Forgotten 33s and 34s

[405]

Have had a chance to shoot cast in a couple of original Winchester lever guns the last few days. They have shot J bullets so well I've just now gotten the circular TUIT with them for testing some cast loads.

Shot the 86 Winchester Takedown Model 33 WCF today. Rarely can I hit the accurate load on the first outing but Oh Boy! All testing at 50 yds from rest.

5 test rounds- 200gr .340" RNFP GC over mild-medium load of H4227...... .66"
Thinking it can't get any better...

5 test rounds- 200gr .340" RNFP GC over medium load of Surp 4895....... .48"
Good grief- why has this gun been sitting in the safe!!!

Shot the 71 Winchester 348 WCF last week. Another fluke to hit the accurate load right out of the blocks!

10 test rounds- 230gr .350" RNFP GC over medium load of H4227............ .74"
A real powerhouse lever gun with the full load J bullets- but what a surprise with the cast!!

The case volume and body taper of both of these rounds has always made me a little leery of trying to work up low charge weight-low pressure cast loads. But no worries.... they both appear to be excellent cast bullet shooters.

Pic of the .48" target, 5 rounds, 50 yds with the 86 Win 33WCF

Update 3-4-08.... since these bullets (33s and 348s) were in unmarked boxes that I've had for a few years... wasn't 100% sure of the origin until now..... but, just confirmed the caster whose talents and quality of products are well known here is none other than Bullet Man Dan aka Bullshop. A major portion of the credit for these targets should go to him.:)

[6pt-sika]

Congrats on your success :drinks:

I to have a 33 WCF although mine is an orginal Marlin 1895 of about 1912 vintage .

I was fortunate enough to get my hands on a dual cavity Lyman 338320 mould a short time after I got the rifle .

I must admit I got this rifle about 2 years ago . I also was fortunate to get 4 boxes of the Hornady 33 caliber 200 grain FN bullets that are no longer manufactured . But the whole time I have had this old rifle , all I've shot has been the cast bullets from that Lyman mould . [smilie=1:

[405]

Yes,
I know what you mean about setting aside the 200 gr FP J bullets. They are no more! I grabbed all I could find a few years ago. They really shoot well in the 86 but I'd rather not use them up just yet.... plus I know that cast bullets are easier on the old classics.

What surprised me about this 86 is that I have another 86 in 33 but in solid frame. The solid frame shoots all J bullet loads better. But in this first try with the takedown frame shooting cast I don't think the solid frame 33 or maybe any of the other levers in different calibers will touch it. But you know how that story goes. Shoot one good group then spend years trying to duplicate it :mrgreen:

[6pt-sika]

405 , I'm not trying to tell you what to do , but if I had a nice old Model 71 in 348 I would stockpile a thousand or so Hornady bullets .
Because you never know when they may decide to cease production on them as well [smilie=1:

[405]

Done! The bullet shelf is sagging with a fairly hefty load of more than a few boxes of the 348 J bullet FPs.... the writing is on the wall for a lot of such stuff. Probably be a few of the small j bullet makers around for quite a while but as Hornady and others drop certain items prices may rise very sharply for even the simplest of cup core bullets :(

[johnly]

405

It's not too late for get in on the 348 group buy mold. It's changed from a 6 cavity Lee to a 4 cavity brass mold, but still a 225 gr. GC.

Don't have a 33 Winchester, but just picked up a 35 WCF die set for a future project.

John

[bigbear]

I load for 348 Win and wouldappreciate details onloads you have had luck with. I've been looking for an 86, but they are too expensive...better to spendthe money on bullets for my 71s? Great groups? How do you bench rest your levers?

[bigbear]

Are molds for 33WCF still available anywhere?

[6pt-sika]

Are molds for 33WCF still available anywhere?

I live in Virginia and my slightly used Lyman 338320 mould came from a dealer in California that a member here was kind enough to tell me about seeing at a gun show in cali ! He also gave me the guys name and or phone number and I contacted him .

As far as a decent 338 GC mould , your best bet is a NEI or Mountain Moulds !

RCBS still makes a FP 338 mould in their uncataloged section , however they used to be GC and now they are plain base . I would truly love to have a RCBS 33-200GC mould , but as of yet I have been unable to acquire one !

Also worthy of note is the fact that 338 gas checks are no longer made by Hornady . So unless you find old boxes of them (which I have) you must get Gator Checks .

I wouldn't mind seeing a group buy for a 6 cavity copy of the old Lyman 338320 , but I doubt seriousely if there is enough intrest for such a mould !
But if there is count me in by all means :drinks:

[6pt-sika]

How do you bench rest your levers?

I can't speak for others , but for my purposes I shoot them from the bags the same as I would with any bolt action bench rifle !

I have an adjustable Wichita cast front rest with a leather sand bag and a rear sand filled leather bag that I have been using now for over 20 years .

:castmine:

[6pt-sika]

Done! The bullet shelf is sagging with a fairly hefty load of more than a few boxes of the 348 J bullet FPs.

As I said earlier I do not and have not owned a 348 WCF .

But I have lusted for one for a couple of years now . I think I just may have to salt away 4 or 5 boxes of the Hornady bullets for myself just in case [smilie=1:

If I never get one I can always sell them to someone else :drinks:

[bigbear]

I can't speak for others , but for my purposes I shoot them from the bags the same as I would with any bolt action bench rifle !

I have an adjustable Wichita cast front rest with a lever sand bag and a rear sand filled leather bag that I have been using now for over 20 years .

:castmine:
I have an original Win 71 that I find groups erraticaly. One group at 100yds with Hornady bullets shoots at 1.25" with 2 shots touching (5 shots) and the next range trip, same load I get 5" patterns? I have a Browning 71 shoots same load consistently under 2". I try off the bag and holding foreend with hand resting on bag. the difficulty with loading the 33 is dissuading me from geting one, think I'll order some more 348 gas checks today.[smilie=1:

[405]

The biggest problem with these is finding consistent, comparable or complete load data. I've had to interpolate some within the cast bullets ranges. Even the current Lyman manual lists two cast bullets and load data for the 348 but they are not very normal or even the best designs??? The older Ideal manuals have some data for both the 33 and 348. Cartridges of the World has some data for the J bullet loads. The current Hornady manual has some data for both of these cartridges for the Hornady J bullets.

A few observations about what may have to do with the pretty good groups I've gotten with both the Win 86 and the 71.

1) The bores in both are excellent- very difficult to find old 86s with top condition bores, not so difficult with the 71s. My theory is that about the time a lot of 71s were purchased the general shift to high powered bolt guns and scopes came along. So the 71s along with their pretty stiff recoil got left in the closet. The 86s were hard used tools and suffered more from that fate.

2) Both are fitted with aperture sights- the 71 has the bolt peep and the 86 has a receiver peep.

3) The bullets are exceptional (cast by Bullshop)- not cast by me!

4) The bullets are gas checked and are both sized to about .002" over groove diameter- this is always tricky because in some rifles the chamber neck diameter may not allow going to .002" over groove.

5) Just lucky in picking the powders and charges that seem to work well with the cartridges/bullets- I think both bullets are hard #2 maybe 15+ BHN.

[6pt-sika]

The bullets are not cast by me!




Well that for me is half the fun :roll:

[405]

Yep it is fun to roll your own! I guess the same would hold for those few who drill and rifle their own barrels :roll: Pretty much limited myself to casting a couple of varieties plus a couple of variations of swaged bullets for paper patching. That PP business has consumed most of the extra mad money and more importantly time!

I find in so many of these guns and applications there aren't any catalog molds that will do what I think needs doing. Many of them skip right past the exact diameter range I need for a particular gun/bore or the design is all wrong. It's not very hard to heat up a pot of lead alloy, heat up a mold block, pour a few bullets and scatter some lead downrange. The hard part is getting that dense cylinder to the right spot downrange, predictably. That leaves limited choices for being able to easily cast and shoot well. Likely many of the guns/cartridges I shoot would require a custom mold plus custom sizer and top punch plus an odd sized gas check..... I currently load for and shoot 28 different cartridges with variations of bullet types within that list totaling something over 40..... so it could and likely would consume too many of my calories to cast the right bullet for each :mrgreen: The worse choice would be to let them sit as safe queens :(