8x57 Mauser with Lee C323471-175-1R

[Silverseas]

Retirement has given me the opportunityto progress from shooting factory loads in my Model 98 Mauser(Federal 170 grain) to casting and reloading my own bullets. My moldis a Lee C323471-175-1R that gives me 182 grains as cast and 185grwith the gas check. They measure .324 out of the Lee .323 sizer die ( some at .323 so mycaliper says). My bore slugs at .323.
I have shot 10 rounds at 50 yards withthe cast bullets and managed to hit a wine case most of the time andfelt very light recoil compared to the Federals. I have started with20.5 gr of IMR SR 4759 on the advise of my local gun shop. Now Ihave loaded 10 each increasing the charge by .5 grains up to 23 gr.
These shells continue to reside in myshooting bag while I wait for warmer weather, it was -16 F yesterdaymorning, but Spring is not far away.
Am I on the right track here to gettinginto reloading and casting? Reading this forum I realize I have alot to learn and many options to pursue. When I get a scope mountedI hope eventually to show creditable grouping out to 300 yards whichis the maximum distance at the local range. Or am I dreaming?
Anyway, thanks for the forum, I amfinding it enjoyable reading during this cold winter when getting tothe range is not very attractive.
Steve

[skeet1]

Steve,
Welcome. Yes you are on the right track and no you are not dreaming. You will find that to make you own bullets out of lead is a very appealing hobby. You should be able to shoot the 300 yards at you range with good success but don't get in a hurry, just enjoy it. If you are the kind of guy that like to learn and tinker with things, it may be one of the most enjoyable things you have done.

Ken

[pworley1]

Welcome, enjoy the process.

[Silverseas]

Thanks, Ken. I know about tinkering, I have been a ham radio operator for a few years.
I will update the forum when I have had an opportunity to shoot these loads.

[MBTcustom]

Sounds like a real fun project sir!
No, you're not dreaming, you canmake that rifle shoot all the way to 300 no problemo. Just don't try to hot rod it, use a good lube, fit your bullet correctly etc etc etc.
I wrote a sticky for new rifle casters that might help you achieve your goals.
Here tis:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?158805-Just-a-few-tips-for-new-rifle-casters
You should get all the help you need here at castboolits.com. When it comes to running cast in a mil-surp, we've got more than our fair share of experts.

[Silverseas]

Goodsteel, I have read the post you mention more than once. Thanks for putting that on the forum. Some of what you wrote I understand, and some I will need to study and practice more, like on doing a chamber cast. My doing a slug of the barrel went well, and I have tried soft lead to look at the breach end, but it did not show me much. More practice and following your instructions closely. I understand now the importance of getting the bullet size right, I just do not know how to get there for sure. I am looking forward to warmer weather so I can get out and try my loads.

[MBTcustom]

Here's another thread I wrote that may help you.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?269912-Consistency-applied

There are several things I can tell you about your rifle that may help you. First, the Mausers have a very fast twist barrel (1 in 9.45") which will limit the speed you can get (stay right around 1900 FPS)
Also, the reason your pound cast (I assume you read my sticky on that?) may not have told you much is because it would have to protrude the brass by nearly an inch to capture the throat of your rifle. Mauser's have a very long, gentle throat.
The main thing is that you figure out what is the largest diameter bullet you can cleanly engrave in that throat without scraping lead rings off.

Bullet designs you should take a hard look at are the Lovern style with many lube grooves. This has nothing to do with needing more lube, but it's more about getting that bullet to marry the rifling perfectly. Lovern style bullets are a one size fits all proposition because those lube grooves crush to the throat angle so easily.

[Silverseas]

Goodsteel,
9.45 twist, that is close to 9.5 I measured. So that will limit the velocity.....Is that only for cast bullets? Can the jacketed ones be pushed faster? I see some comments that 2700 fps is possible for the Mauser. I won't be doing that, just curious about casting. I have not tried the pound cast again. This weekend is expected to be warmer (+22) so I will be doing more work in the garage at the reloading bench with a pound cast on the todo list.
I am beginning to get the information on throat size now but your comment on Lovern style bullets are a mystery yet. Time to do more searching.
I have the Speer reloading manual, the Lyman Cast bullet handbook and tonight I am attending a reloading class at Superior Shooters Supply in Superior wisconsin. Plus I sent in my membership for the local range. Looking forward to warmer weather. Thanks, Tim, I just opened your other post.
Steve

[MBTcustom]

It is possible to shoot jacketed speeds with any caliber, provided you use one of the tricks described in the forum for doing so. I have been involved in the pursuit of "fast cast" for quite some time now and I build rifles specifically for that purpose.
There are two methods that are easily attainable IMHO.
Paper patched bullets is the easiest and certainly about as fun as it gets, and was the reason I joined this forum in 2011 (if you've never tried it, you really should. It's a blast!!!). It's cheap but time consuming.
The other method is to rebarrel to a common cartridge and use a slow twist barrel (14 twist is an excellent option for 30-35 caliber) but requires an outlay of money. A slightly different twist on this same theme is to send the rifle to JES reborring and have it rifled in a larger caliber in a suitable twist rate.

The problem is that a standard cast bullet gets twisted in a fast twist barrel such as you have there. The faster the twist the worse the bullet is deformed at launch (I believe this is due to the inertia of the bullet getting twisted like a dish rag from the sudden shock of one part being required to twist suddenly while the other lags behind) and the fact that it's leaving the barrel at high RPM exacerbates the accuracy problems, because as the bullet is gyrating trying to equalize the base and the nose, the RPM takes advantage of that and causes your bullets to spray the target like they were shot from an improved cylinder.
Some have even reported long bullets snapping in half in mid air due to this twisting effect.
There are some who are attempting to minimize the gyration as the bullet leaves the barrel by using an alloy that is much more malleable, so that it takes a set in the twisted position which reduces the twisting action of the bullet on it's way to the target, and they have enjoyed a measure of success.

Using a paper jacket effectively cushions the engraving process and allows the bullet to come up to RPM in that critical first inch of rifling without becoming twisted and stressed. Because a balanced bullet is leaving your barrel and not trying to snap back into shape in mid air, you are able to shoot it at high RPM with no detrimental effect on accuracy.


Using a slow twist barrel is a double benefit. First, because the riflings are at a gentler angle, the bullet does not get twisted into a contorted condition and therefore is able to be sent cleanly through the air to the target without giving the RPM something to work on. Secondly, because it's a slower twist, there are less centrifugal force in play to have a negative effect on the projectile even if it were gyrating slightly (which I am sure it is, just less so than with the faster twist).

Regardless, in order to shoot your rifle with accuracy using a standard bullet in a standard twist, you should use a good bullet that compliments your throat (neither a bore rider, nor a bullet that engraves suddenly on the nose. You want a bullet design where the first thing the rifling grabs is in the 3rd forward quarter of the bullet, and there are lots of options out there for that), a good lube (I highly recommend White Label 2500+), and keep your speed below 1900fps, and use good quality brass.

[Silverseas]

Tim, I pounded three separate slugs today cast from fishing weights for a look at the throat and chamber. I will post pictures of them later after I do some editing on them. I used a steel rod and protected the bore with a bit of tape.
I could see the taper off the end of the shell.
I found it peculiar that when I was done the slug was larger in diameter at the nose then just in front of the first lube groove; .323 vs .319 and the end (.2") was more swaged looking (shinny). The rifling barely shows a mark on the bullet, but a slug I run through the bore has well defined rifling.
I thumped the rod 100 times with a three pound lead mallet, not real hard, just lifting it and letting it drop about 4 inches. Maybe I need to pound harder or longer.

[MBTcustom]

Tim, I pounded three separate slugs today cast from fishing weights for a look at the throat and chamber. I will post pictures of them later after I do some editing on them. I used a steel rod and protected the bore with a bit of tape.

Couldn't have done it any better myself.

I could see the taper off the end of the shell.
Excellent

I found it peculiar that when I was done the slug was larger in diameter at the nose then just in front of the first lube groove; .323 vs .319 and the end (.2") was more swaged looking (shinny). The rifling barely shows a mark on the bullet, but a slug I run through the bore has well defined rifling.
This is probably because your slug was obturating just below the tip of the punch rod, and preventing the energy from being thrown deeper to obturate the lower portion. This is the reason I recommend giving light blows with a heavy hammer. The follow through you get with a big hammer carries the energy deep into the slug. For instance, if you did this with a tack hammer, the slug is going to act like a rivet and only the very front of the slug will bump up.
That said, sometimes this is a problem no matter what, and in order to get around it, I pull the chamber slug out and use a file to dress off the forward diameter, slip it back in the rifle and hit it again. Often I will do this three times before I get a slug I feel I can trust.


I thumped the rod 100 times with a three pound lead mallet, not real hard, just lifting it and letting it drop about 4 inches. Maybe I need to pound harder or longer.
You need a 2lb iron sledge, and ten firm strokes should do it. By using a lead mallet, a good portion of the energy was being absorbed by the hammer itself. If material in the hammer is moving, that means that material in the slug is not.
You need to look at this in a different way. What if I told you to take a soft lead bullet and smash it out into the size of a penny in ten light strokes? Would you use a lead hammer to do that? Would you use a standard claw hammer? I think you would select a 2lb sledge if given the choice right? Same thing here. You're trying to bump that slug up hard enough to take a perfect impression of the barrel, but not hard enough to damage the barrel or the steel rod.

[Silverseas]

Here is the photo of the slug. 8x57 Mauser.
http://i1117.photobucket.com/albums/k599/kd0etc/Mod%2098%20Mauser/F0F6B6E4-4B41-4AF6-BDF1-C376DA88268B_zpsoetztsbf.jpg (http://s1117.photobucket.com/user/kd0etc/media/Mod%2098%20Mauser/F0F6B6E4-4B41-4AF6-BDF1-C376DA88268B_zpsoetztsbf.jpg.html)

I do have a small sledge and will use it next time. 10 thumps is better than a 100. I was worried that to get the full impression I would need to whack it 300 times.
I would like to do this with a bullet that does not have lube grooves.

[MBTcustom]

Check this out:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?218414-FYI-This-is-how-I-do-a-pound-cast
I explain how to do exactly what you are wanting from post #67 on.

[Geezer in NH]

Cerrosave is easier for me and cheap