new caster needs help

[hound-1]

Hello, I'm new to casting, and I'm having trouble getting my marlin 30/30 to shoot. I have both the noe 311-165 and the lyman 311041.I've slugged my bore 2x and have gotten 308.5 . I'm using lyman #2 from rotometals. I've sized and gas checked at .311 .I sort them to less then + or - 1 grain to rule that out. I get no leading from what I can tell, when I clean it I just get tons of " black "stuff. I have tried 3 different powders, IMR 3031 , IMR 4198 , and IMR 4227,and more loads then you can shake a stick at. Most groups average about 4-5 inches at 50 yards, forget it at 100. I had one group that had a lot of promise 27gr.IMR 3031 with the 311-165, 3/4" at 50, but it will print the first 1or 2 shots from a cold barrel about 8+ inches high, the rest where I'm aiming. It does this every time.no other loads do this and I've gone up/down 1/2 grain at a time but the accuracy isn't there. The gun is scope sighted and micro groove. I really want to use cast for my deer hunting, but not at 50 yards or less:bigsmyl2:
any Ideas on what I'm doing wrong or what I can do different.

[Yodogsandman]

Sounds like you've done a fine job and you must be frustrated by your results. I would try that good load without cleaning the barrel each trip. Also, try a different lube, like 50/50 alox/beeswax available from Lee, Lyman or others. There's a lot of other great commercial lubes and homemade lubes to try, too.

[altheating]

Check the muzzle for a perfect lube star. We have had crown issues with three of the last four rifles we have tried cast in. If your not getting any leading then continue without cleaning. I have two that require 10 shots before I even try to shoot a group. I would start with a completely fouled bore, check muzzle for good lube star, (make sure you have one) if not look at crown for imperfections and then swap out the scope to see if it's the issue. That's how I would approach the problem. Not sure where you are from but it could be a lube issue caused by severe cold weather. Keep us posted.

[georgerkahn]

I sincerely sympathize/empathize with your frustration. Both my #1 deer rifles are Marlin 336s -- in .30wcf and .35rem calibers. My powder of choice is IMR3031. I've been lucky, I guess, using Lyman Orange Magic lub in past loadings, and can't honestly report on new boolit performance using the Star sizer and Star lub. I'm surely not the brightest lamp in the fixture, but if it were me, you did NOT indicate how the rifle shoots with "factory" jacketed bullets. Hey, it might be the rifle itself? Assuming you did in fact successfully fire a load which did perform to your expectations, then perhaps variables might be played with. Has any/every trace of copper been removed from the barrel?, as but one. I am totally ignorant re the role of different lub's -- to my puny brain, if they do not lead the barrel, they're great. But, hound 1 may in fact have something re trying different lub's. Good luck!!!
georgerkahn

[hound-1]

Thanks all, as a matter of fact I don't recall seeing a "lube star " at the muzzle. I live in Pa,and yes its cold. She shoots jacked great. I'm going to switch lube and see what happens, I'll post back tomorrow. Thanks again...Ed

[GP100man]

I to have settled on building handloads with 3031 powder for the 30-30 !

I went with 310 on the size 311 won`t chamber. I clean with EDs Red.
Lube with Carnauba Red ,have a good lube star on the muzzle, I have no cold bore problems to speak of , but I`m using the iron sites , at fifty 1 1/2" is as good as my eyes can see(good for me) & can consistently hit a paper plate at 100.

I feel your lube is getting used & or burned up with the absents of a lube star.

Just for grins try 8gr. of reddot under that 311041 every 30-30 I`ve tried this in weather it was a 94 or a 336 would shoot this load .

[hound-1]

Update, I changed lube, The lube I was using was soft like grease, the new is hard . I then loaded up 15, 311-165 noe with 27 gr IMR 3031. I fired a couple fouling shots, then I fired two 3 shot groups, letting the barrel cool between .At 50 yrds, The first was the classic clover leaf, the second I had 2 touching and I pulled one about a inch. No high first shots . I thank you guys a lot. Now, I did nothing different but switch lube, please help me understand how and why this worked, and how do I determine what lube to use with what. My 30/06 and 35 rem are next. Thanks again

[altheating]

The soft Grease type lube simply was not up to the task. Try the new lube in the 06 and 35 remmy, most likely it will work in all three. What brand was the lube that did not work? Glad you got it shooting. Sometimes it is the simplest things that make a whole lot of difference.
Now that brings up another question, how many guys are using different lubes for specific calibers? I only use one lube for everything from 22 cal to 45/70's.

[MT Chambers]

I had a REMLIN 30/30 microgroove that wouldn't shoot cast or j-word bullets, sold it and bought a new one, a "limited edition" model and it shoots great with cast, a world of diff. from my first REMLIN. Unfortunately since the move/sale these rifles esp. the microgroove ones is very "hit and miss".

[JohnH]

There are two primary thoughts on how lube works. One line of thought says that under pressure the lube is squeezed against the barrel and creates a "film/bubble" the boolit rides in. The other line of thought is that as pressure initially builds behind the bootlit, there is some gas blow by. That blow by picks up some amount of lube and coats the barrel prior to the boolits passage. There has been some discussion about a third mechanism, which is a combination of the two, some lube is blown forward of the boolit pre-coating the barrel, some lube becomes a film which the boolit rides in. We know that if there is not a lube star present at the muzzle, there is not enough lube. We know that some lubes work good at handgun velocities and pressures yet fail at rifle velocities and pressure. Lots of room for experimentation here. I'd highly recommend that you make some Felix Lube. Many have found it to be an excellent lube which works well across the spectrum of velocities and pressures we run cast boolits at. Take a read through the Lube forum on the board. Good Shootin' :)

Edit: PS, With cast, so long as you are not getting leading, there is no reason to go scrubbing the bore everytime you shoot. The lube will coat the bore and that will protect it, and cleaning it removes the "seasoning".

[boho]

+1 on Felix lube!

[spfd1903]

I pan lube with Felix lube for a lot of calibers, great stuff. Also use Lee LLA and 45-45-10. Please educate me on the term "lube star". Thanks

[Foto Joe]

I've spent the last ten months attempting to slay this exact dragon with a Henry 30-30 and most recently developing loads for a buddies 336 using a Lyman 311041. During my trials and tribulations I have definitely found that the lube makes a huge difference as I started out using Lyman Super Moly and getting shotgun groups. Since then I've switched to Lyman Alox (NRA 50/50) with good results.

The other thing that I've come to discover is that lever guns are NOT scope friendly (my personal opinion). Whether it's a Henry with a true rifle stock or a 336 with a pistol grip rifle stock on it the comb just isn't high enough nor the scope rings low enough to get my noggin in the same position each and every time on the wood. This little epiphany finally occurred to me after I was able to outshoot the Henry and the 336 (both scoped) with my '94 Marlin 44 Mag and iron sights at both 50 and 100 yards.

Although I haven't used IMR3031 I have used a lot of IMR4227 & IMR4198 and found that both are position sensitive. Chronograph results without Dacron filler on the latter two powders produced wicked velocity excursions. By using Dacron on those two powders and loading only from the breach instead of the magazine the extreme spreads/standard deviation calmed down to acceptable levels, at least for me.

[JohnH]

I pan lube with Felix lube for a lot of calibers, great stuff. Also use Lee LLA and 45-45-10. Please educate me on the term "lube star". Thanks

Look at the muzzle of your gun (unloaded of course ;) ) and where there will be a "star" of the lube present. If in doubt of what you are seeing, before shooting again, wipe the muzzle clean, and inspect over the course of your shooting time, and you will see it form.

[hound-1]

Thank you all...Ed