JES rebore backyard report

[hpdrifter]

Just got my Win 94 AE back from JES. 30-30 to 38-55.

Loaded up a few rounds of 30.0 grains Re7 with a Lee 250 cast sized to .377.

The manual I got that from said ~1664 fps. My CD2 reported 2 3 shot strings at an average of 1670 fps. Pretty close...average.

Had a few hi's and lo's. A high of 1705 and a low of 1639.

Kinda wonder what knowledgeable folks think what the upper limit is for a Win 94AE with a 250 lead slug?

All the information I gather says a Win 94 is ok up to 38000??? The 38-55 info, even the higher end stop at 30000 or so.

edited a hasty first opinion

Now, don't get me wrong, I don't mean to hot rod it. Those 1670 fps rounds have a pretty good report.....bump. Not bad, but you know it's there.



It's not bad, just a little line around the case where the shoulder of a 30-30 case falls. Any thoughts on that. I think I can live with that, unless the resizing and firing works that case too much.

[TNsailorman]

Have you discussed this issue with JES? I think that would have been my first option as soon as I noticed what was happening. Give him a chance to make it right, and if he doesn't, report back to us.

[Artful]

Have you slugged it yet? looks are one thing measurements are another.

[hpdrifter]

14 days of shipping $30 worth of insurance, not counting the $250 for the service; it should be "right" the first time. Looking at another 14 days and $40+ worth of insurance/shipping.

I'll let the deflation wither away and call him.

[rking22]

How does it group? If it shoots well who cares how deep the groovs are? Can you feel/ measure the ring where the 3030 shoulder was? I have no hourse in this race, but was considering the same for a rifle I have, keep us updated please.

[BAGTIC]

Should be good to at least 30-30 pressures, 42,000 psi. The lower 38-55 pressures are because when the 38-55 was introduced it was a blackpowder round. Also brass was thinner back then. Once a caliber is introduced pressures can not be raised later as the cartridge has to be safe in any gun ever chambered for that cartridge. Seeing as how 30-30 AI is rated to 46,000 and modern M94 in 7-30 Waters were rated for 50,000 psi you should have some leeway.

[hpdrifter]

don't know how it groups, have to find that out on another day. I hurriedly put up the chronograph to know what the reloads were gonna do. Didn't have time to set up a good target. It was leading something terrible, but that'll need to be worked out, although I would a thunk with WW over .002 over bore size at 1670 might have been alright, evidently not. I'll back off the pressure/velocity and see what happens.

Yes you can feel the ring where the shoulder was/is.

Thanks BAGTIC, knew most of the history, just wasn't sure about case pressures versus 94 AE pressures, but I didn't realize the 7-30 94s were rated at 50000. Likely will keep it in low 30s for my "hot" loads.

[TXGunNut]

Have you discussed this issue with JES? I think that would have been my first option as soon as I noticed what was happening. Give him a chance to make it right, and if he doesn't, report back to us.

.
Good advice. See how it shoots, discuss the results and your concerns with JES.

[Nobade]

My Marlin rebore has a slight line in the chamber also. It's not ruined, it is simply what you have to deal with when rechambering one cartridge to another. Theoretically there shouldn't be a line, but Winchester's chamber was obviously slightly larger than "theoretically" what it is supposed to be. No big deal, doesn't hurt anything. The rifling, on the other hand, should be correct. Best to measure everything and see what you have there. Mine looks plenty deep, and does measure correctly. It was a touch rough at first, but after a few hundred paper patched bullets through it, it's shining like a mirror.

-Nobade

[rr2241tx]

1670 fps is getting right up there for a plain base boolit. Old time factory loads ran 1500 to 1700 fps, on the side of the box, no telling what they actually achieved. Current production UltraMax run about 1130 fps according to my chrono. Jacketed Winchester run a little faster at 1600 and change. At .377 your boolit is probably less than groove diameter. Winchester barrels mostly ran .379 or slightly more. Slug your bore and see what you need in the way of boolit diameter and your leading will probably go away.

The SAAMI chamber drawings:
38-55: http://www.saami.org/pubresources/cc_drawings/Rifle/38-55%20Winchester.pdf
30-30: http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Rifle/30-30%20Winchester.pdf

As long as your brass extracts easily the line is likely of no consequence. Mostly you'll only want to size the top half inch or so of your fired brass anyway and the roll crimp will break the edge of the case mouth eventually anyway.

[Dan Cash]

Franklin Mann, author of "The Bullet's Flight" experimented with some extremely shallow rifling and found that it worked quite well so as long as the gun shoots, I would not worry about the depth unless you are shooting black. That might pose a problem.

I shoot a first year production Marlin 1893 in .38-55. It requires .382 or so bullets for which I have a mould. If you wish, I would send you 20 or so to try in your gun. They are lubed and ready to go.

[hpdrifter]

1670 fps is getting right up there for a plain base boolit. Old time factory loads ran 1500 to 1700 fps, on the side of the box, no telling what they actually achieved. Current production UltraMax run about 1130 fps according to my chrono. Jacketed Winchester run a little faster at 1600 and change. At .377 your boolit is probably less than groove diameter. Winchester barrels mostly ran .379 or slightly more. Slug your bore and see what you need in the way of boolit diameter and your leading will probably go away.

The SAAMI chamber drawings:
38-55: http://www.saami.org/pubresources/cc_drawings/Rifle/38-55%20Winchester.pdf
30-30: http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Rifle/30-30%20Winchester.pdf

As long as your brass extracts easily the line is likely of no consequence. Mostly you'll only want to size the top half inch or so of your fired brass anyway and the roll crimp will break the edge of the case mouth eventually anyway.

this is a JES rebore, not a Winchester production run 38-55. He says its 375; 376 cast or 377 his words. I know I need to slug it to know for sure, but my resized .377 cast, that I measured, will not go into the barrel; it has to be hammered in.

Yeah, I'm gonna try to slow this WW+2%Sn down a little and see if the leading stops; maybe 1450 or so.

Kinda what I was thinking on the brass sizing, was entertaining the thought of opening up my sizing die to just barely resize.

[hpdrifter]

Franklin Mann, author of "The Bullet's Flight" experimented with some extremely shallow rifling and found that it worked quite well so as long as the gun shoots, I would not worry about the depth unless you are shooting black. That might pose a problem.

I shoot a first year production Marlin 1893 in .38-55. It requires .382 or so bullets for which I have a mould. If you wish, I would send you 20 or so to try in your gun. They are lubed and ready to go.

thanks Dan, but I think that boolit is too oversize for this bore job. JES states 376 or 377 cast. They are a tight fit.

All, well, maybe I was hasty. It seems a shooter. I put up a target at 50 yards and my first shot anchored my thoughts; it thought it was shooting low left by the tests on chronograph. It was. Shot about 7 inches low(to my sights;williams foolproof) and 5 inches left.

Adjusted the sight upwards and towards the right and the gun followed the sights; 3-4 inches low and still muchos left.

Did some drastic changes and hit 1 inch right and 1/2" low. Next two shots touching that one.
The next shot I did a sight alignment change(held a little higher) and it went higher about 1-2"; my bad.
The last shot I just out and out bungled; it don't count.

The rifling still underwhelms me, but if it shoots, what can you say?

I'm gonna have to reload some slower/less pressure rounds for the boolets I've got or cast some a bit harder and try again.

[451whitworth]

Ken Waters listed max load was 32.0gr RL-7 with 250gr. slug. Out of my 24" barrel Win 94 that load is 1925-1950fps

[hpdrifter]

Maybe, but my Lyman 48th Edition said 30.0 grains for a 375289/249 grain as starting load. with a listed 1664 fps and 16200 pressure.
it shows 35.0 as max. My chronograph told me 1670.

It does seem a might stout for a starting load, especially 38-55 and I plan on a different tack on next go round. I'm gonna have to research some 1300 fps or so loads and try them.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Rifling grooves are typically .003-.005 deep with .004 being nominal. This is exactly what my Marlin 1894CB .44Mag is and also my 1895 CB 45-70.

Neither one looks that deep and yet they both still spin the boolits just fine. .004 is .001 thicker than a piece of notebook paper or a Black Hair.

At 1650fps you might try a Gas Checked boolit as you are above what is normally considered the top end for plain based boolits or <1500fps.

Also if you were able to get several boolits touching with your cursory shooting test I think you may be getting really good results from that barrel.

What people think "Looks Bad" really doesn't mean anything . Shooting is the final answer.

As far as your chamber ring is concerned the only way he could have gotten past that is to set the barrel back one thread and rechamber it which would have made all of the barrel dovetails and magazine hangers not in the right places anymore. Obviously the .38-55 case is not as wide as the .30-30 case in that exact place.

I would shoot the gun a bunch and see if it shoots before I made any decisions on what to do with it. If it groups well with Gas Checked boolits at the speeds you want to run them I'd call it good. If you lowered the speeds to about 1300-1400 fps with PB boolits, which is were the cartridge was loaded to begin with, you probably would solve the leading problem as well.

This is the first complaint I have heard about this guy, and I am wrapping up a barreled action to send to him as I write this. I'm pretty confident that mine will come back right.

Randy

[Char-Gar]

With plain base bullets, drop the velocity to 1.2 or 1.3K fps and shoot some groups.

If you want to go above 1.4 or 1.5 K fps a gas check bullet is what you need.

JES has a very good reputation and more than likely he did your rifle correctly. It really isn't fair to call the work shabby unless you range test it thoroughly for accuracy and function with appropriate loads.

[hpdrifter]

With plain base bullets, drop the velocity to 1.2 or 1.3K fps and shoot some groups.

If you want to go above 1.4 or 1.5 K fps a gas check bullet is what you need.

JES has a very good reputation and more than likely he did your rifle correctly. It really isn't fair to call the work shabby unless you range test it thoroughly for accuracy and function with appropriate loads.
plan on your course of action.

I edited the bad press out of my first post; agree with your assessment, was a hasty post.

[W.R.Buchanan]

That's what the editing function is for. I can't tell you the number of posts I have deleted after reading them, and realizing that I probably should have chosen different words.

My Barreled Enfield action went to Jes on Friday.

Randy

[northmn]

Go back to other threads on the 38-55 and see that Starline brass will premit chambering of a larger diameter bullet than Wichester. I find that my ballard rifled barrels do not need to be oversized by more than the .001. I have even had good accuracy with bullets at bore diameter although there is a theory that slightly oversized prevents leading. I tend to like the OS bullets. Another method of preventing leading with hotter loads is to use Lees liquid Alox. Worked well for 30-30 loads at about 2000 fps. Unfortunately my 38-55 hates the stuff and worksbest with the standard lubing. As other calibers work well with the stuff it comes under one of those mysteries of barrel differences. If you want very heavy loads get a gas check bullet as others suggestd.

DP

[flint45]

I would shoot at least 200 rounds through that barrel and see how it performs then get it broke in.

[hpdrifter]

Shot some 22 grain of 4198 loads(250 grn pill) the other day, just barely traces of lead, more like little specks. Grouped ok. Velocity; 1285fps.

gonna try 24 grain of 4198 in the next few days, trying to get 1400 fps.

[yeahbub]

hpdrifter,

Have you considered paper patching for it? I know of a Marlin .375 Win which did okay with cast, but really shines with paper patched Lyman 375248's cast of wheel weights. They're patched with drafting vellum, lubed with home-made 541 and sized to .378. A charge of 28gr of AA1680 (pretty stout) and seating to the crimp groove gives an honest 2" at 100, even better if I pay attention. This is from a lapped barrel, now a consistent .377 end to end. No leading at all with PP and it'll help slick out that new rifling.

[mnewcomb59]

If you have bullets touching, I doubt you need a gas check. The proof is in the target. Since they're so expensive, I always try to find the limits of plain base bullets before trying gas checks.

My rossi 357 rifle with super slow 1 in 30" twist rate will stack plain based bullets at 1900 fps, and will do 3 MOA with a case full of Lil Gun at 2000 fps+.

Another possibility is to open up your case necks. It seems like maybe your chamber won't accept a big enough bullet, so you could gain 1 or 2 though in bullet diameter by turning case necks.

[Nobade]

hpdrifter,

Have you considered paper patching for it? I know of a Marlin .375 Win which did okay with cast, but really shines with paper patched Lyman 375248's cast of wheel weights. They're patched with drafting vellum, lubed with home-made 541 and sized to .378. A charge of 28gr of AA1680 (pretty stout) and seating to the crimp groove gives an honest 2" at 100, even better if I pay attention. This is from a lapped barrel, now a consistent .377 end to end. No leading at all with PP and it'll help slick out that new rifling.

I'll second that - my JES rebored rifle shoots its best with paper patched 9.3mm boolits as well. They start out at .367" and get patched to .378". Smokeless or black powder, it shoots amazingly small groups with no hint of leading. As a bonus, the more I shoot it the better the bore looks as the patches shine it up. I have loaded it up to better than 2100 fps (this is a 285gr. boolit) with smokeless just to see how it behaved, but normally run it with black powder, lightly duplexed, since it kicks a lot less and is more pleasant to shoot.

-Nobade

[KLR]

hpdrifter, I appreciate you giving your opinion about the rebore of your rifle - even it if doesn't agree with the majority consensus. I have no opinion to give about your rifle, but I know that after reading all the glowing reports about JES's rebores I'd expect the smoothest bore and crispest rifling I've ever seen and I'd be disappointed if I got something that needed 200 rounds of paper patched bullets to smooth out.

[TXGunNut]

Which boolit(s) are you using? Your chambering issues may have more to do with nose profile than boolit diameter.

[nekshot]

been following this with interest because I highly respect JES. I understand your frustrations but sometimes the product needs some tlc. I feel like I am the least to give advice but I usually hand lap a new barrel especially if from a lesser price company. If I am not happy after that I fire lap, and that has never disappointed me. About a year ago I purchased a product called sentry bore conditioner and that stuff works! I had a bunch of barrels to install over the past year and all I can say is I wish I knew of Sentry 30 years ago. I am sure you will find love for that gun!

[Tatume]

What does Sentry bore conditioner do?

[nekshot]

Tatume, the other year I was looking thru military armorers thoughts on new clean bores and this came up as the seals use it. It conditions the raw metal and makes everything slicker. My bores shined from Ben's Red before but after this treatment they took on a new shine that was not there before (that is on older barrels I tried to clean and treat). I have had better than normal succes with the new barrels I installed and then using the PC coating simply has been nothing short of miraculous. The name is Sentry Solutions, Smooth Kote. It also works well on triggers and sears.

[OuchHot!]

I do not (yet) have a JES rebore (soon will have a 38-55 in a m94) but what I see is a very cost effective product. It has to be cut rifling and I have found the need to "break-in" or burnish cut rifled barrels in the past. Some (very $$) vendors lap their cut rifled new barrels before sending them out. I think at this price level, JES is doing as good as we can probably expect. But again, I haven't sent my m94 off yet and may find different when I do. I know Danny Pederson and others will rebore but their price is near 2X and that puts me out of contention for a m94.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Mine should be done by tomorrow and back to me by next Monday/ Tuesday. I'll do a thorough assessment at that time and post the results on my Thread,,, " Next New Project."

I'll have less than a week and a half into this process and that alone is worth the money. Most outfits who do reboring want 3-6 months lead time,, which is ridiculous.

I am a highly skilled machinist and I assure you, that after talking to Jes, he knows exactly what he is doing and I have nothing but confidence that my project rifle will shoot well. We discussed barrel length, headspace, twist rates, boolit fit etc. and he answered all my questions without hesitation, which is the true test of someone who knows what they are talking about.

He has tons of experience doing this and has been advertising in Rifle Magazine for years.

Randy

[hpdrifter]

Which boolit(s) are you using? Your chambering issues may have more to do with nose profile than boolit diameter.
I have no chambering problems and the rifling is cleaning up a little, maybe more so over time.

[nekshot]

I have no chambering problems and the rifling is cleaning up a little, maybe more so over time.

I sense love rising in your heart for that rifle! Time spent chucking lead down that bore will turn into a real serious relationship between you and the gun that many will not understand!

[BrentD]

FWIW,
I had .32 spl rebored to .38-55 by JES. It was a little bit rough and leaded a little bit so I fire lapped and that made a small improvement in accuracy which was already satisfactory, but it really helped with clean up and the leading went to exactly zero. It worked well for me, so I recommend him highly.

[hpdrifter]

I sense love rising in your heart for that rifle! Time spent chucking lead down that bore will turn into a real serious relationship between you and the gun that many will not understand!
Maybe!! I'm warming up to it a bit.

[Geezer in NH]

Have you discussed this issue with JES? I think that would have been my first option as soon as I noticed what was happening. Give him a chance to make it right, and if he doesn't, report back to us.
Are you suggesting fault of the smith?

[hpdrifter]

My initial examination of the rifle was not what I expected and maybe a bit hasty in my report. Maybe my expectations were too high.

I'm warming up to the rifle now and it does seem to be getting better.

[Nobade]

Your experience mirrors mine. Kind of disappointed at first, but after shooting it for a while it really has slicked up and is amazingly accurate. Evidently he keeps the price reasonable by not doing any lapping after the barrel is cut. That's fine for me, I like being able to get a rebore so fast for so little money. A little break in is well worth it.

-Nobade

[TXGunNut]

I've never done any hand-lapping but I thought the initial bore finish of my JES rebored 35 Whelen was better than any other factory-finished bore I've fired with CB's. I'm basing this entirely on lack of leading and easy cleanup, not a bore scope or any other technical method. A few hundred rounds down the tube has made it even better, or so it seems to me.