dosen times with the 550gn and 49gn H 4895 and all is well. Did stick one through the Ohler 35 screen and got 1671 fps. Cases slip right out and barrel is slick as a whistle, oh that speed green works good. I think BS Mom shipped some stuff out of country in some kinda flat rate gizzmo and it wasnt too bad for $$$. Have ta ask her as I am only a laborer for her company. Shure do like to hear about hunting down under so when ever you have a good day or even a not so good one on with the details. I must laugh at what many wanabe hunters here think is neccessary to kill a white tail deer compaired to what one that hunts for his means uses to regulerly take much larger animals.
BIC/BS

[drinks]

BS;
The post office has several options for shipping overseas, which includes Canada, that are somewhat faster and not much more expensive than the surface mail route [ they put that in a bottle, plug it and throw it in the ocean].

[Four Fingers of Death]

4fingermick
If I can get the usual 20 to 30 reloads from the brass and the primer pockets are still tight seating primers that gives me all the confidence I need. I messed with half a dosen cases today and reloaded half a dosen times with the 550gn and 49gn H 4895 and all is well. Did stick one through the Ohler 35 screen and got 1671 fps. Cases slip right out and barrel is slick as a whistle, oh that speed green works good. I think BS Mom shipped some stuff out of country in some kinda flat rate gizzmo and it wasnt too bad for $$$. Have ta ask her as I am only a laborer for her company. Shure do like to hear about hunting down under so when ever you have a good day or even a not so good one on with the details. I must laugh at what many wanabe hunters here think is neccessary to kill a white tail deer compaired to what one that hunts for his means uses to regulerly take much larger animals.
BIC/BS

Especially in winter when the sambar are down low and in the thick scub and blackberries around the rivers.

The only reason I could see the need to go exremely fast with this round is in case yer see's bears and need every bit of boolit grunt you can get, or if the ranges that you shoot your game start to open up. If this is the case, you are probably better served with a different rifle atogether.

Depends on your situation, I suppose. If you get to hunt regularly and its too far away and you can't get to it, you can always put it in the memory banks and come back tomorrow.

If it's a once in a lifetime hunt, you need to have all bases covered BEFORE you step into the field.

Nothing quiet like using a big slug at a moderate speed, if the sun's right, you can see the boolit on its way to the target.

I go past the Lithgow Small Arms Factory occasionally (it is 40 odd miles from where I normally live when I am not travelling around with work). This is where you rifle was made. I'll take a photo of it for you if you like.

I used to use the range out the back, but haven't been there for a few years.