44 Mag Case Failure - This Is Interesting, At Least To Me

[Foto Joe]

Back Story:
I acquired a coupled of hundred 44 Mag brass a month or so ago and have been working up loads for a '94 Marlin with a 16" barrel. The brass was of unknown origin and I haven't a clue as to how many times it was reloaded nor with what. Given that the guy I got it from was what I would call "Interesting" I suspect that these things weren't loaded for mice if you know what I mean.

Currently:
I've loaded these with several different powders always using starting loads and working up to mid level of the Lyman or Hodgdon data but no higher due to leading issues when I get too carried away. The boolit is a Lee 429-200RF sized to .431+ and weighing in at 211 grains. I do seat and crimp on the same die using a turret press as this has always served me well on 44 Special and 44 Magnum. The brass is always full length sized and two loads ago since I was seeing crimps not coming all the way out after firing I decided to anneal the brass using the drill method and annealing just the case mouth for approximately 3-4 seconds with the torch turned down to very low. During annealing the case rim never got too hot to touch and the brass was dumped into a bucket of water right off the drill.

So The Question Is:
Since I'm admittedly not a "Rifle Person" I've never experienced a case head separation and typically pitch brass when the case mouth splits. Is what I'm looking at a case head separation? I'd always made the assumption that a case head failure happened lower on the brass than this which is a little below the mid point.

I'm assuming that there are those reading this that will tell me that I damaged the brass during annealing, I can't say I can completely deny that possibility but I was definitely cautious during annealing since we're not dealing with long bottle neck brass here.

I noticed no issue with this brass as I picked it up and stuck it in the shell holder. I only noticed the failure when I was wiping the cartridges down to box them. I'm guessing that the failure happened during the seating/crimping as the brass appears to be buckled to one side but I felt nothing out of the ordinary when loading. As you can probably tell, I don't get carried away with the crimp so if this happened during that stage I'd have to assume that the brass was pretty weak and thin at that area of the case.

Of course I'm not about to stick this thing in a gun and fire it as I have no desire to try to remove the front half of the brass from somewhere inside the barrel, not to mention that it probably would put my safety glasses to the test or worse.

[44man]

I never seen that even with brass loaded 40X. I would not shoot them.

[DougGuy]

You aren't annealing the cases, just twirling them in a flame too low to do anything. Annealing won't happen until they are near cherry red.

Likely that case has been fired in a pretty generous chamber allowing it to expand more than would be optimal and it expanded more in the area just off the thicker part of the webbing than anywhere else. If you tumble and clean your brass you can look down inside and see that thin part with the naked eye.

Also, if you got a crimp that isn't coming all the way out, the case mouth is likely into the chamfered part of the chamber, I'd be doing some checking of case lengths first off.

[lwknight]

I have only seen 2 or 3 cases separate like that and never knew why.
I doubt that you could have hurt the brass by annealing. If several of the brass in the batch have this problem, toss them all. Who knows what has happened in the earlier life of the brass.
A sharp scratch can start a "worry fracture" from re-sizing and shooting several times. Maybe someones chamber has some kind of ring in it? Many possible speculations there but all are just that.

After looking at the picture and as best I can tell, that looks more like a pucker from pressing the crimp too hard.

[Ken in Iowa]

Perhaps the case was not in the shell holder all the way when you seated the bullet. It happens.

[JohnH]

That's what case separation looks like, but as you guessed, it normally happens farther down the case, just in front of the case head/case wall juncture. Notice that at the case head/case wall juncture on the case in your photo, there is a noticeable ring of color difference, just above that point is where case separation normally occurs. I've shot lots of 44 Mag and 45 Colt brass over the years and would expect a case to crack full length before a separation like that occurred. My guess, and it is just that, a guess, someone in time was reloading the cases and was not sizing them the full length of the chamber. I used to do that for a 44 Mag NEF rifle barrel which had a generous chamber as DougGuy spoke too. Even then, I would see the case mouth showing cracks before a separation occurred. However, this is reloading and many different types of failures are possible.

[Tar Heel]

I have never seen that before. I am guessing here with these ideas:

1. You have the wrong shell holder in the ram allowing the case to be off center.
2. It looks like the bullet is not crimped in the groove but slightly below it. This could possibly be placing excess pressure on the case.

It's curious it seems to be in the same place......

[smorin2]

Years ago i had that happen to me shooting a friend's reloads. I was using a TC Contender in .44mag,opened the gun and pulled the bottom half of the case out,the other half came out easily,it was a mild reload and perhaps combined with the TC's design neither the gun was damaged or i hurt.

[country gent]

Take a paper clip and straighten it out one coil the bend a small L on the end oriented with the last coil of the paper clip. reach into the case and with the edge og the L feel for a groove inside the case. Im betting you will find one in the other cases as well. this is where the pressure is working causing a thinning of the case to seperation. I have had 308 seperate 3/8" up the body. If available look into the cases with a bore scope and "see" whats there. This brass may have been loaded many times or with hot loads. How does the head stamps look on the rim? sharp and crisp or faded thin and ironed out? If the faded look this also indicates heavy loads use. THe bore scopes make seeing this alot easier than secotioning a case or feeling for it.

[lotech]

I've had the same thing happen in a .357 magnum lever action. The separation was approximately at the same point as yours. The load I used was a moderate, though not hot .357 load. I don't recall how much the brass had been fired previously, but apparently too many times as it was obviously fatigued. The springy "give" in lever actions is conducive to stretching brass, but it can still be used quite a few times.

The incipient separation may have already started but be too small to notice unless one scrapes the inside of every case to feel the stretched spot. I suspect that is what happened in your situation and the various steps taken in reloading the case were just enough to aggravate the already weakened area and bring the separation to light. Check a bunch of your other cases closely on the inside using a sharp, hooked tool to feel possible separation, or just discard the lot, particularly if you don't know the case mileage.

[bhn22]

It does appear to be compression related, but 44 mag brass simply isn't normally fragile laterally. Usually, if a case splits, it does in lengthwise. The pics remind me of old military rifle brass that was fired with corrosive primers. I suppose one potential scenario could be that the cases were tumbled repeatedly in Brasso, or some other ammonia based polish, then you had your crimping die set a little too deep, and the cases buckled and split. Normally, this only happens right at the base of the bullet. Whatever happened, I recommend tossing out the whole batch of brass and obtaining replacements.

[osteodoc08]

What is the HS of the brass and how many loadings? Looks like fatigue to me. I've had a few over the years and the process of loading the brass brought it to light. Examine other brass carefully and if suspect, trash it. A few dollars saved is not worth bodily injury.

[303Guy]

My hornet does that. Well, cases fired in another gun then fired in mine. The damage was from the other gun. Full length sizing and head spacing on the rim with just a little clearance. It's the thin case wall that determines where it will separate.

[james nicholson]

Pull the boolit so you can see into the case. I would be interested in seeing that picture.

[oldfart1956]

Somewhere in the gun room I have a baggie with several loaded/fired .44 magnum rounds that have exactly the same thing. This was a second time reload used in a Browning BL92. Had to take it to the 'smith to get the forward piece of the case out of the rifle and he had a helluva time getting it out. I think he used cerrosafe to do it...don't recall. Remington brass if memory serves. I do know it was full length re-sized and a max load out of Speers manual. Audie...the Oldfart..

[MarkP]

Drill a hole in a wood block, insert the case into the hole and cut the case with a saw just off the CL by a blade thickness. Once sectioned deburr with 400 grit and look at the ID of the case near the abnormality.

[bhn22]

Now that I've had some sleep :razz:, has this brass already been shot through yours, or any other rifle that you know of? Torn brass is also a headspace issue indicator. I dismissed this initially because it's a straight case, but if your locking blocks in the rifle are loose, the case will still obturate and grip the chamber walls, but will be weakened if the bolt moves during the process. So it could still be a headspace issue. It probably showed up during reloading because of the crimping die. Just a guess.

[Foto Joe]

if you got a crimp that isn't coming all the way out, the case mouth is likely into the chamfered part of the chamber, I'd be doing some checking of case lengths first off.

All the brass was trimmed to 1.275" just before the last reload and is still in spec.


After looking at the picture and as best I can tell, that looks more like a pucker from pressing the crimp too hard.

I agree, I could probably roll back on the crimp a touch. But on the other hand if the stiff crimp on the brass brings this to light then maybe it's not such a bad thing. Although it looks like a buckled case it's actually broken. The weak area failed upon crimping undoubtedly, better there than in the barrel.


1. You have the wrong shell holder in the ram allowing the case to be off center.
2. It looks like the bullet is not crimped in the groove but slightly below it. This could possibly be placing excess pressure on the case.

Correct shell holder, all tool heads/turrets are stored with their respective shell holders to prevent mix ups. Yes the boolit is crimped just below the crimp groove. Crimping on the groove on these Lee boolits (both 429 & 452 200RF's) tends to cause the boolit to get sucked down by the crimp groove yielding unacceptable variances in COL. Also, these boolits are running approximately 20 BHN so here again yes, the pressure from crimping no doubt lead to the failure being visible.


How does the head stamps look on the rim? sharp and crisp or faded thin and ironed out?

Something that I should have looked at earlier and didn't. Let's just say they look pretty hammered.


has this brass already been shot through yours, or any other rifle that you know of?My rifle ('94 Marlin), the person I got it from probably shot it out of a revolver.

Some interesting points have been brought up here. In the final analysis I'd say that I should probably chuck the whole lot and buy new brass. Unfortunately Cabela's (where I've got the points) can't even spell 44 Mag brass so I'll have to wind up spending real money instead of points.

One of you brought up the possibility of a worn rifle part like the bolt block being the culprit. In reality this rifle was manufactured in the mid '90's but has had very little put through it in the last twenty years. I don't think it had ever been fired when I acquired it ten plus years ago and during my ownership it has spit out maybe at most 1,000 44 Specials and no Magnums until the last couple of months so worn parts aren't high on my list of possibilities but thanks for all the ideas and thoughts.

[lar45]

About 10 years ago I had some new Winchester 454 ammo that did that. It had several fail like yours and also had some split length wise. This was fired in a Taurus Raging Bull. I contacted Winchester about it, they wanted the brass and ammo returned to look at. I sent most of the brass and ammo back and they sent me a couple of coupons for free Winchester ammo.

[longbow]

I'll side with DougGuy on many reloads and not enough annealing leading to fatigue.

My Lee carbide die sizes small, very small in my opinion and when I seat a boolit the brass looks like a snake that ate a rabbit so I do not full length size any more. That coupled with a seemingly generous Marlin chamber must really work the brass. If yours is the same as mine then your brass must be getting work a lot too. If not properly annealed it will get quite brittle.

So there is my suspicion work hardened brass cracking at a weak point.

Longbow

[243winxb]

My Marlin 44 mag had produced a case separation on firing years ago. Excessive headspace and brass stretching are the cause. Google " 44 magnum case separation "

[EDK]

SWAG Remove the rifle bolt and look at the chamber. IF you shot a lot of 44 Special and didn't clean the chamber afterwards, there might be a carbon ring causing the problem. Guilty of doing this for years!

I'm also thinking the used brass you got was from someone who loads to the higher end. "Once Fired" brass can be suspect, especially with the current shortages. Marginal stuff gets sold on the internet.

I had one of the younger employees at my local gun shop ask for some 44 mag brass last fall...couldn't get new or used brass and didn't want to make his own from factory loads. I'd commented on not doing any loading during my divorce proceedings and had several gallon ice cream buckets of used 44 brass plus the loaded ammo. I was having a case of "sticker shock" for 45 Long Colt ammo or brass for a Schofield clone I'd acquired. (200 nickle STARLINE for $50 plus $110 for the dies and conversion kit for the Dillon 550B versus $50 for a box of Cowboy ammo.)

[Blackwater]

You know, this one has really stymied me, and I don't like being stymied. Everything has an explanation, whether we can find it quickly or not. After thinking about it, the only suggestion I can come up with as a possibility is if you lubed the cases, and without removing the lube, put them in the case spinner, trimmed them, and then wiped the lube off down to the point where they're cracking. If so, that COULD conceivably let the rear part, the part with lube still on them, be forced back to the breech face while the forward (cleaned) part of the case was held forward by pressure against the walls of the chamber, thus causing a stress point at the disparity, and resulting in a crack. I don't have a whole lot of confidence in this possibility, however, so if you find out what it is, PLEASE let us know.

[Tar Heel]

I think we are all 132524 'd.

[Foto Joe]

After doing as 243winxb suggested and typing "44 magnum case separation" into the Google Machine I've spent the better part of the last hour reading specifically about 44 Mag separation issues as well as learning a lot about some other semi-related items (sometimes I distract easily).

What I have learned is that this type of separation although relatively rare does indeed happen with 44 Magnum cases. After examining the case head of the one that failed it's obvious that it's been hammered pretty good. I'm surmising that this brass did actually fail upon firing but didn't separate sufficiently for me to actually notice it until I put pressure on the failure during crimping. As a side note on the somewhat excessive crimp that some have mentioned, after trimming all my brass I reset the crimp die and I probably over did it a bit although if I hadn't I might not have noticed this failure which might have lead to a bit of a problem on the next firing, I will however back off from the crimp a little bit.

Currently I'm researching new brass and have found it on Amazon at a price of around 64¢ each, more than I'd really like to pay but cheaper than getting used to a new glass eye should one of the old ones catastrophically fail and vent out through the bolt a few inches from my eye. I think what I'll do is carefully inspect all of the brass for ANY indication that it's been abused or over used and chuck any that even remotely looks suspect. I'll also purchase new brass and keep those separate from the old stuff.

Yesterday I fired the remaining 99 cartridges which I inspected carefully prior to dropping them into the chamber. These loads were experimental using beginning loads of I4227 for the first 20 rounds then my standard 10.2gr of Unique for the remaining ones. Velocities were consistent with the published data for those loads which ranged from 1,369 to 1,488 fps, keep in mind these seem high but the rifle does provide for some pretty increased velocities over published handgun speeds.

[SSGOldfart]

have a close look at your dies I had a sizing die that did almost the same thing I notice it before I completed the loading, I kinda thought it's from a camber out of spec. before the once fired brass got to me,but changing to a different die set cured my problem,so maybe it was the die out of spec. I did change from carbide dies back to steel, yea I have to lube the cases but they don't break and case lube is a lot cheaper then 44mag cases

[EDK]

FOTO JOE You REALLY need to go to gunbroker and look at the price of 44 magnum brass, new or used...I just did. There are considerably better prices than $64/100, even with shipping! Look at the item and then check out the sellers' feedback. Don't mess with any lots of less than 100; 500+ is an enormous price break.

[dakotashooter2]

Is it possible a previous user used 44 special dies to do his sizing? Most dies are 44 mag/44 special but I suspect at one time dies specifically for 44 special were available..........They would possibly "short" size the cases. leaving the ring.

[HollowPoint]

I haven't read every word of every reply here so I may just be repeating what 's already been stated but, it's possible that whoever owned this brass before you may have also tried to anneal them using the, "Partially immersed in water" method. The position of the crack being the depth of the water that this brass was immersed in. Who really knows? We're all just guessing at this point.

I know I'm coming off sounding like a "Know-It-All" who's ignorantly stating the obvious but, let common sense dictate any future use of this same brass.

HollowPoint

[Foto Joe]

I'm pretty sure that the previous owner never annealed the brass.

Yesterday I sat down with a bent paperclip, a flashlight and a bright halogen overhead to inspect the unloaded/tumbled brass that I had left in my peanut jar (100+ pieces). I found five pieces that have a lateral mark at the same elevation as the failed one. The headstamps are mixed and range from Browning to Remington and FC. You'll have to zoom in on the image to see the mark but it doesn't go all the way around on any of the pieces. I'm relatively sure that the failed one probably had this mark on it prior to failure as well seeing as how it's in the same position. I also flipped through a few of the dirty ones that I fired on Sunday and found numerous that have that mark on them. The ones that had the mark on them were loaded with 10.2gr of Unique. I also had 40 loaded with starting loads of IMR4227 and the ones I looked at did not have the mark. The IMR4227 loads ranged from 1,369 fps to 1,485 fps which is a little higher velocity than the Unique loads but I was getting a lot of unburned powder on the IMR4227 loads.

I cleaned and inspected the gun hoping against hope that I would not find any anomalies in the chamber which I did not, also the leading issue that I've been plagued by during load development is no longer an issue (off topic, sorry). My die set is a Lee 44SPC/Mag carbide set and full length sizes to down below where this mark is so I'm not blaming the die set. I am however increasingly suspect of the age and condition of this brass. I personally have loaded it 5+ times which is the main reason that I annealed it in the first place.

I ordered 200 pieces from MidwayUSA yesterday afternoon for 57¢ delivered. My reasoning was that I had $60 in my PayPal account that had been sitting there for over a year. GunBroker isn't PayPal friendly (for good reason) so as far as I was concerned I got 'em for free. When the new brass comes in I'll prep it and load using the 10.2gr of Unique as that has turned into my pet load for this gun for 100 yard targets. Hopefully the new StarLine brass will hold up for a dozen or so reloads before I start seeing any issues. I guess this is just something that you have to deal with loading magnum rounds.

The education continues...

[CLP]

That's not a case head separation. The case is buckled because he was crimping before the bullet was seated fully. When he lowered the ram the case separated where it had previously buckled. The discoloration at the base is where the resizing die stopped- it's normal. The "paperclip test" is great for 223, you don't need to do it for 44Mag- just look inside the case. Adjust your seating die or crimp in a separate step.